Chapter Thirteen
THE LORD'S FORMS AND INCARNATIONS
DEVOTEE: The Vedic scriptures give voluminous information
about various incarnations of the Lord, describing their names, activities,
color, appearance and so on. For example, Lord Caitanya Mahäprabhu's future
appearance was so described: "When Gargamuni was performing the
name-giving ceremony for Krsna and knowing of the future appearance of Lord
Caitanya, he predicted, "This boy Krsna has three other colors-white, red,
and yellow as He appears in the different ages. Now He has appeared in a
transcendental blackish color." [Cc. Adi 3.35,36] Lord Krsna had
previously appeared in the colors of red and white, and He would later appear
in the color yellow as Lord Caitanya Mahäprabhu. Are there any similar
descriptions in the Jewish scriptures?
RABBI: Yes, although I do not know of any descriptions of
the activities of God given in as much detail as you describe from the Vedas,
there are some references to His colors. In the Zohar, R. Eleazar says,
"It is written, 'And he brought me thither, and behold, there was a man,
whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a line of flax in his
hand, and a measuring reed; [Ezek. XL, 3] "Ezekiel saw in this prophetical
vision a 'man' but not 'a man clothed in linen' [Dan. X, 5]. for it is only
when the angel is on an errand of severity that he is called 'a man clothed in
linen'. Otherwise, he assumes various guises, appears in various attire
conforming to the message he bears at that time. Now, in the present vision
'his appearance was like the appearance of brass.'
God appeared to Moses and his followers on Mount Sinai in
the form a burning bush. According to R. Abba, "When the smoke came out of
Mount Sinai a fire ascended enveloped therein, so that its flames were of a
blue color. They flared high and dwindled again, and the smoke emitted all the
aromas of Paradise, displaying itself in the colors of white, red, and black,
as it says..." Perhaps these colors can be related to the same colors of
God as mentioned in the Vedas.
DEVOTEE: The Jewish scriptures are very difficult for me to
understand with so much written allegorically. The Vedas are very direct and to
the point. It is described in the Vedas that although there are many different
incarnations of the Lord appearing throughout the ages of universal time, the
appearance of Lord Krsna includes within it all the other incarnations.
His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada says,
" All the incarnations of the Lord, including the Lord Himself, descend on
the different planets of the material world as also in different species of
life to fulfill particular missions. Sometimes He comes Himself and sometimes
His different plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions or His
differentiated portions directly or indirectly empowered by Him, descend on this
material world to execute certain specific functions. Originally the Lord is
full of all opulences, all prowess, all fame, all beauty, all knowledge and all
renunciation. When they are partly manifested through the plenary portions or
parts of the plenary portions, it should be noted that certain manifestations
of His different powers are required for those particular functions. When in
the room small electric bulbs are displayed, it does not mean that the electric
powerhouse is limited by the small bulbs. The same powerhouse can supply power
to operate large-scale industrial dynamos with greater volts. Similarly, the
incarnations of the Lord display limited powers because so much power is needed
at that particular time. [Bhag. 1:3:28, Purport]
Chapter Fourteen
THE DEVASTATING FLOOD
RABBI: The Torah describes a devastating flood brought by
God to destroy the sinful persons of the world who had refused to follow His
laws. It is said by God to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before Me.
The world is filled with (man's) crime. I will therefore destroy them with the
earth. Make yourself an ark of cypress wood. Divide the ark into compartments.
Caulk the inside and outside with pitch and for I Myself am bringing the flood.
Water shall be on the earth to destroy from under the heavens all flesh having
in it a breath of life. All that is on land will die. But I will keep My pledge
that you will come into the ark. You will be together with your sons, your
wife, and your sons' wives." [Torah, Genesis, Noah 25.13-18] In the Vedic
philosophy are there any descriptions of a devastating flood like this?
DEVOTEE: Yes. According to the Vedas, there was not only one
great flood, but there are thousands of them throughout the existence of the
universe, they normally start at the beginning of Lord Brahma's night.
RABBI: Do the Vedas describe any personality like Noah being
saved from the devastation?
DEVOTEE: The Bhagavat Purana or Srimad-Bhagavatam gives a
description of an inundation that occurred many millions of years ago in
connection with the Matsya avatar, the Lord's fish incarnation. Briefly, there
was a king who was a great devotee of the Supreme Lord, and the Lord chose to
show him some special favor. Like Noah, King Satyavrata was forewarned about a
universal devastation. In this history, there was also a large boat, which was
sent by the Supreme Lord to King Satyavrata. The Supreme Personality of Godhead
said: "O King who can subdue your enemies, on the seventh day from today
the three worlds-Bhuh, Bhuvaù and Svaù-will all merge into the water of
inundation. When all the three worlds merge into the water, a large boat sent
by Me will appear before you. Thereafter, O King, you shall collect all types
of herbs and seeds and load them on that great boat. Then, accompanied by the
seven sages and surrounded by all kinds of living entities, you shall get
aboard that boat, and without moroseness you shall easily travel with your
companions on the ocean of inundation, the only illumination being the effulgence
of the great sages." [Bhag 8.24.32-35]
RABBI: We have been discussing many similarities between the
Jewish and Hindu theologies. Considering that the passage of time and the
development of various cultures can lead to variations in historical accounts,
perhaps both of these descriptions refer to the same event. In both accounts, a
God conscious personality, accompanied by other spiritually elevated persons,
and plants and animals of various species, all take shelter of a large boat or
ark to be saved from a great inundation. But I am concerned that these two
descriptions appear to have taken place at times in history at least tens of
millions of years apart. Do you have any thoughts in that regard?
