Chapter Sixteen
A FLAMING SWORD AND THE SUDARSHAN CAKRA
DEVOTEE: The Vedas inform us of the Sudarshan Cakra, a
manifestation of the Lord's spiritual potency which acts in different
capacities according to the Lord's desire. Generally the Sudarshan Cakra
appears as a weapon like a discus with a razor sharp edge that may also exhibit
intolerable heat. In his prayers to the Sudarshan Cakra, Ambarisa Maharäja
said, "O master of speech, by your effulgence, full of religious
principles, the darkness of the world is dissipated, and the knowledge of
learned persons or great souls is manifested. Indeed, no one can surpass your
effulgence, for all things, manifested and unmanifested, gross and subtle,
superior and inferior, are but various forms of you that are manifested by your
effulgence. [Bhag. 9.5.7] One of the functions of the Sudarshan Cakra is to
chastise the demons, but another is to uplift the consciousness of the living
beings. Do the Jewish scriptures give any information about a weapon of the
nature of Sudarshan Cakra?
RABBI: There is one verse in the Torah, after God banished
Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden. It is said, "He drove away the man,
and stationed the cherubim (angel of destruction) at the east of Eden, along
with the revolving sword blade, to guard the path of the Tree of Life."
[Torah, Genesis, Bereshith 3:24] "Man is told that he must eventually die
and is banished from paradise. He can only return to paradise after death, and
before doing so, he must pass by these angels of purgatory (Bachya). The
prophet must also pass these angels to approach the Tree of Life." [Torah,
Note: 3:24]
Regarding the revolving sword or flaming sword that
revolves, it is said "the manner in which the sword rotates depends on the
readiness of the individual attempting to enter. If he is worthy, it becomes
the mirror through which he perceives, while if he is not worthy, he is burned
out and cut off by the fire of this sword. The one who oversees the sword,
preventing the unworthy from entering, is the angel Metatron." [Meditation
and Kabbalah p 80 Chapter 4, Teachings of Rabbi Abraham Abulafia]
DEVOTEE: There is a long history in the Vedas in which the
Sudarshan Cakra functioned both to punish a demon and to ultimately enlighten
him. Very briefly, one day, the great mystic Brahman Durvasa Muni came to visit
Ambarisa Maharäja at his palace. The king was eager to serve Durvasa royally.
While Durvasa took his bath, the king, not wanting to eat before his guest, but
obligated to break his religious fast, took only a little water. Durvasa
understood that Ambarisa Maharäja had drunk water and felt unlimitedly offended
that the king had eaten before him. Due to extreme anger, Durvasa created a
fiery demon to kill the king, but the Lord's Sudarshan Cakra immediately came
and killed the demon. Then, the cakra started chasing Durvasa Muni all over the
universe until finally the sage approached the Supreme Lord Himself for
protection. The Lord refused him protection and sent him back to Ambarisa
Maharäja to seek forgiveness for his offenses to the king. At the humble
request of the king, the Sudarñana Cakra ceased pursuing Durvasa. After this
incident, Ambarisa Maharäja sumptuously fed Durvasa Muni and they became very
good friends. By the grace of the Sudarshan Cakra, Durvasa Muni was enlightened
as to the exalted spiritual position of the king. Thus, the Sudarshan Cakra
simultaneously punished Durvasa and enlightened him.
RABBI: Do the Vedas describe any other functions of the
Sudarshan Cakra?
DEVOTEE: It is also said, "You [Sudarshan Cakra] are
the original vision of the Lord, and therefore you are known as Sudarshan.
Everything has been created by your activities, and therefore you are all-
pervading." In his explanation to this verse, His Divine Grace A.C.
Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada says, "The word Sudarshan means auspicious
vision. From Vedic instructions we understand that this material world is
created by the glance of the Supreme Personality of Godhead (sa aikñata, sa
asåjata). The Supreme Personality of Godhead glanced over the mahat-tattva, or
the total material energy, and when it was agitated, everything came into
existence. Western philosophers sometimes think that the original cause of
creation was a chunk that exploded. If one thinks of this chunk as the total
material energy, the mahat-tattva, one can understand that the chunk was agitated
by the glance of the Lord, and thus the Lord's glance is the original cause of
material creation." [Bhag. 9.5.5 Purport]
RABBI: There is a statement in the Zohar that "When God
was about to create the world, He produced a secret spark from which there
issued and radiated all the lights, which constitute the upper world. Then it
continued its radiation, and the Arificer made it into a light without
brightness, and thus He made the lower world. [Zohar II, 156b]
DEVOTEE: After Durvasa Muni begged forgiveness from Ambarisa
Maharäja, the king offered prayers to Sudarshan Cakra. He said, "O master
of speech, by your effulgence, full of religious principles, the darkness of
the world is dissipated, and the knowledge of learned persons or great souls is
manifested. Indeed, no one can surpass your effulgence, for all things,
manifested and unmanifested, gross and subtle, superior and inferior, are but
various forms of you that are manifested by your effulgence." In his
explanation, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada said,
"Without illumination, nothing can be seen, especially in this material
world. The illumination in this world emanates from the effulgence of
Sudarshan, the original vision of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The
illuminating principles of the sun, the moon and fire emanate from Sudarshan.
Similarly, illumination by knowledge also comes from Sudarshan." [Bhag.
9.5.7, Purport]
Chapter Seventeen
THE LORD'S BODILY (BRAHMAN) EFFULGENCE
DEVOTEE: Rabbi, earlier we discussed that God has an eternal
personal identity. But the Vedas also speak of an impersonal aspect of God,
which is actually the effulgence from His body. That effulgence, the
brahmajyoti, is ultimately the source of all illumination. The brahmajyoti
diffuses light from the transcendental body of the Lord, and the same light is
reflected in many varieties: the light of the sun, the light of the moon, the
light of fire, or the light of electricity. [Bhag. 2.9.34 Purport] Do the
Jewish scriptures give any information of an effulgence coming from God and how
it illuminates everything?
RABBI: There is one verse in the Zohar: "The Most
Recondite is beyond cognition, but reveals of Himself a tenuous and veiled
brightness shining only along a narrow path which extends from Him, and this is
the brightness that irradiates all. This is the starting point of all esoteric
mysteries, itself being unknowable." [Zohar IV 146b]
DEVOTEE: The verse you just quoted form the Zohar indicates
that there
is a higher understanding of God than "the brightness that
irradiates all." The Vedas emphatically conclude the same. "The
Absolute Truth (God) is realized in three phases of understanding by the knower
of the Absolute Truth, and all of them are identical. Such phases of the Absolute
Truth are expressed as Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavän." [Bhag.1.2.11]
Brahman refers to the impersonal all-pervasive spirit. That is the same as the
brahmajyoti, the effulgence of the Lord. Paramatma realization means to realize
the localized aspect of the Lord as He is situated in the heart of every living
being. And the highest realization of the Absolute Truth is Bhagavän, the
Supreme Personality of Godhead, Who is full in all opulences.
RABBI: I am a little confused of your explanation a few
moments ago. You told me that according to the Vedic version, the brahmajyoti
was the source of illumination for the sun, the moon and fire. But previously
you said that the Sudarshan Cakra was the illuminating principles of the sun,
the moon and fire. Why do the Vedas give such contradictory information?
DEVOTEE: There is no contradiction at all, for since the
Lord is Absolute, all apparent contradictions can be rectified within Him.
Sudarshan is the glance of the Lord, and the Brahmajyoti is the effulgence of
the Lord. The Lord has the ability to perform any function with any part of His
body. According to the Brahma-samhita, the body of the Supreme Personality of
Godhead can enjoy anything and do everything with any of His limbs. On the
absolute platform, the Lord's name, fame, form, pastimes, effulgence and glance
are all on an equal level. Just like when we chant the Lord's names He is
present with all of His potencies. When we speak about His pastimes and
activities, He is also present with all of His potencies. Similarly, the
effulgence of the Lord or the glance of the Lord contains all of His potencies
and thus both can perform the same functions. Since we only have experience
within the material atmosphere, it is difficult to comprehend spiritual principles
that are fully outside of our experience.
Chapter Eighteen
The Oral and Written Traditions of the Torah and the Vedas
Or
The Black and White Hidden Mysteries Of the Torah and Vedas
DEVOTEE: The Vedas have an oral and a written tradition.
