11/23/2005
"Over the months of September and October, HH Danavir Goswami and I were engaged in a series of discussions on the subject of ISKCON's re-initiation policy and guru tattva, in general. For those interested in revisiting the entire thread, the editorials were as follows:" Read full article.
Replies: 164 Comments
Posted by Jahnava @ 12/09/2005 02:37 PM PST
The "It's Taboo, Prabhu" blog thread has grown into a towering mountain of ideas. While we don't want to discourage the continuation of this discussion, we don't want the blog software to topple over and crash. So, this thread has been closed, and a fresh thread opened, "It's Taboo -- Part II".
Posted by Pat @ 12/09/2005 02:14 PM PST
Dear Mark,
You said: You are obviously new to this sort of thing. Your broad blanket statements and hypocrisy speaks for itself to the discerning reader. So with all the humility I can muster in the face of your cheap shot, go back to school.
Sheesh!
Please do not try to silence me. It won’t work. You don’t scare me either. I have firm conviction that I am on the right path working within Iskcon (warts and all). Therefore, with all sincerity, I feel the protection of Krsna.
You said that you belonged to an underground movement in America which does battle with the government or the “so called Illuminati” - or whoever they are supposed to be. You mentioned how you lost comrades to death in this endeavour. Now you say that you are prepared to transform these efforts to do battle against the devotees serving within Iskcon. This all sounds dangerous and scary. If you belong to the IRM, then I have some experience of your confrontational and intimidating method of operation. You are wasting your time. Krsna is in control.
And which school should I go back to - the IRM brainwashing school?
Your servant
PatPosted by shiva das @ 12/09/2005 01:16 PM PST
bb das you forgot to include that quote within it's context, here is the previous paragraphs from what you quoted:
There is a tendency in many devotees to take a somewhat similar tact as you suggest whenever they "preach". I see it in lectures by swamis and from common devotees all of the time. They "preach" almost exclusively about the "dangers" of the material world and how being a devotee is the only safe harbor, usually hardly mentioning Krishna or Bhagavat philosophy other then as something to be faithful towards.
They preach about negatives. Their so called preaching is based on and revolves around fear inducement rather then enlightening Bhagavat philosophy. Whatever happened to speaking the message of the Gita? Recently I started to check out online audio lectures from various swamis and Iskcon leaders. Almost everyone was preaching the same exact message. They were all speaking about the dangers of bad association, the dangers of not serving Krishna, the dangers of the material world, the danger of not remaining in Iskcon, the horrors of the current world situation etc. They focused almost entirely on fear enducement rather then on comprehensive Bhagavat philosophy
And then I also added:Pragosh Das you have misunderstood what I have written. I didn't say that I "receive nourishment" from speakers from the Gaudiya Math, in fact I don't read or hear from them unless I come across something by them by chance on the internet or if I am searching for a particular vision that they have on a particular topic so that I can be acquainted with their philosophical vision. I have read and heard from them to a small extent because of that. I wrote this earlier:
(the quote from bb das)
That has been a common occurence for me i.e ex Iskcon bhaktas telling me that they have found a true source of inspiration and "nectar" from a Gaudiya Math guru which they found lacking in Iskcon. I have been told repeatedly that what passes for Bhagavat pravachan in Iskcon on a day to day basis is very uninspiring, unenlightening and geared towards inducing fear in the devotees so as to keep them compliant and fearfull of leaving Iskcon.
I don't know how many times I have heard from ex Iskcon bhaktas of the distrubing traumatic experiences they had when they left Iskcon. The common complaint was that they felt full of fear and anxiety about their spiritual position in life, often they say it took years for them to become well adjusted individuals.
In my opinion this is due to the constant repetition of fear inducing classes. It becomes drilled into peoples heads that outside of Iskcon there is a great monster licking it's chops ready to devour them and turn them into drug addicted sexual deviants and their lives are going to end up going down the drain for millions of lifetimes.
bb das thanks for the opportunity to get out the word, but do you think it's proper to change the subject in a thread in order to try and make some kind of ad hominem statement? It clutters up threads if you start to go way off the topics being discussed, just a thought.
As to why I won't reply to your others repetitious points, I've decided that if you don't think that what I've already said to you is enough, I can live with that.Posted by bb das @ 12/09/2005 12:11 PM PST
Haribol Mark,
It looks like your the only one "fully alligned". I am sorry for not recognizing that sooner.
I miss understood, I thought those who are following the 4 regs and chanting sixteen rounds daily trying to give up offenses and preaching day and night to as many sincere souls as possible to surrender to Krsna was fully aligned with the Vision of Srila Prabhupada.
I guess I have not really figured it all out.
ys
bb dasPosted by Mark @ 12/09/2005 11:49 AM PST
Dear Praghosa Das,
I apologize for offending your sensibility of decorum. And you are correct as well.
By way of explanation, I never met Srila Prabhupada in the flesh, and all I ever did was try to follow his instructions and get impeded by many of his so called disciples.
When he appeared in that dream I felt some intimacy toward him, because there was some affection shown toward me. Whether it was him or Chaitya Guru's magic, which we now know could Both be possible, the affection was still there.
This was reflected in my sweetly remembering my only encounter of this nature by referring to him as Swamiji. So much for my perfect etiquette. Are you really concerned for my advancement by pointing this out, or are you just nitpicking?
And to BB Das,
you recently tried to refresh my memory, in defense of your libelous remark, by saying,
Just to refresh Bhakta Mark about his Own statement;
Mark wrote:
"BB Das has not in my opinion grasped that it is indeed possible that within what he calls Iskcon, there are no people left who are fully aligned with the spirit of what Srila Prabhupdada envisioned Iskcon to be."
Let me refresh your memory as to what you said, and then you can see how different the two are.
"It’s quite presumptuous to make the claim that there are no qualified and sincere devotees serving within Iskcon."
For anyone else who is either slightly unaware of the definitions of the words involved, or who has the same agenda of selective ignorance, let's compare...
"no people left who are FULLY ALIGNED with the spirit of what Srila Prabhupada envisioned for Iskcon"
versus
"there are no qualified and sincere devotees serving within Iskcon."
Is it possible to be sincere, and have some level of devotional qualification, and yet be not Fully aligned with Srila Prabhupada's vision? Of course!
I have stated many times that one of my goals is to PROTECT the sincere and devotional who still serve within an institutional structure that has been DIVORCED from the Founder's vision due to rascal leadership.
I really wish that you, BB Das, were able to display the same qualities of sincerity and humility you once claimed you saw in me when I received correction at your hand, by admitting your mistake. I know you got it in you.
Libelous Defamation does not become you.
Hare Krishna
y.s.
MarkPosted by bb das @ 12/09/2005 10:19 AM PST
Here is one of many speculative generalization from the past from our Siva das;
"No wonder so many people leave Iskcon to follow other Gurus from the Gaudiya Math. The Gaudiya Math gurus speak philosophy, they speak about the various deep philosophical discourses from the Bhagavatam and from the Gita and from Sri Caitanya Caritamrta.
You almost never hear the hacknayed fear enducing dribble that passes as Bhagavat discourse in Iskcon from those gurus.
When many Iskcon devotees first start to hear Gaudiya Math gurus give discourses, they almost always see the big difference in presentation. They always tell me about "the nectar" that the guru is presenting which they cannot find in Iskcon."
Rocan are you singing from this same song book?
Here is what we're protecting sincere Iskcon devotees from!
ys
bb dasPosted by praghosa das @ 12/09/2005 08:14 AM PST
Hello Maharaja,
Thank you for your comments.
No one can say that "Krsna cannot do this". Or "Krsna cannot do that". Krsna is "swarat" independent and this is one of the unique features that demonstrates that He is God!
However - anyone can claim this or that. "Prabhupada has told me this. Prabhupada has told me that. Prabhupada appeared to me and ordered me to do this." They may even believe it to be reality and indeed - because Krsna can do anything - he can act through anyone or anything - and demonstrate His independence and full potency - by directly communicating with anyone through his pure devotee. Discussing what "could" be possible - or "can" be experienced - given that Lord Krsna can do anything is always enlivening. We marvel at Mahaprabhu's chasing away the clouds that threatened to disrupt his samkirtan, or His planting a mango pit and instantly producing the sweetest, juciest mangoes in all the three worlds! We recount how the Lord changed the course of history in a mere 18 days at Kuruksetra or Madhavendra Puri arranged a fabulous Anna Kuta in 1 Day! Yes Krsna CAN do anything and does! And if He likes He can order his empowered Representative to intervene in the life or lives of his devotees!
This "can" be done.
However this is not how Srila Prabhupada's "presence" is primarily given. Dreams and visions etc - cannot be called upon to authenticate the management of Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON mission. His teachings and instructions were given us by His Divine Grace to ensure that this samkirtan mission is always founded upon solid "scientific" Knowledge that is sastrically verifiable and blessed by the guidance of our unblemished Parampara.
If anyone studies carefully the 3 interviews between His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada and the London Reporter, Ms Nixon, and Mr Desmond O'Ogrady - recorded in their entirety in the SSR - and then reads Srila Prabhpada's essay on The Spiritual Master recorded on the appearance day of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur in 1936 he or she will have all their questions dealing with finding a proper spiritual guided to bring us back to our original Krsna Consciousness.
Right there - in his book. Dreams or no dreams - nothing was left to chance by His Divine GRace. Nothing at all.
So though we agree in principle on what "can" occur, I am also certain that we agree on what Srila Prabhupada arranged in order to prevent the mission from suffering any setback as result of anyone's mistaking hallucination for transcendental communication.
Just as Srila Prabhupada said that if a so-called siksa guru speaks something incongruous with the teachings of one's bonefide spirital master - he is not a real siksa guru, likewise if any dream does not send us to the real shelter Srila Prabhupada arranged for us - his books and guidance in all its actual forms - such "dreams" should be as disregarded as the disruptive bum on samkirtan who tries to impede your samkirtan. Just like a fly is brushed aside by the tail of a massive elephant! If one dreams something that compels us to dive deep into the shelter of Srila Prabhupada and his devotees - then it is as beneficial as any other form of remembrance of guru and Krsna as one might have during his waking state.Posted by bb das @ 12/09/2005 06:38 AM PST
Siva,
It's inconcievable regardless of the size of your head or mental speculation. Just accept what the Mahajanas have said. It's easier and absolute whether you can figure it out or not. Just a suggestion.
Notice your lack of reply to my speaking of Your agenda for all to leave Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon. They're all just worshipping the Institution only right? They havn't figured it out like you and Rocan.
ys
bb dasPosted by shiva das @ 12/09/2005 02:31 AM PST
Dear Trivikrama Maharaja I think my brain is average sized but I may have a swelled head and that may give the appearance of a large brain.
I agree that Krishna could inform Srila Prabhupada, Krishna can do whatever He wants. But if Srila Prabhupada is in Krishna lila then I don't see how Krishna can do such a thing to a resident of Krishna lila without revealing to them more then he wants them to know. If Srila Prabhpada is a gopa in Goloka right now he won't know that he is in Goloka, he won't know that Radha and Krishna, Balarama etc are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That rasa in Goloka is based on the feeling of seeing Krishna, Radha etc as equals. Vaikuntha is where Krishna is related to as the Supreme Lord. Krishna Lila is where Krishna is related to as an equal, as an extraordinary human, but still as a human. The gopas, gopis, parents, etc are not allowed to have knowledge of Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Sometimes they have thoughts that he may be an avatar due to his extraordinary qualities and activities, but then yogamaya causes them to forget. How can Srila Prabhupada possibly be informed about the Krishna consciousness movement without knowing that Krishna is in fact God? Krishna would have to allow Srila Prabhupada the knowledge that He doesn't want any of the jivas in Goloka to have i.e that Krishna is God. That would destroy the rasa of Krishna lila. It would serve no purpose.Posted by bb das @ 12/09/2005 02:14 AM PST
Dear Siva/ Rocan,
Here is Srila Prabhupada’s vision, words and instructions on how the Bona fide Spiritual Master is conscious and responsive to his disciples and sincere followers; always!
Note the difference between what the Founder Acarya of Iskcon says and that of your good selves. You tell me if you are preaching the same as the previous “saints and founders”, or is it that you are more advanced and have understood something beyond Srila Prabhupada’s realizations and presentation.
Oh… and please remember, it’s the same audience.
HDG Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura’s Appearance Day, Lecture -- Atlanta, March 2, 1975:
Prabhupada: So now, by the grace of Krsna and Caitanya Mahaprabhu and IN THE PRESENCE OF MY GURU MAHARAJA, you are so nice boys and girls. So in front of Caitanya Mahaprabhu you are chanting Hare Krsna mantra, and you are taking part in it very seriously. SO MY GURU MAHARAJA WILL BE VERY, VERY MUCH PLEASED UPON YOU AND BLESS YOU WITH ALL BENEFITS.
SO HE WANTED THIS, AND HE IS NOT... IT IS NOT THAT HE IS DEAD AND GONE. THAT IS NOT SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING. Even ordinary living being, he does not die. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. And what to speak of such exalted, authorized personality like Bhaktisiddhanta. HE IS SEEING. I NEVER FEEL THAT I AM ALONE. Of course, when I came to your country without any friend, without any means... Practically, just like a vagabond I came. BUT I HAD FULL FAITH THAT "MY GURU MAHARAJA IS WITH ME." I NEVER LOST THIS FAITH, AND THAT IS FACT.
Letter to: Brahmananda -- Los Angeles 19 December, 1968:
YOU SHOULD ALWAYS PRAY TO HIS DIVINE GRACE BECAUSE NATURALLY HE WILL BE MORE AFFECTIONATE TO YOU THAN TO ME. Generally one is more affectionate to the grandchildren than to the children directly. SO I AM SURE THAT MY GURU MAHARAJA WILL BE EASILY INCLINED TO YOUR PRAYERS THAN THAT OF MINE. YOU WILL DO GOOD ALWAYS BY OFFERING YOUR PRAYERS TO HIS DIVINE GRACE BHAKTISIDDHANTA GOSWAMI MAHARAJA.
(Srila Prabhupada letter, 5th March, 1968)
"Please be happy in separation. I am separated from my Guru Maharaj since 1936 but I AM ALWAYS WITH HIM SO LONG I WORK ACCORDING TO HIS DIRECTION. So we should all work together for satisfying Lord Krishna and in that way the feeling of separation will transform into transcendental bliss."
Devotee Letter -- San Francisco 7 April, 1967:
I always think of you because you are all my heart and soul. I am so pleased to have your association and I ALWAYS THANK MY SPIRITUAL MASTER OM VISNUPADA SRI SRIMAD BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI GOSWAMI MAHARAJA FOR HIS FAVOR BY SENDING ME SOME SINCERE REPRESENTATIVE OF HIM in missionary activities in this part of the world. I came here to execute His Will and by His Grace I have so many good souls … I consider you all as representative of my Guru Maharaja to help me in this helpless condition. MY GODBROTHERS DID NOT HELP ME BUT MY SPIRITUAL MASTER HAS HELPED ME. SO DO NOT THINK THAT I CAN EVER FORGET YOU EVEN FOR A MOMENT. I PRAY TO KRISHNA FOR YOUR MORE AND MORE ADVANCEMENT OF KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS.
CC Antya Concludiong Words:
I THINK THAT HIS DIVINE GRACE BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI THAKURA IS ALWAYS SEEING MY ACTIVITIES AND GUIDING ME WITHIN MY HEART BY HIS WORDS. … It is to be admitted that whatever translation work I have done is through the inspiration of my spiritual master, because personally I am most insignificant and incompetent to do this materially impossible work. I DO NOT THINK MYSELF A VERY LEARNED SCHOLAR, BUT I HAVE FULL FAITH IN THE SERVICE OF MY SPIRITUAL MASTER, HIS DIVINE GRACE SRILA BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI THAKURA. IF THERE IS ANY CREDIT TO MY ACTIVITIES OF TRANSLATING, IT IS ALL DUE TO HIS DIVINE GRACE. Certainly if His Divine Grace were physically present at this time, it would have been a great occasion for jubilation, but EVEN THOUGH HE IS NOT PHYSICALLY PRESENT, I AM CONFIDENT THAT HE IS VERY MUCH PLEASED BY THIS WORK OF TRANSLATION. He was very fond of seeing many books published to spread the Krsna consciousness movement. Therefore our society, the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, has been formed to execute the order of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura.
SMD 4.5: The Disciple Must Have Faith in the Spiritual Master:
Srila Prabhupada; …Although according to material vision His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada passed away from this material world on the last day of December, 1936, I STILL CONSIDER HIS DIVINE GRACE TO BE ALWAYS PRESENT WITH ME by his vani, his words.... I THINK THAT HIS DIVINE GRACE BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI THAKURA IS ALWAYS SEEING MY ACTIVITIES AND GUIDING ME within my heart by his words…I do not think myself a very learned scholar, but I have full faith in the service of my spiritual master, His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. IF THERE IS ANY CREDIT TO MY ACTIVITIES OF TRANSLATING, IT IS ALL DUE TO HIS DIVINE GRACE.
Srila Prabhupada’s expression of dedication to his spiritual master in the first volume of the Bhagavatam, where he writes,
“To Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja, my spiritual master.… He lives forever by his divine instructions and the follower lives with him.”
"How do you like them apples"?
ys
bb dasPosted by Trivikrama Swami @ 12/09/2005 01:25 AM PST
I am not disputing Prahgosa's point that Srila Prabhupada's books are the basis. At the same direct communication from spiritual beings who are no longer manifest on this planet does have a vital role in Vaisnava history. Take for example how Bila Mangal Thakur's spiritual master spoke to him through the prostitute Cintamani.
Shivaji certainly does have a large brain, nobody can deny that. But I am not speaking from the brain but from the heart, not as a jnani but as a tattva-darsinah. Yes, I have SEEN the truth, Srila Prabhupada is currently very much involved in the lives of many of his followers. Through his books and sometimes directly.
What is the problem with that? Krishna can easily inform Srila Prabhupada that one of his followers is in need of his attention.
Here is Srila Prabhupada's own experience:
"Prabhupada: One has to accept the renounced order from another person who is in renounced order. So I never thought that I shall accept this renounced order of life. In my family life, when I was in the midst of my wife and children, sometimes I was dreaming my spiritual master, that he's calling me, and I was following him. When my dream was over, I was thinking. I was little horrified. "Oh, Guru Maharaja wants me to become sannyas…. How can I accept sannyasa?" At that time, I was feeling not very satisfaction that I have to give up my family and have to become a mendicant. At that time, it was a horrible feeling. Sometimes I was thinking, "No, I cannot take sannyasa." But again I saw the same dream. So in this way I was fortunate. My Guru Maharaja (Prabhupada begins to cry, choked voice) pulled me out from this material life. I have not lost anything. He was so kind upon me..."
Notice Srila Prabhupada is NOT saying that the Paramatma pulled me out from this material life. No it was his Guru Maharaja.
Ys TSPosted by bb das @ 12/08/2005 09:05 PM PST
Just to refresh Bhakta Mark about his Own statement;
Mark wrote:
BB Das has not in my opinion grasped that it is indeed possible that within what he calls Iskcon, there are no people left who are fully aligned with the spirit of what Srila Prabhupdada envisioned Iskcon to be.
ys bb dasPosted by Praghosa das @ 12/08/2005 06:50 PM PST
Hello Mark
Prabhu I mean you know disrespect in pointing this out - and I note the general tone of your comments is always quite respectful of Srila Prabhupada - however in your comments you referred to our Srila Prabhupada as "Swamiji". This was most probably a small slip up on your part but it is not our place to ever refer to Srila Prabhupada as "Swamiji".
There is a most wonderful quote from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur wherein he addresses the proper way to view indivuals such as Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur or our Srila Prabhupada:
"There is an eternal, impassible line of demarcation between the Savior and the Saved. Those who are really saved can alone know this, and therefore they do not aspire or pretend to be the Savior, but always keep themselves as the servant of the Savior. The Acharyas belong to the category of spiritual world teachers, and they eternally occupy the superior position."-Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur,
I am sure that it is only an slip on your part but it is important when communicating in such a public forum to take this point into consideration.
I pray that I have not injured you by saying this but it is much more delightful to address our Srila Prabhupada with "great awe and reverence". Calling him Swamiji was unthinkable to his disciples by the year 1972.
It should remain that way.
Respecfully
Praghosa DasPosted by shiva das @ 12/08/2005 03:55 PM PST
From Srila Prabhupada letter to Mahananda dasa, 27th April 1970:
Regarding your questions, 'are the Spiritual Master and the Grand Spiritual Master consciously aware of the prayers of a sincere devotee who prays in love to Them'?-the answer is that no conscious prayers go in vain. They are transmitted positively. But one thing you must know that any prayer you offer to your Spiritual Master and Superior Spiritual Master, all of them are conveyed to Krishna, so no sincere prayers go in vain. We shall always offer such prayers to Spiritual Master, Superior Spiritual Master, Vaisnava Acaryas, Lord Caitanya, and at the end Radha Krishna, that is the system.Posted by Mark @ 12/08/2005 03:07 PM PST
Hari Bol!
Most of us reading here knows what it is like to be lost in "the moment" for some period of time. Surrendered and acting spontaneously due to the Lord's mercy. During those periods, when the Lord's internal potency is guiding our thoughts, feelings, and actions, we are experiencing being channels for the Lord's Guru potency.
The Lord has many ways of manifesting his Guru potency.
Srila Prabhupada was an individual person. He was completely surrendered so felt spontaneously used by the Lord's internal potency ALL the time. Thus he was considered a MahaBhagavata and Jagat Guru.
But he was and is still an individual, personally having some experience.
The Lord himself, through the agency of Paramatma, manifests as Chaitya Guru to whomever he desires. This is Sri Krishna's and thus Sri Balarama's potency.
So he uses all those little particles that he is present in as Paramatma and designs a true replica of our dearest Gurudeva to appear in a picture, on our front porch, in our dreams, anywhere. To many of us at once even.
This does not diminish the fact that this is an actual manifestation of the Lord as Sri Guru.
What it does explain is why the unique individual person that Srila Prabhupada is, is NOT personally aware of all 50 manifestations of his likeness in all 50 of his disciples' dreams on the same night. Only Lord Krishna Pulls that off according to all the sastric evidence that I just don't have on hand because I am not an expert preacher in that regard, but it has all been posted somewhere in this thread.
However, it is possible for a Jiva to have the siddhi of bilocation, and I believe the maximum appearances is 16 where inconceivably there is some awareness of each encounter simultaneously. Thus we can each have a taste, if that is our desire, of a fraction of one of Krishna's ultimate potencies.
But as Anon pointed out, Srila Prabhupada said "many times" that he would appear as Chaita Guru.
Apparently the idea of having his little Jiva awareness scattered in a zillion places at once was not in line with his bhava.
So let's consider ourselves educated on this awesome topic. Thanks Anon.
I once had a dream where it seemed that Swamiji appeared to me in the temple kitchen. He looked at me like, "So? Big deal right, you know what to do, carry on." I was later embarrassed because I thought he could be having a much better time elsewhere.
I guess he was.
Hare Krishna
y.s.
MarkPosted by shiva das @ 12/08/2005 02:31 PM PST
Dear Hare Krsna.
You wrote:
"These days, one can convincingly fabricate any philosophy one likes; there are relevant quotes in sastra for practically any nonsense one comes up with"
You suggest that if it's in sastra and it contradicts your belief that it is nonsense. And then you talk about devotees being motivated by "envious" designs if they apparently accept whatever it is you think they should not accept, even if what you want them to accept contradicts standard Gaudiya siddhanta.
I found this quote of yours interesting?
"Actually, an advanced devotee will not think himself advanced."
How do you reconcile that with Sri Caitanya's order to become guru and liberate the land? If an advanced devotee thinks he is a neophyte then how will he be able to follow Sri Caitanya's order? How can a devotee take the role of a guru unless he is implying that he is more advanced then others?
How many gurus are there in Iskcon? Every single one of them thinks that they are more advanced then their disciples and the rest of the people in the world as well. They preach that they are qualified spiritual masters worthy of being seen as outward manifestations of Caitya guru. They teach that they are capable of taking you back to Godhead if you simply surrender to them.
You have no problem with their assertions of advancement. Yet if people outside of Iskcon say that they can guide others to some small degree then you jump up and want to call them all sorts of derogatory names for daring to not be "humble". How do you reconcile this discrepancy?
True humility is in always knowing that you are not the doer and that Krishna is controlling everything. Humility doesn't mean that you have to see yourself as being a neophyte incapable of giving Krishna to others. If that were the case then why are you giving your opinion as superior to others? Your standard of humility apparently applies only to those whom you disagree with.
660729BG.NY Lectures
Prabhupada: That is a chance given, that you can become a brahmana, you can become a great devotee of Lord Krsna, and you can become the spiritual master of the world. That is the... And I think you should take seriously.
761210DB.HYD Lectures
Prabhupada: We got this information from His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, and that knowledge is still going on. You are receiving through his servant. And in future the same knowledge will go to your students. This is called parampara system. It is not that you have become a student and you'll remain student. No. One day you shall become also guru and make more students, more students, more. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission, not that perpetually... Yes, one should remain perpetually a student, but he has to act as guru. That is the mission of Caitanya Mahaprabhu... So we should become always a very obedient student to our guru. That is the qualification. That is the spiritual qualification.
710718RC.DET Conversations
Prabhupada: Yes. All of them will take over. These students, who are initiated from me, all of them will act as I am doing. Just like I have got many Godbrothers, they are all acting. Similarly, all these disciples which I am making, initiating, they are being trained to become future spiritual masters.Posted by Anon @ 12/08/2005 02:06 PM PST
All glories to Trivrikrama Swami: Yes, he is very correct. I have also had 6-7 dreams of Srila Prabhupada although I have never met him personally. 3 of these dreams were very intimate and in one, I was given a direct response to a question.
Be that as it may, the unique thing about "Srila Prabhupada dreams" is that he does not appear to every devotee in ISKON, or outside of ISKCON.
It is important to note that he appears in one's dreams because they were chosen for some transcendental reason and/or because there was a nagging feeling within the devotee. Srila Prabhupada appearing in one's dreams is not an ordinary occurrence and Srila Prabhupada has many times stated that he would appear in dreams as "caita-guru" I believe. That also dreams of the acarya or Krsna etc. were real. Dreams and visison by all the previous acaryas are a very common and have been documented in their biographies as well.
In my personal opinion, I do believe Srila Prabhupada and Krsna agree to appear in dreams not for entertainment reasons but primarily to surcharge that devotee with patience and enthusiasm and also because of reasons unbeknownst to us, or to carry out an imporatnt service in the future. Only Krsna knows the sincererity within a devotee's heart to recieve the acarya.
This is a very deep subject matter and of course, Srila Prabhupada is always with the sincere aspirant.Posted by Mark @ 12/08/2005 02:05 PM PST
Pat,
You are obviously new to this sort of thing. Your broad blanket statements and hypocrisy speaks for itself to the discerning reader. So with all the humility I can muster in the face of your cheap shot, go back to school.
Ok one hint. Don't waste your time criticizing others for being critical if you think it is such a waste of valuable time.
Sheesh!
Hare KrishnaPosted by Hare Krsna @ 12/08/2005 01:41 PM PST
Dear Devotees,
I agree with Maharaj that thousands of devotees have had some experience of Srila Prabhupada’s direct perceivable involvement in their lives. Only sincere devotees with firm faith in Srila Prabhupada’s Iskcon and those that are surrendered to his mission and following his instructions despite all the problems within can experience his presence. Others, namely the envious neophytes who think they know better will not have this revelation. Instead, they make all sort of excuses, they go through sastra with a magnifying glass to find quotes to suit their perverted agendas.
These days, one can convincingly fabricate any philosophy one likes; there are relevant quotes in sastra for practically any nonsense one comes up with. Krsna reciprocates to some extent with these mischievous, envious and power hungry agenda of devotees. He covers their eyes to the truth because they desire this. They falsely think that they are advanced and everyone else is neophyte as evident in the exchange between Siva and Mark where they subtly hint on their level of advancement. Actually, an advanced devotee will not think himself advanced.
All of these devotees (the Mark’s, the Rocana’s, the Siva’s, the different Rtvik camps etc etc) they all think that their way is the best. Krsna is playing according to their desire and because of their foolishness; they will spend their valuable lives on bickering and criticizing and wasting this great opportunity to make genuine advancement. In the meantime, through the guidance of Srila Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya, Iskcon will go from strength to strength and by Their mercy, the problems within will gradually be rectified.
Your servant
PatPosted by Mark @ 12/08/2005 01:00 PM PST
Dear Devotees.
BB Das says:
"I know many sincere Iskcon devotees/ godbrothers who are well aware of many of the complexities and problems within the Iskcon Society and are very honest and forthright about discussing openly."
I dare say that it was in large part (not totally) because of tremendous pressure brought to bear by others who came before me, and then me myself, that devotees who were victimized began to dare discussing openly the problems and being forthright and honest.
Then he said:
"Can’t you see how Krsna is purifying His movement from all these scandals and the person’s responsible for them. They are either no longer on this planet, fell down and left or are being rectified. The others cannot hide. It is just a matter of time. Krsna is quite capable of getting rid of these guys. We have to be patient, maintain our consciousness and look for opportunities to inculcate Krsna conscious solutions where ever we can."
Waiting silently with so called patience while someone commits one atrocity after another, hoping for the day when it becomes to much for their conscience or that there are enough people who see it to do something about it is not enough.
There is too much cowardice involved in this approach, and once the "big" fall down finally occurs, there is a trail of carnage a mile wide, and THEN these same rascals try to insinuate themselves back into Iskcon knowing they will find only mediocre resistance. Krishna purifies his movement from these scandals through his agents. US!
Our direct involvement and courage to confront the truth NOW.
And then he claims, regarding all these devotees he speaks of:
"They are strictly following, progressing nicely with the idea of helping devotees by setting an example of unflinching faith and dependence on the mercy of Sri Guru and Krsna."
Strictly following? Where are the communities? You know the ones where devotees are producing their own food and clothing. The ones where the women are truly protected, and the cows, and the children. And don't even try to cite that lame duck child protection office. I see through that. I have pages of Srila Prabhupada's orders regarding Varnashrama that are totally Not being followed. Not to mention the continual Guru racket and half hearted policy appeasements to keep the shindig going just a little longer.
And as for:
" Mark you need necessary adhikara to recognize such advanced and sincere souls serving Prabhupada’s instructions and Institution. It’s quite presumptuous to make the claim that there are no qualified and sincere devotees serving within Iskcon."
Can someone tell me what adhikara is necessary to publicly claim that I made the claim that there are "NO qualified and sincere devotees serving within Iskcon."
For the record I never said such a thing, and am ashamed that such a remark was attributed to me.
Good thing I am here to point out your engaging in libel. Too bad you cannot edit this. Since you attack my reputation in this way, I take it as my bad karma, and will do nothing directly to counter you. Though I truly hope that in the spirit of this debate, there are some devotees with some courage who will see how such a statement could put my reputation and body in danger, and be sure to take proper legal action to halt your tendency toward defamation.
Get it straight. I am no pushover, and I am quite aware of my middling adhikari. This makes me more dangerous to status quo Rascals and their apologists then any so-called advanced devotee.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon!
MarkPosted by shiva das @ 12/08/2005 12:27 PM PST
Trivikrama Maharaja I dont' follow your logic.
It goes like this:
a) If Srila Prabhupada is a sampradaya acarya...
b) Then how can he not be able to be in thousands (millions?) of places simultaneously?
As for dreams I also had a dream of Srila Prabhupada many years ago, but it is my understanding that Paramatma controls what we perceive, if we need to see Srila Prabhupada in a dream then Paramatma will manifest that for us.
What you have done is known as the rhetorical demagogic debating technique known as argumentum ad populum which is considered a logical fallacy.I. Argumentum ad Populum (popular appeal or appeal to the majority):
The fallacy of attempting to win popular assent to a conclusion by arousing the feeling and enthusiasms of the multitude. There are several variations of this fallacy, but we will emphasize two forms.
A. "Snob Appeal": the fallacy of attempting to prove a conclusion by appealing to what an elite or a select few (but not necessarily an authority) in a society thinks or believes:
Person L says statement p or argument A. Person L is in the elite. Statement p is true or argument A is good.
B. "Bandwagon": the fallacy of attempting to prove a conclusion on the grounds that all or most people think or believe it is true:
Most, many, or all persons believe statement p is true. Statement p is true.
II. Many advertising slogans are based on this fallacy: Strictly speaking one statement, considered by itself, cannot be a fallacy because it's not an argument. Nevertheless, the import seems to be in some cases an implicit argument with conversational implicature. I.e., the statement can easily be reconstructed from context into an implicit argument:
"Coffee is the think drink." (withdrawn by FDA)"Quick Kick is the National League thirst quencher.""Four Roses Whiskey is for men of distinction.""Sony. Ask anyone."
A. Occasionally, it is difficult to make a distinction between the ad verecundiam (appeal to authority) and the ad populum (appeal to the elite) fallacies.
B. The basis of the ad populum appeal is the assumption that large numbers of persons are more likely to be right than you are likely to be right. Also, in light of peer pressure, many persons feel it's better to be normal than to go against the crowd. Moreover, our desire to be approved by others often results in our joining the "bandwagon" of the probable winning side in a political contest.
III. The main problem with this fallacy is the fact that many people agree on something does not imply that what they agree on is true; nevertheless, the fact that many people agree, can be relevant evidence for the truth in some instances. The trick is to understand the nature of the relevance of the premisses to the conclusion.
Can you answer these questions?
A. We are told that the jivas in Krishna lila do not know who Sri Krishna really is even though they live with him. How could Srila Prabhupada be able to relate to devotees on earth about Krishna consciousness if he doesn't even know that he is with the Surpreme Personality of Godhead Himself even though he is directly enjoying life with Him?
B. Why would Sri Krishna bother Srila Prabhupada in his relationship with Himself and Sri Radha by the mental thoughts of potentially millions of people on earth? How would Srila Prabhupada enjoy his eternal position in Krishna lila and how could Sri Krishna enjoy Srila Prabhupada's association if at every second he is listening to millions of prayers?
C. How do you reconcile Jiva Goswami's statement that no one but Krishna can be in many places at the same time with your philosophy that Srila Prabhupada can be in thousands or even millions of places at the same time and hear and think and act on peoples prayers, dreams etc?
D. If guru is one, as Srila Prabhupada has stated, and if the guru is the transparent-via-medium for the caitya guru as Srila Prabhupada has stated, and if the guru is the outward manifestation of the caitya guru as Srila Prabhupada has stated, then who really is the guru? Is it the devotee who acts as the transparent-via-medium? or is it as Srila Prabhupada has said i.e:
"There does not arise any question of discriminating my Guru from yours or anyone else's. There is only one Guru, who appears in an infinity of forms to teach you, me and all others. In the Mundaka Upanishad[1.2.12] it is said:
tad-vijnartham sa gurum evabhigacchet samit-panih srotriyam brahma-nistham
"In order to learn the transcendental science, onemust approach the bona fide Spiritual Master indisciplic succession, who is fixed in the AbsoluteTruth."
Thus it has been enjoined herewith that in order to receive that transcendental knowledge, one must approach the Guru. Therefore, if the AbsoluteT ruth is one -- about which we think there is nodifference of opinion -- the Guru cannot be two."Posted by bb das @ 12/08/2005 11:32 AM PST
Mark wrote:
BB Das has not in my opinion grasped that it is indeed possible that within what he calls Iskcon, there are no people left who are fully aligned with the spirit of what Srila Prabhupdada envisioned Iskcon to be.
I wrote:
It’s not possible because it’s not true. I know many sincere Iskcon devotees/ godbrothers who are well aware of many of the complexities and problems within the Iskcon Society and are very honest and forthright about discussing openly. There are problems within every Institution which is comprised of conditioned souls struggling to purify their existence. Regardless, they have strong unflinching faith in Srila Prabhupada and his Instructions that we should never leave his Institution of Iskcon. They are strictly following, progressing nicely with the idea of helping devotees by setting an example of unflinching faith and dependence on the mercy of Sri Guru and Krsna. Mark you need necessary adhikara to recognize such advanced and sincere souls serving Prabhupada’s instructions and Institution. It’s quite presumptuous to make the claim that there are no qualified and sincere devotees serving within Iskcon.
Can’t you see how Krsna is purifying His movement from all these scandals and the person’s responsible for them. They are either no longer on this planet, fell down and left or are being rectified. The others cannot hide. It is just a matter of time. Krsna is quite capable of getting rid of these guys. We have to be patient, maintain our consciousness and look for opportunities to inculcate Krsna conscious solutions where ever we can. We must start with ourselves though.
No one can stop one from strictly following the Orders of the Bona fide Acarya Sri Guru. There are so many excuses and whining and complaining like spoiled children. This is not child’s play. Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja said we should have leach like tenacity in following the orders and instructions of the Spiritual Master and that if we do, then we will receive the mercy and blessings of that Spiritual Master; despite what Siva and Rocan believe.
Iskcon is transcendental just like Vrndavana dham. Who can truly see that depends on one’s adhikara and faith. A materialist cannot see the true nature of the dham. He can only see the hogs , dogs, monkeys, and asses. They are not really seeing the dham. It’s like that Mark. Try to understand. Have faith in Mahaprabhu and Srila Prabhupada and the Previous Acaryas. They will set it right in time.
All the best.
ys
bb dasPosted by praghosa das @ 12/08/2005 11:04 AM PST
Dear devotees,
I would like to address the comments of my dear friend and godbrother HH Trivikram Swami.