DEVOTEE: It is quite possible that the Vedic description
described in the Srimad Bhagavatam is a different incident than the history of
Noah's ark described in the Torah. As I mentioned earlier, the Vedas give
information of innumerable inundations during the existence of the universe. I
think that the most important consideration is not whether these two particular
histories are exactly the same, but to understand their similar purposes and
the way the Lord reciprocates with His devotees. The Lord promised Noah that He
would protect Him and the others who boarded the ark. Noah was obviously a very
godly person so the Lord was protecting His devotee servant Noah and his family
while annihilating the sinful people of the world. Similarly, while the Lord
arranged for a gigantic inundation during the time of King Satyavrata, He gave
protection to the king and other saintly persons with him. In the
Bhagavad-gita, Lord Krsna says, "Whenever and wherever there is a decline
in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of
irreligion, at that time I descend Myself. To deliver the pious and to
annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of
religion, I Myself appear, millennium after millennium." [Bg. 4.7-8]
RABBI: A few minutes ago, you mentioned something that
seemed very unusual. You mentioned a fish incarnation of God called Matsya
avatar. Are you suggesting that God appeared as a fish? We discussed earlier
that man may take his birth in a lower species of life, but why would God come
like that?
DEVOTEE: The Vedas explain that part of the greatness of the
Lord is that He is always transcendental. When a soul who has a human body
misuses that valuable human form he may take his next birth as an animal. When
he has that animal form, he is forced to remain in very low consciousness. On
the other hand, when God appears in an animal form, He retains all the
unlimited power and abilities of God. He is not reduced in any way. He
sometimes appears in an animal form by His Own will to perform a particular
activity. In the case of the fish incarnation, He appeared to protect King
Satyavrata during the great universal inundation since a fish is a naturally
expert swimmer. If He so desired, He could have appeared in any form to
accomplish the same feat.
RABBI: Although the form of God is not described in the
Torah in connection with the great flood, I can understand that He was actually
present. It is significant that He chose to give protection to His pure
servant, Noah and his family while killing everyone else on earth. God did not
need to use a flood to kill all the sinful people. He could have accomplished
that within a moment by any means.
DEVOTEE: That is also confirmed by the Lord in the
Bhagavad-gita: "All of them as they surrender unto Me I reward
accordingly. Everyone follows My path in all respects, O son of Prithä."
[Bg. 4.11]
Chapter Fifteen
METATRON AND MAHA-VISHNU
RABBI: It is said that a personality named Metatron
cooperates with God to teach the young. While God devotes the last three hours
of the day to this work, Metatron is in charge during the remainder of the day.
(A.Z. 3b) [Everyman's Talmud, II, III] Do the Vedas give any information about
such a personality?
DEVOTEE: The Vedas inform us of one plenary expansion of
Lord Krsna named Mahä-Vishnu. In the creative process, it is from Mahä-Vishnu
that all of the universes emanate, and within those universes that the living
entities, like us, are struggling for existence. The purpose of this world is
ultimately to help the envious living entities to become detached from the
desire for material enjoyment and to revive their love for God. Through His
creative functions, Mahä-Vishnu actually teaches the "young"
detachment from material life and attachment towards the Lord's loving
devotional service.
RABBI: I do not understand. According to the Vedas, can you
explain further how exactly is it that Mahä-Vishnu is cooperating with God to
teach the young?
DEVOTEE: As we had discussed before, the Vedas clearly teach
that we are not the material body but the soul within. Young and old in this
connection have nothing to do with the age of the body, because the soul is
eternal and unchanging. "The young" refers to almost all living
entities in the material world in any species of life. We are considered young
in realization of God until we have developed love for God. Mahä-Vishnu helps
to teach the "young" to become detached from the desire to enjoy this
world separately from the Lord's service, and to simultaneously help them to
revive their love for Lord Krsna. He does this by creating all the material
universes, within which the living entities are struggling hard for material
existence. As we struggle in ignorance to find some enjoyment, we gradually
become frustrated. In our frustration we naturally become a little detached
from material existence, and the Lord in the heart, an expansion of Mahä-Vishnu
known as Ksirodakasayi Vishnu, directs us from within to search out a bona fide
guru. The guru then teaches his submissive disciples the spiritual process to
revive their natural love for God. In this way, Mahä-Vishnu cooperates with the
God (Lord Krsna) to teach the young.
Actually, Mahä-Vishnu is another form of God, but whereas
the original personality of Godhead, Lord Krsna, spends His time enjoying with
His pure devotees in the spiritual world, so His expansions like Mahä-Vishnu,
work directly to help the living entities to develop detachment from material
enjoyment and attachment to Lord Krsna. Those forms of Vishnu known as the
Puruña incarnations, namely Mahä-Visnu, Garbhodakasayi Vishnu, and
Ksirodakasayi Vishnu, all function within this world to teach the young and
spiritually immature to mature in their realization of God. There is really no
difference between these three forms of Vishnu except the functions they
perform and the way that they may change Their forms to perform those
functions.
RABBI: Your explanation of Mahä-Vishnu and His expansions is
interesting. This seems to corroborate a statement found about Metatron in
Origins of the Kabbalah where it is said, "Metatron is therefore not a
proper name at all but a designation for the whole category of celestial powers
performing a mission."[Origins of the Kabbalah, III, 6]