Originally they were handed down from guru to disciple orally. Five thousand
years ago the Vedas were compiled by Srila Vyäsadeva in Sanskrit for the
benefit of mankind. Do the Jewish scriptures also have oral and written
traditions?
RABBI: Yes. There are both oral and written traditions of
the Torah. First it existed in oral form and later as the written Torah. It is
said, "It [the written Torah] is explicitly mentioned in section 99 [of
the Bahir] as the light that nourishes the lamp of the oral Torah: "Such
is the oral Torah: although it is a lamp it has need of the written Torah in
order to resolve its difficulties and explain its mysteries." [Origins of
the Kabbalah, page 145] Were the written Vedas required to help understand the oral
tradition?
DEVOTEE: In this age, Kali-yuga, people are generally less
intelligent than in previous ages. That is why Srila Vyäsadeva gave us the
Vedas in written form about five thousand years ago. He divided the Vedas into
sections and expanded on them so that they would be easier to understand. In
former ages, people in general had keen memories, having heard the Vedic
instructions once from their spiritual master, they would perfectly understand
and remember them for the rest of their lives. There was no need for written
words.
RABBI: It is said, "And thus the written Torah cannot
adopt corporeal form, except through the power of the oral Torah: that is, that
the former cannot be truly understood without the latter, just as the mode of
divine Mercy can only be grasped and perceived through the mode of
Judgment." [Origins of the Kabbalah, page 288]
DEVOTEE: This verse seems to say that one cannot understand
the written Torah without the help of the oral Torah. Yet a few minutes ago,
you quoted a verse that seemed to indicate the opposite - that to understand
the mysteries of the oral Torah, one must take the help of the written Torah.
Can you explain this apparent contradiction?
RABBI: As I understand it, the written Torah is required to
fully understand the oral Torah, another aspect of the oral Torah is the
rabbi's personal teachings, using the written Torah as a guide, the realized
rabbi teaches the qualified student its inner meanings. This is especially
important when the rabbi is teaching, not only the part of the Torah known to
the Christians as the Old Testament, but especially the more complex expanded
body of Jewish religious law, including the Bahir, the Talmud, the Zohar, and
the Sefer Yetzirah. The Zohar itself is composed of innumerable discourses, which
expand on the verses of the Torah. In this way, the oral tradition is
continuing and assisting in the understanding of the written Torah, and with
that understanding there is no contradiction at all between the two verses I
have quoted.
DEVOTEE: Thank you for your explanation, Rabbi. Exactly the
same principle holds true regarding the Vedas. By including the bona fide
commentaries on the already existing Vedas, the Vedas are being expanded. Veda
means knowledge. As Srila Vyäsadeva has divided and expanded the original Vedas
to make them easier to understand, the various representatives of Srila
Vyäsadeva are also writing commentaries on his works, toward the same end. The
most recent representative of Srila Vyäsadeva is His Divine Grace A.C.
Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, whose translations and commentaries on the
Vedas I have quoted many times in our discussions.
RABBI: It is said, "First, God took two names. The
first became the great fire or the sefirah geburah, while the other unfolded to
become the 'form of the written Torah, which is the color of white fire.' It
corresponds to the sefirah of the divine Mercy, or tif'ereth. The lowest
sefirah, on the other hand, contains, by virtue of its correspondence to the
action of divine judgment in the world, the oral Torah, which is black fire
burning upon an underlayer of white fire." [Origins of the Kabbalah, Page
288] Is there anything in the Vedas that seems to correspond with this
statement?
DEVOTEE: According to the Vedas, the original name of God is
Krsna, and the name of His first expansion is Balaräma. Lord Krsna appears
blackish in color (and is the hidden secret of the Vedas), and Lord Balaräma
appears whitish. Lord Balaräma is known as the original spiritual master (one
who reveals the hidden knowledge of God), as is Srila Vyäsadeva who compiled
the Vedic literatures. It is with the help of Lord Balaräma or Srila Vyäsadeva,
or their bona fide representatives that the Vedas can be understood. It was
Srila Vyäsadeva who actually compiled the Vedas in written form, and he is
ultimately a representative of Lord Balaräma who is the source of the Vedic
oral tradition.