While I agree Maharaja that Srila Prabhuapada can certainly affect us in our subtle dreams during the night - I do believe that the principle way in which Srila Prabhupada directly influences each and every devotee's inner spiritual life - their moment to moment ability to remember Krsna - favorably and enthusiastically - is by means of his books, letters, lecutures and his committed disciples. I do not say this to minimize your point - but these "experiences" that many devotees have been granted - should never be emphasized over Srila Prabhupada's vani form. Dreams are just that dreams. They can be bonafide communion with Srila Prabhupada - they could be a mix of the spiritual and material. Confirmation of such experiences comes from Srila Prabhupada's books and servants.
It is tragic if devotees do not understand how "present" Srila Prabhupada is in each and every word he wrote. This is exactly how to to easily access Srila Prabhupada and I see it as our solemn duty to emphasize this over and over for everyone's benefit.
Please do not take it that I am disagreeing with you; I am not. Only I am offering what constitutes the most important way in which everyone should understand the special "opportunity" provided us all by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. He admitted that he in fact did not actually write his books but merely accepted the direct dictation of Lord Krsna who personally provided Srila Prabhupada each and every single word of his purports. This is the actual fact and anyone who reads and accepts their natural concise conclusions - is in DIRECT contact with Lord Sri Krsna Himself - through the loving devotional ecstacy of Srila Prabhupada.
Srila Prabhupada said "I will never die. I will live forever in my books - and you will utilize".
This is sometimes passed off as a spiritual cliche; as if it is something inspirational that is oft times repeated merely for "effect" by someone trying to influence an audience on an emotional level towards the acceptance of Krsna Consciousness. I would offer that this statement is anything but that. This statement is as factual as saying "George Bush is the acting President of the United States" or "Consuming 1 teaspoon of Celtic Sea salt in a liter of water will provide your health great benefit". It is a factual reality.
You offered a very nice example of the devotees who had to endure the demise of Hari Kesa Das in Europe. They were perhaps misguided initially as exactly what role he was playing in their life and due to this artificial or perhaps incorrect presentation of who they were actually dependent upon - they were now thinking they were somehow less secure in their devotional service. Each devotees experience would naturally be different according to how personally "invested" they were in that relationship with Hari Kesa Das.
The truth is - their conviction and faith in Krsna Consciousness was rooted in the careful guidance of Srila Prabhupada first and theh the powerful "effects" that occur as one takes up the sincere rectitation of the Holy Name. These effects are actually described by Srila Prabhupada as a greatly diminished interest in the external energy and for all intents and purposes - an appetite for the Holy Name,Krsna Katha, prasadam and the association of devotees! When one finds his taste for these things replacing his former appetite for what is called "Maya" - all as a direct consequence of Chanting the Holy Name and hearing from Srila Prabhupada - then his or her position in Krsna Consciousness is fully secure. Hare Kesa's leaving, though certainly unwelcome by anyone and especially Srila Prabhupada - does not serve to dishearten the devotees but rather serves as the proverbial "cautionary tale" that can provide us all with a clear example of what to avoid in our application of Srila Prabhupada's teachings so as to avoid following in his misguided footsteps.
This is all easily possible - when Srila Prabhpada's disciples and granddisciples guide everyone in taking full advantage of the direct presence of Srila Prabhupada - who is every bit as alive and present today - as he was in 1972 - by means of his most wonderful purports.
We could all fall away but Srila Prabhupada's perfect guidance is always there and we need only emphasize this - over and over and over.
I offer this in support of the above mentioned comments.
"In November of 1969, while speaking in London's Conway Hall, Srila Prabhupada stated the following:
"The process is very simple. Just keep a picture of Lord Caitanya with His associates. Lord Caitanya is in the middle, accompanied by His principal associates -- Nityananda, Advaita, Gadadhara, and Srivasa. One simply has to keep this picture. One can keep it anywhere. It is not that one has to come to us to see this picture. Anyone can have this picture in his home, chant this Hare Krsna mantra, and thus worship Lord Caitanya. That is the simple method. But who will capture this simple method? Those who have good brains. Without much bother, if one simply keeps a picture of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu at home and chants Hare Krsna, then one will realize God. Anyone can adopt this simple method. There is no expenditure, there is no tax, nor is there any need to build a very big church or temple. Anyone, anywhere, can sit down on the road or beneath a tree and chant the Hare Krsna mantra and worship God. Therefore it is a great opportunity."
Now I pray that I have offended no one by making these comments. I do not dispute your including dreams and or even "daytime recollections" of HDG as being aspects of our experiencing the presence of or guidance of our Srila Prabhupada. I only wish to underscore the most important way to experience Srila Prabhupada's direct intervention in our daily spiritual life; his Bhaktivedanta Purports, his lectures, his letters, and also his wonderful devotees, old and new who can help us increase our faith in all this "access" by their personal example.
I hope this is helpful in some way.
Thank you for your patience.
Praghosa DasPosted by Mark @ 12/08/2005 08:38 AM PST
Dear Devotees,
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I submit this realization that it may serve all of our understanding.
I have realized that according to my position, Shiva Das and BB Das are holding postures at extreme ends and yes that means I feel I have a more moderate perspective. Whatever claim to advancement that might signify to anyone so be it, I know I am not perfect, just trying my best.
BB Das has not in my opinion grasped that it is indeed possible that within what he calls Iskcon, there are no people left who are fully aligned with the spirit of what Srila Prabhupdada envisioned Iskcon to be.
Even when Srila Prabhupada was physically present, he was continually putting out fires because his disciples refused to listen to his instructions and implement them. They would stand present and listen, but not hear. If not for their fear, and thus a form of respect, for Srila Prabhupada, they would not have changed course when he came storming onto the scene demanding repentance. As a matter of fact, some STILL defied him, and were excommunicated for long periods of time.
For many reasons, BB Das is afraid to realize that there is no-one holding that line anymore, and has not been for quite sometime, and now the fox is guarding the hen-house, and he is trapped. What he continues to call Iskcon is clearly no longer so.
He says,
“You don’t seem to get the point that what is being worshiped by many is the Instructions of the Bona fide Spiritual Master not the Institution per se.”
If many were worshipping all his instructions, those many would never have let envious rascals co-opt Srila Prabhupada’s Vyasasana, not to mention the GBC and other powerful positions. NEVER. I was not there way back then, but I know once I saw what was going on a few years ago, I left the temple and formulated the best possible plan on what to do in terms of the true reality I saw before me. It wasn’t easy. But I felt it necessary.
What I appreciate is that BB Das can see what Iskcon was meant to be, and how strong Srila Prabhupada’s desire was that it be successfully implemented according to his plan.
So when he says,
“This does not necessarily mean that one is automatically blind to the problems and discrepancies within the Institution and supportive. Instead one looks to advance themselves spiritually in order to better help serve those within the Institution and indirectly benefit the whole Institution. I feel this would be Most pleasing to Srila Prabhupada.”
He is on the right track, but fails to feel my recommendation is valid. In order to advance oneself spiritually, one must become brutally honest with oneself. And if the leadership of Iskcon has become corrupted, and other devotees who have some integrity left are not in positions powerful enough to effect radical change, but are forced to compromise and accept small changes that will never amount to the overhaul necessary, to ignore that and continue on placating the envious is not a sign of spiritual advancement, and will not “serve” anyone who is a victim of the poor policies which continue to come from the highest level.
A sign of spiritual advancement would be adopting WHATEVER POLICY IS NECESSARY TO FIGHT BACK AND RESTORE SRILA PRABHUPADA’S PLAN.
As far as Shiva Das,
He obviously has a huge cranium and figured out right away all the deviations in all their forms, and having a very strong will as well, thus his name, set about trying to implement Varnashrama Dharma. He attempted to educate devotees still struggling within the co-opted Iskcon from afar. Very much like the IRM has done. It seems that over the years, both have come to the conclusion to no longer bother with trying to influence those within Iskcon who just won’t admit the depth of the deviation from Srila Prabhupada’s vision, and thus the gravity of the problem.
However in fairness to my original point, Shiva Das’ mind, which is controlled by Lord Krishna, had decided that some of what Srila Prabhupada ordered in regards to the institution of Daiva Varnashrama was directed to a time, place, and circumstance that is no longer applicable to his perspective of the preaching field. I feel that this is Lord Krishna controlling his mind using his agent Maha Maya Devi, and thus he has had truly mixed success.
I myself continually have this pointed out to me. Each day, another part of my perspective is shown to be influenced by my INORDINATE worldly desires which are not in line with Srila Prabhupada’s vision. Maha Maya Devi, doing her job, senses my desire and gives me the proportional perspective. When I trip over it, I cry out for mercy, Sri Guru steps in, and the faulty thoughts are replaced with a perspective from the Lords internal potency.
So with that said, anyone who will admit to not having it all figured out, I would love to continue to discuss with and see a solution unfold in the Lord’s time, considering our position as sadhana-bhaktas who will make mistakes. Whoever feels they have it down pat and need no revision, you don’t need a fool like me in your association so best pass me by.
Hare Krishna
y.s.
MarkPosted by bb das @ 12/08/2005 04:44 AM PST
Sivaji Wrote:
…feel the institution is some kind of divine personage and more deserving of respect then the vaisnavas in general.
I wrote:
That is a serious speculative generalization. Rather, it is respectful and the “key to success” in spiritual life to follow strictly the Instructions of the Bona fide Spiritual Master who has asked his disciples and followers to not leave his Iskcon Institution. Regardless of the test!
This does not necessarily mean that one is automatically blind to the problems and discrepancies within the Institution and supportive. Instead one looks to advance themselves spiritually in order to better help serve those within the Institution and indirectly benefit the whole Institution. I feel this would be Most pleasing to Srila Prabhupada.
You wrote:
… they think they are on some kind of divine mission to protect or defend their ideology of institutional worship.
I wrote:
You don’t seem to get the point that what is being worshiped by many is the Instructions of the Bona fide Spiritual Master not the Institution per se. There are many motivations of persons’ inside an institution or out. That is not the point. Just because someone has followed the Spiritual Master’s order to stay and serve within his Society does not make one automatically a “worshiper of an Institution”. You seem to always be generalizing.
Looks like you have an agenda for all; to give up following Srila Prabhupada’s instructions to stay and serve within Iskcon.
Your agenda is what we are trying to defend and protect faithful devotees from doing; that would not at all be pleasing to Srila Prabhupada. Defending and protecting Iskcon is a service to Srila Prabhupada and his Instructions.
Then you preach it doesn’t matter anyway because Srila Prabhupada doesn’t know what’s going on here and even if he did, he cannot do anything to help us anyway. This is not the vision or teachings of the Founder and Saint.
You wrote:
…they are battling people who are promoting the philosophical vision of the founders and saints of the institutions they think they are defending.
I wrote:
Sorry, your speculative presentations are not always in line with Guru, sadhu and sastra. You are choosing not to present things according to Srila Prabhupada’s vision. You are rationalizing and twisting away some of Srila Prabhupada’s teachings and instructions. I trust Srila Prabhupada’s vision over your Maui Varnasrama vision any day. They are drastically different. You think you understand more than Srila Prabhupada. We should strictly follow the previous Nitya Siddha Acaryas. That is the safe and assured way. I thought Rocan of all people would understand that.
Instead their singin' from the same bhajana book....
ys
bb dasPosted by Trivikrama Swami @ 12/08/2005 04:06 AM PST
Rocan Prabhu has said:
"While Shiva dasa's blog submissions are more scholarly, he and I are singing from the same bhajan book."
But Prabhu if you consider Srila Prabhupada the "Sampradaya Acarya" then I don't understand how you can limit him, as Shiva das does, by claiming that it is no longer possible for him to be actively involved with his followers on this planet. I dare say there are thousands of sincere souls who would testify that this idea is completely false, because they have had direct experience of Srila Prabhupada's involvement in their lives since 1977.
I was giving a class not long ago in Minsk, Belarus, and asked the assembled devotees, none of who had ever meet Srila Prabhupada personally, if any of them had had dreams where Srila Prabhupada appeared. There were about 200 devotees in the class and around half of them raised their hands.
I ask one boy what his dream was. He said he had been initiated by Harikesa and after he fell down the boy was thinking how could he continue with this process as he naturally considered Harikesa to be so much more advanced then he was. So he was feeling very hopeless.
In that mood he took rest. Srila Prabhupada came to him and spoke strongly. "Why you say hopeless? Don't you know that I am here?" He said that then his sleep broke and he was feeling wide awake and spiritually rejuvinated to continue the process.
I also have had such kind of dreams which have been vital to my Krishna consciousness. We know that Srila Prabhupada also was repeated instructed by his Guru Maharaja in dreams to take sannyas.
This idea that Srila Prabhupada is busy in Krishna Loka and no longer is concerned or involved with the society that he created with such effort is bogus.
Ys TSPosted by shiva das @ 12/07/2005 09:00 PM PST
Mark you have not offended me one bit.
Like I said, try and see Krishna controlling everyone and everything, if people can do that then they cannot take offense because they see Krishna in control of whatever anyones says or does or what you or I say or do. If you can see like that then how can you take offense? It is simply a matter of education on what reality is and what reality isn't.
Srimad Bhagavatam 11.13.24
Within this world, whatever is perceived by the mind, speech, eyes or other senses is Me alone and nothing besides Me. All of you please understand this by a straightforward analysis of the facts.
Bhagavad Gita 3.27
The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities, which are in actuality carried out by nature.
PURPORT
Two persons, one in Krsna consciousness and the other in material consciousness, working on the same level, may appear to be working on the same platform, but there is a wide gulf of difference in their respective positions. The person in material consciousness is convinced by false ego that he is the doer of everything. He does not know that the mechanism of the body is produced by material nature, which works under the supervision of the Supreme Lord. The materialistic person has no knowledge that ultimately he is under the control of Krsna. The person in false ego takes all credit for doing everything independently, and that is the symptom of his nescience. He does not know that this gross and subtle body is the creation of material nature, under the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and as such his bodily and mental activities should be engaged in the service of Krsna, in Krsna consciousness. The ignorant man forgets that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is known as Hrsikesa, or the master of the senses of the material body, for due to his long misuse of the senses in sense gratification, he is factually bewildered by the false ego, which makes him forget his eternal relationship with Krsna.
My critque of you or anyone is not because I am offended or because I want to cause them harm. I say what I say because I mean to educate, if devotees take it personally I assure you it is not meant as anything but as helpful even if it may bruise an ego here or there. All I can offer devotees is to try and be Krishna conscious, always remember Krishna and never forget Krishna and everything will be understood through detachment. There is one controller, I am just a puppet, not the puppetmaster.
As for your critique of my website I don't really care if people accept it as relevant to their lives or not. Accept or reject, I make no demands on people to accept what I have written. Krishna is controlling what you think and what anyone else thinks about everything and anything, all I can do is what I do and leave the result to the Lord.Posted by Mark @ 12/07/2005 07:04 PM PST
Dear Shiva Das,
I offer you my obeisances.
I am a person. Criticize me or my ideas in a non constructive way, either directly or by innuendo, and I will personally respond as best I can. No offense meant or taken.
Please know that I do appreciate your efforts, and do not level criticism at your plans without having something to offer to back it up. Unfortunately, because of my crude behavior, you are not totally receptive to my words.
A small example. you said...
"I do not share the same opinion of as you as to the nature of all of the worlds elites."
I said actually...
"They are generally spoiled pampered athiests etc..."
Meaning if that is your main pool of candidates, I believe you are limiting your mission, and in for a rough ride. Their power is based on a house of cards built by oppresion and unsound ecological policies, and their fiat money quickly loosing any real value.
And I am unsure how it happened this way, but I have seen additional instructions from Srila Prabhupada explaining some fine details about his own plan of instituting Varnashrma Dharma within Iskcon, that I did not find on your website. As well as some procedures layed out by Bhakti-Vinode Thakura regarding the vedic method the elders of a community should undertake to determine varna of a child which are very comprehensive. Also some of my own insights from introspection. All of which I would hope you would be happy to receive.
Regarding my level of advancement.
I certainly do believe it is my duty to implement a solution where I see a problem if I have the skills. In attempting to set up legal avenues to wrest illegal power from envious persons and reclaim properties of Sri Chaitanya's Sankirtana Movement, and to win people's assistance in the matter, if in some way that can be construed as claiming a level of advancement, well, I am more advanced than an incorrigible envious rascal. No false humility on that point.
And if someone were to disagree with this course of action, I would have to consider them an apologist of the envious rascals, and if someone deems me more advanced then such persons, I would again agree but I don't do or write about these matters seeking that status. Again I have somehow not earned much credit with you for you perceive this as my motivation.
My flaw is that I have blundered and offended you, and really wish our efforts could complement one another. Perhaps our ego's are being worn smooth enough that the friction will be soon be musical.
Please forgive me, and consider me an ally?
aspiring to serve Srila Prabhupada and the Vaisnavas,
MarkPosted by shiva das @ 12/07/2005 05:23 PM PST
Mark don't take criticims personally from me because it isn't meant to be. As far as my ideas as I have layed them out at my site I have given 2 propositions. These are my general ideas of how to implement varnashrama in Iskcon at http://varnashrama-maui.com/page3.html
And the rest of the site is about a preaching project to try and reach the worlds elites by giving the vaisnava community a place to associate amongst themselves free from the institutional restraints and useless power trips of the type we see in certain posts on this blog. I do not share the same opinion of as you as to the nature of all of the worlds elites. Maybe there are certain very powerful people who might possibly be as you describe to some degree or another, but I don't believe most of the worlds elite class of people are like that. Either way the mission and mercy of Sri Gaura Nitai is often delivered to the most fallen as in the case of Jagai and Madhai. I don't care if people don't approve.
As far as this statement of yours:It is not lost on me that you continually intimate that you are highly advanced and perhaps even qualified to be Acharya and pull something like that off.
You said you were moved by Rocana Dasa's post. You failed to mention how you relate to the part where he questioned.
"Can we all just agree as self-confessed, fallen conditioned souls that we are mere sadhana-bhaktas at best?"
I seek no following and would in fact reject one. But at the same time when duty calls if you feel you have something to offer which can help others on the path to Krishna then you have to disregard false humility in the face of a lack of qualified leadership to accomplish what needs to be done. Try and understand how Krishna is controlling everything and everyone.
In fact aren't you doing what you seem to find fault in me for doing? You are on a mission to convince everyone that your realization and authority to "overthrow" Iskcon leadership is your duty. In doing that you seek to be seen as more advanced then everyone who disagrees with you is it not?Posted by Anon @ 12/07/2005 02:31 PM PST
Shiva das: The new God of SS, huh? Why do you charaterize BB das and those who oppose these silly ravings as "demagogues?" Shame, shame on you and Rocana das in ISKCON's 40th anniversary year. SS is still a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Posted by Mark @ 12/07/2005 02:02 PM PST
Dear Shiva Das,
I understand that you have initiated a project called Maui Varnashrama. I have read your mission statement.
I am not sure which spiritual master's vision of Daiva Varnashrma-Dharma you are attempting to implement. It does not match the instructions and descriptions of how such a society would initiate and then operate of any Acharya I am aquainted with.
While I wish you well, I am not sure that the world elites who luxuriate in Maui and places like it fall into the category of people who are hankering for God realization.
They are neither wise, nor genuinely curious, neither in financial distress, or in general dispair or destitution.
They are generally spoiled pampered athiests who on the whole are interested purely in increasing sense-gratification outside of any need of pious regulation. They generally spawn from rich illuminati-bloodline families or their favored servants, and I have a suspicion you know this already in great detail.
It is not lost on me that you continually intimate that you are highly advanced and perhaps even qualified to be Acharya and pull something like that off.
You said you were moved by Rocana Dasa's post. You failed to mention how you relate to the part where he questioned.
"Can we all just agree as self-confessed, fallen conditioned souls that we are mere sadhana-bhaktas at best?"
I confront you like this because I see no other way to get your attention, and see you as a potential teammate, and that you have viewed me quite less than such I just attribute to a glitch in the matrix.
Hare Krishna
in service
MarkPosted by shiva das @ 12/07/2005 01:39 PM PST
bb das:
Do you know the meaning of the word demagogue? Let me enlighten you if you do not. From en.Wiktionary.org
NOUN
1. an orator or leader who gains favor by exciting the passions and prejudices of the audience
From P. Carpenter a historian from his article 'What Qualifies as Demagoguery?'
A more useful definition of demagoguery arises from the interdisciplinary application of rhetorical studies, which here takes on the form of logical-fallacy analysis, which itself reduces to two inseparably linked constituents: simplicity of message content and its wholly unilateral point-of-view presentation. For greater ease of expression we shall hereafter refer to these constituents as “one-sided simplicity,” or alternatively, simply as unidimensionality. And it is this rhetorical quality (in addition to scapegoatism, addressed shortly) that is consistently identifiable in the history of American demagoguery and permits an unconditional point of reference for any given demagogic practitioner. Simplicity of message content and a one-sided presentation of that message--that is, one that systematically excludes competing arguments and differing points of view--are, to borrow from sociologist Sigmund Neumann, “The Steadfast Rules of the Demagogue.” His quality of oration has varied historically, his degree of “populist” commitment has waxed and waned, his level of dedication to principle has differed--but without fail the demagogue has exercised unidimensionality.
He employs a gamut of logical fallacies to accomplish the common goal of all politicians: power and influence, whether merely for power’s sake or as a means to realize some given idealistic goal. Naturally he appeals to “the crowd” (ad populum exhortations)--nothing unique in itself, especially in a democratic forum--but commonly adds the logical fallacies of appeals to pity (argumentum ad misericordiam); appeals to reverence (argumentum ad verecundium); appeals to personality (argumentum ad hominem); and an assortment of other rhetorical devices. Suffice it to say that the term of “unidimensionality” is one that derives from the scholarly observations of diverse logicians of rhetoric. Professor S. Morris Engel of York University, for example, had a similar concept of unidimensionality in mind when he discussed the rhetorical problem of argumentation “omissions”: “Not all such omissions are innocent, or done for the sake of literary elegance or brevity.... More turns on them--the opportunity for gain, influence, deception--and hence a greater effort is made to hide the assumptions on which the argument rests.” (Again, the argument need not be an expressly “false” one. As stated above, it is more a matter of presentation.)
University of Winnipeg philosophy professor and argumentation-analyst Douglas Walton had much the same in mind when he reflected on rhetorical “fairmindedness.” Its demagogic opposite--unidimensionality--is characterized by the abdication of “critical doubt,” “‘due consideration’ to criticisms or arguments from an opposed viewpoint” and “desist[ance] from judging another viewpoint before fully understanding it.” In One-Sided Arguments: A Dialectical Analysis of Bias, Walton succinctly stated his thesis in writing “there is supposed to be a genuine exchange of views,” which was another way of saying what Aristotle posited more than two-thousand years ago: that “rhetoric is the counterpart of dialectic.” Put simply, unidimensionality denies the synthetic benefit of the dialectic and therefore the necessary deliberative nature of an engaged, democratic society.
Indigenous to the demagogue’s extensive use of unidimensionality has been the common practice of scapegoating: the hostile targeting of select groups for condemnation and blame. Important to note is that these groups may be identified by ethnicity, race, or religion, of course, but just as easily by political ideology. Akin to the notional convenience of scapegoats is the historiographical concept of the “Other”: those Americans, as Southern historian Sheldon Hackney described them, standing “in opposition to a presumed American norm.” As such, they are easy targets. It is they who are responsible for the problems of crime or unemployment, for instance; or they may be responsible for cultural upheavals that seemingly threaten traditional values, or even for America’s sagging international standing, if that is the case. The “Other” must be to blame for these conditions, for “we”—the true Americans--continue to uphold all that is good and socially manageable.Posted by shiva das @ 12/07/2005 01:18 PM PST
Rocana Prabhu that was a moving post.
For me the debate that has unwound has highlighted the us versus them mentality present in people who feel the institution is some kind of divine personage and more deserving of respect then the vaisnavas in general. Neophytes feel free to throw down in some kind of grudge match because they think they are on some kind of divine mission to protect or defend their ideology of institutional worship.
Because they see themselves as defenders of the truth while still in the neophyte stage, and also because they think that those who disagree with them over their vision of institutional worship are something to be defended against come hell or high water, they then end up in the peculiar position of trying to make a show of philosophical one upmanship in their battle against their perceived enemy without realizing that they are battling people who are promoting the philosophical vision of the founders and saints of the institutions they think they are defending.
So what ends up happening is that because they are neophytes they don't see that. They end up arguing against the philosophy propunded by the founders and saints within the tradition of the institution they claim to want to defend "from attack" due to their limited knowledge of that philosophy the institution is supposed to represent. In effect they are battling against what the institution is supposed to represent in the name of defending the institution.
I agree that the institution of Iskcon is worthy of defending. But without sufficient education on the precepts or philosophical doctrine which the institution is supposed to represent, then when faced with someone who argues for those precepts the person who is unacquainted with those precepts will see them as deviations to be defended against due to his limited fund of knowledge. Then those persons may go on some kind of quixotic quest tilting at imaginary demons while the real battle to be faced is their own battle against ignorance and ego.Posted by bbdas @ 12/07/2005 12:59 PM PST
Rochana Prabhu,
Are you singing from the same bhajana book which says that Srila Prabhupada is not conscious or aware of the prayers and service being offered to him?
and... What about all of the quotes of Srila Prabhupad's instructions (to his disciples and followers)to not leave his Iskcon Institution?
Try to be objective and honest.
How do you not clearly hear what those instructions are?
ys
bb dasPosted by Mark @ 12/07/2005 11:35 AM PST
Dear Rocana Dasa,
please accept my respectful obeisances.
In your latest post you wrote,
"My comprehension is that the original Gaudiya Matha and ISKCON, as they appeared during the lila periods of the most recent Sampradaya Acaryas, were modern manifestations of Lord Caitanya’s eternal Sankirtan Movement. Today, we have the perverted reflections."
Then, after elaborating upon many of the ways in which the perversions occured, you said,
"Just who, and in our circumstance what “institution”, is most purely representing our Sampradaya Acaryas is another contentious issue."
I contend that the most recent Sampradaya Acharya left quite detailed instructions for all of us admittedly "Sadhana Bhaktas".
In sum they were to institute Daiva Varnashrama Dharma (a.k.a. ISKCON). This was to be our sadhana which would gracefully relieve us of our material desires in order that we progress to the next stages of bhakti.
If as you say all that is left is a perverted reflection of ISKCON,
Do you contend that those instructions regarding Srila Prabhupada's plan are null and void because it was a failure?
Or do you believe with faith, we will be empowered to institute his plans regardless of the mess that has been made by the less apt and or sincere?
Thank you for your consideration.
Hare Krishna
y.s.
MarkPosted by Rocana dasa @ 12/07/2005 10:47 AM PST
The conversation that has unfolded in this Sun Blog over the last few weeks is both fascinating and informative. From a journalistic viewpoint, it's been a valuable opportunity for the readers to gain some insight into different points of view present on the Vaisnava landscape.
While Shiva dasa's blog submissions are more scholarly, he and I are singing from the same bhajan book. I really appreciated his posting from the article on Organized Religion by Srila Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati. This particular revelation is straight from Vaikuntha. Studying it has greatly motivated me by focusing my understanding of Srila Prabhupada as a Sampradaya Acaraya. My comprehension is that the original Gaudiya Matha and ISKCON, as they appeared during the lila periods of the most recent Sampradaya Acaryas, were modern manifestations of Lord Caitanya’s eternal Sankirtan Movement. Today, we have the perverted reflections.
Born again Christians repeatedly quote the phrase, “only through Christ can the truth [God) be known”. All nitya-siddha, Shaktavesa Avatars and direct incarnations of Godhead preach in this manner. According to time, place and circumstance they are indeed the only way. When Srila Prabhupada was performing his ISKCON lila pastimes, it was the very best spiritual course for everyone on the planet because it was a manifestation of Lord Caitanya’s Sankirtan Movement. Devotees imagining themselves to be members of the Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya should have recognized Srila Prabhupada to be a Sampradaya Acarya and as such, they should have rushed to participate in ISKCON, his preaching mission. Many of Srila Prabhupada’s direct followers joined and departed even before his lila wound itself up. To varying degrees, Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers helped, and some even tried to hinder the mission. As nitya-siddha Sampradaya Acaryas, our Srila Prabhupada and His Spiritual Master were of the same mind, mood, and mission as Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. During the last one hundred and fifty years, the eternal Sankirtan Movement has become re-manifest, as foretold by the Yuga Avatar himself.
The names "Gaudiya Matha" and "ISKCON" were essentially the practical preaching tools utilized by these Sampradaya Acaryas. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura had his own organization, which wasn’t inherited by his divine son. The legal entities established by these contemporary Sampradaya Acaryas were necessary organizational legal interfaces with the culture and time in which they appeared. They all are eternal associates of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, opening the floodgates of the Sankirtan Movement.
As Shiva dasa so nicely stated, we cannot limit the Supreme Personality of Godhead in any way or by any means. All efforts to limit the Lord are an indication of Mundane Religiosity taking hold. This religious phenomenon takes hold after the pastimes of the Sampradaya Acaryas disappear from sight. Even during the lila periods, neophytes are making arrangements to deviate from the course. At the very moment these transcendental personalities wind-up their lila, as is the case with Krsna lila, the interpersonal dynamics immediately change throughout the spiritual family.
We observe this phenomenal transformation on many mundane levels. Families, tribes, communities, countries, from time immemorial have experienced this truth when their leaders die. Our foundational sastras, Caitanya-caritamrta, Srimad Bhagavatam, what to speak of the Mahabharata and the Ramayana, contain numerous accounts of the earth-shattering ramifications directly resulting from the disappearance of exalted, divine personalities. Monarchs throughout history have seen it as a principle duty to produce a qualified heir to the throne so their efforts to provide peace, prosperity and stability throughout the kingdom will hopefully continue after their death. This legacy mindset found within the material world is but a perverted reflection of what takes place on the topmost level of existence. In Lord Krsna’s lila, he orchestrated the mass suicide of his entire dynasty in Dwarka so as to prevent the evitable disturbance resulting from quarreling over who is Lord Sri Krsna's rightful inheritor.
Srila Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati didn’t have offspring. Our Srila Prabhupada completely disinherited his children, saying he left his family because they weren't devotees. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura recognized his son to be a nitya-siddha sent by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Regardless, his other spiritually-oriented son, Lalita prasada, contested and fought with his brother. To this very day, a few members of Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON have sided with the Lalita Prasada group. So, why are we fighting amongst ourselves? It is just history repeating itself. As individual non-realized devotees, there is nothing we can do to prevent it from happening. As struggling, sincere followers of our Sampradaya Acaryas, we have to make the best of a bad bargain. Can we all just agree as self-confessed, fallen conditioned souls that we are mere sadhana-bhaktas at best?
The world is presently devoid of the manifest presence of a Shaktavesa Avatar, as far as I can tell. Still, we have to count our blessings. We have been mercifully blessed with ample pure knowledge in the form of the writings/teachings of the succession of three Sampradaya Acaryas. All of them presented our siddhanta directly in the English language. All three Sampradaya Acaryas were born in the Land of Bharata-varsha, India. As such, they all spoke and preached in many indigenous languages, yet they mercifully presented the philosophy for us in English. I could go on listing the many blessing we have obtained. Considering that few of us (if any) have any prior past life qualifications, what do we have to complain about? Naturally we are disagreeing on some traditional areas of our siddhanta that have been debated since time immemorial, such as guru-tattva. Just who, and in our circumstance what “institution”, is most purely representing our Sampradaya Acaryas is another contentious issue. But the very fact that we are all more inclined to spend our time discussing these matters rather than so many mundane topics is proof positive of the power and potency of these teachings in comparison to any and all other mental distractions.
It gives me the greatest pleasure to correspond in this way with all you rare souls. Rarer still is the fact that we can and will participate in such discussions despite our predictably different viewpoints. I believe that Srila Prabhupada would be pleased that we are acting in this manner rather than restricting our intellectual input and output to only our own “club members”.Posted by bb das @ 12/07/2005 06:39 AM PST
Siva in your world it's all one.
Here is how Vaisnava devotees pray.
CC Antya Lila 2.2
vande 'ham sri-guroh sri-yuta-pada-kamalam sri-gurun vaisnavams ca sri-rupam sagrajatam saha-gana-raghunathanvitam tam sa-jivam sadvaitam savadhutam parijana-sahitam krsna-caitanya-devam sri-radha-krsna-padan saha-gana-lalita-sri-visakhanvitams ca
TRANSLATION
I offer my respectful obeisances unto the lotus feet of my spiritual master and of all the other preceptors on the path of devotional service. I offer my respectful obeisances unto all the Vaisnavas and unto the six Gosvamis, including Srila Rupa Gosvami, Srila Sanatana Gosvami, Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, Jiva Gosvami and their associates. I offer my respectful obeisances unto Sri Advaita Acarya Prabhu, Sri Nityananda Prabhu, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and all His devotees, headed by Srivasa Thakura. I then offer my respectful obeisances unto the lotus feet of Lord Krsna, Srimati Radharani and all the gopis, headed by Lalita and Visakha.Posted by shiva das @ 12/07/2005 04:39 AM PST
bb das you don't seem to be well educated on Gaudiya siddhanta. Let's try again.
Lalita and Visakha are not nitya siddha devotees. They are personal expansions of Sri Radhika i.e non different then Sri Radhika, as already quoted from Srila PrabhupadaSuch expansions from Srimati Radharani are all Her plenary portions. All these womanly forms of Krsna are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Visnu forms. These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form. There is no difference between the original form and the reflected forms. The female reflections of Krsna's pleasure potency are as good as Krsna Himself
Lalita and Visakha are "as good as Krsna Himself". Why? They are personal expansions of Sri Radha who is identical to Sri Krishna.As already explained, Krsna and Radha are one in two. They are identical. Krsna expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the purusas. Similarly, Srimati Radharani expands Herself in multi-forms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja.
From Bhaktivinoda's Jaiva Dharma:Srila Jiva Gosvami describes the Supreme Person in these words:
"The Absolute Truth is one. Still, by His inconceivable potency He is manifested in four ways: 1. svarupa (His original form), 2. tad-rupa-vaibhava (His incarnations), 3. jiva (the individual spirit souls), and 4. pradhana (the material energy). These four features are like: 1. the interior of the sun planet, 2. the sun's surface, 3. the sunlight, and 4. the reflection of the sun."
Lalita and Visakha are incarnations of Sri Radha who is identical to Sri Krishna, they are not jiva tattva, they are Visnu Tattva.
In Krsna Sandarbha Jiva Goswami says there are two types of expansions of The Supreme Lord:This is confirmed in the Varaha Purana:
The two kinds of expansions from the Supreme Personality of Godhead are : 1. svamsa (personal expansions) and 2. vibhinnamsa (separate persons). The svamsa expansions are unlimitedly powerful. Their form and personality are the same as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself. There is not the slightest difference between the svamsa expansions and the Original Personality of Godhead. The vibhinnamsa expansions are very weak in comparison to Them.
They are personal expansions of Sri Radha in the way that Balarama is a personal expansion of Sri Krishna.
From Jiva Goswami's Krishna Sandarbha 188.1:I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who resides in His own realm, Goloka, with Radha, who resembles His own spiritual figure and who embodies the ecstatic potency (hladini). Their companions are Her confidantes, who embody extensions of her bodily form and who are imbued and permeated with ever-blissful spiritual rasa.
In this verse the word 'ananda-cin-maya-rasa-pratibhavitabhih' means 'full of the mellows of pure love'. She expands into many forms, and the blissful Supreme Personality of Godhead, who desires to enjoy Her as a lover, also expands into many forms.
They are all Svamsa expansions or Visnu Tattva expansions of the Lord.All these womanly forms of Krsna are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Visnu forms. These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form. There is no difference between the original and reflected forms.
So when you mention Lalita and Visakha and Ramananda Raya and Svarupa Damodara you should understand that they are not different from Sri Krishna.
So your question about how they can be covered over by Yogamaya in Vraja but also be in Sri Gaura lila is due to your not understanding that they are never under Yogamaya in the same sense that jivas are under Yogamaya because they are personal expansions of the Supreme Lord.
Even Krishna Himself works under Yogamaya:
From Adi lilaThe influence of Yogamaya will inspire the gopis with the sentiment that I am their paramour. Neither the gopis nor I shall notice that Yogamaya is governing our pastimes, for our minds will be completely entranced by one another's beauty and qualities. Our passionate desire will unite us even at the expense of moral and religious duties. Destiny will sometimes bring us together and sometimes keep us apart. I shall taste the essence of all these rasas, and through them I shall favor all the devotees
When Krishna uses yogamaya for Himself it is different then how He uses Yogamaya for the jivas. The jivas are not allowed to know that Sri Sri Radha Krishna and their expansions are all the Supreme Lord in various manifestations, as already explained in previous verses and purports. When Krishna uses Yogamaya on Himself it is to create a mood for himself. Srila Prabhupada explains in his purport:In the spiritual loving sentiment induced by the yogamaya potency, both Lord Sri Krsna and the damsels of Vraja forget themselves in spiritual rapture. By the influence of such forgetfulness, the attractive beauty of the gopis plays a prominent part in the transcendental satisfaction of the Lord, who has nothing to do with mundane sex. Because spiritual love of Godhead is above everything mundane, the gopis superficially seem to transgress the codes of mundane morality. This perpetually puzzles mundane moralists. Therefore yogamaya acts to cover the Lord and His pastimes from the eyes of mundaners, as confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita (7.25), where the Lord says that He reserves the right of not being exposed to everyone.
Krishna uses yogamaya on Himself to create a mood of spiritual rapture, whereas he uses yogamaya on the jivas to keep them ignorant of the fact that they are playing with God. We should understand that not all gopis, not all queens, and not all goddesses of fortune are personal expansions of Sri Sri Radha Krishna. Only the jivas are covered over by yogamaya in order to keep them unaware of the true nature of the Personalities of Godhead who are at play in Krishna Lila.
If you can't understand any of this see the last part of that last purport.
As for your repetition of your other question I have already answered, yet you seem to neglect anything that doesn't fit into your preconceived vision of Gaudiya siddhanta. Here it is again:From Jiva Goswami's Krishna Sandarbha 155.6:
Lord Krsna's ability to be manifested in many places simultaneously and perform many different activities at the same time by His mystic potency is not shared by anyone else. No yogi or sage can perform such wonderful activities
So what you are saying and what I guess Trivikrama Maharaja is saying is against what Srila Jiva Goswami is saying. You guys think that Srila Prabhupada can be in Krishna lila as well as inside the heart of all of his disciples or I guess maybe anyone who considers themselves to be his disciples and that he hears all their prayers and can then act using some mystic potency to fullfil the deisres of those many disciples in some form or another. Jiva Goswami says no. I say no. You guys say yes.
This is the last time I respond to these questions on this topic, umkay? Either you get it or you don't, it's in Krishna's hands.Posted by Trivikrama Swami @ 12/07/2005 03:00 AM PST
Letter 12-27-74
Brahmananda Swami seemed to think that you need more men there. His telegram reads, "Trivikrama alone, more men required urgently.'' I do not understand what he means by alone. What is this alone? Vaisnava is never alone. When I first came to the United States I was seemingly alone for one year. But I never felt alone. I always felt the presence of my Guru Maharaja. Myself, I was cooking, I was printing books, I was selling books, everything seemingly alone. But I did not lose my determination. Actually you should know this, you are never alone.Posted by bb das @ 12/07/2005 02:24 AM PST
Siva,
The point is that the Eternal Associates (nitya-siddhas) are conscious and present simultaneously. You missed the point again!
You could not quote according to Guru, sadhu and sastra on any of my questions to you in reference to your mental speculative statements.
Still waiting…….?
Again for your reference;
How is it that Lalita and Vishaka Sakhis are present in the forms of Svarupa Damodar and Ramananda Raya respectively and at the SAME TIME covered by yoga maya in Vraja lila in Goloka Vrndavana?
Can you show anywhere, acording to Guru, sadhu and sastra that the Bona fide Spiritual Master is not conscious of his disciples when he is not physically manifested?
If the previous acaryas are not conscious and responsive to us, why would Srila Prabhupada or any other Vaisnava offer continued prayers to Srila Rupa and Srila Jiva Goswamis', for example?
Why would we pray at the samadhis of the previous acaryas if they are not conscious and responsive to our sincere prayers?
Let everyone see what a speculator you really are.
ys
bb dasPosted by shiva das @ 12/06/2005 09:32 PM PST
bbb das:
As for Lalita and Visakha, they are personal expansions of Srimati Radharani, they are not jivas.tara madhye vraie nana bhava-rasa-bhede krsnake karaya rasadika-lilasvade
Among them are various groups of consorts in Vraja who have varieties of sentiments and mellows. They help Lord Krsna taste all the sweetness of the rasa dance and other pastimes.
PURPORT
As already explained, Krsna and Radha are one in two. They are identical. Krsna expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the purusas. Similarly, Srimati Radharani expands Herself in multi-forms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja. Such expansions from Srimati Radharani are all Her plenary (completely identical) portions. All these womanly forms of Krsna are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Visnu forms. These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form. There is no difference between the original and reflected forms. The female reflections of Krsna's pleasure potency are as good as Krsna Himself.
The plenary expansions of Krsna's personality are called vaibhava-vilasa and vaibhava-prakasa, and Radha's expansions are similarly described. The goddesses of fortune are vaibhava-vilasa, and the queens are vaibhava-prakasa of Radharani. The personal associates of Radharani, the damsels of Vraja, are direct expansions of Her body. As expansions of Her personai form and transcendental disposition, they are agents of different reciprocations of love in the pastimes of Lord Krsna, under the supreme direction of Srimati Radharani.
As for your other point, you can pray to whomever you want, I have no problem with you doing that.Posted by bb das @ 12/06/2005 08:59 PM PST
Siva,
You wrote:
”So if Srila Prabhupada is with Sri Sri Radha Gopinath, I guarantee he doesn't know who they really are, and he certainly doesn't know anything about us. He is enjoying Krishna lila without any other concerns.”
Can you show anywhere, acording to Guru, sadhu and sastra that the Bona fide Spiritual Master is not conscious of his disciples when he is not physically manifested? I don’t care a fig about Your guarantee.
Your speculating Prabhuji.
If the previous acaryas are not conscious and responsive to us, why would Srila Prabhupada or any other Vaisnava offer continued prayers to Srila Rupa and Srila Jiva Goswamis', for example?
Why would we pray at the samadhis of the previous acaryas if they are not conscious and responsive to our sincere prayers?
Back up your statements.
also,
How is it that Lalita and Vishaka Sakhis are present in the forms of Svarupa Damodar and Ramananda Raya respectively and at the same time covered by yoga maya in Vraja lila in Goloka Vrndavana?
You see Prabhuji, you are trying to use mundane logic and argument to understand that which is inconceivable to one in material consciousness.
You are just speculating on the material mental platform. You can only understand these subjects when you surrender to a bona fide sad guru, authorized by parampara and hear from him.
Ya ho bhagavata pada vaisnava stane ekanta asraya kara caitanya carane
"If you want to understand Srimad Bhagavatam you MUST approach and surrender to a self realized Vaisnava and hear from him. You can do this when you have completely taken shelter of the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu." cc antya 5.131
Otherwise, you will continue to just speculate, mislead and make offense.
ys
bb dasPosted by shiva das @ 12/06/2005 08:07 PM PST
Trivikrama Maharaja
If you would have quoted the entire paragraph we would see this:
"Just like Krishna can be present simultaneously in millions of places, similarly the spiritual master also can be present wherever the disciple wants. A spiritual master is the principle, not the body. Just like a television can be seen in thousands of places by the principle of relay monitoring."Gentlemen, the offering of such an homage as has been arranged this evening to the acaryadeva is not a sectarian concern, for when we speak of the fundamental principle of gurudeva or acaryadeva, we speak of something that is of universal application. There does not arise any question of discrirninating my guru from yours or anyone else's.
There is only one guru, who appears in an infinity of forrns to teach you, me and all others.
In the Mundaka Upanisad (1.2.12) it is said:
tad-vijnartham sa gurum evabhigacchet samit-panih srotriyam brahma-nistham
"In order to learn the transcendental science, one must approach the bona fide spiritual master in disciplic succession, who is fixed in the Absolute Tmth.''
Thus it has been enjoined herewith that in order to receive that transcendental knowledge, one must approach the guru. Therefore, if the Absolute Truth is one, about which we think there is no difference of opinion, the guru cannot be two. The acaryadeva to whom we have assembled tonight to offer our humble homage is not the guru of a sectarian institution or one out of many differing exponents of the truth. On the contrary, he is the jagad-guru, or the guru of all of us, the only difference is that some obey him wholeheartedly, while others do not obey him directly.
"Although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the spiritual master. Vibration--what we have heard from the spiritual master--that is living." (Lecture, January 13, 1969, Los Angeles)
“…the disciple and spiritual master are never separated, because the spiritual master always keeps company with the disciple, as long as the disciple follows strictly the instructions of the spiritual master. This is called the association of vani (words).” (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.47, Purport)750408mw.may Conversations
Jayadvaita: ...they know everything and they're perfect in everything. But sometimes, from our material viewpoint, we see some discrepancies. Just like we think that...
Prabhupada: Because material viewpoint. The viewpoint is wrong; therefore you find discrepancies.
Jayadvaita: So we should think that we have the defect.
Prabhupada: Yes. Acarya is explained, bhakti-samsanah: "One who's preaching the cult of devotional service, he's acarya." Then why should you find any discrepancy?
Jayadvaita: Because we see... For instance, sometimes the acarya may seem to forget something or not to know something, so from our point of view, if someone has forgotten, that is...
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Then...
Jayadvaita: ...an imperfection.
Prabhupada: That is not the... Then you do not understand. Acarya is not God, omniscient. He is servant of God. His business is to preach bhakti cult. That is acarya.
Jayadvaita: And that is the perfection.
Prabhupada: That is the perfection. Hare Krsna.
Jayadvaita: So we have a misunderstanding about what perfection is?
Prabhupada: Yes. Perfection is here, how he is preaching bhakti cult. That's all
So if you find sometimes that Srila Prabhupada says something different then it is my understanding that he is trying to help a neophyte to have faith and help them in their devotional life.Posted by shiva das @ 12/06/2005 07:32 PM PST
So before anyone asks about why throughout the Bhagavatam and the Gita there are devotees in Krishna lila who are speaking about Krishna as the Supreme Lord, and how does that fit into the previous words of the Bhagavatam and Srila Prabhupada where we are told that the devotees in Krishna lila are kept in ignorance of Krishna's true identity, I will try and explain this seeming contradiction.
The pastimes described in sastra are meant for the purpose of Sri Krishna's descent into the mundane world.
yada yada hi dharmasya
glanir bhavati bharata
abhyutthanam adharmasya
tadatmanam srjamy aham
Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at that time I descend Myself.
So the pastimes that Sri Krishna performs when He descends is not really different in essence from the eternal pastimes in Goloka, but there is some difference due to the purpose of the respective pastimes and the nature of the mundane world (birth, death, etc). So when we are told that the devotees in Krishna lila are not aware of Sri Krishna being the Supreme Lord and then we hear some prayer or conversation in sastra where they do appear to understand, that can be understood as being part of the purpose of Sri Krishna's descent into the mundane world, ie. to enlighten us by those conversations and prayers etc. In Goloka no such purpose is there so there is no revelatory philosophical conversations about the nature of Sri Krishna being the absolute truth.
Here is Srila Bhaktisiddhanta explaining from Sri Brahma Samhita, it is very deep so don't feel dumb if it is over your head. It is really only fully understandable through realization as is mentioned in the following purport:Krishna is ever manifest in His beauty with His infinite pastimes in Goloka. Sometimes the variant manifestation of those pastimes becomes visible on the mundane plane. Sri Hari, the Supreme Lord, also manifests His pastimes of birth, etc., accompanied by all His paraphernalia. The divine sportive potency fills the hearts of His paraphernalia with appropriate spiritual sentiments in conformity with the will of Krishna. Those pastimes that manifest themselves on the mundane plane, are His visible pastimes. All those very pastimes exist in their nonvisible form in Goloka beyond the ken of mundane knowledge.
In His visible pastimes Krishna sojourns in Gokula, Mathura and Dvaraka. Those pastimes that are nonvisible in those three places, are visible in their spiritual sites of Vrindavana.
From the conclusions just stated it is clear that there is no distinction between the visible and nonvisible pastimes. The apostle Jiva Gosvami in his commentary on this sloka as well as in the gloss of Ujjvala-nilamani and in Krishna-sandarbha remarks that:
"the visible pastimes of Krishna are the creation of His cit (spiritual) potency. Being in conjunction with the reference to mundane function they exhibit certain features which seem to be true by the influence of the limiting potency (Maya); but these cannot exist in the transcendental reality. The destruction of demons, illicit paramourship, birth, etc., are examples of this peculiarity. The gopis are the extensions of the ecstatic energy of Krishna, and so are exceptionally His own. How can there be illicit connection in their case? The illicit mistress-ship of the gopis found in His visible pastime, is but the mundane reflection of the transcendental reality."
The hidden meaning underlying the words of Sri Jiva Gosvami, when it is made explicit, will leave no doubt in the minds of the readers. Sri Jiva Gosvami is our preacher of transcendental truth. So he is always under the influence of Sri Rupa and Sanatana. Moreover in the pastimes of Krishna Sri Jiva is one of the manjaris. So he is conversant with all transcendental realities.
There are some who, being unable to understand the drift of his statements, give meanings of their own invention and indulge in useless controversies. Sri Rupa and Sanatana say that there is no real and essential distinction between the lilas visible and nonvisible, the only distinction lies in this that one is manifest in the mundane sphere whereas the other is not so. In the supermundane manifestation there is absolute purity in the seer and the seen. A particularly fortunate person when he is favored by Krishna, can shake off worldly shackles and connections, enter the transcendental region after attaining the realized taste of the varieties of rasa that is available during the period of novitiate. Only such a person can have a view and taste of the perfect and absolutely pure lila of Goloka. Such receptive natures are rarely to be found. He, who exists in the mundane sphere, can also realize the taste of cid-rasa by the grace of Krishna by being enabled to attain the realized state of service. Such a person can have a view of the pastimes of Goloka manifested in the mundane lila of Gokula. There is certainly a difference between these two classes of eligible seekers of the truth. Until one attains the perfectly transcendental stage he must be hampered by his lingering limitations, in his vision of the pastimes of Goloka. Again, the vision of the transcendental reality varies according to the degree of self-realization. The vision of Goloka must also vary accordingly.
There is more to his purport and you can read it at http://vedabase.net/bs/5/37/en1Posted by Trivikrama Swami @ 12/06/2005 07:14 PM PST
What about this one Sivaji
In the absolute world there is no distinction as me, or he, and I. Krishna and His representative is the same. Just like Krishna can be present simultaneously in millions of places. Similarly, the Spiritual Master also can be present wherever the disciple wants.
Letter 28 May '68 to MalatiPosted by shiva das @ 12/06/2005 01:08 PM PST
Dear Hare Krsna:
From Jiva Goswami's Krishna Sandarbha 155.6:
Lord Krsna's ability to be manifested in many places simultaneously and perform many different activities at the same time by His mystic potency is not shared by anyone else. No yogi or sage can perform such wonderful activitiesPosted by shiva das @ 12/06/2005 01:04 PM PST
bb das you wrote:
Siva, once again you show that you do not have unflinching faith and a proper understanding of Vaisnava tattva. Whatever the Pure Vaisnava wants Krsna fulfills his desire. It is Prabhupada’s desire and statement that his movement Iskcon will go on for Ten Thousand Years. How can that statement be true unless it is Prabhupada’s desire and how could one doubt that Krsna will fulfill the desires of his Most Pure Empowered Sakti-Avesa and dear most intimate associate.
Srila Prabhupada said that since the start of Kali Yuga that after 15 thousand years the age of Kali will become too "gloomy" for Krishna consciousness. That since now we are 5,000 years into Kali Yuga that there are 10,000 years left for the Krishna consciousness movement. He has stated that it is foretold that that for 10,000 years more the Krishna consciousness movement will continue " provided we keep it uncontaminated".
Some quotesSrimad Bhagavatam 8.5.23
When Krsna appeared, He gave His orders, and when Krsna Himself appeared as a devotee, as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He showed us the path by which to cross the ocean of Kali-yuga. That is the path of the Hare Krsna movement. When Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu appeared, He ushered in the era for the sankirtana movement. It is also said that for ten thousand years this era will continue. This means that simply by accepting the sankirtana movement and chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, the fallen souls of this Kali-yuga will be delivered. After the Battle of Kuruksetra, at which Bhagavad-gita was spoken, Kali-yuga continues for 432,000 years, of which only 5,000 years have passed. Thus there is still a balance of 427,000 years to come. Of these 427,000 years, the 10,000 years of the sankirtana movement inaugurated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu 500 years ago provide the opportunity for the fallen souls of Kali-yuga to take to the Krsna consciousness movement, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and thus be delivered from the clutches of material existence and return home, back to Godhead.
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Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada, you said yesterday, or a few days ago, that this movement will go on unimpeded for ten thousand years, so...
Prabhupada: Yes, provided we keep it uncontaminated. You should take this opportunity.
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Rather, this movement, as I have now began with my disciples, European, American boys, they're...They are not very satisfied, the present politicians. They are not very satisfied. They don't want. Everywhere this, more or less the same mentality, but it is our duty on behalf of Krsna to push on this movement. So we are doing, and we are getting response. It is not without response. It will increase.That is also stated, that for ten thousand years Krsna consciousness movement will increase. Yes.
Syamasundara: Ten thousand years.
Prabhupada: Within ten thousand years, if they become Krsna conscious, then life is successful.After ten thousand years, the gloomy picture of Kali-yuga will come. Still there is time. Ten thousand years is not small period. So we have passed five thousand years. So still ten thousand. We have got to the fifteen thousand years. Kali-yuga's duration of life is four hundred thousand, four hundred and twenty-seven thousand.
So Srila Prabhupada was writing in his purport to the Srimad Bhagavatam about how it has been predicted that that the sankirtan movement of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu will go for 10,000 years from the birth of Sri Caitanya. I don't think Iskcon existed back then.
Then you wrote:Such Pure Devotees are fully conscious and responsible for their Movements and disciples and followers eternally. Otherwise, why pray to Bhaktivinoda Thakura if he is only capable of performing one service at a time in Goloka Vrndavana. Can he hear you if you're sincere and purified? Can he shower mercy and blessings and inspire us with realization? It’s a question of faith and devotion Siva
I don't think it's only a matter of faith and devotion. I think it's a matter of bogus philosophy being accepted by people who don't know what they are talking about...like the above from you.
Srila Prabhupada is not "fully conscious" of his movement and his disciples. No jiva has that power. If Srila Prabhupada is in Krishna Lila he will only know what is going on in Vraja and he won't even know that Radha and Krishna are who they really are. In Krishna lila Yogamaya covers over the devotees so that they cannot understand who Radha and Krishna really are. Sometimes they think Krishna might posssibly be an avatar because it was predicted that he may be, but Yogamaya quickly covers over those thoughts and they forget and see Krishna as only their son, friend, or lover. They are not allowed to even know their true situation, what to speak of knowing what is going on in Kali Yuga on planet earth in Cleveland, Ohio.Srimad Bhagavatam 10.7.10
na te sraddadhire gopa
bala-bhasitam ity uta
aprameyam balam tasya
balakasya na te viduh
The assembled gopis and gopas, unaware that Krsna is always unlimited, could not believe that baby Krsna had such inconceivable power. They could not believe the statements of the children, and therefore they neglected these statements as being childish talk.
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Purport Srimad Bhagavatam 7.10.48
...the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His original form as Krsna was always living with the Pandavas. Although the Pandavas, because of the influence of Krsna's yogamaya, could not think of their fortunate position, every saintly person, including the great sage Narada, could understand it, and therefore they constantly visited Maharaja Yudhisthira.
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Srimad Bhagavatam 2.7.30
grhnita yad yad upabandham amusya mata
sulbam sutasya na tu tat tad amusya mati
yaj jrmbhato 'sya vadane bhuvanani gopi
samviksya sankita-manah pratibodhitasit
When the cowherd woman [Krsna's foster mother, Yasoda] was trying to tie the hands of her son with ropes, she found the rope to be always insufficient in length, and when she finally gave up, Lord Krsna, by and by, opened His mouth, wherein the mother found all the universes situated. Seeing this, she was doubtful in her mind, but she was convinced in a different manner of the mystic nature of her son.
PURPORT
One day Lord Krsna as the naughty child disturbed His mother Yasoda, and she began to tie up the child with ropes just to punish Him. But no matter how much rope she used, she found it always insufficient. Thus she became fatigued, but in the meantime the Lord opened His mouth, and the affectionate mother saw within the mouth of her son all the universes situated together. The mother was astonished, but out of her deep affection for Krsna she thought that the Almighty Godhead Narayana had kindly looked after her son just to protect Him from all the continuous calamities happening to Him. Because of her deep affection for Krsna, she could never think that her very son was Narayana, the Personality of Godhead Himself. That is the action of yogamaya, the internal potency of the Supreme Lord, which acts to perfect all the pastimes of the Lord with His different types of devotees. Who could play such wonders without being God?
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Srimad Bhagavatam 1.11.39
tam menire 'bala mudhah
strainam canuvratam rahah
apramana-vido bhartur
isvaram matayo yatha
The simple and delicate women truly thought that Lord Sri Krsna, their beloved husband, followed them and was dominated by them. They were unaware of the extent of the glories of their husband, as the atheists are unaware of Him as the supreme controller.
PURPORT
Even the transcendental wives of Lord Sri Krsna did not know completely the unfathomable glories of the Lord. This ignorance is not mundane because there is some action of the internal potency of the Lord in the exchange of feelings between Him and His eternal associates. The Lord exchanges transcendental relations in five ways, as proprietor, master, friend, son and lover, and in each of these pastimes He plays fully by the potency of yogamaya, the internal potency. He plays exactly like an equal friend with the cowherd boys or even with friends like Arjuna. He plays exactly like a son in the presence of Yasodamata, He plays exactly like a lover in the presence of the cowherd damsels, and He plays exactly like a husband in the presence of the queens of Dvaraka. Such devotees of the Lord never think of the Lord as the Supreme, but think of Him exactly as a common friend, a pet son, or a lover or husband very much dear to heart and soul. That is the relation between the Lord and His transcendental devotees, who act as His associates in the spiritual sky, where there are innumerable Vaikuntha planets. When the Lord descends, He does so along with His entourage to display a complete picture of the transcendental world, where pure love and devotion for the Lord prevail without any mundane tinge of lording it over the creation of the Lord. Such devotees of the Lord are all liberated souls, perfect representations of the marginal or internal potency in complete negation of the influence of the external potency. The wives of Lord Krsna were made to forget the immeasurable glories of the Lord by the internal potency so that there might not be any flaw of exchange, and they took it for granted that the Lord was a henpecked husband, always following them in lonely places. In other words, even the personal associates of the Lord do not know Him perfectly well, so what do the thesis writers or mental speculators know about the transcendental glories of the Lord? The mental speculators present different theses as to His becoming the causes of the creation, the ingredients of the creation, or the material and efficient cause of the creation, etc., but all this is but partial knowledge about the Lord. Factually they are as ignorant as the common man. The Lord can be known by the mercy of the Lord only, and by no other means. But since the dealings of the Lord with His wives are based on pure transcendental love and devotion, the wives are all on the transcendental plane without material contamination.
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Srimad Bhagavatam 10.45.1
sri-suka uvaca
pitarav upalabdharthau
viditva purushottamah
ma bhud iti nijam mayam
tatana jana-mohinim
Sukadeva Gosvami said: Understanding that His parents were becoming aware of His transcendental opulences, the Supreme Personality of Godhead thought that this should not be allowed to happen. Thus He expanded His Yogamaya, which bewilders His devotees.
PURPORT
If Vasudeva and Devaki would have seen Krishna as almighty God, their intense love for Him as their son would have been spoiled. Lord Krishna did not want this. Rather, the Lord wanted to enjoy with them the ecstatic love of vatsalya-rasa, the relationship between parents and children. As Srila Prabhupada often pointed out, although we normally think of God as the supreme father, in Krishna consciousness we can enter into the Lord's pastimes and play the part of His parents, thus intensifying our love for Him.
Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura points out that the word jana may be translated here as "devotees," as in the verse diyamanam na grihnanti vina mat-sevanam janah (Bhag. 3.29.13). He further explains that jana may also be translated as "parents," since jana is derived from the verb jan, which in the causative form (janayate) means "to generate or to give birth to." In this sense of the word (as in janani or janakau), the term jana-mohini indicates that the Lord was about to expand His internal illusory potency so that Vasudeva and Devaki would again love Him as their dear child.
This is a common theme in Krishna's pastimes. Whenever Krishna does something non human the devotees become mystified about how He could have done what it appears He has done. But that thought is covered over by Yogamaya and they forget. This is because Krishna wants to enjoy rasa with his devotees based on love not on adoration of God.
So if Srila Prabhupada is with Sri Sri Radha Gopinath, I guarantee he doesn't know who they really are, and he certainly doesn't know anything about us. He is enjoying Krishna lila without any other concerns.Posted by Hare Krsna @ 12/06/2005 12:30 PM PST
Dear Siva Prabhu.
Siva: What makes you the arbiter of my level of realization?
Your level of realization is evident from some of the statements you make, such as this:
Siva: Srila Prabhupada is most likely in Vraja with Sri Sri Radha Govinda. So I don't think he can provide what it is you seem to think he can.
When sincere devotees pray to Srila Prabhupada, they actually feel his presence. He reciprocates with them in a number of ways. You need sincerity and faith to experience this which is not evident through your realizations. So even if Srila Prabhupada is in Goloka Vrndavana, by some inconceivable way which is beyond your understanding, he is present here as well. You may speculate, but that is all it is – just speculation. Try to have faith, take shelter of more advanced devotees and understand through them (if you are sincere, you will find guidance even within Iskcon). It is easy to quote sastra, even a parrot can be trained to do so. However, to speak sastra with the eyes of realization is something else.Posted by bb das @ 12/06/2005 03:07 AM PST
Sivaji…Srila Prabhupada is always in Vraja. Srila Prabhupada has said never was there a time that I am not with Radha Krsna. Radha and Krsna are always in Vraja. This is deep tattva prabhuji, I don’t know if you can understand it or not?...
Siva, once again you show that you do not have unflinching faith and a proper understanding of Vaisnava tattva. Whatever the Pure Vaisnava wants Krsna fulfills his desire. It is Prabhupada’s desire and statement that his movement Iskcon will go on for Ten Thousand Years. How can that statement be true unless it is Prabhupada’s desire and how could one doubt that Krsna will fulfill the desires of his Most Pure Empowered Sakti-Avesa and dear most intimate associate. How can this Movement go on for 10,000 years with out the Lord and His Pure Representative Srila Prabhupada making arrangement to manifest their Institution with bona fide Sri Guru(s).
Sri Guru is always manifested. I don’t know if you know that tattva or not?
Such Pure Devotees are fully conscious and responsible for their Movements and disciples and followers eternally. Otherwise, why pray to Bhaktivinoda Thakura if he is only capable of performing one service at a time in Goloka Vrndavana. Can he hear you if you're sincere and purified? Can he shower mercy and blessings and inspire us with realization? It’s a question of faith and devotion Siva.
Iskcon cannot accept an Uttama adikara, but the sincere persons with proper adhikara within Iskcon can. Srila Prabhupada has said his godbrothers were envious, therefore they could not recognize.
I hope your false ego didn’t get to badly bruised. Actually, I agree that’s not necessarily a bad thing. I think what rubs people the wrong way though is your tendency to be snide and smug (holier than thou) when speaking to devotees. Like “only you get it and no one else does”. Sounds familiar doesn’t it.
Then it sounds like your getting reeeeeal sarcastic there Prabhuji. Might we have hit a “Raw Nerve”? Sorry for the caps just tryin’ to getchya to undastan’.
ys
bb dasPosted by shiva das @ 12/06/2005 02:56 AM PST
anon you wrote:
When Krsna or the Vedas refer to "within the heart" it is literal. Within the heart cave for heaven's sake. The jiva and the supersoul sit together in the heart as two birds on the same tree etc. You should know that.
You misunderstood what I wrote. The verse I quoted was this:The Lord can be perceived in His subtle form within the heart by one's mind, since the Lord controls the minds of everyone
That doesn't refer to your heart organ, it refers to the heart of the living entity or heart of your consciousness or soul. It means heart in the same way as this verse does:
Srimad Bhagavatam 4.20.10When the heart is cleansed of all material contamination, the devotee's mind becomes broader and transparent, and he can see things equally. At that stage of life there is peace, and one is situated equally with Me as sac-cid-ananda-vigraha
Or this verse:
Śrī Brahma-saḿhitā 5.38I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is Śyāmasundara, Kṛṣṇa Himself with inconceivable innumerable attributes, whom the pure devotees see in their heart of hearts with the eye of devotion tinged with the salve of love.
PURPORT
The Śyāmasundara form of Kṛṣṇa is His inconceivable simultaneous personal and impersonal self-contradictory form. True devotees see that form in their purified hearts under the influence of devotional trance. The form Śyāma is not the blue color visible in the mundane world but is the transcendental variegated color affording eternal bliss, and is not visible to the mortal eye. On a consideration of the trance of Vyāsadeva as in the śloka, bhakti-yogena manasi etc., it will be clear that the form of Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the full Personality of Godhead and can only be visible in the heart of a true devotee, which is the only true seat in the state of trance under the influence of devotion. When Kṛṣṇa manifested Himself in Vraja, both the devotees and nondevotees saw Him with this very eye; but only the devotees cherished Him, eternally present in Vraja, as the priceless jewel of their heart. Nowadays also the devotees see Him in Vraja in their hearts, saturated with devotion although they do not see Him with their eyes. The eye of devotion is nothing but the eye of the pure unalloyed spiritual self of the jīva. The form of Kṛṣṇa is visible to that eye in proportion to its purification by the practice of devotion. When the devotion of the neophyte reaches the stage of bhāva-bhakti the pure eye of that devotee is tinged with the salve of love by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, which enables him to see Kṛṣṇa face to face. The phrase "in their hearts" means Kṛṣṇa is visible in proportion as their hearts are purified by the practice of devotion. The sum and substance of this śloka is that the form of Kṛṣṇa, who is Śyāmasundara, Naṭavara (Best Dancer), Muralīdhara (Holder of the Flute) and Tribhańga (Triple-bending), is not a mental concoction but is transcendental, and is visible with the eye of the soul of the devotee under trance.
Or this:
premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanenasantah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayantiyam syamasundaram acintya-guna-svarupamgovindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
"I worship the primeval Lord, Govinda, who is always seen by the devotee whose eyes are anointed with the pulp of love. He is seen in His eternal form of Syamasundara, situated within the heart of the devotee."
One who has developed such a love for Krsna sees Syamasundara, Kartamesana, always within his heart. At this stage, Lord Krsna never disappears from the sight of the devotee, nor does the devotee ever lose sight of the Lord. In the case of a yogi who sees the Lord as Paramatma within the heart, the same applies. Such a yogi turns into a pure devotee and cannot bear to live for a moment without seeing the Lord within himself.
When the heart is mentioned in the sastra sometimes it means the heart organ where the jiva is located and sometimes it has other meanings as in the above or as in the following:
Srimad Bhagavatam 2.10.30nididhyasor atma-mayam
hridayam nirabhidyata
tato manas candra iti
sankalpah kama eva ca
TRANSLATION
When there was a desire to think about the activities of His own energy, then the heart (the seat of the mind), the mind, the moon, determination and all desire became manifested.
Then you wrote:As far as the mind is concerned, Krsna is not controlling it, he wants us to become "goswami" and control the mind through our spiritual disciplines. He says to Arjuna in Bhagavad-gita that the mind is our friend or enemy and that the mind has an "awesome, godlike power." Krsna gives us free will to control our minds and to accept or reject him. Why are you confused about this???
Gee, maybe it's because Krishna Himself says:The Lord can be perceived in His subtle form within the heart by one's mind, since the Lord controls the minds of everyone, even great demigods like Lord Siva.
For neophytes they are advised to try and control the mind by utilizing the mind in some form of sadhana bhakti. After the mind is cleansed of ignorance at that time the true nature of the mind is revealed. The mind is not under our control. Nothing is under our control. Everything is under the control of the Lord.
At that higher stage the mind reveals it's true nature to the devotee. As Sri Krishna states above. When it is understood that Krishna is in control of everything:manasa vacasa drstyagrhyate 'nyair apindriyaihaham eva na matto 'nyaditi budhyadhvam anjasa
Within this world, whatever is perceived by the mind, speech, eyes or other senses is Me alone and nothing besides Me. All of you please understand this by a straightforward analysis of the facts.
Then at the stage the devotee sees Krishna everywhere through everything because Krishna is in control over everything everywhere.
yo mam pasyati sarvatra sarvam ca mayi pasyati tasyaham na pranasyami sa ca me na pranasyati
TRANSLATION
For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me.
PURPORT
A person in Krsna consciousness certainly sees Lord Krsna everywhere, and he sees everything in Krsna. Such a person may appear to see all separate manifestations of the material nature, but in each and every instance he is conscious of Krsna, knowing that everything is the manifestation of Krsna's energy. Nothing can exist without Krsna, and Krsna is the Lord of everything--this is the basic principle of Krsna consciousness. Krsna consciousness is the development of love of Krsna--a position transcendental even to material liberation. It is the stage beyond self-realization at which the devotee becomes one with Krsna in the sense that Krsna becomes everything for the devotee and the devotee becomes full in loving Krsna. An intimate relationship between the Lord and the devotee then exists. In that stage, the living entity attains his immortality. Nor is the Personality of Godhead ever out of the sight of the devotee. To merge in Krsna is spiritual annihilation. A devotee takes no such risk. It is stated in the Brahma-samhita:
premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti yam syamasundaram acintya-guna-svarupam govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
"I worship the primeval Lord, Govinda, who is always seen by the devotee whose eyes are anointed with the pulp of love. He is seen in His eternal form of Syamasundara situated within the heart of the devotee." (Bs. 5.38) At this stage, Lord Krsna never disappears from the sight of the devotee, nor does the devotee ever lose sight of the Lord. In the case of a yogi who sees the Lord as Paramatma within the heart, the same applies. Such a yogi turns into a pure devotee and cannot bear to live for a moment without seeing the Lord within himself.Posted by Anon @ 12/06/2005 12:47 AM PST
Shiva das: You're wrong again. Gee, come on! We're supposed to be Vaisnava, all-powerful. When Krsna or the Vedas refer to "within the heart" it is literal. Within the heart cave for heaven's sake. The jiva and the supersoul sit together in the heart as two birds on the same tree etc. You should know that.
As far as the mind is concerned, Krsna is not controlling it, he wants us to become "goswami" and control the mind through our spiritual disciplines. He says to Arjuna in Bhagavad-gita that the mind is our friend or enemy and that the mind has an "awesome, godlike power." Krsna gives us free will to control our minds and to accept or reject him. Why are you confused about this???Posted by shiva das @ 12/05/2005 11:59 PM PST
bb das you wrote:
Do you think Srila Prabhupada is incapable of providing a bona fide Sri Guru within his Institution which will be here for the next Ten Thousand Years (according to Srila Prabhupad’s words) ?
Srila Prabhupada is most likely in Vraja with Sri Sri Radha Govinda. So I don't think he can provide what it is you seem to think he can. Whether or not Sri Krishna can provide a maha bhagavata for Iskcon is something which should be obvious, of course He can.
Does that mean that Iskcon will accept the uttama adhikari for what he is? Maybe, maybe not.
Srila Prabhupada was not accepted by his godbrothers as an uttama adhikari until after he did what he did, and even then some still thought he was just lucky.
Then you asked:Do you think there are any qualified Vaisnava devotees within Iskcon?
That depends on what you mean by qualified. If you mean uttama adhikaris devotees who speak directly to Sri Krishna 24/7...no
If you mean something else, then yes.
Then you asked:Do you know all the devotees within Iskcon?
Yes.
I'm keeding.
Then you asked:Do you think anyone but yourself is qualified to understand the Truth and to be able to disseminate such realizations to others?
Of course other people besides myself are qualified to "understand the Truth", billions of people in my estimation.
Once they understand "the Truth" then they will be able to "disseminate such realizations to others".
Then you wrote:You see Siva when your arguments are shown to be faulty and when you start to lose control, you revert back to your snide and smug personal criticisms. Are we feeling a little “bitchy” today?
I don't think my arguments were shown to be faulty, I don't think I lost control either since I never had any control in the first place. My criticisms weren't personal either, they were constructive in my estimation. Sometimes people need to be told things like they are, false egos may get bruised, but that's a good thing.
And as far as "feeling bitchy" goes, I don't think you are understanding where I am coming from. I'm always bound to say something which may bruise a few egos, I can't do anything about that. Ya see there's this person called "Krishna", maybe you've heard of Him? Anyways he does this thing to people where they, like, act out what he has them do? To those who understand this interesting situation, like, they can actually see through the actors and see the writer/director as He speaks through others. It's kind of tricky, but like if your real smart like and pay attention to what I AM saying, you can actually be able to perceive what's really going on, at all times, through all people, CAPISCE?
manasa vacasa drstya
grhyate 'nyair apindriyaih
aham eva na matto 'nyad
iti budhyadhvam anjasa
Within this world, whatever is perceived by the mind, speech, eyes or other senses is Me alone and nothing besides Me. All of you please understand this by a straightforward analysis of the facts
If you can pull that off then try this one. Notice where Krishna says "perceived by the mind"? What that means that whatever is going on in your mind is also Krishna, but when we are in illusion we think either we are the mind or that we are controlling the mind. If you can see with the eyes of knowledge, then not only will you be able to see Krishna speaking through everyone, like right now, but also you can do this:
sri-bhagavan uvaca
sa esa jivo vivara-prasutih
pranena ghosena guham pravistah
mano-mayam suksmam upetya rupam
matra svaro varna iti sthavisthah
The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: My dear Uddhava, the Supreme Lord gives life to every living being and is situated within the heart along with the life air and primal sound vibration. The Lord can be perceived in His subtle form within the heart by one's mind, since the Lord controls the minds of everyone, even great demigods like Lord Siva. The Supreme Lord also assumes a gross form as the various sounds of the Vedas, composed of short and long vowels and consonants of different intonations.
When he says "within the heart" he doesn't mean your heart organ, he means the heart of your consciousness. See, what Krishna is saying that since He is actually in control of your mind, that you can actually perceive Krishna there, you just have to understand that Krishna is in fact in control of your mind, and then detach yourself from identifying from the mind and simply listen.
Magic and hilarity ensues...if you can understand. That's a big if though. Know what I MEAN?Posted by bb das @ 12/05/2005 09:42 PM PST
Dear Siva,
Do you think Srila Prabhupada is incapable of providing a bona fide Sri Guru within his Institution which will be here for the next Ten Thousand Years (according to Srila Prabhupad’s words) ?
Do you think there are any qualified Vaisnava devotees within Iskcon?
Do you know all the devotees within Iskcon?
Do you think anyone but yourself is qualified to understand the Truth and to be able to disseminate such realizations to others?
You see Siva when your arguments are shown to be faulty and when you start to lose control, you revert back to your snide and smug personal criticisms. Are we feeling a little “bitchy” today?
ys
bb dasPosted by shiva das @ 12/05/2005 05:07 PM PST
Dear Hare Krsna you wrote:
To much of jnana and scrutizinigly reading between the lines is not good. We are not lawyers. Our goal is realization -we have to know how to understand jnana according to realization.
What makes you the arbiter of my level of realization?
You have to understand Bhaktisaddanta Sarasvati Thakur through the realisations of Srila Prabhupada.
If I would have changed my opinion of what Srila Sarasvati Thakura wrote to that which is in accord with your perspective you wouldn't be saying that. Sorry, I don't cater to peoples expectations of what they think is right or wrong. As you say it is realization that is the key. I don't need people telling me that I cannot comment on the words of the previous acaryas. If they don't like that, too bad. They aint the boss of me, I've got one loud mouthed boss already and that's more then enough, and that authority supercedes everyone else.
Some things spoken by the GREAT Acaryas is not realistically applicable according to our time. Srila Prabhupada gave the adjustments. If one is just a little advanced, he can understand
So you are "just a little advanced" and I am not? Maybe so. But I'm sticken to my understanding regardless of what people who are "a little advanced" may have to say.
anon maharaja:
Relax homeboy. You may want to cut down on the sugar.Posted by Anon @ 12/05/2005 04:46 PM PST
To all: I will reveal myself at an opportune moment. And when I do, by Krsna's grace, the eyes of the demons will be blinded by the bright light of Bhagavatam and then ISKCON will be what it was always intended to be. A movement that will kill the demons (atheists) and protect the devotees and be the source for the lawbooks for the next 10,000 years to lead this world out of chaos. My advice to Rocana das and Shiva Das is to come into ISKCON and let us be pure insrumements for pushing on this ISKCON movement and cease this constant rambling and name-calling. Ksatriyas do not turn the other cheek. That time to act is upon us now.
Posted by Anon @ 12/05/2005 04:33 PM PST
Mark Prabhu: Then grab your sword and follow me! A sword in one hand and a Bhagavatam in the other. Let us lead ISKCON to new glory and march all the Vaisnavas into Jagganatha temple very soon. I'll be in the front lines, will you?
Posted by Mark @ 12/05/2005 02:09 PM PST
To the anonymous coward,
You, battle?
Don't make me laugh.
You won't even sign your own name.
Give up while the getting is good. You are obviously not one of the head cheese usurpers.
I know you are feeling like your head is about to pop right now, so take a deep breath.
See. If the Lord could show mercy on me, he will show it to you. Just collect your belongings, and get the hell away from all those fakers. If you can, rent a room, get a motel, call your family, anything.
Take responsibility for your worldly desires like a mature human being, then you can work your way into spiritual sadhana.
By the time you have done this, you will be drawn magnetically to those who can assist you further in your reclaiming of Krishna Consciousness.
or email me at Baladas247@netzero.com at that time and I'll be happy to assist.
Hare Krishna
y.s
MarkPosted by Mark @ 12/05/2005 01:55 PM PST
Dear BB Das,
You do not offend me. You do have a tendency to presume the position of others without merit, and I believe that you overestimate your own level of understanding.
That is my perception by my own discernment. I need to judge this way about everyone I meet in order to know who I am really dealing with.
Of course as you say, as long as one is Hearing from the lips of a pure devotee, and reading the authorized transcriptions of the Scriptures, ones Krishna Consciousness will naturally increase. So keep listening to tapes of pure devotees or hearing directly from their bodily form if you can find them, and read etc.
I will do the same.
If you wish to be part of what I and other disciples of Srila Prabhupada are doing to reclaim the corpus of Iskcon back into line with the Spirit of Iskcon, post your email addy, and I will keep in touch.
Dear Siva Das,
Though I agree with your assessment of how the Spiritual Masters movement becomes a mundane religious institution, I believe with Iskcon there is a twist.
If there is just one person (I believe there are more) who takes it to heart that Iskcon as dispensed by Srila Prabhupada was perfect, and that person endeavors to follow Srila Prabhupada's instructions exclusively (krpa-siddha), then the spirit of Iskcon lives on and Lord Nityananda himself will use that person(s) to Re-Form his original perfect plan.
Even while the corpus of Iskcon is so degraded and manipulated. The silver cord is still attached as far as I can tell.
Once that person and those associated with that person are successful in re-establishing Srila Prabhupada's perfect plan, it need not be called Iskcon.
Of course the spirit remains the same. So why not call it Iskcon once the corpus is cleaned and purged and reintegrated into the newly re-formed spiritual body? A small point, the essence is a larger matter obviously.
Thanks for your association.
Hare Krishna
y.s.
MarkPosted by Anon @ 12/05/2005 01:28 PM PST
Shiva das: Look Prabhu, you have things all wrong. Srila Sarasvati Thakura was not referring to the "Hare Krishna" movement when writing about "organized Religion" no matter what you say, he was referring to the world's religions in general devoid of bhakti etc. no matter how you interpret it. And CAPS are good for driving home a point. You and Rocana want th throw out all GBNC authgorized diksa gurus for your own nafarious designs and create, what? It won't work, dear.
As I've said before, Srila Prabhuipada said "Study the structure of the Catholic church. Dah!! "Church". "Structure" etc. He knew the ISKCON movement would be that big one day. ISKCON is going mainstream if you haven't noticed. And who will the thousands of thousands and millions of new-comers to ISKCON come to get initiated in the future? You? Rocana? I think not. Perhaps Danavir Maharaja, Trivrikrama Swami, Sankarshan Das Adhikari, and a score of other sincere souls who have dedicated their lives to Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON. I'd still like to take you out on the Battlefield of Kuruksetra and give you a good tummeling just for the fun of it. Throw Rocana in the mix too. I love to spar with demons in the morning.Posted by Hare Krsna @ 12/05/2005 01:27 PM PST
Dear Siva dasa,
To much of jnana and scrutizinigly reading between the lines is not good. We are not lawyers. Our goal is realization -we have to know how to understand jnana according to realization. You have to understand Bhaktisaddanta Sarasvati Thakur through the realisations of Srila Prabhupada. Some things spoken by the GREAT Acaryas is not realistically applicable according to our time. Srila Prabhupada gave the adjustments. If one is just a little advanced, he can understand.
No, I am not a rtvik, actually I agree with most of what you say.Posted by bb das @ 12/05/2005 12:59 PM PST
Hari Bol! Mark,
Becoming Krsna conscious and influencing others in that way I consider to be very practical and the ultimate real solution. Krsna is the Supreme Controller and Proprietor and He can make the “impossible possible” and the “possible impossible”.
I am not saying that we should not use our God given intelligence and abilities in these matters but, that without being in proper consciousness, we run the risk of making very serious mistakes; even if we are trying to be sincere. I don’t doubt that you are sincere.
We have to be completely purified and be under proper guidance, inside and out, in order to be really effective. That is why I quoted Srila Prabhupada’s saying that, “Purity is the Force”. That is MOST practical and will provide for the ultimate solution.
Believe me, I know where you’re coming from. All of my suffering led me to cry and cry and cry to Sri Guru and Krsna for help to figure out what in the hell is going on in this movement that I have dedicated my life to. The result was that Srila Prabhupada and Lord Krsna sent me the association of Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja. Maharaja made complete sense out of everything. My whole life completely changed after that. I am totally serious with you. The suffering forced me to cry and scream out to Srila Prabhupada and Lord Krsna and they mercifully gave me such nice Vaisnava shelter and association. That is my practical experience and continues to be.
This is the means to get such mercy and shelter. Use the difficult situations as an impetus to take complete shelter of Krsna and bona fide Vaisnavas. That is the most practical and honest thing I can share with you. Only Sri Guru and Krsna can save us. Bhaktivinoda Thakura prays like that. “Krsna you are my Supreme Protector and if you protect me who can kill me and if You want to kill me who can possibly save me.”
I am sorry if I offended you. I did not mean at all to do that. I just don’t see any other solution. Maybe some day all the devotees who feel the same can organize and plan to associate together in some way. Let us all continue to cry and pray and help each other as best we can.
Hari bol!
ys
bb dasPosted by shiva das @ 12/05/2005 12:15 PM PST
anaon and bb das, your arguments were just so much sentimentalism and demagoguery. If you took the time to examine what I wrote carefully you would see what my point was and what Srila Bhaktisiddhantas point was. I wasn't arguning that you shouldn't work in Iskcon, I was arguing that for someone to preach that Iskcon is the only way is a bogus philosophy. You guys may want to take the fanatic level down a notch. And what's with all CAPS? Makes it hard to read and makes you seem like a putz. Chill out homeboys, re-read what I wrote and think before you post.
The idea of an organized church in an intelligible form, indeed, marks the close of the living spiritual movement. The great ecclesiastical establishments are the dikes and dams to retain the current that cannot be held by any such contrivances. They, indeed, indicate a desire on the part of the masses to exploit a spiritual movement for their own purpose. They also unmistakably indicate the end of the absolute and unconventional guidance of the bona-fide spiritual teacher.
Try to understand the point Srila Sarasvati Thakura has made in the above. He is saying that surrendering to the bona fide spiritual master is the basis for true spiritual life. An organization which demands submission in the place of a bona fide spiritual master is what he is arguing agaisnt.
Of course your claim is that Srila Prabhupada is present in his organization. Here is how Srila Sarasvati Thakura argued against that ideology:But no mechanical regulation has any value, even for such a purpose. The bona-fide teacher of religion is neither any product of, nor the favourer of, any mechanical system. In his hands no system has likewise the chance of denigrating into a lifeless arrangement
Here he makse that point that a bona fide guru is not the prodduct of nor favors any organization or system, but if he controls that system then it won't become a lifeless arrangement.
So the point is that the organization is valuable as long as the bona fide spiritual master has control over it. When he is no longer in control then it becomes:The mere pursuit of fixed doctrines and fixed liturgies cannot hold a person to the true spirit of doctrine or liturgy.
The idea of an organized church in an intelligible form, indeed, marks the close of the living spiritual movement.
What he is saying does apply to Iskcon and Iskcon is an organized church contrary to some foolish statements. He is saying that once the bona fide spiritual master is no longer in control of the organization and the organization turns into promoting fixed doctrines and liturgies, that alone does not have the potency to bring people to the true spiritual purpose of the those doctrines and liturgies. He mentions the "living spiritual movement". His point is that real spiritual life is based of the guidance of the bona fide spiritual master, if an organization tries to take that position or promote people to act in that position, then that marks the end of the living spiritual movement.
It becomes something less then the living spiritual movement which is based on surrender to the bona fide spiritual master. In it's place there are appointed bishops, and popes, and so on. His main point is that you cannot appoint spiritual leadership. "The bona-fide teacher of religion is neither any product of, nor the favourer of, any mechanical system"
So before you Iskcon fanatics get yer skirts in a twist, try and understand what Srila Sarasvati Thakura is saying. Just more repetition from your arsenal of unrelated quotes to try and refute Srila Sarasvati Thakura is rather childish dontcha think?Posted by Mark @ 12/05/2005 11:56 AM PST
Dear BB Das.
Someone must be crying pretty hard for myself and others to be coming up with plans such as these. (Yes I am not acting alone).
The problem is obvious. I am a practical minded, solution oriented person.
I have cried profusely myself and the benefit of that sincerity has been to see clearly how to deal with envious people who usurp power.
As for their apologists, though victims themselves, they are almost as bad, and will thus get what they desire and deserve.
You are responding to my hard-nosed practical suggestions with platitudes which convey an underlying message of "you are not purified yet. Take some good association, forget about these problems you see until you are pure enough to see the real answers."
Well if that is so, tell me what your practical offerings are to all the current real time victims other than "if you are serious and sincere, Krishna will empower you to change the situation or send someone else to help you out."
You either be that person, or not. Telling a beaten down person to be more serious and sincere is horse@#$*.
Your choice.
Hare Krishna
y.s.
MarkPosted by bb das @ 12/05/2005 11:14 AM PST
Dear Mark,
You wrote:
There is nothing easy about becoming and staying Krishna Conscious. The program is simple though; follow the instructions of the Spiritual Master at all costs.
There are some good people who are acting within the structure of the co-opted corpus of ISKCON. They are right in their determination, yet finding themselves victims of the sophistry of those who took the highest power positions, have not had the ability to effect a counter-coup to this date.
Response:
Krsna consciousness will “effect a counter- coup”. If one is serious and sincere, by their Krsna consciousness, Krsna will work through them to change the situation, or Krsna will send one and empower him to change them or He will get you our of such an incorrigible situation, especially if we are in a weakened situation.
You wrote:
Victims need support in my opinion.
Response:
If you are in proper Vaisnava association, by the mercy of Sri Guru and Krsna, you will never feel yourself a victim or become a victim. Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja taught us that in such a situation you should cry out to the Lord for help and proper association and He will make ALL the necessary arrangements to help you. He will send to you an empowered devotee(s) who can help you or will get you out of such an unacceptable situation and give you shelter in association of sincere devotees. Krsna knows what we need and will make the necessary arrangements.
We simply have to learn to cry for Krsna and His sincere and empowered bhaktas to help us. They will come to you or will bring you to them. It is simply based on our need and desire. We should never feel that we have to accept such a horrible situation.
You wrote:
Srila Prabhupada, the previous acharyas, and thus the Lord, ARE purifying and rectifying the Krsna Consciousness Movement each time one of their DISCIPLES stands up for the truth, and puts envious usurpers in their place.
Response:
That is certainly true but, we have to make sure that WE properly understand the TRUTH and are then authorized and empowered by Sri Guru and Gauranga to Preach it; then it will have full effect. Srila Prabhpada said, “Purity is the Force”.
Haribol!
ys
bb dasPosted by Mark @ 12/05/2005 09:17 AM PST
Dear BB Das,
There is nothing easy about becoming and staying Krishna Conscious. The program is simple though, follow the instructions of the Spiritual Master at all costs.
There are some good people who are acting within the structure of the co-opted corpus of ISKCON. They are right in their determination, yet finding themselves victims of the sophistry of those who took the highest power postitions, have not had the ability to effect a counter-coup to this date.
Victims need support in my opinion.
No matter how close they think they are to changing things, each time they make the compromise to cow tow to a "GBC Acharya", thinking "I'll just make this one more concession, and get em next time," they reveal their level of impotent victimization.
They have underestimated the power of envious persons in power. They have overestimated their own adhikari and consider themselves pure enough to "Turn the dead".
They are well intentioned, yet in illusion and need help.
From the outside. As I described.
Srila Prabhupada, the previous acharyas, and thus the Lord, ARE purifying and rectifying the Krsna Consciousness Movement each time one of their DISCIPLES stands up for the truth, and puts envious usurpers in their place.
I have not forgotton whose movement Iskcon is. On the contrary, knowing that helps me to do the difficult thing, which is to stand up to this challenge.
Anything less is a cop out.
Hare Krisna
y.s.
MarkPosted by bb das @ 12/05/2005 07:53 AM PST
Mark, I have an easier method. Become Krsna conscious in the assembly of sincere like minded devotees, try to help as many souls as possible to do the same and allow Srila Prabhupada, the previous acaryas and the Lord to purify and rectify their own movement.
Don't forget, according to Srila Prabhupada, "Iskcon is Mahaprabhu's Movement"; which will go on for the next Ten Thousand years, with us or without us!
ys
bb dasPosted by Mark @ 12/05/2005 07:34 AM PST
Dear Devotees,
Many good points have been presented. Yet it is good to remember that a person may present many true points, and among them one subtle untruth due to the need to foster an agenda. This technique is known as disinformation.
What I am experiencing here is very similar to what I am experiencing in America. In America there are people who by hook or (usually) by crook have obtained offices of power within the government. However, in their hearts they do not adhere to the principles that the government was founded on. Then when they make policy decisions which are in the interest of furthering their own goals, and are detrimental to the people they represent, and they are criticized, they claim those criticizing them are anti-government and anti-patriotic, and should be locked up in prison.
This same thing happened back in the early 1700’s when the King of England and Church of England attempted to act against the principles of their own constitutions and unfairly tax and religiously manipulate the colonists.
So some men decided to start anew and go back to the principles they knew of, implement them themselves, and live the best they knew how. But first they had to fight off those who were trying to enslave them.
When Srila Prabhupada left India, he was never leaving the principles of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta’s vision for a divinely guided material institution. He took them with him in his heart, gathered up some willing participants, and instituted the plan under a different name. ISKCON. Toward the end of his personal oversight of the organization of this institution, he made it clear that it was, on the institutional level to resemble Varnasharama Dharma, where the devotees within were acting their roles according to their material tendencies. There are an abundance of direct quotes on this matter, anyone can find on the internet. This was no mundanely religious institution in the bastardized sense but the reinitiation of the Divinely guided Varnashrama institution, which can be utilized by materialists to gradually come to God consciousness.
Once Srila Prabhupada disappeared, we saw that Iskcon was, at the top, the head, at the leadership guiding level, co-opted by bogus philosophy.
Thus like the current American government, it is Iskcon in name, but not in spirit.
Since something without spirit cannot last, the desperate heads of such organizations resort to anything to keep its victims under their yoke. For example.
Within the publishing office of Iskcon today, we see that some person has taken the authority to make the following change to a purport of Srila Prabhupada’s from CC Madhya 19.157
Original Verse translation…
The gardener must defend the creeper by fencing it all around so that the powerful elephant of offenses may not enter.
I will only present the paragraph with the change in it. For the entire context, anyone can find this purport online.
Original Purport: “If one thinks that there are many pseudo devotees or nondevotees in the Krsna Consciousness Society, one can keep direct company with the spiritual master, and if there is any doubt, one should consult the spiritual master.”
The changed purport:
“..Even if one thinks that there are many pseudo devotees or nondevotees in the Krishna Consciousness Society, still one should stick to the Society; if one thinks the Society’s members are not pure devotees, one can keep direct company with the spiritual master, and if there is any doubt, one should consult the spiritual master.”
Cc madhya19.157
“If one thinks that there are many pseudo devotees or nondevotees in the Krsna Consciousness Society, one can keep direct company with the spiritual master, and if there is any doubt, one should consult the spiritual master.”
So how can we reconcile the fact that Srila Prabhupada dispensed the perfect Divine Organization called Iskcon, with the fact that it has been co-opted by envious persons.
We know that Envious persons by definition are to be neglected by all but pure devotees.
They certainly cannot be responsible for the well being of Women, children, other men, and the cows.
Iskcon lives on in spirit and should never be given up by sincere disciples of Srila Prabhupada.
Each sincere disciple thus has a responsibility individually act according to the rules and regulations of Iskcon. This includes cooperating with other sincere disciples in order to Re – Form Iskcon according to Srila Prabhupada’s stated goals. This will include recovering all intellectual and physical properties from the Co-opted Iskcon via the presiding legal methods in each Country. Once all property of Iskcon is returned to the stewardship of those who carried the spirit of Iskcon in their heart, Iskcon will be re-formed, and will still be called Iskcon.
In the meantime.
This will include each individual Seceding from the current corporate Iskcon’s activities. Secession is different from rebellion in that implicit in secession is faith in the spirit of the original union.
Secession allows for the possibility of reuniting.
Each devotee could call their secessionist stance whatever they choose. The movement on a whole could be called a reformation movement by definition. I would call my home an Iskcon reform temple until Iskcon proper is restored.
In terms of secession, if Iskcon is re-formed according to Srila Prabhupada’s wishes by sincere disciples, what is there to reunite with?
The envious persons within the current co-opted Iskcon.
Those people who have co-opted the governance of Iskcon have committed so many various crimes and misdemeanors.
But if they are hearing from a pure devotee (listening to lectures and kirtana from Srila Prabhupada) and reading books, and following the rules and regs, even they may make advancement.
So the devotees of the newly reformed Iskcon, can then choose to show mercy on the envious by making some careful arrangement where the envious are in a geographical position where they will not have the capability of harming anyone, and at the same time have full access to the pure devotees through hearing and reading. And very senior devotees could possibly minister to them.
I have seen this coming for a long time. I have stuck my neck out in an underground grassroots movement which is reforming America, and have actually lost comrades to death for their efforts. This is no small thing. I am now prepared to transfer my understandings of such endeavors to the above mentioned project. It is my sincere hope that others will do so as well, and I understand that so many have taken these steps already years ago, and are working toward such a reunion, I just thought I would state my understanding of this process and hope it benefits someone.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada! All glories to Sri Krsna-Chaitanya. All glories to the assembled devotees.
y.s.
MarkPosted by bb das @ 12/05/2005 03:16 AM PST
No Siva YOU missed the point.
THE POINT AGAIN FOR YOU:
The Gaudiya Math had already disqualified themselves as the Institution Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati set up PRIOR to Srila Prabhupada ever having to start his own Institution. Srila Prabhupada would NEVER HAVE LEFT the Institution of his Revered Spiritual Master nor would he ever disobey his Spiritual Master’s direct orders.
Here is what Srila Prabhupada has said about Iskcon and then NOT leaving his Iskcon Society;
Prabhupada: IF I SAY THAT “I AM ISKCON,” WHAT IS THE WRONG THERE? BECAUSE I HAVE CREATED THIS; THEREFORE I SAY, “ISKCON MEANS I. I AM ISKCON.” SO WHAT IS THE WRONG THERE? IT IS LIKE THAT.
CC Adi 10.160:
IT IS NOT OUR BUSINESS TO CRITICIZE ANYONE, BUT BECAUSE THEY TRY TO FIND FAULT WITH THIS MOVEMENT, THE REAL TRUTH MUST BE STATED. SRI CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU WANTED DEVOTEES ALL OVER THE WORLD, AND SRILA BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI THAKURA AND SRILA BHAKTIVINODA THAKURA CONFIRMED THIS. IT IS IN PURSUIT OF THEIR WILL THAT THE ISKCON MOVEMENT IS SPREADING ALL OVER THE WORLD. GENUINE DEVOTEES OF LORD CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU MUST TAKE PRIDE IN THE SPREAD OF THE KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS MOVEMENT INSTEAD OF VICIOUSLY CRITICIZING ITS PROPAGANDA WORK.
Conversation with the GBC--
Los Angeles, May 25, 1972,
NOW SOMETHING IS IN YOUR HAND—KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS. THAT WAS MY PLAN THAT I SHALL CARRY THIS BAGGAGE AND GIVE IT TO THE AMERICANS AND THEY WILL DISTRIBUTE. THAT WAS MY PLAN, THEREFORE I CAME TO AMERICA. SO NOW YOU ARE SO MANY BOYS, YOUNG BOYS, YOU HAVE UNDERSTOOD. SO DO IT AND GIVE ME RELIEF. I remain in the background. Let me finish my Bhagavata Puraëa and those who are assisting in the writing, I’ll be there (indistinct).
THAT THIS INSTITUTION, ISKCON WILL GIVE TO THE WORLD SO MANY VALUABLE JEWELS.
….THERE IS NO COMPARISON.
CC Adi 12.8 Purport:
“TO ONE WHO HAS STAUNCH FAITH IN THE WORDS OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER AND THE WORDS OF THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, THE SECRET OF SUCCESS IN VEDIC KNOWLEDGE IS REVEALED.” The Kåñëa consciousness movement is being propagated according to this principle, and therefore our preaching work is going on successfully, in spite of the many impediments offered by antagonistic demons, because WE ARE GETTING POSITIVE HELP FROM OUR PREVIOUS ACARYAS. ONE MUST JUDGE EVERY ACTION BY ITS RESULT. THE MEMBERS OF THE SELF-APPOINTED ACARYA’S PARTY WHO OCCUPIED THE PROPERTY OF THE GAUDIYA MATHA ARE SATISFIED, BUT THEY COULD MAKE NO PROGRESS IN PREACHING. THEREFORE BY THE RESULT OF THEIR ACTIONS ONE SHOULD KNOW THAT THEY ARE ASARA, OR USELESS, WHEREAS THE SUCCESS OF THE ISKCON PARTY, THE INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY FOR KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS, WHICH STRICTLY FOLLOWS GURU AND GAURANGA, IS INCREASING DAILY ALL OVER THE WORLD.
BG Preface
OUR KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS MOVEMENT IS GENUINE, HISTORICALLY AUTHORIZED, NATURAL AND TRANSCENDENTAL DUE TO ITS BEING BASED ON BHAGAVAD-GITA AS IT IS. IT IS GRADUALLY BECOMING THE MOST POPULAR MOVEMENT IN THE ENTIRE WORLD, ESPECIALLY AMONGST THE YOUNGER GENERATION. IT IS BECOMING MORE AND MORE INTERESTING TO THE OLDER GENERATION ALSO. OLDER GENTLEMEN ARE BECOMING INTERESTED, SO MUCH SO THAT THE FATHERS AND GRANDFATHERS OF MY DISCIPLES ARE ENCOURAGING US BY BECOMING LIFE MEMBERS OF OUR GREAT SOCIETY, THE INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY FOR KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS.
Letter to: Friends--
Los Angeles
23 May, 1972
72-05-23
My Dear Friends,
… ACTUALLY OUTSIDE OF OUR BONA FIDE KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS CENTERS, THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY OF FINDING OUT WHAT KRISHNA DOES OR DOES NOT WANT….UNLESS THERE IS CONNECTION WITH A BONA FIDE SPIRITUAL MASTER, COMING IN THE LINE OF DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION, THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY OF MAKING PROGRESS IN SPIRITUAL LIFE. SO I HAVE ESTABLISHED ISKCON CENTERS FOR THE PURPOSE OF CATCHING UP THE LOTUS FEET OF KRISHNA BY INTIMATE CONNECTION WITH THE SPIRITUAL MASTER. THESE ARE MY AUTHORIZED CENTERS FOR THAT PURPOSE. YOU SAY THAT WHATEVER I INSTRUCT YOU YOU WILL CARRY OUT, SO AGAIN MY INSTRUCTION IS THAT YOU ABANDON THIS INDEPENDENT SCHEME AND JOIN YOUR GOOD GOD-BROTHERS AND SISTERS AT SOME ONE OF OUR ISKCON CENTERS.
Letter to: Babhru--
Los Angeles
9 December, 1973
73-12-09
NOW, WE HAVE BY KRSNA'S GRACE BUILT UP SOMETHING SIGNIFICANT IN THE SHAPE OF THIS ISKCON AND WE ARE ALL ONE FAMILY. SOMETIMES THERE MAY BE DISAGREEMENT AND QUARREL BUT WE SHOULD NOT GO AWAY. THESE INEBRIETIES CAN BE ADJUSTED BY THE COOPERATIVE SPIRIT, TOLERANCE AND MATURITY SO I REQUEST YOU TO KINDLY REMAIN IN THE ASSOCIATION OF OUR DEVOTEES AND WORK TOGETHER. THE TEST OF OUR ACTUAL DEDICATION AND SINCERITY TO SERVE THE SPIRITUAL MASTER WILL BE IN THIS MUTUAL COOPERATIVE SPIRIT TO PUSH ON THIS MOVEMENT AND NOT MAKE FACTIONS AND DEVIATE. Try to convince Gaurasundara and Siddha-svarupa to RETURN TO ISKCON and let us forget whatever has happened in the past.
Çrémad-Bhägavatam 1.16.19--
Hawaii, January 15, 1974:
Prabhupäda: THAT IS UP TO YOU TO JUDGE—BY THE RESULT. IF THEY ARE ACTUALLY ADVANCED, WHY THEY SHOULD LEAVE THIS COMPANY OF ISKCON? THEREFORE, I KNOW THEY’RE VERY GOOD SOULS. THEY MIGHT HAVE DONE SOME MISTAKE OUT OF MISUNDERSTANDING, BUT YOU INVITE THEM TO COME BACK AGAIN AND TAKE THEIR POSITION. IT IS NOT VERY GOOD SIGN THAT THEY HAVE LEFT. THEY’LL NEVER BE HAPPY. THAT’S A FACT.
Letter to: Tusta Krsna :--
New Delhi
7 November, 1973
73-11-07
…If there is any misunderstanding with the GBC men, that can be readjusted by mutual understanding. I wanted to see you all to mitigate this misunderstanding, but I was very busy in Bombay for the same Juhu land of Mr. Nair. …
SO KINDLY TAKE MY WORD AND DO NOT LEAVE OUR SOCIETY. IF YOU CANNOT AGREE WITH THE GBC, I CAN TAKE UP YOUR MATTER PERSONALLY AND DO THE NEEDFUL. I LOVE YOU ALL VERY MUCH, AND IF YOU GO AWAY AND STAY INDEPENDENTLY THAT WILL BE A GREAT SHOCK FOR ME. I want to meet you all together. Let me know where I shall go to meet you. Just now I have received the news that in Hawaii the tulsi plants are drying for want of watering. How has Govinda dasi left the tulsi plants which she nourished so lovingly? PLEASE THEREFORE ALL OF YOU GO TO YOUR RESPECTIVE POSITIONS AND REVIVE YOUR DEVOTIONAL ACTIVITIES WITHOUT ANY FURTHER DELAY, AND IF YOU CANNOT COPE WITH THE GBC MEN, WHICH I SUPPOSE THERE MUST HAVE BEEN SOME DISAGREEMENT, I SHALL DEAL WITH YOU DIRECTLY. BUT, DO NOT LEAVE THE KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS MOVEMENT, AT ANY COST.
If possible kindly let me know where is Gaurasundara. On my behalf please request him to come back to the temple and save the tulsi plants. Ask Govinda dasi also on my behalf to do this without delay.
Kindly treat this letter as very urgent and do the needful. Awaiting your early reply.
I hope this meets you in good health.
Your ever well wisher,
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Letter to: Upendra--
Nairobi
9 October, 1971
71-10-09
Melbourne
PLEASE NOW STICK THERE AND DEVELOP THAT CENTER. THERE IS NO QUESTION OF LEAVING OUR SOCIETY. ONE MAY THINK LIKE THAT BUT I CANNOT ALLOW YOU TO LEAVE. THAT IS MY INSPIRATION. THOSE WHO HAVE LEFT THE SOCIETY I AM ALWAYS THINKING OF THEM. ESPECIALLY FOR YOU THERE IS NO QUESTION OF LEAVING. STAY IN MELBOURNE AND PREACH WITH STEADY DETERMINATION. …DON'T BE AGITATED BY TRIFLE THINGS. REMAIN STEADY AND GO ON WITH PREACHING WORK. KRISHNA WILL HELP YOU IN EVERY WAY. I am so pleased with you that you have done so nicely in the service of the Lord to your best capacity. That is required. It is not that everyone should be equally expert. But the thing that is needed is that we should be serious and sincere in our engagement.
Letter to: Friends--
Los Angeles
23 May, 1972
72-05-23
My Dear Friends,
… ACTUALLY OUTSIDE OF OUR BONA FIDE KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS CENTERS, THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY OF FINDING OUT WHAT KRISHNA DOES OR DOES NOT WANT. We say ``We feel that Krishna wills this for us.'' But I feel Krishna does not. So whose feelings will be all right? You say that you are following the regulative principles, so if you are following the regulative principles, why you will not cooperate? If by following the regulative principles you do not become devotees, and you can not appreciate other devotees, then what is the use of these regulative principles? If you are actually chanting regularly 16 rounds, holding sankirtana daily, reading our books as much as possible, like that, then I THINK YOU WILL FEEL THAT SUCH PROGRAM OF LIVING SEPARATELY, AWAY FROM OUR KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS PROGRAM IS A GREAT MISTAKE.
… I am very much encouraged that you are all chanting Hare Krishna and trying to become Krishna Conscious. But I do not advise that you approach the matter of perfecting your life in this independent way. UNLESS THERE IS CONNECTION WITH A BONA FIDE SPIRITUAL MASTER, COMING IN THE LINE OF DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION, THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY OF MAKING PROGRESS IN SPIRITUAL LIFE. SO I HAVE ESTABLISHED ISKCON CENTERS FOR THE PURPOSE OF CATCHING UP THE LOTUS FEET OF KRISHNA BY INTIMATE CONNECTION WITH THE SPIRITUAL MASTER. THESE ARE MY AUTHORIZED CENTERS FOR THAT PURPOSE. YOU SAY THAT WHATEVER I INSTRUCT YOU YOU WILL CARRY OUT, SO AGAIN MY INSTRUCTION IS THAT YOU ABANDON THIS INDEPENDENT SCHEME AND JOIN YOUR GOOD GOD-BROTHERS AND SISTERS AT SOME ONE OF OUR ISKCON CENTERS.
Hoping this meets you in good health.
Your ever well-wisher,
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Letter to: Krsna dasa--
San Francisco
3 April, 1969
69-04-03:
In the first portion of the letter you have expressed your desire how to learn surrender. This surrendering process is unconditional. Surrendering does not mean that one should surrender only in favorable circumstances. That is not surrender. SURRENDER MEANS IN ANY CONDITION THE SURRENDERING PROCESS MUST CONTINUE. IN THE LATTER PORTION OF YOUR LETTER IT APPEARS THAT YOU HAVE BEEN DISTURBED ON SOME TRIVIAL MATTERS, AND YOU WISH TO LEAVE THE PLACE AND GO TO LONDON. THAT IS NOT AT ALL GOOD. YOU MUST WORK CONJOINTLY. THAT IS MY DESIRE, AND IF YOU FIGHT AMONGST YOURSELVES FOR SOME INDIVIDUAL INTERESTS, THAT IS NOT SURRENDER. Whatever the other two boys may do, that I shall see, but unto you my request is that you must remain in Hamburg until I order you to leave the place…. SO YOU HAVE TO ADJUST THINGS BY THE INDICATION OF LORD KRISHNA. DON'T DO ANYTHING WHIMSICALLY. THE DIRECTION COMES THROUGH THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, AND ANY ONE WHO ABIDES BY THE ORDER OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER TO GIVE SHAPE TO THE WISH OF THE LORD, HE IS PERFECTLY SURRENDERED SOUL. SO DON'T BE CHILDISH, STAY THERE…. In the material world there is competition, but the center is sense gratification. That is the difference. So competition, disagreement, or even dissension, if they are there, and the center is Krishna, such disagreement is not material. Even in Krishna Loka, there are rival parties of Srimati Radharani whose name is Candrabali, and there is competition between the two parties how to serve Krishna the best.
SO YOU ARE ALL GOOD SOULS, PLEASE DO NOT BE AGITATED IN TRIVIAL THINGS. DO YOUR DUTY NICELY, DEVELOP THE CENTER AS NICELY AS POSSIBLE. IF YOU THINK THAT YOUR PERSONALITY HAS BEEN MINIMIZED, YOU CAN TOLERATE IT. THAT IS VERY NICE. LORD CAITANYA HAS TAUGHT US TO BE MORE TOLERANT THAN THE TREE IN THE MATTER OF CHANTING HARE KRISHNA, HARE KRISHNA, KRISHNA KRISHNA, HARE HARE.
Letter to: Govinda--
New Delhi
11 November, 1973
73-11-11
Ookala, Hawaii
My Dear Govinda devi dasi:
Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter undated and have noted the contents carefully. I DO NOT KNOW WHY YOU HAVE PARTED FROM THE DEITIES. WHO HAS TOLD YOU TO DO THIS? IF YOU ARE AT ALL INTERESTED, YOU CAN RETURN. YOUR SERVICE WAS THERE. WHY DID YOU LEAVE, AND NOW YOU ARE WHIMSICALLY ASKING FOR SERVICE. YOU NEVER ASKED ME BEFORE LEAVING. HOW CAN I GUIDE YOU? IF YOU ACT WHIMSICALLY, NOBODY CAN MAKE YOU HAPPY.
In Honolulu tulsi is drying, and you have left this service. You introduced tulsi, and they are drying for want of water. Gaurasundara said to live alone, but our policy is to live with devotees. Immediately return and live with devotees and take care of the Deities and tulsi. That is our main business. My Guru Maharaja condemned living alone in a lonely place.
…Why I have opened this Society. I was living with four children, and now I have 4,000. There is no good in living alone.
Sb. 4.22.23 Purport:
The purport is that one cannot live outside the society of devotees; one must live in the association of devotees, where there is constant chanting and hearing of the glories of the Lord. THE KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS MOVEMENT IS STARTED FOR THIS PURPOSE, SO THAT HUNDREDS OF ISKCON CENTERS MAY GIVE PEOPLE A CHANCE TO HEAR AND CHANT, TO ACCEPT THE SPIRITUAL MASTER AND TO DISASSOCIATE THEMSELVES FROM PERSONS WHO ARE MATERIALLY INTERESTED, FOR IN THIS WAY ONE CAN MAKE SOLID ADVANCEMENT IN GOING BACK HOME, BACK TO GODHEAD.
NOI 2:
SIMILARLY, WE HAVE ESTABLISHED THE INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY FOR KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS TO GIVE PEOPLE AN OPPORTUNITY TO ASSOCIATE WITH THOSE WHO HAVE NOT FORGOTTEN KRSNA. THIS SPIRITUAL ASSOCIATION OFFERED BY OUR ISKCON MOVEMENT IS INCREASING DAY BY DAY. MANY PEOPLE FROM DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE WORLD ARE JOINING THIS SOCIETY TO AWAKEN THEIR DORMANT KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS.
I hope that makes it easier for one to see what Srila Prabhupada's opinion is on this topic. Who cares how we "feel" or what we "think".
Your servant,
bb dasPosted by Anon @ 12/05/2005 12:08 AM PST
Shiva Das: With all due respect, you are so far off base with your latest posting that I find it incredulous and unbelievable. You are wrong on ALL counts and by the way, we have all read "Organized Religion" many, many times and it doesn't apply in this case. BB das is correct as I said before.
What you fail to understand are these very essential truths:
1. Had Srila Prabhupada never left India to come to America the Gaudya Math that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta started would have never evolved into chaos because he would have been it's main rudder. From a transcenedental perspective Krsna brought about the demise of the math (a materil trick by the divine) for one purpose and one purpose ONLY, to bring Srila Prabhupada to western shores in 1965 to start the Vedic revolution.
2. ISKCON worldwide is Srila Prabhupada's transcendental body and that of Sri Krsna-Caitanya and was established based on the orders of Srila Prabhupada's spiritual master. It will continue and become stronger despite yours and Rocana das's ravings.
3. ISKCON does not fall into the category of a religion that is "organized" and I refute you to show evidence that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was unconsciously referring to today's ISKCON as being such because if you defy or deny ISKCON and the work that is being done than you defy and deny your spiritual master, namely, HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.
Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, Srila Bhati vinoda Thakura, Gaura Kisora Das Babaji, Jagganatha das Babji were all one in heart and mind and they were all empowered souls. Now come on, did you really believe that the peevish debate that has transpired on this site could actually disuade serious empassioned devotees of anything less than that? Think about it.Posted by shiva das @ 12/04/2005 09:56 PM PST
bb das you missed the point. The point was that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta wanted the devotees to work within the Gaudiya Math and Srila Prabhupada wanted the devotees to work within Iskcon. According to your philosophy it was alright to leave the Gaudiya Math but it is not alright to leave Iskcon. How do you figure? How is there any difference? In both cases we see devotees who split off from the parent organization and started their own missions, Srila Prabhupada included. So the point is that even though Srila Prabhupada and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta wanted the devotees to work under one organization circumstances arose in both cases where devotees felt they had no choice but to start new missions.
You can preach that Iskcon is the only way because Srila Prabhupada wanted everyone to work within Iskcon, but that was not an order to his disciples, it was a general request to everyone. He knew from his own experience that circumstances can arise where devotees cannot work together under the same organization. If you want to believe that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has limited empowering vaisnavas to spread his message to Iskcon, so be it. I reject that philosophy. Religious organizations are not living beings whom we must serve. The path of perfection in spiritual life is to serve the spiritual master, not an institution that he may have created. The memory alone of the Maha Bhagvata spiritual master is not enough to give an institution the bona fides of being eternally capable as being the perfect or only repository of our service to that spiritual master. The real service to the absolute is not bound by walls nor is it bound by the mental walls of institutional fealty. The best course for the aspiring servant of Godhead is to find and surrender to a living spiritual master regardless of his affiliation. If such a person is not found then you will be led according to your karma to the destination which suits your particular predisposition to devotional life.
Organized Religion
by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur...The original purpose of the established churches of the world may not always be objectionable. But no stable religious arrangement for instructing the masses has yet been successful. The Supreme Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, in pursuance of the teachings of the scriptures enjoins all absence of conventionalism for the teachers of the eternal religion. It does not follow that the mechanical adoption of the unconventional life by any person will make him a fit teacher of religion. Regulation is necessary for controlling the inherent worldliness of conditioned souls.
But no mechanical regulation has any value, even for such a purpose. The bona-fide teacher of religion is neither any product of, nor the favourer of, any mechanical system. In his hands no system has likewise the chance of denigrating into a lifeless arrangement. The mere pursuit of fixed doctrines and fixed liturgies cannot hold a person to the true spirit of doctrine or liturgy.
The idea of an organized church in an intelligible form, indeed, marks the close of the living spiritual movement. The great ecclesiastical establishments are the dikes and dams to retain the current that cannot be held by any such contrivances. They, indeed, indicate a desire on the part of the masses to exploit a spiritual movement for their own purpose. They also unmistakably indicate the end of the absolute and unconventional guidance of the bona-fide spiritual teacher. The people of this world understand preventive systems, they have no idea at all of the unprevented positive eternal life. Neither can there be any earthy contrivance for the permanent preservation of the life eternal on this mundane plane on the popular scale.
Those are, therefore, greatly mistaken who are disposed to look forward to the amelioration of the worldly state in any worldly sense from the worldly success of any really spiritual movement. It is these worldly expectants who become the patrons of the mischievous race of the pseudo-teachers of religion, the Putanas, whose congenial function is to stifle the theistic disposition at the very moment of its suspected appearance. But the theistic disposition can never be stifled by the efforts of those Putanas. The Putanas have power only over the atheist. It is a thankless but salutary task which they perform for the benefit of their unwilling victims.
But as soon as theistic disposition proper makes its appearance in the pure cognitive essence of the awakened soul, the Putanas are decisively silenced at the very earliest stage of their encounter with the new-born Krishna. The would-be slayer of herself slain. This is the reward of the negative services that the Putanas unwittingly render to the cause of theism by strangling all hypocritical demonstrations against their own hypocrisy.
But Putana does not at all like to receive her reward in only form which involves the total destruction of her wrong personality. King Kamsa also does not like to lose the services of the most trusted of his agents. The effective silencing of the whole race of pseudo-teachers of religion is the first clear indication of the appearance of the Absolute on the mundane plane. The bona-fide teacher of the Absolute, heralds the Advent of Krishna by his uncompromising campaign against the pseudo-teachers of religion.Posted by Anon @ 12/04/2005 09:34 PM PST
BB Das is correct and it appears that the references to Gour Govinda Swami's letters is the "smoking gun" that should shoot down the incredible disagreements that have been posted thus far on SS. This recent posting should essentially end the debate. No one ever wins in this kind of debate. Again, I think it would do Rocana and others good if they take this debate to another forum and leave SS with the interesting articles, pictures, photos and articles. The point being that we must push this ISKCON movement forward.
Posted by bb das @ 12/04/2005 08:32 PM PST
Dear Siva Prabhu,
Sastra says we should strictly follow the orders of our Spiritual Master.
In this case, Srila Prabhupada has clearly asked his disciples and followers not to leave his Society of Iskcon; regardless of the tests.
The Gaudiya Math had already disqualified themselves as the Institution Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati set up prior to Srila Prabhupada ever having to start his own Institution. Srila Prabhupada would never have left the Institution of his Revered Spiritual Master nor would he ever disobey his direct orders.
Iskcon was Srila Prabhupada’s arrangement to go back strictly to the original intent of Sarasvati Thakura’s instructions and desire of his Gaudiya Math Mission to spread the Holy Name in every town and village. Srila Prabhupada invited all of his godbrothers to give up the politics and fighting within the splintered Gaudiya Mathas and to cooperate with this mandate and intention of strictly following the original instructions and desires of Sarasvati Thakura.
I said that if there is a bona fide Sadhu we should take their association, but if that means that devotees of Srila Prabhupada would end up disregarding his instructions, give up their Guru seva and leave their Spiritual Master’s Institution then I believe Srila Prabhupada would not be happy. Here is what Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja has said in a letter on this topic:
Dear Gudakesa das
Hare Krsna. Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Thank you for your letter, undated. I have gone through it carefully and noted the contents.
My opinion is that Srila Prabhupada will not be happy with these senior devotees going outside of ISKCON.
Srila Prabhupada has said that everything is in his books. If you try to understand this, then by the mercy of Srila Prabhupada it will all be made clear to you.
It is a fact that if an elevated Vaisnava is there, then one should go and take his association. There is no harm in that. But in this case there is a danger that the discipline in our organization will be affected adversely. If the leaders are going outside of ISKCON, how will we be able to maintain discipline? Srila Prabhupada has formed this Society, and this threat to his society will only cause him pain.
With this consideration, they should not go. That will only lead to indiscipline in our society.
Two sides are there; philosophical and organizational. On the organizational side, this practice is not good. Therefore we have this GBC body which makes so many rules to maintain the discipline of the members of our society. But how will we be able to keep discipline now? No one will listen, 'if the leaders are going, why should we listen, we will also go'.
This will create only trouble.
May this letter find you in the best of health and a blissful mood of Krsna consciousness.
Your servant
Gour Govinda Swami Dated 3/11/94
and,
Dear Goloka Vrndavan das,
Hare Krsna. May you have the blessings of Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga all the time. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Thank you for your letter dated Oct., 23 1993, which I have just received. I have gone through it carefully and noted the contents.
You mention that many devotees are loosing faith in ISKCON and are leaving our society to find shelter elsewhere. That is not good. They should not leave Iskcon; that will never please Srila Prabhupada.
Develop patience and tolerance, and pray to Srila Prabhupada from the core of your heart. How is it that he will not help you?...
I hope this letter finds you in good health and a blissful mood of Krsna consciousness,
Yours in the service of Srila Prabhupada
Gour Govinda Swami. Dated 18/12/93
There are certainly pure devotees outside of Iskcon but, if by their association we disregard the Instructions and leave the Institution and seva of our Spiritual Master then it is not worth it. My faith is that Srila Prabhupada will make all arrangements for us. He knows what we need and can do it.
We have to just have faith and patience.
Thank you.
ys
bb dasPosted by shiva das @ 12/04/2005 05:37 PM PST
bb das you wrote:
It seems that in most cases those that take siksa outside Iskcon end up leaving Iskcon.
There are many vaisnavas not in Iskcon, like many here, is their siksa not of any value simply because they are not in Iskcon?
You also said:It is true that we should hear from bona fide sadhu, but when it ends up that everyone leaves Prabhupada's Movement I think Srila Prabhupada would not be happy.
But what about people who aren't in Iskcon?
When you said this:I am speaking philosophy Maharaja. When you are not free from anarthas, you cannot hear Sri Guru properly; therefore one must seek out a bona fide siksa guru (within Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon) and hear from him. If not, one is prone to make mistake after mistake.
You made the mistake of taking a philosophical point and then putting that into the caveat of "only from devotees in Iskcon". That is maybe your personal opinion but it is not a concept found within Gaudiya siddhanta. You won't find anywhere in sastra where we are told that we cannot take siksa from people outside of an organization. While Srila Prabhupada wanted everyone to co-operate and work with Iskcon that doesn't mean that only in Iskcon is Krishna empowering siksa gurus. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta wanted everyone to co-operate within the Gaudiya Math but things didn't turn out that way. Srila Prabhupada gave diksa and siksa outside of the Gaudiya Math and we wouldn't accept from vaisnavas in the Gaudiya Math if they said that siksa is only available in the Gaudiya Math because Srila Sarasvati Thakura wanted everyone to remain in the mission.Posted by bb das @ 12/04/2005 04:39 PM PST
Dear Siva,
It seems that in most cases those that take siksa outside Iskcon end up leaving Iskcon.
I have faith that if we patiently follow Srila Prabhupada's instructions he will give us what ever we need to advance and to help serve within his movement.
Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja stressed that we should never leave the Mission of our Spiritual Master and that we should have "leach like tenancity" in sticking to the Sri Guru's instructions and Institution.
My faith is that Srila Prabhupada would never want us to "leave" his Society, if of course we ever joined it.
This is the reason many others outside Iskcon did not leave the Mathas or Institutions of the their respective Guru Maharajas (in most cases). They understand this principle.
It is true that we should hear from bona fide sadhu, but when it ends up that everyone leaves Prabhupada's Movement I think Srila Prabhupada would not be happy.
I have faith that Srila Prabhupada can and does empower devotees within his own Society.
If we have faith in that and pray to Krsna and Srila Prabhupada, then they are revealed. Sri Guru is always manifested.
One has to be crying from the heart and has to hanker for such association and guidence and then it will be fullfilled. Krsna gives us what we desire and what we need.
I hope that helps.
ys
bb dasPosted by shiva das @ 12/04/2005 01:42 PM PST
bb das you wrote:
I am speaking philosophy Maharaja. When you are not free from anarthas, you cannot hear Sri Guru properly; therefore one must seek out a bona fide siksa guru (within Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon) and hear from him. If not, one is prone to make mistake after mistake.
Why did you say within Iskcon?
Trivikrama Maharaja you wrote:Well BB Das I knew your Guru Maharaja pretty well and I can say with confidence he wouldn't be pleased at your personal attacks on his Godbrother Pragosh Prabhu. Philosophy is one thing but you seem to relish attacking his person. So having a guru is one thing but following is another.
Of course I could say more, but why should I engage in a forum where proper Vaisnava etiquette is not followed and where the mood is decidedly anti-Iskcon.
bb das may be a little assertive in denouncing Praghosa but it's a philosophical denunciation and it seems to be in the mood of righteous indignation and not personally motivated. I doubt they know each other or have any influence on each other's lives. It's not a big deal is what I'm saying. You are a leading member of Iskcon and someone whom I respected back in the day because you were one of the bro's rather then the big big man/fool on the hill. But you take part in Iskcon where there has been no lack of lapses of etiquette between leaders and the common rabble and even between leader and leader (Bhakti Vikas versus Bhakti Tirtha, etc etc etc). We pretty much have all been there and done that and can attest to the frequent lapse in proper vaisnava etiquette within the hallowed haunts of Iskcon which were often times very personal and bitter and hurtful to peoples lives.
So since you continue to take part in Iskcon you can no doubt tolerate philosophical battles online that may get a little heated. I don't think characterizing the "mood" here as being anti-Iskcon is accurate. You conflate Iskcon and decisions made by vaisnavas in Iskcon. Am I anti America if I criticize the decisions made by members of the government? The only people who are anti-Iskcon are people who disrespect Srila Prabhupada. Why would anyone who respects Srila Prabhupada be against the society he started to propagate the mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu?
If people are denounced as anti-Iskcon if they speak out on their concerns about the way Iskcon is being managed, then in my opinion that is the real lapse in vaisnava etiquette which can do real harm to peoples lives and to the progress of Iskcon.
There is a kind of McCarthyism within Iskcon. But instead of people being denounced as Anti America and communists, and the subsequent fear induced curtailing of free speech, all for political and business reasons over the questioning of the plutocratic system based on the fascist relationship between the American government and big business, in Iskcon there is a denouncing of people as anti-Iskcon if any criticism is aimed at the leadership.
So which is worse? Criticizing leadership decisions or denouncing the critics as anti-Iskcon and blackballing them from Srila Prabhupada's movement?Posted by Bhakta Bill @ 12/04/2005 10:57 AM PST
Respected Maharaja,
"Calling a spade a spade" is not anti- Iskcon. We should learn from all of these mistakes. It is not wrong to talk about mistakes.
It is when we are not allowed to look and speak about the mistakes that we should really be worried.
We are anti cover-ups. We are against cheating and corruption where ever it may be.
We love Iskcon, that is why it is so painful Maharaja!
Try to understand.
All the Best,
B.BillPosted by bb das @ 12/04/2005 10:18 AM PST
Dear Maharaja,
Why don't you post your realizations and philosophical understanding on these issues in a site that is more comfortable for you and let us know where we can read it and give you our honest thoughts. You don't have to post it here.
Let us know where. You tell us when your done and we will read it with open minds and hearts.
ys
bb dasPosted by Trivikrama Swami @ 12/04/2005 09:40 AM PST
BB das has said: "With all that has been said in this blog, that's all you can say Maharaja?"
Of course I could say more, but why should I engage in a forum where proper Vaisnava etiquette is not followed and where the mood is decidedly anti-Iskcon.
Ys TSPosted by bb das @ 12/04/2005 08:28 AM PST
Oh yeah, I almost forgot.
As you say Maharaja, It's one thing to have a guru and it's quite another to actually follow his example and instructions.
I couldn't agree with you more!
ys
bb dasPosted by bb das @ 12/04/2005 08:19 AM PST
Dear Trivikrama Maharaja,
Dandavat Pranams.
All glories to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada.
With all that has been said in this blog, that's all you can say Maharaja?
Where is your contribution to help solve all of these major problems, created by mental concoction with material aspirations, which is ruining Iskcon?
Pragosh Prabhu (we call him the legend for fun) is speaking asiddhanta and misleading devotees with his mental speculative diatribes based on Ritvik vada.
The truth is the truth.
This is not pleasing to Vaisnavas who speak siddhanta based on Guru, Sadhu and Sastra. That includes Srila Prabhupada and Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja.
I am surprised you are not preaching heavily against this yourself Maharaja.
I am speaking philosophy Maharaja. When you are not free from anarthas, you cannot hear Sri Guru properly; therefore one must seek out a bona fide siksa guru (within Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon) and hear from him. If not, one is prone to make mistake after mistake.
Just look at all the mistakes the gbc has made on the subject of guru tattva. It's still going on. That history clearly shows that one cannot hear and cannot understand siddhanta properly if not free from tattva bhrama (philosophical misconceptions). That can only happen when one truly hears the actual siddhanta from a bona fide authorized guru.
Obviously, by the results, “We" have not yet heard properly.
Let us see your realizations on this fine mess that has been created and maintained.
Let us objectively compare your understanding and offering Maharaja.
ys
bb dasPosted by Trivikrama Swami @ 12/04/2005 07:30 AM PST
Well BB Das I knew your Guru Maharaja pretty well and I can say with confidence he wouldn't be pleased at your personal attacks on his Godbrother Pragosh Prabhu. Philosophy is one thing but you seem to relish attacking his person. So having a guru is one thing but following is another.
Posted by bb das @ 12/04/2005 02:17 AM PST
Dear Mark,
Thank you for your Vaisnava qualities of simplicity and humility.
It is refreshing; after having to hear from "Our legends".
I sincerely wish you well.
ys
bb dasPosted by bb das @ 12/04/2005 02:07 AM PST
To the fading legend,
You write:
I am not interested in contesting your faith in HH Gourgovinda Swami - nor your claim (I suppose it was originally his claim) that he was ordered by Srila Prabhupada to initiate disciples. Why would I? Number one - he is no longer here. So as Srila Prabhupada is not physically here - neither is HH Gour Govinda Swami. Now you are left with his vani only. I can only encourage you to capitalize upon it and make your life sublime if his memory and vani are indeed your principal source of inspiration.
My point is, that if it is true that Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja was repeatedly and directly ordered by Srila Prabhupada (in person and in letter) to make his own disciples within Iskcon, then your eternal ritvik vada thesis/ specualtion goes up in smoke. Doesn't it?
We will have to leave it up to each devotee as to how and why we should accept what a pure devotee speaks. You have to look at his character and behavior as well as his depth of realization on Vaisnava siddhanta. Of course if your envious or in contaminated consciousness you are blind and will never be able to see/ recognize. Krsna and His pure devotees reserve the right of not revealling themselves to the foolish, envious and unintelligent.
I'll take Maharaja's word rather that your faithless diatribe any day.
Srila Prabhupada would never change the sidhannta; never.
If you really could hear or did hear what Srila Prabhupada said, then you would understand that you are grossly misled by your asat sanga ( mind and so called associates). This is proof how when one is not liberated from anarthas/ tattva bhrama, he still needs a siksa guru.
Out of pride and pratistha and a false evaluation of one's own advancement, one will just simply surrender to the materialistic mind instead.
In regards to associating with and hearing from the unmanifested Sri Guru,
SB 4.28.41 Purport:
The Lord is the Supersoul seated in everyone’s heart, and He acts as the caitya-guru, the spiritual master within. However, HE GIVES DIRECT INSTRUCTIONS ONLY TO THE ADVANCED, PURE DEVOTEES. In the beginning, when a devotee is serious and sincere, the Lord gives him directions from within to approach a bona fide spiritual master. WHEN ONE IS TRAINED BY THE SPIRITUAL MASTER ACCORDING TO THE REGULATIVE PRINCIPLES OF DEVOTIONAL SERVICE AND IS SITUATED ON THE PLATFORM OF SPONTANEOUS ATTACHMENT (Raga-Bhakti)FOR THE LORD the Lord also gives instructions from within. THIS DISTINCT ADVANTAGE IS OBTAINED BY A LIBERATED SOUL. Having attained this stage, King Malayadhvaja was directly in touch with the Supreme Lord and was receiving instructions from Him directly.
SB 4.28.52 Purport:
CONSULTATION WITH THE SUPERSOUL SEATED WITHIN EVERYONE’S HEART IS POSSIBLE ONLY WHEN ONE IS COMPLETELY FREE FROM THE CONTAMINATION OF MATERIAL ATTACHMENT. One who is SINCERE AND PURE gets an opportunity to consult with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His Paramatma feature sitting within everyone’s heart. The Paramatma is always the caitya-guru, the spiritual master within, and He comes before one externally as the instructor and initiator spiritual master. The Lord can reside within the heart, and He can also come out before a person and give him instructions. Thus the spiritual master is not different from the Supersoul sitting within the heart.
If one is properly trained and on the platform of at least nistha then he will be able to directly hear, otherwise you are simply speculating. Speculating means you don't know, just gropeing in the dark.
I hate to say it but, you need a guru. Pray to Krsna and Srila Prabhupada and they will definitly send you help.
You have to be eager and willing to hear though. I don't know if your up to the task?
Hare Krsna!
ys
bb dasPosted by shiva das @ 12/03/2005 11:42 PM PST
Praghosa you try and make it seem that your ideas are just about advocating faith in Srila Prabhupada and Iskcon, but what I see in your posts is more then that. Also you have a tendency to lie etc to make your points. Like this:
Srila Prabhupada answers HH Tamal Krsna and then someone arrogantly "reminds" Srila Prabhpada "Ahh Srila Prabhupada...you can't call your appointed gurus "Ritviks" and authorize them to inititiate the new men - on your behalf!"
"I can't? Why is that?"
"Oh Srila Prabhupada -despite the fact that I was a dope smoking moron from the Bowery of New York - I do know a thing or two about Vaisnava Siddhanta and what is widely accepted as OUR traditions... and this just can't be done!"
"Oh really?" well Tamal..ah...Hari Kesa ... arrange that ticket for Tamal for China.... he is getting a little too big for his britches again!"
All of that is a lie.
Or this:When Srila Prabhupada left this world - the issue of the continuance of what he called "our natural progress"; the most effective means of offering the process of Hari Nama samkirtan under the guidance of the pure devotees was - was put before Srila Prabhupada by his leading men.
I assume you meant to say "before" Srila Prabhupada left this world, not "when".
Then you continued:That history is there and I will assume you are abreast of it.
He responded to their inquiries by stating clearly and without hestitation "Yes after this is settled up - I will "appoint" some of you to act as "officiating acharyas" to inititate disciples on my behalf. Again I am not inventing a single word.
That is a half truth and is the main point of contention between the ritivikvadis and those who accept the following from Srila Prabhupada as the proper course of action:
Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acaryas.
Tamala Krsna Is that called ritvik-acarya?
Prabhupada: Ritvik, yes.
Satsvarupa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and the...
Prabhupada: He's guru. He's guru.
Satsvarupa: But he does it on your behalf.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is formality.Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order... Amara ajnaya guru haia. Be actually guru, but by my order.
Satsvarupa: So they may also be considered your disciples.
Prabhupada: Yes, they are disciples. Why consider? Who?
Tamala Krsna: No, he's asking that these ritvik-acaryas, they're officiating, giving diksa. Their... The people who they give diksa to, whose disciple are they?
Prabhupada: They're his disciple.
Tamala Krsna: They're his disciple.
Prabhupada: Who is initiating. He is grand disciple.
Satsvarupa: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: That's clear.
So Praghosa you are taking the first line from that conversation and then neglecting the rest and presenting that as the final word. Srila Prabhupada clearly says that the ritvik is a formality because they shouldn't take disciples while he was still with us, then he says that the disciples will be disciples of the diksa guru, his grand disciples.
But some people want to pretend that only the first part of the conversation took place and they lie by omission in their arguments for it.
Here is some speculation from you:The position of guru in ISKCON carries only as much authority as was "allowed" by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. This does mean that those who serve Srila Prabhupada and his mission are somehow "less than" what is considered the TRADITIONAL guru.
Srila Prabhupada never said anything like that nor is that vision supported in any sastra. The "TRADITIONAL" guru is of two types, either a maha bhagavata or a madhyama bhagavata. The maha bhagavata is described thusly from Sri Caitanya Caritamrata Adi.1.46:
acaryam mam vijaniyannavamanyeta karhicitna martya-buddhyasuyetasarva-deva-mayo guruh
One should know the acarya as Myself and never disrespect him in any way. One should not envy him, thinking him an ordinary man, for he is the representative of all the demigods.
Purport
....Following in the footsteps of Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami and Srila Jiva Gosvami, later acaryas like Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura have confirmed the same truths. In his prayers to the spiritual master, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura confirms that all the revealed scriptures accept the spiritual master to be identical with the Personality of Godhead because he is a very dear and confidential servant of the Lord.
Your philosophy denies the truth of sastra and the words of the previous acaryas and Srila Prabhupada. Any vaisnava who is a confidential servant of Krishna is considered to be identical to Krishna. You want to change that position of the spiritual master to something else, something less then what they really are in the name of Srila Prabhupadas instructions. That is a deception and a lie.
Then you wrote:That kind of guru - one who denies any connection to Srila Prabhupada's Governing Body Commission and any sense of obligation to HIS AUTHORITY as it comes down to his "official mission" through this body exists aplenty in this world.
That is sophistry and deception. You conflate Srila Prabhupada and the GBC. Srila Prabhupada never invested in them the power of the spiritual master. He gave them managing powers, administration powers, limited ones at that. Anyone can read the direction of management and see the limited role he gave to the GBC. It was mostly about helping new temples start, and making sure things went on smoothly. They were not invested with the power of the spiritual master to give authorization nor orders to other vaisnavas. Temple presidents were to be independent and run their temples. The GBC were meant as helpers to temple presidents not as bosses of Iskcon. That is clear in Srila Prabhupadas instructions on the matter.
Then more lies and deception:None of these care a fig for the management of ISKCON - in any way shape or form. Natha Zilch Zero. Of course they will all say "We have only good wishes for ISKCON or we all deeply respect HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami or He is also our Guru etc etc - blah blah blah.... But ask them to support his mission with men and more importantly - money - and also accept the Governing Body as THEIR ultimate managing authority - and you will get a resounding rejection from all of them.
The devotees you mentioned who are Srila Prabhupadas disciples were ousted from Iskcon and are not allowed to work with Iskcon. The other vaisnavas are not Srila Prabhupadas disciples and lead their own Gaudiya missions and they have nothing to do with Iskcon because Iskcon will not accept their association.
Then some more speculative foolishness:I will give you an example of their assumed authority. HH TRipurari Swami published a book some years ago entitled "Aesthetic Vedanta". If the GBC and the BBT board had told him that such a book must come under their scrutiny and more importantly - their APPROVAL and per the instrutions of Srila Prabhupada - the use of any royalties or profits would have to be supervised by Srila Prabhupada himself - through his Bhaktivedanta Book Trust - would he have agreed? Of course not!
Since when is the GBC the guru of vaisnavas and have the authority to tell them what they can and cannot publish on their own? The GBC aint the boss of vaisnavas, they are managers of Iskcon, not the bosses and the gurus over everyone. Prabhupada wanted devotees to be independent generally but work together as well. Working together doesn't mean having a board of dictators or parental figures, it means co-operating, not submission to a handful of GBC. Anyone who wants to treat them as their guru, good luck with that, I gotta laugh at the absurdity of your position on this.
Anyways I could go on. But it's not worth it. You are too much enamored of yourself to accept anything anyone says that differs from you. I just wanted to point out how easy it is to decimate your "simple obvious TRUTH". Umkay?Posted by praghosa das @ 12/03/2005 08:39 PM PST
Rocana prabhu - the comments you cite were mere sarcasm. Poor examples of such but only to underscore the silliness of your style in addressing any issue. There is little that can be said. You state that your site gets millions of hits in a month and this will somehow reflect poorly on my comments. Well to those who share your space perhaps. But otherwise highly doubtful. You have never actually addressed my two principal points. Period. Truth is you agree with them. This is your essential point as well. You just don't wish to admit it. What can be done?
What I describe is the practical reality. The reality you lived with in your youth in Krsna Consciousness. If you offer the new men the very same opportunity you were provided by Srila Prabhupada - the same result will be achieved; by them and yourself as well.
This appears to be unwanted by most of the men who post here. They imagine that Krsna Consciousness is somehow inaccessible now in Srila Prabhupada's physical absence; that finding the bonafide spiritual master is somehow so much more complicated and difficult. I will continue to post here within this site - that it is no more difficult to approach the bonafide spiritual master to day than it was in 1972. I could care less if you or your few followers disagree with this. I say this merely for the benefit of those who might visit here and come to see or experience this for themselves. I am not saying this to argue with you or your followers. Nor am I attempting to counter any of your assertions - which are really in themselves none too clear really. I only wish to encourage anyone who can grasp it - that His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada did not emphasize his book distribution worldwide - and leave those who would come into contact with those books bereft of the very means to act upon them - immediately - LOCALLY - where they receive them.
This is the principal point in all my statments I have offered here.
You mind explaining this one "Interestingly, Praghosa dasa didn’t include his own name on his list." Which list are you referring to? The only listing of devotees I gave was of active devtotees I have the pleasure of knowing or serving with. To which list should I have included my name?
To Mark and the gentleman who has great affection for HH Gour Govinda Maharaja:
The practical reality is that if someone views this one or that one as "Their" guru - why would anyone seek to dissuade them; except of course if one is privvy to some grave deviation on the part of said guru? The fact that Srila Prabhupada did in fact appoint men to act as gurus on his behalf does not mandate that someone should or would see them as less vital to their development in Krsna Consciousness. However forcing devotees to see them as such is coercion and useless to boot. Take for example the rancor exchanged between Hari Das and Rocan. Hari Das is coninced of the bonafides of HH Bhaktitirtha Swami - meanwhile Rocan thinks otherwise and also deems the issue so important he conducted a "poll" in cyberspace to demonstrate just how many agree with his assessment. Notwithstanding the aggregate agreement with Rocan that he claimed was culled from the collective "opinion" by means of his poll - Hari das I am certian will not be changing his perception any time soon - no matter how consitently anyone is in expressing a contrary opinion of his "chosen" guru.
I am not interested in contesting your faith in HH Gourgovinda Swami - nor your claim (I suppose it was originally his claim) that he was ordered by Srila Prabhupada to initiate disciples. Why would I? Number one - he is no longer here. So as Srila Prabhupada is not physically here - neither is HH Gour Govinda Swami. Now you are left with his vani only. I can only encourage you to capitalize upon it and make your life sublime if his memory and vani are indeed your principal source of inspiration.
However whatever you might say about him or his legacy - I am only speaking of the practical program for spreading Krsna Consciousness left us by Srila Prabhupada himself. This has little to do with HH Gour Govinda Swami or your personal faith in him.
Shiva - you write "I have to consider your writing to be based on your own philosophy, not on Srila Prabhupadas writings. "
That is too bad.
Once again you demonstrate your silly position. My comments are so off the mark that you don't feel them worthy of any response? Right.
You never answered my question. You lurk in the corner and comment profusely on my statements by pulling out one sentence here and there and commenting upon that; as if they are separated from the essential point.
Once again gentlemen - the issue is this:
1. Every one needs to take full shelter of THE BONAFIDE SPIRITUAL MASTER and the qualities and verifiable features of THAT person are clearly given by HDG in all of his purports.
2. Approaching THAT personality has been arranged perfectly by HDG through the formation of his ISKCON mission. He - Srila Prabhupada is permanently fixed as THE CURRENT LINK in to the Disciplic Succession and our approaching and taking full shelter of Srila Prabhupada as our ETERNAL SPIRITUAL MASTER has been expertly arranged by Srila Prabhupada Himself.
Have the integrity to say "NO this is bunk and I cannot honestly say that Srila Prabhupada is in fact as accessible today as he was in 1972" or "Yes Praghosa is correct -Srila Prabhupada is indeed everybit as available today as he was in 1972!"
Otherwise what in God's name are we really discussing here.Posted by Alex @ 12/03/2005 06:59 PM PST
Dear BB Prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Thank you for the wonderful quotes from Srila Prabhupada.
I agree that it is important to hear from a pure devotee, and I am glad that many lectures by Srila Prabhupada are available for such a purpose.
Hare Krsna. Your servant, AlexPosted by shiva das @ 12/03/2005 06:29 PM PST
Rocana prabhu you wrote:
Srila Prabhupada named his mission ISKCON, the International Society for Krsna Consciousness. Emphasis on the word Society. He didn’t choose "Church" or "Matha". A society, in my mind, refers to a complete variety of unique individuals from all walks of life. After Srila Prabhupada’s departure we are obliged to harmoniously co-exist in a multi-“cultural” Vaisnava society.
I take it that that was meant in part at least as a response to Praghosa Das's vision of a GBC hegemonic vision. I totaly agree.
As for my reasons for defending Sridhar Maharaja it is not because I have accepted him as my spiritual guide in any way. I don't listen to his lectures or read his books. I have read his books many years ago when they first came out and I can't consider him to be my siksa guru for the simple fact that everything I ever read from him I had already learned from Srila Prabhupada and the previous acaryas. I won't say he isn't qualified to be other peoples siksa guru, but as for myself the way I see it is as Sridhara Maharaja himself put it:He to whom I am most indebted to, he will be my most important guru, whether he is diksa, siksa or sannyas-guru. Through whom the maximum grace has descended to me, he is my supreme guru.
The reason I objected to people blaming Sridhara Maharaja for the zonal acarya period is because that excuse was started as an attempt to shift responsibility away from those who actually were behind it. If the people who created the zonal acarya system could successfully cover their tracks then they would be free to continue on with their promotion of themselves as faultless maha bhagavats. That I believe was the reason for blaming Sridhara Maharaja. It was so the gurus who had thousands of disciples would not have to admit to being capable of fault. They tired to use the "We followed Srila Prabhupadas order to go to Sridhara Maharaja and then we were too humble in accepting his bad advice" routine.
Besides that I find that Sridhara Maahraja's various followers who have preaching missions show themselves to be without the fanaticism and sahajiya tendencies I see among Narayana Maharajas followers. I respect them and their preaching missions. i may have a difference with some of them here and there on finer points of philosophy, but it's not something which would find their association unwelcome.Posted by Rocana dasa @ 12/03/2005 06:21 PM PST
I can manifest a much longer list of outsider old-timers than Praghosa’s line-up of “old-timer” insiders. He throws around arbitrary percentage numbers, but it's an undeniable fact that over 95% of Srila Prabhupada disciples from 1977 are no longer involved in modern ISKCON. To my knowledge ISKCON doesn’t keep an up-to-date database, but I can say without hesitation that many times the number of disciples of ISKCON diksa gurus have also departed, but remain dedicated followers of Srila Prabhupada. What a shame! Most of those who departed imagined they were joining a Vaisnava society, but discovered that they had actually joined a poorly functioning “church”.
Interestingly, Praghosa dasa didn’t include his own name on his list. Is that because He hasn’t assumed any direct responsibility within the institution for years? If he dutifully followed his own sagacious advice, he could have or should have distributed many books in the time it took him to post all the repetitive, disruptive, immature, nonsense postings he's laid down in these blogs.
Praghosa is sadly mistaken if he imagines that each and every statement he utters/posts instantly evaporates into cyberspace. His words will be archived for a very long time, and all the un-Vaisnava-like babbling can, and probably will, eventually come back to haunt him in the future.
"This is the summary information. Asocyan anvasocas tvam prajna-vadams ca bhasase [Bg. 2.11]. So anyone who is not in perfect knowledge, he should not take the position of talking like a learned man. That is cheating and that is foolishness. First of all you know things as they are. Then talk. Otherwise, it is said that it is better not to talk than to talk foolish. It is better to stop talking. Therefore, sometimes in spiritual advancement there is a process, maunam. Maunam means not to talk. Those who are too much foolish, the spiritual master orders him, “Don’t talk. Please remain silent.” That’s all. Because if you talk, you’ll talk simply nonsense. Why should you spoil your energy by such nonsense talking? Better stop."
Bhagavad-gita Lecture 08-11-73, London
Does anyone reading Praghosa’s mind dumps think Srila Prabhupada would be “proud” of his disciple’s foolish verbosity? In a very public blog space, no less! This site gets a million hits per month, month after month. Think about 'them facts' before you allow your true neophyte nature to hang out there. We're not sitting around the kitchen table, jacking around. I’m sure Praghosa's good wife, children and grandchildren would be ashamed to Google their way to his thoughtless utterances like:"Hey that has mighty nice ring to it!! FAT HEADED LAZY LEGEND! I am gonna see if I can't get my Portuguese Honey to start purring that one to me when I'm down! "Come here and kiss me like you mean it my sweet Fat Headed Lazy Legend! or "You better love me tonight or leave me forever my Lazy Fat headed Lazy Legend!!"
Is anyone laughing?Posted by Rocana dasa @ 12/03/2005 06:06 PM PST
Shiva dasa, it's very pleasing to receive such an enlightened reply. I hear you and completely concur. Srila Prabhupada named his mission ISKCON, the International Society for Krsna Consciousness. Emphasis on the word Society. He didn’t choose "Church" or "Matha". A society, in my mind, refers to a complete variety of unique individuals from all walks of life. After Srila Prabhupada’s departure we are obliged to harmoniously co-exist in a multi-“cultural” Vaisnava society. Presently, there are no “nitya-siddha” Sampradaya Acaryas physically on the planet, as far as I can see. I only pray that if Lord Caitanya mercifully chooses to send another I will be spiritual qualified to recognize and participate in their mission.
Insofar as our discussion on HH Sridhara Maharaja is concerned, I personally have absolutely no problem accepting that you or other Godbrothers/sisters of mine, whose faith is inexplicably drawn to this divine personality, are doing so with all sincerity and that many or most have made some tangible spiritual advancement as a result. I’ve just never had any feeling or attraction for him, going back to 1974 when I first met him at his Matha in Navadipa. This is before anyone got the “warnings” from Srila Prabhupada and the Caitanya-caritamrta wasn’t published as yet.
I can also honestly say that I, for one, didn’t need to be ordered by Srila Prabhupada to stay clear. Over the course of many trips to India, I’ve stopped in for visits at several of Srila Prabhupada's Godbrother’s Mathas in Puri, Vrindabin and Mayapura, and have always been treated very nicely on all occasions. Even during my three-month stay in Mayapura in 74, I wasn't attracted to spend time at the Godbrothers' mathas. In fact, other than Srila Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati, I have never been moved after reading any of the books written by modern senior Vaisnavas. Obviously, you have a different story to tell. Who am I to judge your personal experience?
In many cases, I can observe the verifiable results of Srila Prabhupada's disciples association with the Godbrothers, in terms of changes in attitude, mood, demeanor and most obviously, their interaction with me. I've had unfortunate opportunities to encounter religious fanatics in all camps, Gaudiya Matha, ISKCON, Rttvik, Prabupad-nugas, and an array of independent, moronic, so-called devotees. I steer well clear of all the aforementioned. Whatever our opinions are as unique individual conditioned souls on the path of sadhana bhakti, our perceptions are not absolute. They're impacted to varying degrees by our past experiences and present circumstances. Acceptance of this reality is prerequisite to functioning normally in a true Krsna Consciousness Society. In a church-like environment, that is by definition not a possibility. Therefore I consider the “turn or burn” characters to be no more than neophyte kanistha bhaktas who are sadly in need of a Sampradaya Acarya's association. At this point in time that means studying Srila Prabhupada's books, ideally under the tutelage of a bonafide representative/guru of our transcendental disciplic succession.
Despite your affection for HDG B.R. Sridhara Maharaja, I've never detected from all your writings any indication that you are anything other than qualified.
I've read much of the content at your website: http://varnashrama-21st-century.blogspot.com. From what I read there, I would gladly live in your visionary Varna ashrama community in Maui, HI or anywhere else on this planet for that matter. I would enjoy discussing Krsna Conscious philosophy with you, in person, until the surabhi cows come home.
Could I envision myself living and serving in any of today’s ISKCON communities? I’m afraid not. Festivals, darsanas, arotiks, kirtan and prasadam, no problem, but the fanatical, poorly trained, disciples of ISKCON diksa gurus agitate my mind to such a degree that I can’t perform my service in the proper devotional mood.
I admit that there are many devotees, some of whom are my direct Godbrothers/sisters, who have transcended all the nonsense within ISKCON. They make the best out of a bad bargain so they can perform their prescribed service to Srila Prabhupada. Perhaps I was cursed shortly after joining due to being engaged in temple management. This is a service that has been redundant for many years in the manner and mood designed by Srila Prabhupada. I reached a crossroads a long ago: either jump onto the bandwagon going down the road to sannyasi, then on to GBC, then diksa guru, or retire in frustration. Many ex-TP's, like myself decided that it was too risky and foolhardy a move to make, and in hindsight, not going there was the best decision of their spiritual life. My old friend, Prithu dasa, is the latest glaring example of what eventually happens to those who took the plunge by going along to get along.
I can understand the motivation behind those like Shiva dasa who looked to the various Godbrother’s of Srila Prabhupada as a viable alternative to ISKCON or struggling alone in a sea of non-devotees. For a number of years, I really suffered and learned my lessons the hard way. I have seen and heard many sad stories of fellow spiritual travelers whose journey was waylaid on account of little or no association. I can’t speak for anyone but myself. I’m also not predicting a miraculous come back or resurgence. I don’t consider my Sampradaya Acarya thesis to be a “silver bullet" solution. HareKrsna.com and the Sampradaya Sun are presently my family’s main preaching projects. Like Shiva dasa, we also envision community based projects that might unfold in the days ahead. Let’s see what the future brings for the International “society” of Krsna Consciousness.Posted by Mark @ 12/03/2005 05:23 PM PST
Thank you BB Das, for your kindness.
What overwhelming evidence.
Please forgive my offensive ignorance.
All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga!
y.s.
MarkPosted by bb das @ 12/03/2005 02:28 PM PST
Dear Mark and readers,
Here are some of Srila Prabhupada's quotes on directly hearing from a bona fide Spiritual Master and not by simply reading that one can come to fully understand the tattvas.
This is in reference to what Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja was trying to stress in that specific quote presented by Mark.
SP Morning walk Jan 8, 1977 Bombay:
Dr. Patel: Sat-sanga is continuously coming in contact with such gurus like you or, I mean, reading that sastras, also is a sat-sanga.
Prabhupada: But reading... BY READING, YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND. TAD-VIJNANARTHAM SA GURUM EVABHIGACCHET [MU 1.2.12]. THAT IS ALSO VIDHILIN: “IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND THAT SCIENCE, HE MUST GO TO GURU.”
SB 2.3.1 Purport:
Therefore out of thousands and thousands of men, one may inquire about his spirit self and thus consult the revealed scriptures like Vedanta-sutras, Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. BUT IN SPITE OF READING AND HEARING SUCH SCRIPTURES, UNLESS ONE IS IN TOUCH WITH A REALIZED SPIRITUAL MASTER, HE CANNOT ACTUALLY REALIZE THE REAL NATURE OF SELF, ETC.
CC Antya 7.53 Purport:
As Svarupa Damodara has said, if one wants to learn the meaning of Srimad-Bhagavatam, one must take lessons from a realized soul. ONE SHOULD NOT PROUDLY THINK THAT ONE CAN UNDERSTAND THE TRANSCENDENTAL LOVING SERVICE OF THE LORD SIMPLY BY READING BOOKS. One must become a servant of a Vaisnava. As Narottama dasa Thakura has confirmed, chadiya vaisnava-seva nistara peyeche keba: one cannot be in a transcendental position unless one very faithfully serves a pure Vaisnava. ONE MUST ACCEPT A VAISNAVA GURU (ADAU GURV-ASRAYAM), AND THEN BY QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS ONE SHOULD GRADUALLY LEARN WHAT PURE DEVOTIONAL SERVICE TO KRSNA IS. That is called the parampara system.
CC Adi 16.52 Purport:
The statement kariyachi sravana ("I have heard it") is very important in the sense that HEARING IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN DIRECTLY STUDYING OR PERCEIVING. IF ONE IS EXPERT IN HEARING AND HEARS FROM THE RIGHT SOURCE, HIS KNOWLEDGE IS IMMEDIATELY PERFECT. This process is called srauta-pantha, or the acquisition of knowledge by hearing from authorities. All Vedic knowledge is based on the principle that ONE MUST APPROACH A BONA FIDE SPIRITUAL MASTER AND HEAR FROM HIM THE AUTHORITATIVE STATEMENTS OF THE VEDAS. IT IS NOT NECESSARY FOR ONE TO BE A HIGHLY POLISHED LITERARY MAN TO RECEIVE KNOWLEDGE; TO RECEIVE PERFECT KNOWLEDGE FROM A PERFECT PERSON, ONE MUST BE EXPERT IN HEARING.
SB 3.22.7 Purport: Manu said that since he was advised and instructed by Kardama Muni, he was very much favored. He considered himself lucky to receive the message by aural reception. IT IS ESPECIALLY MENTIONED HERE THAT ONE SHOULD BE VERY INQUISITIVE TO HEAR WITH OPEN EARS FROM THE AUTHORIZED SOURCE OF THE BONA FIDE SPIRITUAL MASTER. How is one to receive? ONE SHOULD RECEIVE THE TRANSCENDENTAL MESSAGE BY AURAL RECEPTION. The word karna-randhraih means “THROUGH THE HOLES OF THE EARS.” THE FAVOR OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER IS NOT RECEIVED THROUGH ANY OTHER PART OF THE BODY BUT THE EARS.
SB 1.3.44 Purport:
Simple hearing is not all; one must realize the text with proper attention. The word nivista means that Suta Gosvami DRANK THE JUICE OF BHAGAVATAM THROUGH HIS EARS. THAT IS THE REAL PROCESS OF RECEIVING BHAGAVATAM. ONE SHOULD HEAR WITH RAPT ATTENTION FROM THE REAL PERSON, AND THEN HE CAN AT ONCE REALIZE THE PRESENCE OF LORD KRSNA IN EVERY PAGE. THE SECRET OF KNOWING BHAGAVATAM IS MENTIONED HERE.
SP Festival Lecture Nov.18, 1968, Los Angeles:
We are publishing, we are publishing literature, books. I am trying to speak to you. That is also understanding, studying Krsna science. RATHER, HEARING IS BETTER RECEPTION. IF YOU HEAR... THAT VEDAS ARE THEREFORE KNOWN AS SRUTI. SRUTI MEANS IT IS RECEIVED THROUGH HEARING. REAL PROCESS IS HEARING. AND THIS AGE, KALI-YUGA, PEOPLE CANNOT STUDY SO MUCH.
SB 2.1.8 Purport:
SRIMAD-BHAGAVATAM, OR, FOR THAT MATTER, ANY OTHER SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE, CANNOT BE STUDIED AT HOME BY ONE'S OWN INTELLECTUAL CAPACITY. Medical books of anatomy or physiology are available in the market, but no one can become a qualified medical practitioner simply by reading such books at home. One has to be admitted to the medical college and study the books under the guidance of learned professors. SIMILARLY, SRIMAD-BHAGAVATAM, THE POSTGRADUATE STUDY OF THE SCIENCE OF GODHEAD, CAN ONLY BE LEARNED BY STUDYING IT AT THE FEET OF A REALIZED SOUL LIKE SRILA VYASADEVA. Although Sukadeva Gosvami was a liberated soul from the very day of his birth, he still had to take lessons of Srimad-Bhagavatam from his great father, Vyasadeva, who compiled the Srimad-Bhagavatam under the instruction of another great soul, Sri Narada Muni. LORD SRI CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU INSTRUCTED A LEARNED BRAHMANA TO STUDY SRIMAD-BHAGAVATAM FROM A PERSONAL BHAGAVATA.
SB 2.1.10 Purport:
In the Padma Purana, it is mentioned that Gautama Muni advised Maharaja Ambarisa TO HEAR regularly Srimad-Bhagavatam as it was recited by Sukadeva Gosvami, and herein it is confirmed that MAHARAJA AMBARISA HEARD Srimad-Bhagavatam from the very beginning to the end, as it was spoken by Sukadeva Gosvami. ONE WHO IS ACTUALLY INTERESTED IN THE BHAGAVATAM, THEREFORE, MUST NOT PLAY WITH IT BY READING OR HEARING A PORTION FROM HERE AND A PORTION FROM THERE; ONE MUST FOLLOW IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF GREAT KINGS LIKE MAHARAJA AMBARISA OR MAHARAJA PARIKSIT AND HEAR IT FROM A BONA FIDE REPRESENTATIVE OF SUKADEVA GOSVAMI.
SB 3.25.25:
”In the association of pure devotees, DISCUSSION OF THE PASTIMES AND ACTIVITIES OF THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD IS VERY PLEASING AND SATISFYING TO THE EAR AND THE HEART. By cultivating such knowledge one gradually becomes advanced on the path of liberation, and thereafter he is freed, and his attraction becomes fixed. Then real devotion and devotional service begin.”
PURPORT
THE PROCESS OF ADVANCING IN KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS AND DEVOTIONAL SERVICE IS DESCRIBED HERE. THE FIRST POINT IS THAT ONE MUST SEEK THE ASSOCIATION OF PERSONS WHO ARE KRSNA CONSCIOUS AND WHO ENGAGE IN DEVOTIONAL SERVICE. WITHOUT SUCH ASSOCIATION ONE CANNOT MAKE ADVANCEMENT. SIMPLY BY THEORETICAL KNOWLEDGE OR STUDY ONE CANNOT MAKE ANY APPRECIABLE ADVANCEMENT….
SRILA PRABHUPADA ALSO STRESSES THAT ONE HAS TO HEAR FROM THE LIPS:
SB 4.20.24 Translation: King Prthu to the Lord, “My dear Lord, I therefore do not wish to have the benediction of merging into Your existence, a benediction in which there is no existence of the nectarean beverage of Your lotus feet. I WANT THE BENEDICTION OF AT LEAST ONE MILLION EARS, FOR THUS I MAY BE ABLE TO HEAR ABOUT THE GLORIES OF YOUR LOTUS FEET FROM THE MOUTHS OF YOUR PURE DEVOTEES.”
Purport: … Maharaja Prthu wanted to have a million ears to hear the glories of the lotus feet of the Lord. HE SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED THAT THE GLORIES OF THE LORD SHOULD EMANATE FROM THE MOUTHS OF PURE DEVOTEES, WHO SPEAK FROM THE CORES OF THEIR HEARTS. It is stated in the beginning of Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.1.3), the nectar of Srimad-Bhagavatam became more relishable because IT EMANATED FROM THE MOUTH OF SRILA SUKADEVA GOSVAMI. One might think that these glories of the Lord can be heard from anywhere, from the mouths of either devotees or nondevotees, but here it is specifically mentioned that THE GLORIES OF THE LORD MUST EMANATE FROM THE MOUTHS OF PURE DEVOTEES. …
BUT WHEN HEARD FROM THE MOUTH OF A PURE DEVOTEE, GLORIFICATION OF THE LORD IS IMMEDIATELY EFFECTIVE…. GLORIFICATION OF THE LORD IS POTENT WHEN UTTERED FROM THE MOUTH OF A PURE DEVOTEE.
SB 4.20.25 Translation: “My dear Lord, You are glorified by the selected verses uttered by great personalities. Such glorification of Your lotus feet is just like saffron particles. WHEN THE TRANSCENDENTAL VIBRATION FROM THE MOUTHS OF GREAT DEVOTEES CARRIES THE AROMA OF THE SAFFRON DUST OF YOUR LOTUS FEET, THE FORGETFUL LIVING ENTITY GRADUALLY REMEMBERS HIS ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU. DEVOTEES THUS GRADUALLY COME TO THE RIGHT CONCLUSION ABOUT THE VALUE OF LIFE. MY DEAR LORD, I THEREFORE DO NOT NEED ANY OTHER BENEDICTION BUT THE OPPORTUNITY TO HEAR FROM THE MOUTH OF YOUR PURE DEVOTEE.”
Purport: IT IS EXPLAINED IN THE PREVIOUS VERSE THAT ONE HAS TO HEAR GLORIFICATION OF THE LORD FROM THE MOUTH OF A PURE DEVOTEE. THIS IS FURTHER EXPLAINED HERE. THE TRANSCENDENTAL VIBRATION FROM THE MOUTH OF A PURE DEVOTEE IS SO POWERFUL THAT IT CAN REVIVE THE LIVING ENTITY’S MEMORY OF HIS ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP WITH THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD….
We must get up from this slumber and engage in the right service, for thus we can properly utilize the facility of this human form of life. As expressed in a song by Thakura Bhaktivinoda, Lord Caitanya says, jiva jago, jiva jago. The Lord asks every sleeping living entity to get up and engage in devotional service so that his mission in this human form of life may be fulfilled. THIS AWAKENING VOICE COMES THROUGH THE MOUTH OF A PURE DEVOTEE….A pure devotee always engages in the service of the Lord, taking shelter of His lotus feet, and therefore he has a direct connection with the saffron mercy-particles that are strewn over the lotus feet of the Lord. ALTHOUGH WHEN A PURE DEVOTEE SPEAKS THE ARTICULATION OF HIS VOICE MAY RESEMBLE THE SOUND OF THIS MATERIAL SKY, THE VOICE IS SPIRITUALLY VERY POWERFUL BECAUSE IT TOUCHES THE PARTICLES OF SAFFRON DUST ON THE LOTUS FEET OF THE LORD. AS SOON AS A SLEEPING LIVING ENTITY HEARS THE POWERFUL VOICE EMANATING FROM THE MOUTH OF A PURE DEVOTEE, HE IMMEDIATELY REMEMBERS HIS ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP WITH THE LORD, ALTHOUGH UP UNTIL THAT MOMENT HE HAD FORGOTTEN EVERYTHING.
…FOR A CONDITIONED SOUL, THEREFORE, IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO HEAR FROM THE MOUTH OF A PURE DEVOTEE, WHO IS FULLY SURRENDERED TO THE LOTUS FEET OF THE LORD WITHOUT ANY MATERIAL DESIRE, SPECULATIVE KNOWLEDGE OR CONTAMINATION OF THE MODES OF MATERIAL NATURE….THEREFORE, THIS PROCESS OF HEARING FROM THE MOUTH OF A PURE DEVOTEE IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR MAKING PROGRESS IN THE LINE OF SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING.
This is what Srila Prabhupada and Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja are stressing.
Thank you.
YS
bb dasPosted by Mark @ 12/03/2005 12:34 PM PST
Hari Bol!
I agree with Shiva Das on the comment he chose to illustrate his point with. The philosophical distortion begins in the sentence which precedes it. Here is the whole paragraph.
"The position of guru in ISKCON carries only as much authority as was "allowed" by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. This does mean that those who serve Srila Prabhupada and his mission are somehow "less than" what is considered the TRADITIONAL guru. That kind of guru - one who denies any connection to Srila Prabhupada's Governing Body Commission and any sense of obligation to HIS AUTHORITY as it comes down to his "official mission" through this body exists aplenty in this world. I can name a few for you now. HH Alanantha Swami, HH Tripurari Swami, HH Ramakrsnananda Swami, HH Narayana Swami, HH Govinda Swami, HH Jagat Guru Swami, HH Puri Maharaja etc etc etc. "
Regarding the first sentence, "The position of guru in ISKCON carries only as much authority as was "allowed" by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada."...
As far as I know, when Srila Prabhupada was physically present, no-one in Iskcon was titled Guru and getting away with it except for His Divine Grace. Certainly his disciples were acting as a medium for Sri Guru from time to time, yet they were not accepting and caring for disciples as a Pure Devotee would.
The second statement was probably intended to mean that no one had been authorized or ordered to "Be Guru" in the traditional sense of a Pure Devotee Guru. It was worded so poorly that what it states is entirely different and, when examined carefully, misrepresents Srila Prabhupada's potency as Sri Guru, and the potentials those in his mission.
Perhaps more meditation and deliberation before writing about such topics is in order so we can avoid what in retrospect are such obvious errors.
y.s.
MarkPosted by shiva das @ 12/03/2005 11:56 AM PST
Praghosa your doctrine is full of sophistry, half truths, lies and speculation. It's not even worth the time to try and refute.
Whne you say things like:This does mean that those who serve Srila Prabhupada and his mission are somehow "less than" what is considered the TRADITIONAL guru.
I have to consider your writing to be based on your own philosophy, not on Srila Prabhupadas writings.Posted by Mark @ 12/03/2005 10:14 AM PST
Hari Bol!
I agree with the way Praghosa Das reiterates Srila Prabhupada's instructions on how the management of his movement is to proceed.
In my recent experience, the claim that Iskcon has been 90% realigned with these wishes is just wishfull thinking. Maybe 9%.
Only one temple within at least 300 miles of my location, and that is the Long Island Iskcon temple, is operating under the guidance of a TP following Srila Prabhupada's instructions, AND has rejected the bogus GBC interference. The rest of the temples, despite a facelift on Sundays, are populated by victims with deep inner depression and the program is coopted. A couple of showbottle kirtan artists keep the congregation going by a thread. Bas.
I refuse to be overly optimistic in the face of the truth. I will acknowledge where the positive is and try to expand it though.
And as far as the person Gour Govinda, in one of his books he directly contradicts certain statements that Srila Prabhupada made regarding the Siddhanta of Guru tattva regarding Vapu and Vani. In the Founder Achayra's Temple he preached this. Here is the excerpt from Chapter 6. of "The Process of Inquiry".
Devotee: Srila Prabhupada always emphasized that he was eternally present in his books, instructions, tapes, and letters. So when you say we should take association of a sadhu can we do that through Srila Prabhupada's books?
Gour Govinda Swami: If Prabhupada says he is there, then you try to see him, associate with him, and listen from him. Do you see Prabhupada? Do you hear from Prabhupada? Is he speaking to you?
Devotee: Through his books.
Gour Govinda Swami: Through his books, yes. All sadhus speak through their books. Jiva Goswami, Rupa Goswami, Sanatana Goswami, Bhaktivinode Thakur, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, and Srila Prabhupada all say that they speak through books. This is not a new thing. This is our Vaisnava procedure. But you should see him. Can you see Bhaktivinode Thakur? Can you see Jiva Goswami? You may say, "Oh I have read their books; I have their association." That won't help you.
Gour Govinda Swami: You cannot understand what they have said merely by reading their books. Your consciousness is very low, so you cannot understand their words.
Srila Prabhupada, his Spiritual Master had this to say on the topic...
“So we should associate by vibration, and not by the physical presence. That is real association. “
(Lectures SB, 68/08/18)
“It is sometimes misunderstood that if one has to associate with persons engaged in devotional service, he will not be able to solve the economic problem. To answer this argument, it is described here that one has to associate with liberated persons not directly, physically, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life.”
(SB 3:31:48)
“So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the Spiritual Master, vibration. What we have heard from the Spiritual Master, that is living.”
(General lectures, 69/01/13)
“Paramahamsa: My question is, a pure devotee, when he comments on Bhagavad-gita, someone who never sees him physically, but he just comes in contact with the commentary, explanation, is this the same thing?
“These are not ordinary books. It is recorded chanting. Anyone who reads, he is hearing.”
(Letter to Rupanuga Das, 19/10/74)
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. You can associate with Krsna by reading Bhagavad-gita. And these saintly persons, they have given their explanations, comments. So where is the difficulty?”
(Morning Walk, Paris 11/6/74)
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada and Sri Krishna Chaitanya!
y.s.
MarkPosted by bb das @ 12/03/2005 08:54 AM PST
Pragosh, one problem with your thesis...actually many but, His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada repeatedly ordered H.H. Srila Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja (GBC Iskcon Guru) to make his own men/ disciples and that Bhubaneswar Iskcon Krsna Balarama Temple (Prabhupada's last founded project) would become one of the finest Iskcon temples in the World.
Also, if anyone (excluding the legends of course) would preach what you have just said, he would be thrown out of the Iskcon temples and Iskcon all together.
It's funny how "out of touch with reality" you actually are.
Keep chanting Prabhu, it will get better over time.
ys
bb dasPosted by praghosa das @ 12/03/2005 08:02 AM PST
Hello Mark
I will offer you this.
I said 90% correct because they have implemented various restricitions that have effectively neutralized the actions of the various gurus within ISKCON by restricting them in various ways so as to prevent them from misrepresnting their actual authority.
Everyone accepts the prinicple that one can only assume as much authority as Krsna and Guru provide them. This is reality. Srila Prabhupada himself said that one can be guru - as much as his guru "orders" nothing more and nothing less. This is practical and it is reality.
Srila Prabhupada established his "OFFICIAL MISSION" and it is indeed referred to by him as The International Society for Krsna Consciousness. It is indeed "incorporated" legally. It adoopted an "official" Constitution in 1966. As well it adopted "official" Direction of Management which was "officially" signed and dated by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada on the 28th of July 1970. He then "officially" and "legally" placed all of his Bhaktivedanta Purports in Trust - The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust - in 1972. These were all "official" and legal actions.
Srila Prabhupada managed ISKCON in a most effective and deliberate way. Though Krsna Consciousness is eternal and Srila Prabhupada never claimed to be the exclusive origin in any way of this science - he did in fact establish exactly what ISKCON's role would be in its promulgation - officially and legally. None of what I have said is anything but actual history.
When Srila Prabhupada left this world - the issue of the continuance of what he called "our natural progress"; the most effective means of offering the process of Hari Nama samkirtan under the guidance of the pure devotees was - was put before Srila Prabhupada by his leading men. That history is there and I will assume you are abreast of it.
He responded to their inquiries by stating clearly and without hestitation "Yes after this is settled up - I will "appoint" some of you to act as "officiating acharyas" to inititate disciples on my behalf. Again I am not inventing a single word. I am only offering you exactly what Srila Prabhupada said. He then over the next two months in a short series of discussions did make this appointment. He then sent the essence of whatever discussions did in fact take place - HIS conclusions on them - OFFICIALLY - in letter form to the entire world. This is exactly how Srila Prabhupada had consistently managed his mission from day one. I was raised in this effective system from my first contact with Srila Prabhupada via his books and "appointed" men in 1972.
Again my two basic points are this:
1. Every one needs to take full shelter of THE BONAFIDE SPIRITUAL MASTER and the qualities and verifiable features of THAT person are clearly given by HDG in all of his purports.
2. Approaching THAT personality has been arranged perfectly by HDG through the formation of his ISKCON mission. He - Srila Prabhupada is permanently fixed as THE CURRENT LINK in to the Disciplic Succession and our approaching and taking full shelter of Srila Prabhupada as our ETERNAL SPIRITUAL MASTER has been expertly arranged by Srila Prabhupada Himself.
The position of guru in ISKCON carries only as much authority as was "allowed" by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. This does mean that those who serve Srila Prabhupada and his mission are somehow "less than" what is considered the TRADITIONAL guru. That kind of guru - one who denies any connection to Srila Prabhupada's Governing Body Commission and any sense of obligation to HIS AUTHORITY as it comes down to his "official mission" through this body exists aplenty in this world. I can name a few for you now. HH Alanantha Swami, HH Tripurari Swami, HH Ramakrsnananda Swami, HH Narayana Swami, HH Govinda Swami, HH Jagat Guru Swami, HH Puri Maharaja etc etc etc.
None of these care a fig for the management of ISKCON - in any way shape or form. Natha Zilch Zero. Of course they will all say "We have only good wishes for ISKCON or we all deeply respect HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami or He is also our Guru etc etc - blah blah blah.... But ask them to support his mission with men and more importantly - money - and also accept the Governing Body as THEIR ultimate managing authority - and you will get a resounding rejection from all of them.
I will give you an example of their assumed authority. HH TRipurari Swami published a book some years ago entitled "Aesthetic Vedanta". If the GBC and the BBT board had told him that such a book must come under their scrutiny and more importantly - their APPROVAL and per the instrutions of Srila Prabhupada - the use of any royalties or profits would have to be supervised by Srila Prabhupada himself - through his Bhaktivedanta Book Trust - would he have agreed? Of course not!
If His Divine Grace Swami Ramakrsnananda (He gave himself this title not me!) is asked to work cooperatively with the management of Sri Sri Radha Govinda Mandir; the local Temple President and Governing Body Secretary here in New York City- do you think he will agree? Would he agree that all candidates for initiation MUST BE APPROVED by the LOCAL TEMPLE PRESIDENT AND GBC Secretary? Of course he would simply laugh at ISKCON's "so-called authority" and proceed as he saw fit.
Now I am not in conflict with his position? And neither is Lord Krsna. They can do as they like and sink or swim on the strength of their own merit. They can be bogus -they could be modestly empowered to affect some people with Krsna Consicousness. But they are not allowed to represent the official mission of Srila Prabhupada.
ISKCON is the "official" mission of His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami. That is a fact. All other "misisons" are on their own. They neither have nor seek his sanction or approval. That is their business. However if someone claims to be an "authorized" representative of Srila Prabhupada's "official" and "Legally" established ISKCON he is not permitted to just "wing it" as these men wish to do. They are every bit as obliged to adhere to the rules, standards and obligations that accompany such "appointments" as a General in the United States Army, an Admiral in the United States Navy or the Mercedes Benz director of sales for the the Eastern Seaboard of the United States of America - or the "regional" President of the Federal Reserve Bank system of the United States of America.
The position of guru - in ISKCON - was established with that much weight and authority - for the benefit of mankind - by HDG Srila Prabhupada in the course of his preaching and managing his mission.
Now when he said "Officiating Gurus" he was immediately asked by HH Tamal Krsna - is THAT called "Rivik" and His Divine Grace said "YES - Ritivik". He used this word to describe the function of his appointed gurus.
As per the quote submitted by BB das the other day:
You cannot become a spiritual master all of a sudden. THERE MUST BE ORDER FROM A SUPERIOR PERSON. SUPERIOR TO YOU. IF HE SAYS, “NOW YOU CAN MAKE DISCIPLES,” THEN YOU CAN DO THAT. This is the educational process. THAT MEANS, WHEN ONE HAS RECEIVED ORDER FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, HE CAN BE [SPIRITUAL MASTER.]
(SP 1.2.18 Lecture)
He is self-made guru. Therefore he’s not guru. Self-made guru cannot be guru. HE MUST BE AUTHORIZED BY THE BONA FIDE GURU. THEN HE’S GURU. BONA FIDE GURU MEANS HE MUST BE AUTHORIZED BY THE SUPERIOR GURU…. HE MUST RECEIVE THE ORDER FROM THE SUPERIOR. AND THE SUPERIOR MUST BE BONA FIDE. THEN HE’S BONA FIDE, NOT SELF-MADE.
(NOD Lectures Vrndavan, India 10/31/72)
We accept the fact that HDG was indeed bonafide and was fully capable of appointing men to act on his behalf in whatever capacity he deemed correct and capable. This he did do. This is the history. His appointment of the original 11 men was not a declaration of the level of their realization or the quality of their condition of purity. It was not a direct order to us to accept them as more or less than they were. In fact it did not warrant our "inspection" of them in any way. This historic "appointment" was their "authorization" to act on behalf of Srila Prabhupada. That was not a small matter. It was and still is a very important position. Its importance lies in its being a integral part of the process of spreading Krsna Conscioiusness to every town and village around the globe and only those men who are not only willing - but also eager - to embrace it EXACTLY as it was ordered by Srila Prabhupada should be so placed. Unless these men can submit their position as being subordinate to the Governing Body and "cooperative" WITH the Local Temple President - they should never even be considered for such and important position.
There are those who now have coined words like "Ritvikvada" or the more nefarious sounding "Ritvikism" but I can assure you that NO ONE would have had the gall to interject any such attempt to "position" Srila Prabhupada's use of this simple term in his actual physical presence!! It is ludicrous to even imagine it!
Srila Prabhupada answers HH Tamal Krsna and then someone arrogantly "reminds" Srila Prabhpada "Ahh Srila Prabhupada...you can't call your appointed gurus "Ritviks" and authorize them to inititiate the new men - on your behalf!"
"I can't? Why is that?"
"Oh Srila Prabhupada -despite the fact that I was a dope smoking moron from the Bowery of New York - I do know a thing or two about Vaisnava Siddhanta and what is widely accepted as OUR traditions... and this just can't be done!"
"Oh really?" well Tamal..ah...Hari Kesa ... arrange that ticket for Tamal for China.... he is getting a little too big for his britches again!"
This is the reality. No one would have dared challenge Srila Prabhupada's most practical arrangements then. But they do it today - basically in cyberspace only - day in and day out.
So the gurus in ISKCON function as appointed representatives of Srila Prabhupada in every way; His teachings and his managerial mandates. This is their authority. If they wish to be "Acharyas" with absolute authority over their "business" of preaching etc and the men and money that flow in from that - they leave what they view as the "confines" of ISKCON - claim what they like about themselves and Krsna - and who can stop them and do what they wish. Who would bother to stop them? Who would want to?
Stopping those who leave from either acting as guru or managing a brothel is of no concern to anyone managing Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON. In this respect we are taught directly by the example and teachings of Srila Prabhpupada himself. He was asked once by a reporter if he thought it needed to preach against all the so-called "fake gurus". Srila Prabhupuada said "That is not our program. Our program is to give the real thing. That's all". Fake or not - the business of ISKCON is to preach "locally" and leave the squabbling over who is the absolute authority - outside the door. Period.
So if someone wishes to function as absolute authority over men and money - within ISKCON he must be sanctioned or fired. The possibility that a guru can be sanctioned or fired means his position is first and foremost - official. Ritvik in this sense means "officiating" or "offical". Let me tell you my friends - if you can be fired - your position is "official"! Make no mistake about that.
When Satsvarup Swami recently revealed his condition to his disiciples -he also asked them to continue to support him. They are free to do this. That is in accordance with his postion as potential siksa. He can even use his experience to teach others various qualities like humility or perseverence etc. That is fine. But ISKCON can and indeed should authoritatively state that he cannot act in the capacity of initiating guru any longer. Why? Srila Prabhupada stated that this position was too important to be even a little lenient. When asked about whether or not one sannyasi at the time could also inititate for Srila Prabhupada - he said "No previously we were lenient but now we must be very strict in this business".
We were never given Zonal Acharyas by Srila Prabhupada. However Srila Prabhupada, considering the needs of his worldwide mission, did appoint men to initiate the new men on his behalf throughout the world. This is a fact of history. Anyone who proposes differently cannot support their claim with his direct orders.
So summing up.
I state that the more ISKCON recognizes their mandate to easily spread Srila Prabhupada's mission all over the world - the more they recognize the requirements and restrictions naturally placed upon the men who are authorized to initiate disciples on behalf of Srila Prabhupada - under the banner of ISKCON - the MERCEDES BENZ OF all the various branches of Lord Chaitanya's great Samkirtan Mission.
I hope this answers your question sufficiently prabhu. Over time we will naturally see the men in ISKCON comfortably express this with no hesitation or confusion.
Those who reject this are fully free to claim what they like about themselves or guru etc - outside of the official mission of ISKCON. But ISKCON has indeed established this to the degree of about 90% and they will eventually get to 100%.
Hare KrsnaPosted by shiva das @ 12/02/2005 11:33 PM PST
My point wasn't to try and convince people that Sridhara Maharaja should be seen as their siksa guru on any topic. Faith in a guru is directed by Krishna and I really don't care who people have faith in, Krishna is fully in control over that. My objection was Praghosa saying that Sridhara Maharaja was somehow to blame for not only the zonal acarya period but also for the current disagreement he has with Iskcon over diksa gurus.
In both cases Sridhara Maharaja was being asked for advice by people who had already decided to be diksa gurus. Also while we may not appreciate Sridhara Maharaja's unwillingness to challenge the GBC as Srila Prabhupada would have, we can understand that he didn't see it as his place to tell the GBC what to do. If he would have condemned the GBC or tried to take the position as their authority then he would be faulted for trying to be like Narayana Maharaja who is accused of trying to claim authority over everyone, even going as far as claiming that he alone was the successor to Srila Prabhupada. If Sridhara Maharaja doesn't take the position of authority over Iskcon leadership then he is questioned over that decision. It's a lose lose proposition for him. So I try to be philosophical about what happened and try to see the will of Krishna at play. Things went down the way they were supposed to go down. Sridhara Maharaja like everyone else was doing the bidding of the Lord. The GBC tried to blame Sridhara Maharaja for their own decisions and that blame has been repeated by others for years. Sridhara Maharaja to my way of hearing seems to have been sincere and doing the best he knew how. I can't fault someone if they do that even if they don't make the best possible decision.
To Mark, my interpretation of what Sridhara Maharaja said about Iskcon and diksa gurus having their own temples is my own interpretation. What he said is open to interpretation. But it is clear he did not advocate the zonal acarya system, that was the point I was initially responding to. For people to blame him for creating the zonal acarya system or to blame him for Iskcon not being ritvikized,they are mistaken.Posted by Rocana dasa @ 12/02/2005 08:49 PM PST
After re-reading my post in the Vada blog section where I was discussing this issue with Brahma dasa in a Feb 3, 2002 thread entitled “As The Faith Flows”, I came across this section, which is relevant to this discussion.
For the complete transcript click on:
http://www.harekrsna.com/philosophy/vada/schools/mela.htm#7It was interesting to hear that the party that opposed Sridhara Maharaj supported the 'many acarya' idea, which is non-different that the Zonal Acarya system Sridhara himself backed forty years later. Sridhara Maharaj ratified that bogus, cookie-cutter concoction. Is this the valuable knowledge Srila Prabhupada expected Sridhara Maharaj to impart to his young disciples when he authorized approaching him for siksa?
Perhaps we can be generous by describing Sridhara Maharaj, in both the '37 and '77 takeovers, as an innocent, scholarly, naïve, pawn in the hands of the aggressive political types. Whatever was going through his head at either time, the results were the same. He didn’t excuse himself or speak out, therefore he is unfortunately implicated. He even contributed to their philosophical justification. His very words were included on the “papers” which were distributed throughout the Society. It was partially the weight of his “wise" elderly comments which added creditability to their philosophical nonsense.
Brahma dasa likes to project the image of Srila Prabhupada and Sridhar Maharaj as life-long friends from before the departure of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati. Srila Prabhupada's comments and Brahma’s own short historical narratives indicate that Srila Prabhupada and Sridhar Maharaj engaged in many discussions surrounding the break-up of their spiritual master’s mission. We can therefore assume that Sridhar Maharaj was fully aware of Srila Prabhupada’s disgust for Bon and Tirtha Maharajas in general, what to speak of their proposal of the multiple Acarya system.
If what I am saying is true, which seems only logical and consistent with all accounts, then why is it that Sridhar Maharaj accepted without question the Zonal Acarya's claim that Srila Prabhupada had decreed the same system he previously expressed such abhorrence for? Logic dictates that Sridhar Maharaj, more than anyone else, should have understood his old friend's mind on this matter. Sridhar Maharaj, according to what Brahma has revealed to us, was simply and easily hoodwinked by the exclusive members of the “good old boys club” of ISKCON when they came "across the river" for “siksa” advice. This freely imparted “knowledge/siddha” would detrimentally impact Vaisnava history and thousands of disciple’s lives.
Why didn’t Sridhar Maharaj speak-up and challenge this blatant abomination, which clearly went against all Srila Prabhupada’s previous opinions, traditions and precedent, what to speak of logic?
In a previous post, Brahma dasa tried to defended Sridhar Maharaja’s capitulation to the Zonal Acarya idea. It seems Sridhar Maharaj sighted a 500-year-old event surrounding the passing on of authority after the departure of the six Goswami’s Vrindabin temples. In that case, however, there was no regional initiation exclusivity involved. Besides, how is a precedent set hundreds of years past relevant today, in this context?
All in all, these arguments just don’t pass the test. Sridhar Maharaj repeated his previous 1937 'mistake', but in 1977 it appears that he switched sides. Apparently it never occurred to him, as it had to Srila Prabhupada, that both sides were useless. It didn’t dawn on Sridhar Maharaj, as an advocate of the “living guru concept”, that there may have been a third option.
We understand that Sridhar Maharaj was non-confrontational, a real sweetie-pie compared to the tell it "as it is” style of Srila Prabhupada. That’s another aspect of the ways in which, by their natures, they were not alike, which was ultimately a siddha issue.
Posted by Mark @ 12/02/2005 08:42 PM PST
Dear Shiva Das,
All the statements made by Sridhar Maharaja in your last post are clear.
He found himself in a situation where he was provided with misinterpretations of Srila Prabhupada's instructions to his disciples from the very first paragraph uttered by Jayapataka, whether by naive or willfull ignorance, I do not know.
Of course after saying they were authorized to question regarding technical points and matters of philosophy, this opened the field broadly, and they proceeded to ask about issues they were already instructed on by Srila Prabhupada, hoping for a different answer from someone who couldn't possibly know all the various nuances of Srila Prabhupada's unique instructions for Iskcon due to time place and cirucumstance.
He responded as any great soul would. He was compassionate and stuck to the basics. I believe the Lord, knowing the true desires of the persons before Sridhara Maharaja, guided him to say just what he did. None of it against sastra or siddhanta, but some contradictory to Srila Prabhupada's guidance, THROUGH NO FAULT OF HIS OWN.
And his recommendation was not as you said in your previous post, "He advised leaving the temples in Iskcon which at that time were populated by mostly Srila Prabhupada's disciples, as places where Srila Prabhupada was worshipped as Guru and NO ONE ELSE."
but more correctly as your latest post reads...
"Those centers which Srila Prabhupada personally established should keep a GROUP photo with Srila Prabhupada in the center on the altar."
So he keeps the central position but the other Gurus WOULD BE worshipped on the altar. Which of course would be fine if they were Guru's according to Sridhara Maharaja's criteria- "Guru must be transparent. The 100% servant of his guru, only he can be guru. This is the criteria."
And if you feel so repulsed about the topic of Srila Prabhupada's unique method of resolving how initiations could be performed by those less than 100% pure, and how this relates to present (mis)management of Iskcon temples, I would suggest you either come up with a positive solution for the victims of false Guru's, or produce heretofore undivulged instructions of Srila Prabhupada's regarding the management of Iskcon temples, or don't bother commenting at all on this issue in a public domain, just to then turn around and tell someone how disgusted you are having to chew the chewed by responding to them. That is not fair. Sorry I know you are better than that, maybe you're just having a bad day. I wish you well. Hari Bol!
y.s.
MarkPosted by shiva das @ 12/02/2005 04:56 PM PST
Whatever you may think of the advice of Sridhara Maharaja the fact is that he didn't create the zonal acarya system. The zonal acaryas did and then when it backfired they blamed Sridhara Maharaja.
[quote]Tape transcript of first discussion with GBC
Jayapataka Swami: After the departure of our spiritual master we have come to you to offer our respects and to hear your Upadesh... We came to take your advice how our new spiritual masters should deal with certain questions.
Srila Prabhupada taught us his desires, but he also said that on certain technical points and matters of philosophy, if there were any question we should approach you. Srila Prabhupada when he was very ill appointed eleven devotees as ritvik and that after he disappeared that the ritviks will continue as spiritual masters and that they could be increased later. That would be decided by the GBC.
Srila Sridhar Maharaj: A devotee can take his spiritual master according to his sraddha. The newcomers should be given some time to hear from different persons. And then his sraddha shall tell to whom he shall submit.
Siksa-gurus and diksa-gurus are manifestations of Krishna's mercy. Whoever can help me to come closer to Krishna is siksa-guru.
Acaryaman viyanijam - He comes in an infinite quantity of forms to save us. The vaisnavas are siksa-gurus.
He to whom I am most indebted to, he will be my most important guru, whether he is diksa, siksa or sannyas-guru.
Through whom the maximum grace has descended to me, he is my supreme guru (spiritual common sense).
The guru also executes his function through the help of his guru. In this way the chain goes up to Krishna.
Guru must be transparent. The 100% servant of his guru, only he can be guru. This is the criteria.
Even a disciple may commit a mistake when accepting a guru, therefore it is the duty of other vaisnavas to guide him.
Tamal Krishna Goswami: How shall we deal with temples with several acharyas?
Srila Sridhar Maharaj: It is good that the guru has a place of his own with his disciples. But in the major centers, problems would arise if one guru would take the central position, because so many interests exist there.
Those centers which Srila Prabhupada personally established should keep a group photo with Srila Prabhupada in the center on the altar.
I recommended that every guru must have at least one place where his authority is not challenged, just like a man after he gets married needs at least a room for his family. [/quote]
As to your other points; like I already said I won't debate ritvik philosophy because it's been done ad nauseam, chewing the chewed is all that topic holds as far as I am concerned.Posted by Mark @ 12/02/2005 04:02 PM PST
Dear Shiva Das,
You said:
“Will you just come out and admit that you are a ritvikvadi? I am sure people like Mark are hoping you will.”
My reply:
I would not be so sure on that.
You said:
"My understanding of what Sridhara Maharaja advised was that all of the Iskcon temples were to be centered around Srila Prabhupada and that new diksa gurus should start their own temples as part of but separate from Iskcon."
Me: If someone as erudite and articulate as Sridhara Maharaja said a temple could be “Part of but separate from Iskcon”, he was having a bad day.
As soon as an Uttama devotee descends to the Mudhyama platform for preaching purposes, and creates a temple, if any rules given to the sadhana bhaktas for maintenance of that temple were to differ from the rules for Iskcon temples, to call that new temple part of Iskcon would be just plain wrong.
You said:
“In this way those gurus would have a place to act like a guru to their disciples instead of acting like puppets controlled by the GBC.”
My reply:
Here Sridhara Maharaja is referring to a Mahabhagavata type Guru. Since no such Guru’s were ordered to be, or recognized by Srila Prabhupada, the GBC were never given instructions on how to control or deal with such a one anyway.
In reference to Kanistha or Mudhayma Gurus, Srila Prabhupada gave the warning, “best not to accept any disciples”.
Srila Prahbupada’s only applicable instructions to the GBC, in either case, were to make sure the spiritual standards were being maintained at temples while traveling and preaching. If there were Kanistha or Mudhayma level devotees accepting disciples of there own, a GBC member would have been in line to repeat Srila Prabhupada’s admonition. But that is it. Because as we know, there is some real level of discipleship here. It is only bogus if the devotee misrepresents his adhikari, and or requires WORSHIP. In that case they are no longer any level of Guru, and the GBC would be in their rights to oust the offender.
You said:
“A guru is an authority due to his spiritual potency derived from God. To put the guru under the control of an ecclesiastical body undermines the faith of the disciples in the guru and the gurus freedom to act on inspiration from God. So Sridhara Maharaja's advice was for the gurus to work within Iskcon but to also start their own temples so they could be in charge instead of being controlled by the GBC.”
My reply:
It appears to me that here Sridhara Maharaja was not speaking to Gurus. A real Guru would not be questioning whether or not he should succumb to the control of an ecclesiastical body. So his advice for these persons was to work within Iskcon but to also start their own temples, etc. It sounds to me like half a plan. Once they start their own temple under their own strategic initiative, the only thing they might have to offer Iskcon would be to confuse those trying to follow that structure offered by its founder.
If they were truly Gurus they could have been present at Iskcon temples at any time and been in harmony with Srila Prabhupada’s desires for how his temples would run.
Next you said:
“He advised leaving the temples in Iskcon which at that time were populated by mostly Srila Prabhupada's disciples, as places where Srila Prabhupada was worshipped as Guru and no one else. There the GBC would have total authority.
I think it’s a good plan.”
My reply:
If you are referring only to that last paragraph quoted as being a good plan, I cannot argue, because that is how Srila Prabhupada left things.
Of course the GBC having “total authority” is a bit inaccurate, because the Temple President and the congregation had enough authority that if they were obeying, and a GBC was not, they had the spiritual power to reject that false authority, as we saw occur recently at the Long Island Iskcon temple. But I get the jist.
As for your last jibe,
“Will you just come out and admit that you are a ritvikvadi? I am sure people like Mark are hoping you will”
I only hope that we all can discern the truth through honest discussion and what ever we need to label ourselves in order to distinguish our allegiance, if it reflects the truth we uncover then so be it.
Best regards from your servant,
Mark
Hare KrishnaPosted by shiva das @ 12/02/2005 01:18 PM PST
Praghosa you wrote:
If you avail yourself of the opportunity to associate with devotees - wherever you live - I believe you and many of the others might have a different understanding of or feeling for devotees both in the temples and those who offer their service from the outside.
Different understanding or feeling then what? Your point really made no sense since it was based on the above atatement which made no sense. No one here is whimsically and with a broad stroke denigrating vaisnavas who are working with Iskcon. They have specific ideas and complaints about specific policies and activities of specific vaisnavas or of Iskcon management.
Clearly you are a ritvik but are afraid to come out and say it even though though you have made it clear you have the same philosophy.I have said it before and I will continue to say "ISKCON" has it about 90% correct. In order for them to survive as the mission Srila Prabhupada left us - with a functioning GBC body to protect the mission - they will need to align the office of diksa guru 100% in line with Srila Prabhupada's guidance and leave their misaffection for the teachings of HH Sridhara Swami behind them. The two instructions are not equal. One supports the "natural progress" of Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON mission, while the other breaks the mission into fiefdoms.
My understanding of what Sridhara Maharaja advised was that all of the Iskcon temples were to be centered around Srila Prabhupada and that new diksa gurus should start their own temples as part of but separate from Iskcon. In this way those gurus would have a place to act like a guru to their disciples instead of acting like puppets controlled by the GBC. He made the point that a guru in our tradition is the authority and that authority is directly derived from God. If that authority is not a real authority but under the control of the GBC, then what is the position of the GBC? God?
A guru is an authority due to his spiritual potency derived from God. To put the guru under the control of an ecclesiastical body undermines the faith of the disciples in the guru and the gurus freedom to act on inspiration from God. So Sridhara Maharaja's advice was for the gurus to work within Iskcon but to also start their own temples so they could be in charge instead of being controlled by the GBC.
He advised leaving the temples in Iskcon which at that time were populated by mostly Srila Prabhupada's disciples, as places where Srila Prabhupada was worshipped as Guru and no one else. There the GBC would have total authority.
I think it's a good plan.
The GBC didn't follow that advice, they split up Srila Prabhupada's temples and installed a zonal acarya to we worshipped and have total control over the zone and all the devotees. They then blamed Sridhara Maharaja for inspiring the Zonal Acharya system.
This is documented by Paramadvaiti Swami at http://www.vrindavan.org/bap/GB/
Your problem with Iskcon seems to be the same problem the ritvikvadis have i.e they believe that spiritual masters other then Srila Prabhupada being recognized as gurus within Iskcon is a deviation from what Srila Prabhupada wanted. Will you just come out and admit that you are a ritvikvadi? I am sure people like Mark are hoping you will.Posted by Anon @ 12/02/2005 12:54 PM PST
FOR ROCANA:
"TWAS THE NIGHT BEFORE CHRISTMAS"
Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the temple
Not a devotee was stirring, not even a ritvik.
The tulasi was placed by the chiminey with care,
and I wondered if Rocana Das would soon be there.
The siksa gurus were nestled all snug in their beds,
while visions of a new ISKCON danced in their heads
And devotees wearing tilaka, and I with my japa beads,
we had all wracked our heads, wondering where all this would lead.
When out on the lawn there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from my sleeping bag to see what was the matter.
Away to the window I flew like a flash,
Opened the shutters and almost got gashed!
The moon on the breast of the new fallen snow,
Gave a luster of mid-day to weird things below.
When, what to my wondering eyes should appear,
But Rocana das, his cronies and eight tiny reindeer.
Rocana was lively and quick. I knew in a moment a diksa would get licked!
More rapid than eagles his coursers they came,
and Rocana shouted and yelled, and called Diksas by name!
Now Danavir! Now Satsvarupa! Now, Anon and Praghosa Das.
On, ISKCON, On fault-finding, on let's conquer the world!
To the top of the temple! To the top of the wall!
Let's extricate those who have all the gall!
As ritviks before the wild hurricane fly,
When they meet with ISKCON-ites, they run to the sky.
So up to the temple-top they flew,
With a sleigh full of ideas, and Rocana Das too.
As I drew in my head, and was turning around,
Down the chiminey Rocana came with a bound!
He was dressed all in saffron from his head to his foot,
and his dhoti was all tarnished with ashes and soot.
A bundle of changes were flung on his back,
And he looked somewhat nervous as he opened his sack.
His eyes were real red. His gowls grew much deeper.
His cheeks were quite sunken, his nose was a sleeper.
His cruel little mouth was drawn down like a bow,
and when he saw I was pro-ISKCON he turned white as the snow.
I knew he was angry because he held down his teeth,
I was confused and scared, should I tie him with my wreath?
Rocana had gained some weight as he had a round belly,
I laughed as it reminded me of a bowlful of prasadam jelly.
Rocana wasn't a jolly old elf, and I was afraid, and tried to
hide my laugh in spite of myself.
A wink of his eye and a twist of his head,
Soon gave me to know I definitely had something to dread.
Rocana went straight to his work, which was to inform me real quick,
That his ideas are gospel and that I was a twit!
Rocana suddenly sprang up when his cronies rang a bell,
And away they all flew like bats out of hell!
But I heard Rocana exclaim, as he drove out of sight,
"I'll come back next year, to continue my plight!"
********************
Gee, I won'y be put on the "Jai-Fry" list will I? Sob, sob.Posted by Mark @ 12/02/2005 08:39 AM PST
Dear Praghosa Das,
Please forgive my misspelling of your name.
Thank you.
Hare KrishnaPosted by mark @ 12/02/2005 08:34 AM PST
Dear Pragosha Das,
Please accept my respectful obeisances.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!
You wrote:
"I have said it before and I will continue to say "ISKCON" has it about 90% correct. In order for them to survive as the mission Srila Prabhupada left us - with a functioning GBC body to protect the mission - they will need to align the office of diksa guru 100% in line with Srila Prabhupada's guidance and leave their misaffection for the teachings of HH Sridhara Swami behind them."
Would you please present which instructions of Srila Prabhupada which, if followed by the GBC, would lead to the realignment of the "office of Diksa Guru" with how he wanted it.
Would you also present your on idea on how that office is out of alignment currently, and in light of that, what steps the GBC would need to take as a transition to implimenting the proper method as per Srila Prabhupada's instructions.
Thank you for your concern.
Hare Krishna
y.s.
MarkPosted by praghosa das @ 12/02/2005 07:54 AM PST
Mother Renuka
I have consistently emphasized two points.
1. Every one needs to take full shelter of THE BONAFIDE SPIRITUAL MASTER and the qualities and verifiable features of THAT person are clearly given by HDG in all of his purports.
2. Approaching THAT personality has been arranged perfectly by HDG through the formation of his ISKCON mission. He - Srila Prabhupada is permanently fixed as THE CURRENT LINK in to the Disciplic Succession and our approaching and taking full shelter of Srila Prabhupada as our ETERNAL SPIRITUAL MASTER has been expertly arranged by Srila Prabhupada Himself.
I can assure you that you could find many men within ISKCON who do not share this view with me.
Thus your statement "Praghosa prabhu certainly is a perfect example of the status quo of present Iskcon management." is hardly close to reality.
This site Sampradaya Sun has set itself as aloof from and the self appointed critic of ISKCON. Rocana Prabhu has established a positon for himself by means of this site. I do not object. It is a free world - more or less. We are free to do whatever - and then accept the results. This is the way the Lord has made the world.
So the value to what we find or contribute here is relative and very subjective. It can only be thus. We can and will take what we value or agree with and discard the balance.
But practicing Krsna Consciousness on a day to day basis was indeed made possible for us all by Srila Prabhupada. It is no more difficult today than it was 30 years ago. We need only seek out the assoication of devotees that we can resonate with and then with them, both delight in Kirtan in the shelter of Dieties and hearing from Srila Prabhupada and also sharing this with others.
If my saying this - literally over and over - offends you or your find it representing some horribly unwanted or unlovable aspect of "ISKCON" - then you might wish to reevaluate your understanding of things.
I could be mistaken but the impression I receive from most of the writings of Rocan Prabhu and most of the men and women who write here - have little to no contact with any regular temple program or with devotees who are not likewise highly charged with dislike for the ISKCON temples. As I said - I could be mistaken.
If you avail yourself of the opportunity to associate with devotees - wherever you live - I believe you and many of the others might have a different understanding of or feeling for devotees both in the temples and those who offer their service from the outside.
The general devotees throughout the world are actually most delightful and amazing. I mean that 100%. Do you know who is Murari Gupta Das in Mumbai? Do you know who is Gauranga Priya das or Radha Krsna prabhu? Do you you know who Udayananda Das is? How about Mother Radhanga Dasi? Do you know who Panca Gauda Prabhu is? Or how about Badarayana Das? Do you know Brigupati Das in Los Angeles? How about MOther Satya in New York? Do you know who Adi Purusa das is in New York? The list is endless! I am only scratching the surface but these devotees are amazing! Do you know Adi deva and his family? Have you EVER heard his son and daughter lead kirtan playing drum and singing? What about Mother Mohanasini dasi who has been on samkirtan and organizing book distribtution for nearly 25 years in the heart of New Orleans? Have you ever spent an entire day or week with any of these individuals?
I think you get my point. I am only naming but a few devotees. Just a teeny tiny drop in the bucket of devotees who are wonderfully absorbed in sharing Srila Prabhupada and Krsna with the world. Each of us could compile a list of all the wonderful and amazing devotees we have come to respect and cherish over the years. I literally know hundreds of them. I am sure you do as well if you ponder it.
There are many many many many devotees - all over the globe - who are working hard to help bring ISKCON to where it should be in relation to Srila Prabhupada's desire. One could say "ISKCON" is a work in progress. After all we all came saturated with the four defects and they do wreak havoc when we are not careful or obedient.
I do not represent ISKCON or its "elite" as Rocan has disparaged his brothers and sisters who remained in their service to their respective Dieties and communities. Most committed Temple Presidents in Srila Prabhupada's mission have neither the time or inclination to do other than the very service they have been given. Perhaps Rocan deems his site and service to be "God Given" and the mandate to stamp out "rouguism" as his solemn duty. Time will tell.
I have said it before and I will continue to say "ISKCON" has it about 90% correct. In order for them to survive as the mission Srila Prabhupada left us - with a functioning GBC body to protect the mission - they will need to align the office of diksa guru 100% in line with Srila Prabhupada's guidance and leave their misaffection for the teachings of HH Sridhara Swami behind them. The two instructions are not equal. One supports the "natural progress" of Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON mission, while the other breaks the mission into fiefdoms.
I wish to encourage you to take advantage of the closest temple you can. Attend the arotik and kirtan. Cook for Their Lordships. If possible go on Hari Nama samkirtan or book distribution. Buy some books and distribute them. Do whatever you can - that is if you are not already doing any or all of this and more. See where you can assist your LOCAL TEMPLE PRESIDENT and the assembly in their daily service to the established Dieties of the Their Lordships. You might feel significantly better about everything. Then in time - you can offer some thoughts on how the samkirtan can be increased and the standards for Their Lordships service can be improved also.
These are just some general ideas.
But just as Srila Prabhupada said that the "Petrol Problem" could be solved by "Living locally" so too all problems in our spiritual life and the life of the devotees can be solved by "living locally". Being primarilay concerned with the practice of KC within our family, then our temple and community and then the world.
Hope this is helpful in some way.
Thank You for your patiencePosted by bb das @ 12/02/2005 05:37 AM PST
Anon, please don't be so callous.
What devotees have had to go through with these guys is not amusing or entertaining and if you think it is, you deserve more of their "assosciation".Posted by anon @ 12/02/2005 03:02 AM PST
Oh, Rocana....Rocana. I find your choice of words quite entertaining. Please don't tell me there is no "Santa Claus."
Posted by Nitya Siddha dasa @ 12/01/2005 05:32 PM PST
Renuka DD has made a very good point about how ISKCON'S elite and followers now represent a minority of vaishnava opinion world wide,and a dwindling minority at that.Let's put things into perspective,there are probably less than 200 devotees in ISKCON that wholeheartedly accept ISKCON as a pure representation of Srila Prabhupadas preaching plan.Amongst those I would not doubt that there are some reservations and misgivings.These "Elite" few and thier niave followers do not represent the majority body of Vaishnava opinion worldwide.Amongst those few Elite are a small number of individuals who seem to be pre-occupied with toxic shaming those that they consider "fallen" outside of ISKCON posting home truths about ISKCON'S past on this websites bloggs and other forums.One such ELITE member has even gone so far as to say that this website(Sampradaya Sun)is not a preaching website,but merely a disscussion website.This same person has also stated that preaching is only quoting from Srimad Bhagavatam,Bhagavad Gita etc,This in my opinion represents an extremely narrow minded view of preaching.Of course the Sampradaya Sun is a preaching website,but instead of presenting us with a sanitised view of ISKCON censored through the eyes of "Only what we want you to know and believe policies"of thier authors,Sampradaya Sun presents the truth and also gives a more realistic and broad picture of today's Vaishnavism in an ever changing world.It also gives the reader the chance to respond to these articles in open disscussion and debate on the blogg pages.Of course Sampradaya Sun is a preaching website as all of the subject matter are topics about Krishna Consciousness.But at the same time it is also a disscussion website.So,yes Sampradaya sun is both a preaching and disscussion website and I believe it's author intended it to be.The handful of toxic shamers may bleat thier narrow minded critisisms and dismissals,but the rest of us know that Krishna consciousness is a much more Universal and all encompassing philosophy than the opinions of a few institutionally stereotyped Elitists.
Your servant,
Nitya Siddha dasa (UK)Posted by Rocana dasa @ 12/01/2005 02:44 PM PST
It is not my usual practice to respond to blogs submitted by anonymous posters, especially when they're party line parrots. The only reason given by Anon for his/her being anonymous is they "have their reasons". Whatever the reason, our Anon blogger has inadvertently given me an opportunity to further address the forbidden topic of who Satsvarupa dasa Goswami actually is.
Let me begin at my beginning, in terms of my acquaintance with HH Satsvarupa Goswami, which goes way back to the time of Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON lila days. Most memorably, I knew Satsvarupa Goswami in the mid-seventies, when he was assigned as my GBC while I held the Temple President post in Seattle. Even back then, Satsvarupa Goswami projected an undeserved 'saintly aura'. Anon is a breathing testimonial to that false image, which is still being blindly accepted amongst the naïve, uninformed rank and file within ISKCON.
Recently in the Sun I engaged in a heated debate with Dvijapriya dasi, who commented on my editorial about Kirtanananda dasa. Our debate primarily dealt with an unforgettable and most despicable chapter in ISKCON’s history known euphemistically as the “Women’s Parties”. Believe me, it was no party for the unfortunate women who were cajoled into surrendering to be abused by unscrupulous leaders. One of these leaders was Satsvarupa Goswami.
At the time, I was the Temple President of Seattle and Satsvarupa Goswami was my GBC. He was also the GBC of Berkeley CA. Aside from the fact that Satsvarupa Goswami was hands-down one of the most useless GBC I ever had (and believe me, I had plenty) it was a well-known shared opinion amongst Temple Presidents at that time that if you’d prefer not to have a GBC, then try and get Satsvarupa Goswami. Given how much he hated management, it was a mystery to me why he accepted the responsibility in the first place, other than the desire for power and prestige that goes with the territory. In his falldown apology, he blamed his migraines on the burden of his management activities. At the time, however, he was eager to accept all these duties, even though he was totally unqualified to take them, and others were available who were qualified.
Let me also summarize Satsvarupa Goswami's full support for the women’s party episode. Satsvarupa protected and encouraged the illicit women’s party practice even when he was made fully aware of the all the underlying truths. He actively tried to sabotage the report I compiled along with the head of the BBT, Jagannath Suta dasa. Satsvarupa did everything within his power to see that the report did not reach the GBC in Mayapura and subsequently come to the attention of Srila Prabhupada.
Near the time of Srila Prabhupada’s departure, Satsvarupa and I flew together to Vrindavin. Shortly after arriving, he ordered me to return Seattle. This was just prior to Srila Prabhupada’s departure. He was more concerned about the Xmas marathon results than about me having the once in many lifetimes opportunity to be with my Spiritual Master at the time of his departure. In other words, the saintly devotee image projected by this person was false even during Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON lila days.
Satsvarupa's front and center, enthusiastic participation in ISKCON’s dark-ages, the post-samadhi Zonal Acarya period, is very well documented. The up-front Ksatriya types like Tamal Krsna Goswami, Bhagavan dasa, Ramesvara Swami, etc. have historically taken the limelight for this era, but in fact, it was the brahminical types like Satsvarupa Goswami and Hridayananda dasa who were most instrumental in initially gaining society wide compliance in the Zonal Acarya scheme. Satsvarupa Goswami penned all their bogus “position papers”. He preached vigorously in defense of the Zonal Acarya concept. He sat by and allowed Pradyumna and Yasoda nandana das to be thrown out for disagreeing with the Zonal Acarya strategy.
A vast majority of Srila Prabhupada disciples back then didn’t like or trust Tamal Krishna one bit. Satsvarupa Goswami was another story, however. His phony brahminical image and close association with the other Zonal aspirants convinced most ISKCON rank and file to think there must some real truth behind all the hype. Of course, history shows that nearly all the ISKCON-ites at the time were taken in. More than anything else, this was due to Satsvarupa Goswami's mythical brahminical demeanor and the a-siddhantic position papers he penned.
Not long after the Zonal Acarya take over, Satsvarupa was deputed on behalf of the Zonal Acarya cabal to write the "Lilamrita". To accomplish this task, the Zonals awarded him, directly from Srila Prabhupada's BBT account, hundreds of thousands of dollars and the use of many valuable personalities for research, editing, lay-out and other tasks. This money and manpower could and should have been utilized for printing and distributing Srila Prabhupada’s books.
An important footnote to the Lilamrta episode is that all the copious research, which included thousands of interviews taken throughout the planet, mysteriously and completely burned-up in an unheated shack at Gita Nagai, near Satsvarupa's cabin. There was no electricity in that shack, nor other source that might have caused the mysterious fire to start. Naturally there was neither investigation nor explanation. Of course, this suspicious factoid is little known due to ISKCON’s cover-up policy. Today no one, not even the famous editors Jayadvaita and Dravida, can insure the accuracy of the Lilamrita by going back to the original transcripts, as they now do with Srila Prabhupada’s books.
Let’s also not forget Satsvarupa Goswami's active participation in the infamous “Gopi Bhava Club” of the early 1990’s. The Narayana Maharaja folks proudly include Satsvarupa's letters on their websites, as proof positive that Narayana Maharaja is bonafide. The Teflon Swami dodges yet another bullet.
The ever-mysterious Satsvarupa Goswami becomes increasingly bizarre as time goes by, even up to the present. The “anon” poster is either protected from knowing the truth surrounding the mentally imbalanced, reclusive, Howard Hughes-like character, or is part of the charade. Anon's IP address indicates he's situated in Mountain View, California, which is in the same general area as Satsvarupa. Could Anon be a Satsvarupa groupie? The “creative” Swami is now comfortably residing in a self-designed “Looney bin” in rural California, along the coast north of San Francisco.
The telltale symptoms of insanity are evident in Satsvarupa's abnormally weird books and art. These materials are very easy to Goggle. Just type in "Satsvarupa" and see what pops-up. I’ll leave the reader to embark upon their own research. Satsvarupa's cultist followers have made no attempt to hide his “goofy” madness from the outside world. ISKCON authorities can do nothing to put a stop to his craziness, which publicly shadows ISKCON's image in the world. Satsvarupa is projecting just the kind of negative impression our critics are, when they brand us Hare Krsna’s as “crazy cultists”. Satsvarupa is right there, the perfect example for all to see.
So long as the bogus “Lilamrta” biography is out in the world with Satsvarupa Goswami as the author, ISKCON has no other choice but to ignore Satsvarupa and hope Sri Krsna will act in a similar dramatic manner as He has done with other past ex-Zonals. In the meantime, Satsvarupa can be found all over the Net for anyone online to witness:http://www.sdgonline.org/artwork/images.htm
http://iskcon.krishna.org/Articles/2005/02/Satsvarupa.html
http://www.thekrishnastore.com/Search.bok?custom1=satsvarupa&bar=_shp_books
By going to the site of ISKCON's approved online booksellers, we that Satsvarupa's books are being blown-out at bargain basement prices. They are even cheaper on Ebay, which began to be flooded with the Swami's books after his public falldown apology. The exception, of course, is ISKCON's official biography of Srila Prabhupada, the “Lilamrita”.
According the our Anonymous blogger:“[Rocana is) obviously a very hurt and angry devotee (ex-devotee???) and it is a shame that you see fit to vent your venom on a public forum.”
In Anon's mind, however, Satsvarupa Goswami is to be glorified:"the "Lilamrta" was written by Satsvarupa Das Goswami who was a close and intimate disciple of Srila Prabhupada. He was also one of his first disciples back at 26 Second Avenue in NYC in the beginning of the movement as I'm sure you are aware. He was also the most qualified being a writer in general. Having taken up this awesome task and being blessed with this great service, you in turn, are doing a great disservice.”
The Sun reader has been offered another opportunity to exercise their God-given freewill in deciding which perspective on the Swami they will accept. At least we have tried to provide a few myth destroying facts.
The blind acceptance of mythical institutional characters is mundane religiosity, run amuck. The certifiably insane are openly glorified, and their speculative perceptions of the bona fide Sampradaya Acarya are accepted as gospel truth. In the world that “Anon” lives in, the historical truth-tellers are proclaimed to be “ex-devotee” offenders, while the wacky madmen are their heroes.
In truth, I’m the one who should remain anonymous so as to protect myself from physical harm. We have gained some insight into the unstable minds of dangerous cult followers who support these past institutional 'heroes'. The only upside is that sincere devotees can gain further insight as to the hellish nature found in this material world. Beware! Even those chanting the Hare Krsna mantra can be dangerously illusioned if they repose their loving propensity in the pseudo-Acarya.Posted by renuka dd @ 12/01/2005 03:04 AM PST
Hare Krishna all Glories to Srila Prabhupada!
What often is forgotten that there's worldwide a huge number of devotees, maybe more than those living within Iskcon, who feel their lives being spoiled by Iskcon leaders. So called leaders who often meanwhile left the movement leaving behind huge piles of shards, one example, Harikes. Praghosa prabhu certainly is a perfect example of the status quo of present Iskcon management. Everything concerning people who were mobbed out of Iskcon, forced to start from zero in the karmis association is for them peanuts, a short laugh. No examination, no clearification, no repent, and thats what makes people feel realy offended by Iskcon's elite.
________________________________
How many forum members does it takes to change a light bulb?
1 to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been changed.
14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently.
7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs.
1 to move it to the Lighting section.
2 to argue then move it to the Electricals section.
7 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs.
5 to flame the spell checkers
3 to correct spelling/grammar flames.
6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb" ... another 6 to condemn those 6 as stupid.
2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is "lamp".
15 know-it-alls who claim they were in the industry, and that "light bulb" is perfectly correct.
19 to post that this forum is not about light bulbs and to please take this discussion to a lightbulb forum.
11 to defend the posting to this forum saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this forum.
36 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique and what brands are faulty.
7 to post URL's where one can see examples of different light bulbs.
4 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and then post the corrected URL's.
3 to post about links they found from the URL's that are relevant to this group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group.
13 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all headers and signatures, and add "Me too".
5 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy.
4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?".
13 to say "do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions about light bulbs".
1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again.Posted by bb das @ 12/01/2005 01:11 AM PST
Dear Vijay,
Thank you for your honest reply.
I heard Srila Gour Govinda Swami personally and on tape stating how he was repeatedly ordered by Srila Prabhupada to make his own men/disciples; both directly and through a letter.
I also do not doubt his purity or statements.
The letter may be with disciples in Bhubaneswar.
All the best.
ys
bb dasPosted by anon @ 11/30/2005 07:20 PM PST
Rocana Prabhu: In reconsideration of my previous statement in a previous blog regarding that SS should be torn down etc. I apologize. In retrospect, I do enjoy reading the informative and colorful articles and newsworthy items. Perhaps the site should just stay that way and the debates and polls (especially about actively engaged Vaisnavas) should take place on another forum. Just a thought. My change of heart is is not motivated by trickery but an attempt to correct myself and control my anger at what I feel are unfair. Hare Krsna.
Posted by shiva das @ 11/30/2005 12:56 PM PST
Praghosa you wrote:
All ya'll (I luv that sweet Mississipi spression!) need to remember that this is all goin on in cyber space and iffin you had the chance to chant together for 3 hours and go on Hari Nama or Book distribution for 3 days together and THEN SAT DOWN TO A New Talavan Feast - after a smoking class from some nice devotee - no body would say half the crapola we say.
And why would you come to that conclusion? That remark may seem like some kind of unpretentious attempt at camaraderie, but really it's a pretentious snide putdown of everyone posting here as well as trivializing whatever was written.
Don't think about things, don't discuss past mistakes in order to learn from them, don't debate issues of importance to various people, just chant and dance. No need to express your concerns or opinions on topics we consider of relevance or importance to our or our childrens or others futures.
Just chant and dance etc and all of your concerns will magically vanish.
Thanks Praghosa, it is all so simple, I can see that now. You may want to consider something though. Most of the people here did or are chanting and dancing etc for many years, yet here we are with our crapola.
Maybe we need to see with the eyes of knowledge rather then seeing with the eyes of passion and sentimentality.
manasa vacasa drishtya
grihyate 'nyair apindriyaih
aham eva na matto 'nyad
iti budhyadhvam anjasa
Within this world, whatever is perceived by the mind, speech, eyes or other senses is Me alone and nothing besides Me. All of you please understand this by a straightforward analysis of the facts.
yo mam pasyati sarvatra
sarvam ca mayi pasyati
tasyaham na pranasyami
sa ca me na pranasyati
For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me.Posted by bb das @ 11/30/2005 11:44 AM PST
To the legend,
Prabhu, your mood is anything but light. Your realizations are light though.
It sounds a bit speculative and fanatical if ya really want to know the truth.
…Sounds like you have already gone “Nuts” to be honest witch’ya.
…Sounds like ya’ need to pick up the old bead bag Prabhu.
ys
bb dasPosted by praghosa das @ 11/30/2005 09:10 AM PST
Hello BB das
I use slang for fun prabhu. Ya'll take yourselves way too seriously in all of this stuff. I just try to lighten the mood a bit. You don't like it- don't read it. I am just funnin' witcha prabhuji. Lighten up fore ya'll go nuts. This stuff ain't that difficult or hard to unnerstan or deal wit!
All ya'll (I luv that sweet Mississipi spression!) need to remember that this is all goin on in cyber space and iffin you had the chance to chant together for 3 hours and go on Hari Nama or Book distribution for 3 days together and THEN SAT DOWN TO A New Talavan Feast - after a smoking class from some nice devotee - no body would say half the crapola we say.
So lighten up Yosemite Sam! You gall darn varmints are ALL dear to Lord Chaitanya! Each and every one a ya!
Hare Krsna
YS (The Fat Headed and newly tagged "LAZY" Legend!!)
Hey that has mighty nice ring to it!! FAT HEADED LAZY LEGEND! I am gonna see if I can't get my Portuguese Honey to start purring that one to me when I'm down! "Come here and kiss me like you mean it my sweet Fat Headed Lazy Legend! or "You better love me tonight or leave me forever my Lazy Fat headed Lazy Legend!!"Posted by praghosa das @ 11/30/2005 08:53 AM PST
Bhakta Bill,
Your question I assme is this.
"Dear Praghosa Prabhu,
Srila Prabhupada and the Vedas teach that one has to be a liberated soul (beyond anartha nivritti) to be able to take specific dictation and direction from the Caitya guru; Sri Guru.
How does one receive personal specific dictation and instructions from Srila Prabhupada now that he is not physically manifested?
If one who is not truly liberated can receive that type of guidance, why do acaryas keep having to appear?
Why don't we just hear from Lord Brahma, Lord Caitanya or Srila Rupa Goswami?
If you could clearly explain that, I would appreciate it.
So first you ask:
1. How does one receive personal specific dictation and instructions from Srila Prabhupada now that he is not physically manifested?
In Bhagavad Gita 18:57 Srila Prabhupada states:
cetasā sarva-karmāṇi
mayi sannyasya mat-paraḥ
buddhi-yogam upāśritya
mac-cittaḥ satataḿ bhava
TRANSLATION
In all activities just depend upon Me and work always under My protection. In such devotional service, be fully conscious of Me.
PURPORT
When one acts in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he does not act as the master of the world. Just like a servant, one should act fully under the direction of the Supreme Lord. A servant has no individual independence. He acts only on the order of the master. A servant acting on behalf of the supreme master is unaffected by profit and loss. He simply discharges his duty faithfully in terms of the order of the Lord. Now, one may argue that Arjuna was acting under the personal direction of Kṛṣṇa but when Kṛṣṇa is not present how should one act? If one acts according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa in this book, as well as under the guidance of the representative of Kṛṣṇa, THEN THE RESULT WILL BE THE SAME. The Sanskrit word mat-paraḥ is very important in this verse. It indicates that one has no goal in life save and except acting in Kṛṣṇa consciousness just to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. And while working in that way, one should think of Kṛṣṇa only: "I have been appointed to discharge this particular duty by Kṛṣṇa." While acting in such a way, one naturally has to think of Kṛṣṇa. THIS IS PERFECT KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS. One should, however, note that after doing something whimsically he should not offer the result to the Supreme Lord. That sort of duty is not in the devotional service of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. One should act according to the order of Kṛṣṇa. This is a very important point. That order of Kṛṣṇa comes through disciplic succession from the bona fide spiritual master. Therefore the spiritual master's order should be taken as the prime duty of life. If one gets a bona fide spiritual master and acts according to his direction, then one's perfection of life in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is guaranteed.
Also there are four wonderful verses in the 10th Chapter which deal with this as well. Chief of which is this:
TEXT 10
tesam satata-yuktanam
bhajatam priti-purvakam
dadami buddhi-yogam tam
yena mam upayanti te
TRANSLATION
To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me.
PURPORT
In this verse the word buddhi-yogam is very significant. We may remember that in the Second Chapter the Lord, instructing Arjuna, said that He had spoken to him of many things and that He would instruct him in the way of buddhi-yoga. Now buddhi-yoga is explained. Buddhi-yoga itself is action in Krsna consciousness; that is the highest intelligence. Buddhi means intelligence, and yoga means mystic activities or mystic elevation. When one tries to go back home, back to Godhead, and takes fully to Krsna consciousness in devotional service, his action is called buddhi-yogam. In other words, buddhi-yogam is the process by which one gets out of the entanglement of this material world. The ultimate goal of progress is Krsna. People do not know this; therefore the association of devotees and a bona fide spiritual master are important. One should know that the goal is Krsna, and when the goal is assigned, then the path is slowly but progressively traversed, and the ultimate goal is achieved.
When a person knows the goal of life but is addicted to the fruits of activities, he is acting in karma-yoga. When he knows that the goal is Krsna, but he takes pleasure in mental speculations to understand Krsna, he is acting in jnana-yoga. And when he knows the goal and seeks Krsna completely in Krsna consciousness and devotional service, he is acting in bhakti-yoga, or buddhi-yoga, which is the complete yoga. This complete yoga is the highest perfectional stage of life.
A person may have a bona fide spiritual master and may be attached to a spiritual organization, but still, if he is not intelligent enough to make progress, then Krsna from within gives him instructions so that he may ultimately come to Him without difficulty. The qualification is that a person always engage himself in Krsna consciousness and with love and devotion render all kinds of services. He should perform some sort of work for Krsna, and that work should be with love. If a devotee is intelligent enough, he will make progress on the path of self-realization. If one is sincere and devoted to the activities of devotional service, the Lord gives him a chance to make progress and ultimately attain to Him.
As Srila Prabhupada told us "I will live forever in my books - and you will utilize".
Of course not everyone is interested in taking advantage Prabhu. But I am sure you are.
Your next question.
2. If one who is not truly liberated can receive that type of guidance, why do acaryas keep having to appear?
The Acharya is always here. Always. The Acharya is non-different from Lord Sri Krsna Himself. Whenever there is some break in the disciplic succession - or at the sweet will of the Lord - He manifests as the Acharya
You can be happy to know that Srila Prabhupada -THE ACHARYA - has appeared prabhu. In 1896 Srila Prabhupada was sent to this world by Lord Chaitanya Himself. You will be delighted to know that his coming was actually predicted by the great Acharya Bhaktivinode Thakur who described Srila Prabhupada as one of the "GReat Generals of Lord Chaitanyas Samkirtan Mission". Srila Bhaktissiddhanta Saraswati Thakur also predicted that "In time...Srila Prabhupada would accomplish everything".
Now in Bhagavad Gita 4th Chapter it is described by Lord Krsna thus as to how this "Need" for the Acharya is met. He calmly states:
TEXT 2
evam parampara-praptam
imam rajarsayo viduh
sa kaleneha mahata
yogo nastah parantapa
TRANSLATION
This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost.
PURPORT
It is clearly stated that the Gita was especially meant for the saintly kings because they were to execute its purpose in ruling over the citizens. Certainly Bhagavad-gita was never meant for the demonic persons, who would dissipate its value for no one's benefit and would devise all types of interpretations according to personal whims. As soon as the original purpose was scattered by the motives of the unscrupulous commentators, there arose the need to reestablish the disciplic succession. Five thousand years ago it was detected by the Lord Himself that the disciplic succession was broken, and therefore He declared that the purpose of the Gita appeared to be lost. In the same way, at the present moment also there are so many editions of the Gita (especially in English), but almost all of them are not according to authorized disciplic succession. There are innumerable interpretations rendered by different mundane scholars, but almost all of them do not accept the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, although they make a good business on the words of Sri Krsna. This spirit is demonic, because demons do not believe in God but simply enjoy the property of the Supreme. Since there is a great need of an edition of the Gita in English, as it is received by the parampara (disciplic succession) system, an attempt is made herewith to fulfill this great want. Bhagavad-gita--accepted as it is--is a great boon to humanity; but if it is accepted as a treatise of philosophical speculations, it is simply a waste of time."
If we pay close attention we find Srila Prabhupada exposes the defect:
"As soon as the original purpose was scattered by the motives of the unscrupulous commentators, there arose the need to reestablish the disciplic succession."
and the "fix":
"Since there is a great need of an edition of the Gita in English, as it is received by the parampara (disciplic succession) system, an attempt is made herewith to fulfill this great want. Bhagavad-gita--accepted as it is--is a great boon to humanity;"
But it needs to be accepted correctly as the authorized connection to the unblemished disciplic succession, otherwise Srila Prabhupada emphasizes "but if it is accepted as a treatise of philosophical speculations, it is simply a waste of time."
So I want to encourage you prabhu to take full advantage of this great contribution prabhu. Srila Prabhupada asserts in the above mentioned purport from BG 18:57 "If one acts according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa in this book, as well as under the guidance of the representative of Kṛṣṇa, then the result will be the same."
THE SAME!!! Is that not most wonderful? We are all so fortunate.
I apologise for not answering your question sooner. It slipped by me as there were a number of comments that begged some kind of response.
I am sure that Srila Prabhupada's wonderful guidance here will bring great happiness to your heart and fill you with the confidence needed to either distribute his books yourself or help the samkirtan party with a generous monthly portion of your hard earned income to subsidize this distribution in your local temple. If you work cooperatively with your local temple and help them with their efforts to reach out to the community with this simiple solution - you will be fully capable of bringing the entire community in contact with The Acharya Srila Prabhupada.
Thanks for your patience prabhuPosted by anon @ 11/29/2005 06:41 PM PST
Oh, Braja...you silly goose! Going to that website and reading those quotes, while illuminating has nothing whatsoever to do with what I was addressing in my recent blog. I suggest you re-read the entire "Prabhupada Lilamrta" and then review Satsvarupa
s Dasa Goswamis ewntire devotional career. If you and I canm execute just a fraction of what he accomplished in 30 years than let me bow down at your lotus feet!Posted by Braja @ 11/29/2005 05:08 PM PST
Anyone who questions those who criticize Lilamrta should please read: http://www.harekrsna.com/philosophy/vada/writings2/lilamrta1.htm
Posted by Vijay @ 11/29/2005 03:55 PM PST
Haribol BB prabhu, I meant no offence when asking for the reference to the written statement regarding he should initiate. Im just not aware of it so wanted to know, im not questioning his purity I have been reading his lectures for years from the gopal jiu website.
Posted by anon @ 11/29/2005 03:16 PM PST
Rocana Das: With all due respect, the "Prabhupada Lilamrta" opinions are totally out of line and do not reflect proper Vaisanava etiquette which gives away your supposed hidden persona. You like setting fires and then watch them burn.
The fact of the matter is this, the "Lilamrta" was written by Satsvarupa Das Goswami who was a close and intimate disciple of Srila Prabhupada. He was also one of his first disciples back at 26 Second Avenue in NYC in the beginning of the movement as I'm sure you are aware. He was also the most qualified being a writer in general. Having taken up this awesome task and being blessed with this great service, you in turn, are doing a great disservice.
You are also taking the things written in the book out of context and twisting the real purport of Srila Prabhupada's biography in general.
For example, in the latest poll you ask if the characterization in the book of Srila Prabhupada being "sick and penniless" etc is A-B-C-D without giving the reader another option which is, that in writing the biography which obviously has a "novelistic" approach, also incorporates many facts, letters, conversations etc. and in my opinion is a true and accurate account of Srila Prabhupada's lila prior to and after coming to the west. In no way having read the "Lilamrta" years ago did I find anyone who felt as you do about this biography until you stated this in your SS website. I'm shocked quite frankly. What has happened to you over the years? have you lost your mind?
What you fail to see the real import of the "Lilamrta."
I think that you are being very denigrating (as usual) and in turn, turning the attack on Satsvarupa Goswami as though you have a vendetta against certain members of ISKCON who made great sacrifices in Krsna consciousness to serve their nitya-siddha spiritual master HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and I am sure Srila Prabhupada would not approve of this unconscionaable behavior on your part. Think about it.
You are obviously a very hurt and angry devotee (ex-devotee???) and it is a shame that you see fit to vent your venom on a public forum.
My advice to you is this, why don't you write a biography of Srila Prabhupada that you envision it should be done rather than throw stones at devotees who live in glass houses? Hare Krsna.Posted by Mark @ 11/29/2005 12:46 PM PST
Dear Shiva Das,
I posted this quote in reference to the points I made in my essay.
“They shall, of course, still be considered as my disciples, not that they shall become your disciples, but you will be empowered by me to chant their beads and that is the same effect of binding master and disciple as if I were personally chanting.” (Letter, January 4, 1973).
Then you wrote,
(The ritviks don't usually use that quote in their arguments because no one questions the purpose of that instruction i.e Srila Prabhupada was too busy to personally decide and preside over all of the new devotees initiations so he tasked his representatives to act for him.)
My reply:
I have some brahminical qualities, but have not been appointed as a priest or ritvik.
I used that instruction to further illustrate the point in my essay that devotees of lesser adhikari can be a faithful via medium in the diksa process when carrying out the order of their mahabhagavat spiritual master.
Next you wrote,
(Then there is the other quote you posted:
“The executive directors who have herein designated are appointed for life. In the event of the death or failure to act for any reason of any of the said directors, a successor director or directors may be appointed by the remaining directors, provided the new director is my initiated disciple following strictly all the rules and regulations of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness as detailed in my books, and provided that there are never less than three (3) and five (5) executive directors acting at one time.”
That quote is irrelevant to the ritvik debate because it wasn't in reference to initiations it was in reference to GBC appointments.)
My reply:
I was using that piece of information to illustrate that regarding the choosing of successor directors, Srila Prabhupada stipulated that they must be His Initiated Disciple. Since only an executive director (GBC) was authorized to manage the ISKCON properties, and only an Initiated Disciple of Srila Prabhupada could become an executive director (GBC), and since this was His Divine Grace’s last will and testament, I conclude that being Divinely Graceful, Srila Prabhupada would have left some instruction as to how to insure that there would be Persons known as His Initiated Disciples after he left his body.
Next you wrote,
(Then there is the other quote you posted:
The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative.
That was from Tamal Krishna and it was in reference to initiations during Srila Prabhupadas presence. Nowhere in that letter from Tamal Krishna does he mention that the ritvik priests were supposed to continue on after Srila Prabhupada left the planet.)
My reply:
That quote was actually from Srila Prabhupada, duly recorded by his Secrectary Tamal Krishna. And thus a direct order to those in ISKCON at the time.
I have never seen any evidence where Srila Prabhupada issued an order which states that this aspect of the system of management of ISKCON was to cease upon his disappearance. Nor one which would countermand that order.
As far as I know this was the last order given in reference to the system of how initiations were to take place in ISKCON. And as ISKCON is not a mere ecclesiastical institution, but a divinely organized sadhana vehicle for the inhabitants of this planet, where in madhyama and kasnistha adhikari devotees of the Lord would be acting as brahmanas, performing priestly and educational duties, it seems fitting that such great devotees would continue the system of “managing” all aspects of ISKCON exactly as they were ordered to do. Especially since Srila Prabhupada ordered exactly that in his Last Will,
“The system of management will continue as it is now and there is no need of any change.”
Please know that I understand how people can conclude that many of the systems of management that Srila Prabhupada put in place were due to Srila Prabhupada’s lack of physical ability to perform certain tasks himself. But please remember, this was just a SYMPTOM of his disciples lack of adhikari qualification to be fully responsible for certain tasks.
And speculation of his reasons aside, I CAN speculate, but Will not. I am only intersted in the direct orders. And they always bear out after careful analytical scrutiny to be just what we need to follow.
Thus I present this for the purpose of clarifying Srila Prabhupada’s orders only.
Hare Krishna
Your servant,
MarkPosted by Bhakta Bill @ 11/29/2005 11:49 AM PST
Pragosh Prabhu,
Looks like Rocana sized you up from his first offering. It just took time for your swarupa (lower East Side) to come out.
Still waitin' for an answer to MY question that I asked you.
ysPosted by anon @ 11/29/2005 11:35 AM PST
I see the Battle of Kuruksetra continues. BB Das is on the money here. Looks like Rocana is taking some bruises but there are still more rounds to go. I took a vow not to gamble but I think Krsna will come out winning in this fight. If anyone has noticed, while all this in-fighting (I don't call it a debate) is going on, the world is going to hell. There is total chaos and we should be saving souls, right? Oh, and by the way, isn't speaking derogatorily about those actively engaged in preaching in ISKCON considered a "guru apharada?" Just curious. Or just plain bad manners?
Posted by bb das @ 11/29/2005 10:36 AM PST
Pragosh Prabhu,
Why don't you do what we all have done and "simply" read the comments and make up your own mind.
I know your used to gettin' service (being a legend and all that), but don't be so lazy.
Also, try to clean up the slang, we aren't on the lower east side anymore.
Your servant,
bb dasPosted by praghosa das @ 11/29/2005 09:48 AM PST
Hello again Shiva prabhu,
Thanks for your patience with me.
I have already given you a very full understanding of exactly what I understand that Srila Prabhupada did arrange for his ISKCON mission as it pertains to guru. If you you look through all my postings you will find that I have answered this - time and time again.
However - I will be happy to explain it one more time for you and the benefit of anyone who might be interested in hearing this from me.
Please understand that though I am a fat headed legendary jerk who had the ignorance and gall to support Srila Prabhupada's appointed representatives in Euprope for 5 years, possessed of unearthly arrogance and am demonstrably immature - what to speak of the fact that I am a dope smoking, drug pushing whoremongering chauvanist (check that I AIN'T no chauvanist - fact is I hate chauvanists! The only thing I despise more than a chauvanist is a woman who can't do what she is told!) I will go to my grave considering my lack of praisworthy qualifications to be totally disconnected from the historical facts of this case and their implications for every single man and woman on the face of the earth. Consequently - before I tell you what my "simple" postion is on this (Sorry Rocan just gettin' in a little noogie there!) - I will need a written committment from you and the collective "Rocan Posse" there that after I do so - you will refrain from beating the shit out of Praghosa for WHY he might see things as he does, HOW it reflects upon his character, and what his comments REALLY MEAN when he offers them.
Not that I care too terribly - I have been on samkirtan for 32 years and I have skin like a Rhino. Its just that I hate havin' to take the time to push past the bullshit (sacred stuff really!) in order to refocus the discussion.
So you give me your word that this nonsense will not revisit this discussion - and I will be happy to 'splain it to you!
Also just a little aside here. I asked you twice - very respectfully for a response to my simple inquiry about the rough stuff goin' on tween Rocan and Danavir.
You once again say "Praghosa I don't think there is any value in attempting to sum up a discussion where there were various topics touched upon. What is the use of such a summary?"
You see I didn't ask you "Hey Shiva - you think there would be any value in trying to sum up their little Donnybrook!" (That's Irish for "fight".
I asked you to give me your summary. It was important TO ME. To Praghosa!
Your answer is "I personally see no value in it - this is NOT important to Me -Shiva das. So I am not going to provide it.
So realize this. Your answer is "I do not have enough respect for you Praghosa to provide you - what you have asked for. I consider your question not worthy of my consideration. Now having said that - ANSWER ME THIS - where do you stand on guru blah blah blah blah....
Where did you learn this kind of behaviour. Was it from your family or friends? Or are you self taught? Where I come from - the Lower East Side of Detroit Michigan - you would be quickly disregarded for such actions.
If you are a man - you will answer me simple question. I ain't gonna let you off the hook so easy. Danavir skeedaddled. I am not so easily cowed. Like Prabhupada would sayto the Christains "We can discuss that question - but FIRST YOU ANSWER MY QUESTION. Why you are still killing.....
We are men and we can be friends. Brothers even. But this kind of rasa must be won not just handed on a silver platter. EArn it!
Answer my question. I did not ask for a summary of ALL THE topics. I askd for the "nuts and bolts" of their philosophcal dispute.
Bear in mind that I do indeed have a reason for asking.
Most Respectfully
The Arrogant Fat Headed Legend(No I am not talking about Johhny Cash or Elvis!)...you know who!Posted by bb das @ 11/29/2005 06:56 AM PST
I'm sorry I forgot to mention Gour Govinda Maharaja's deep sastric knowledge and ability to readily quote a vast array of all Vedic scriptures substantiating all the tattvas and establishing the Gaudia Vaisnava siddhanta.
He also was able to reestablish faith in the hearts of those devotees whose previous "Guru(s)" had fallen down.
Don't forget that he appeared in a very devoted Vaisnava family and worshipped his Deity Radha Gopal jiu from early childhood. He has all the sypmtoms of a Mahabhagavata mentioned in the scripture.
This is why one should have faith in his words and statements.Posted by bb das @ 11/29/2005 06:00 AM PST
Can you show me where the order was given from Gaura Kishora das babaji Maharaja to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura to make disciples?
Why do we accept Srila Prabhupada's telling us of his instruction received by Sarasvati Thakura?
Gour Govinda Maharaja received a written instruction and expressed Srila Prabhupada's repeated instruction for him to make his own men/ disciples.
We accept what the bona fide acarya says due to his impeccable character, activities and potency; as well as how they leave the world.
If you are really sincere and srious to find out if it is true, pray to Krsna, Sri Guru and He will confirm it for you.Posted by vijay @ 11/29/2005 02:52 AM PST
Haribol prabhu can you show me where this order was given please.
"HH Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja was given this direct order to make his own disciples from Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada repeatedly gave this instruction to Gour Govinda Maharaja and wrote it also in a letter to Maharaja. Persons interested should hear about Maharaja’s amazing life and teachings and the way he left his body in Sri Mayapura dham and then you can understand why Srila Prabhupada gave him such an explicit instruction to become regular Guru."Posted by shiva das @ 11/29/2005 01:55 AM PST
Mark you posted this quote:
They shall, of course, still be considered as my disciples, not that they shall become your disciples, but you will be empowered by me to chant their beads and that is the same effect of binding master and disciple as if I were personally chanting. (Letter, January 4, 1973)
The ritviks don't usually use that quote in their arguments because no one questions the purpose of that instruction i.e Srila Prabhupada was too busy to personally decide and preside over all of the new devotees initiations so he tasked his representatives to act for him.
The point of contention between the ritvikvadis and others has been the May 28, 1977 conversation. In that conversation Srila Prabhupada says things that no one disagrees with but they disagree with what the meaning is of what he said.
I'm not going to argue against the ritviks because it's been gone over and over by hundreds of devotees for years and years and most everyone has made up their minds as to what they believe Srila Prabhupada meant to convey.
Then there is the other quote you posted:The executive directors who have herein designated are appointed for life. In the event of the death or failure to act for any reason of any of the said directors, a successor director or directors may be appointed by the remaining directors, provided the new director is my initiated disciple following strictly all the rules and regulations of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness as detailed in my books, and provided that there are never less than three (3) and five (5) executive directors acting at one time.
That quote is irrelevant to the ritvik debate because it wasn't in reference to initiations it was in reference to GBC appointments.
Then there is the other quote you posted:The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative.
That was from Tamal Krishna and it was in reference to initiations during Srila Prabhupadas presence. Nowhere in that letter from Tamal Krishna does he mention that the ritvik priests were supposed to continue on after Srila Prabhupada left the planet.
You also wrote:It will be interesting to see when such a one arises, being a pure devotee receiving dictation from Lord Krishna as Caitya Guru, how they will Initiate within the Divine institution of Iskcon, while reconciling the fact that Srila Prabhupada himself made statements toward the end of his manifest Lila such as...[the above quotes]
I will be even more interested to see how others will treat such a person and if they will be able to reconcile their attitudes and outlooks in light of the instructions of Srila Prabhupada on how to treat such a person.
Then you wrote:I can speculate how it might go down, but won’t.
I can speculate as well, and I will. Who says they have to initiate within ISKCON? The leadership of ISKCON may not recognize such a person or they might. Who says that such a person has to initiate anyone? Maybe he can just give siksa because he won't want the hassle of dealing with the whole disciple thing?From a purport in Madhya lila
The Uttama Adhikari is not meant for preaching work, a maha-bhagavata can descend to the platform of madhyama-bhagavata just to convert others to Vaisnavism.
What then is an Uttama Adhikari "meant for"?
Like we have heard; The Uttama Adhikari is not meant for preaching work, that is meant for Madhyama Adhikaris. Sometimes the Uttama Adhikari comes down to the second class level in order to preach. That doesn't mean that the Uttama Adhikari comes down from some cloud or from some other planet, it means that he is engaged in actual devotional service, his life spent in relationship with Sri Radha Krishna.
Srila Prabhupada, in a lecture of Nov. 12, 1972So you have to uncover. You have to discover. That discovering process is devotional service. The more you are engaged in devotional service, the more your senses become pure or uncovered. And when it is completely uncovered, without any designation, you are capable to serve Krsna. This is apprenticeship. Vaidhi-bhakti is apprenticeship. Real bhakti, para-bhakti, is raganuga-bhakti. This raganuga-bhakti, we have to come after surpassing the vaidhi-bhakti. In the material world, if we do not try to make further and further progress in devotional service, if we are simply sticking to the shastric regulation process and do not try to go beyond that... Shastric process, and also regulation, is required. Without shastric process you cannot go to that platform. But if we stick to the shastric process only and do not try to improve ourself... The shastric process is kanistha-adhikara, lowest stage of devotional service.
Preaching work is secondary. That is meant for Madhyama Adhikaris, although sometimes the Uttama Adhikari will come down from his raga bhakti to also preach. What is raga bhakti?
Srila Prabhupada lecture Bombay, January 12, 1975:But without viddhi-bhakti, you cannot reach to the platform of raga-bhakti, although that is our aim. Raganuga, raga-bhakti is executed following the footprints of the devotees in Vrndavana. That is called raga-bhakti. Krsna’s personal associates. Not to become directly Krsna’s personal associate, but following the footprints of Krsna’s eternal associates, we can come to the stage of raga-bhakti. That is called para-bhakti. That para-bhakti is required.
That doesn't mean you won't become a personal associate of Krishna, it means you aren't supposed to try and just jump to that. You are supposed to follow in the footsteps of Sri Radha Krishna's personal associates and then you will automatically become a direct associate of Sri Radha Krishna. That is assured in Srila Sanatana Goswami's Brhad Bhagavatamrtam in the story of Gopa Kumar and also from Srila Jiva Gosvami in his Priti-sandarbha 10.12:In the spiritual world, the Supreme Lord has unlimited spiritual forms, all are expansions of Himself illuminating that world. With each one of those forms, the Lord enjoys pastimes with a single individual liberated jiva.
From the purport to Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 8.221In all, there are sixty-four items listed for the rendering of service unto Krsna, and these are the regulative principles enjoined in the sastras and given by the spiritual master. One has to serve Krsna according to these regulative principles, but if one develops spontaneous love for Krsna as exhibited in the activities of those who live in Vrajabhumi, one attains the platform of raganuga-bhakti. One who has developed this spontaneous love is eligible for elevation to the platform enjoyed by the inhabitants of Vrajabhumi. In Vrajabhumi, there are no regulative principles set forth for Krsna’s service. Rather, everything is carried out in spontaneous, natural love for Krsna. There is no question of following the principles of the Vedic system. Such principles are followed within this material world, and as long as one is on the material platform, he has to execute them. However, spontaneous love of Krsna is transcendental. It may seem that the regulative principles are being violated, but the devotee is on the transcendental platform. Such service is called gunatita, or nirguna, for it is not contaminated by the three modes of material nature.
So my point is that real devotional service is done when you have been elevated to your eternal relationship with Sri Radha Krishna. A devotee who has risen to that level may not be overly involved with preaching, or he may not be involved in preaching at all, or he can be like Srila Prabhupada and be fully involved in preaching. It is all up to the desire of Sri Krishna in what he wants that devotee to do.Posted by BB das @ 11/29/2005 12:00 AM PST
Dear Prabhus,
All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
You cannot become a spiritual master all of a sudden. THERE MUST BE ORDER FROM A SUPERIOR PERSON. SUPERIOR TO YOU. IF HE SAYS, “NOW YOU CAN MAKE DISCIPLES,” THEN YOU CAN DO THAT. This is the educational process. THAT MEANS, WHEN ONE HAS RECEIVED ORDER FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, HE CAN BE [SPIRITUAL MASTER.]
(SP 1.2.18 Lecture)
He is self-made guru. Therefore he’s not guru. Self-made guru cannot be guru. HE MUST BE AUTHORIZED BY THE BONA FIDE GURU. THEN HE’S GURU. BONA FIDE GURU MEANS HE MUST BE AUTHORIZED BY THE SUPERIOR GURU…. HE MUST RECEIVE THE ORDER FROM THE SUPERIOR. AND THE SUPERIOR MUST BE BONA FIDE. THEN HE’S BONA FIDE, NOT SELF-MADE.
(NOD Lectures Vrndavan, India 10/31/72)
HH Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja was given this direct order to make his own disciples from Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada repeatedly gave this instruction to Gour Govinda Maharaja and wrote it also in a letter to Maharaja. Persons interested should hear about Maharaja’s amazing life and teachings and the way he left his body in Sri Mayapura dham and then you can understand why Srila Prabhupada gave him such an explicit instruction to become regular Guru.
Srila Prabhupada will always make available a bona fide Sri Guru(s) in Iskcon. Who has real faith in Srila Prabhupada and the adhikara to recognize is the question; one who doubts this, doubts Srila Prabhupada and the parampara. Everything else mentioned is simply mental concoction.
If one is simple hearted and sincere, he can understand. Krsna reveals bona fide sad Guru to one who is crying in the heart for Sri Guru. Iskcon is Mahaprabhu's movement and He will always make this arrangement for one who is serious and sincere and who has unflinching faith in Srila Prabhupada.
Your servant,
BB dasPosted by Mark @ 11/28/2005 09:03 PM PST
Please accept my obeisances. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!
After taking great interest in this conversation and taking it to heart, I would like to offer my realization regarding what I see to be Srila Prabhupada’s instructions regarding initiation within His vision of Iskcon. I hope it adds value to your considerations.
A person who performs an initiation ceremony for another is participating to some degree in the unfolding of the process of diksa for the one initiated.
Depending on that initiator’s adhikari, they may also have the potential to give ongoing siksa instruction in a way that facilitates perfection in the initiate. This would be the case if the initiator is factually on the platform of uttama-adhikari.
Of course a kanistha or mudhyama adhikari devotee can for a limited time period become a transparent conduit in the transmission of the early stages of divya-jnana, by imparting the maha-mantra, and some other beginning knowledge associated with the initiation ceremony, and thus give diksa intititation.
It has already been established that a mudhyama or kanistha adhikari may accept the role of Guru, but only for those near and below their own level of advancement, and that the disciple in that case will not be able to advance under that wing further than the level of the mother bird. Thus Srila Prabhupada’s admonition “best not to accept any disciples”, and "The guru must be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru must be accepted from the topmost class." (C.c. Madhya, 24.330, purport).
It seems to me that Srila Prabhupada had determined in July of 1977, regarding the disciples/members of Iskcon, that none were of the status of uttama-adhikari, and thus ordered a select number to initiate on his behalf, as ritvik representatives of the acharya.
They were to perform, to the degree they were pure and transparent, the service of imparting some divya-jnana to a new disciple of Srila Prabhupada’s, as Srila Prabhupada was the only one at the time whose Siksa abilities were complete enough to bring the new disciple all the way home.
This in no way precluded the potential for any one of his disciples from advancing to the stage of uttama adhikari through sadhana and raganuga bhakti practice. Of course at that point, such a one would be naturally empowered to give Diksa to an aspirant, along with the necessary Siksa to help complete the transmission of the transcendental knowledge begun at the first stage of Diksa. That aspirant would in all ways be a disciple of such a mahabhagavat.
It will be interesting to see when such a one arises, being a pure devotee receiving dictation from Lord Krishna as Caitya Guru, how they will Initiate within the Divine institution of Iskcon, while reconciling the fact that Srila Prabhupada himself made statements toward the end of his manifest Lila such as,
"They shall, of course, still be considered as my disciples, not that they shall become your disciples, but you will be empowered by me to chant their beads and that is the same effect of binding master and disciple as if I were personally chanting." (Letter, January 4, 1973)
"The executive directors who have herein designated are appointed for life. In the event of the death or failure to act for any reason of any of the said directors, a successor director or directors may be appointed by the remaining directors, provided the new director is my initiated disciple following strictly all the rules and regulations of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness as detailed in my books, and provided that there are never less than three (3) and five (5) executive directors acting at one time." (last will- June 6, 1977)
[The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative.] (Letter to all Temples, July 9th 1977).
I can speculate how it might go down, but won’t.
Hare Krishna
your servant,
MarkPosted by shiva das @ 11/28/2005 04:26 PM PST
Praghosa I don't think there is any value in attempting to sum up a discussion where there were various topics touched upon. What is the use of such a summary?
I would like you to tell us more about your ideas about diksa gurus in ISKCON. You wrote:Ritvik is a word that desribes in the simplest of terms, the consciousness of the men who are initiating on behalf of Srila Prabhupada and the Parampara. That is all. Their position is first and foremost - an official and authorized POST. This is factual. I am simply describing reality. Were they anything other than this - they could not be "managed" by the Governing Body Commission - but they are - and this "management" demonstrates that their position is first and foremost - official; as it indded needs to be in order for the Institution to function correctly...
Within his ISKCON mission - the positon of initiating guru will always be FIRST - an OFFICIAL POST and ONLY those who, apart from personifying the qualities of the uttama adhikari as they are given Srila Prabhupada in the Upadesamrta, understand and support this should ever be acknowledged as fully qualified to assume this important post...
It is simple. The simple and easily discernable qulalities of the uttama adhikari are given by Srila Prabhupada. Such men are posted by the GBC to accept the recommendations of the "LOCAL" leadership as to those men who have demonstrated faithful and enthusiastic adherence to the simple process of "puruscharya vidhi". There is no need for them to go on a futile search for "THEIR" guru! They are secure in knowing that whoever is "authorized" by the Governing Body to initiate on behalf of Srila Prabhpuada meets the minimum qualifications to do so, is loyal to His Divine Grace and clearly acts as the representative of Srila Prabhupada - performing this simple function ON BEHALF OF SRILA PRABHUPADA.
Can you tell us in what way if any your ideas differ from the philosophy taught by the ritvikvadis?
They also say that the diksa gurus in ISKCON are supposed to be priestly posts initiating on behalf of Srila Prabhupada, and that the devotees who are initiated by those priests will be Srila Prabhupada's diksa disciples. They condemn any other form of diksa in ISKCON as being a deviation from what Srila Prabhupada wanted. They do not want any devotee in ISKCON to be accepted as a bona fide spiritual master for as long as ISKCON continues to exist. They do not accept that if a devotee is in fact a qualified spiritual master in his own right that he should be accepted as such within ISKCON and be allowed to take on disciples.
Do you differ from them?Posted by praghosa das @ 11/28/2005 03:45 PM PST
Hey Shiva prabhu,
My bad. I was just digging at the attempt to turn the discussion of issues to "character assisination" that seem to be the speed of this thread. I did understand your meaning that I "misrepresent" the issue. But this is not the case. Rocan appears to delight in attacking me personally as oppsed to addressing my two basic points. Just funnin a little. What I really wish to do is get to the actual heart of the issue.
So please consider my question.
It is this.
I asked you to sum up - and it shouldn't be that difficult - the the principal issue - over which they disagree.
Then I asked you where you positioned yourself in the dispute?
Could you do that. That is a very clear question. It deserves an answer since this is the meat of the matter.Posted by shiva das @ 11/28/2005 12:35 PM PST
Praghosa I wrote:
"You consistently mischaracterize and mistate what people have written and then you argue against your mischaracterization"
And then you responded:
"Your response is "Sorry Praghosa - that cannot be accomplished. It is far too complex since it touched upon so many topics. And I don't think you should ask such a question. It lends itself to your tendency to "mischaracterize" other people.
The way I see it - I have never once made anyone's character an issue when addressing a point. I would like you to show me where I have done this. Rocan prabhu seems to relish this sort of diversion. ("Now that Praghosa has made this point - Let me tell WHY he would do this, exactly what he must be feeling and thinking about himself no less - being an obvious "fat headed legend" no less yada yada yada yada" It's endless."
Do ya see where you mischaracterized what I wrote and then argued against the mischaracterization? If your reply was an attempt at humor I would agree that it is funny the way you mistook the word characterize and character, but I don't think you were attempting to be funny, you simply don't give much thought to what people write and then respond. That leads to the above types of responses from you.Posted by praghosa das @ 11/28/2005 08:04 AM PST
Rocana
Forgot. You wrote "Praghosa avoids speaking directly to my comments, which means he doesn’t disagree. He knows in his heart what I say to be true. Instead, he resorts to sending up a smokescreen of incoherent, meaningless, repetitive verbiage in order to mask his own capitulation to his institutional Siksa gurus.
Can you offer me an example where I "avoided" addressing one of your comments. Your not accepting my answers or calling them "a smokescreen of incoherent, meaningless, repetitive verbiage" does not automatically make them such. It could mean that you simply do not agree with them or quite frankly don't understand "simple" English.
Give me a concrete example of this and I will correct this oversight immediately. If you cannot offer such an example then this is simply horse manure.
I have never backed away from a challenge. So bring it on friend. Show me where I have avoided you or your comments.Posted by praghosa das @ 11/28/2005 07:29 AM PST
Hello Shiva das,
Thanks for your comments.
I asked you to clarify exactly what the essence of the dispute was between Rocan Prabhu and Danavir.
You responded "Danavir and Rocana were writing on various topics so it is misleading to sum up their writings and views in such a simplistic manner. You have this tendency to mischaracterize what other people write and then comment on that."
Essentially I asked for a simple (damn it Sorry Rocan prabhu..I just cannot shake that word out of my vocabulary!) summary of the essential rift.
Your response is "Sorry Praghosa - that cannot be accomplished. It is far too complex since it touched upon so many topics. And I don't think you should ask such a question. It lends itself to your tendency to "mischaracterize" other people.
The way I see it - I have never once made anyone's character an issue when addressing a point. I would like you to show me where I have done this. Rocan prabhu seems to relish this sort of diversion. ("Now that Praghosa has made this point - Let me tell WHY he would do this, exactly what he must be feeling and thinking about himself no less - being an obvious "fat headed legend" no less yada yada yada yada" It's endless.
I did not ask you anything about Rocan. Nothing about Danavir. I could care less about their character.
I asked you to sum up - and it shouldn't be that difficult - the the principal issue - over which they disagree.
Then I asked you where you positioned yourself in the dispute?
Your letter basically says "Praghosa I don't really know what the issue was about - or - I don't want to tell you what I perceived it to be about.
Good On'Ya!Posted by bbdas @ 11/28/2005 03:27 AM PST
Let us become real brahmins and start looking for the TRUTH in other's statements and then we can begin to have a mature and healthy dialogue. Just a thought!
Posted by Rocana dasa @ 11/27/2005 06:20 PM PST
There is a constant theme running throughout Praghosa dasa's blog contributions. Whether in this blog thread or in others, he constrantly chants the mantra that everything is "simple": we should simply surrender to Srila Prabhupada's simple program. It sounds so simple, but in reality if it was that simple, there wouldn't be any disagreement. We wouldn't be here – we'd be totally absorbed in Krsna Consciousness, which is simply not the case.
Ultimately, the highest truth is simple. In our siddhanta, the “simple” Gopi Damsels of Vrindavin Dhama personify the highest truth of Pure Love of God, Lord Sri Krsna.
We are told to simply:Always remember Krsna, never forget Krsna.
Chant Hare Krsna and be happy.
Surrender to Krsna
Offer everything to Krsna
All the above and many more simple devotional activities ultimately bring us to the level of Pure Love of God. As Srila Prabhupada said during a lecture on Aug 11, 1975:
"The conclusion should be, the body and the soul, they are different. It is very simple truth, but because we have accumulated so much garbage dirty things within our heart, we cannot understand even this simple thing."
Pragosha prabhu doesn’t seem to acknowledge that we all require purification in order to get to unalloyed simplicity. Ignoring the complexity of material entanglement isn’t genuine simplicity.
Following the Science of Self Realization as presented by the Sampradaya Acarya, representing the Six Gosvamis, brings us gradually out of material existence to the Simplicity of pure Krsna Consciousness.
Srila Prabhupada, in discussion with Syamasundara, explained the following:Syamasundara: On the one hand, everything is simple, made up of simple parts. On the other hand, nothing is simple; everything is complex.
Prabhupada: Yes. The simple is, we say, the whole world is made of material energy. This is simple. Now, the component parts of material energy, there are so many things—mahat-tattva, then pradhäna, then puruña, then twenty-four elements, the five gross elements, eight subtle elements, the five senses, the objects of the senses—and in this way there are so many analytical complications.
In a lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 6:1, Dec 21, 1970, Srila Prabhupada said:"This roguism has to be purged. Then talk of spiritualism. At heart, dirty things are so much hugely accumulated by millions of years’ contamination of this material world. It is very difficult to get out of this roguism. And to become a Vaisnava, he has to become a brahmana. And brahmana means... One of the qualifications, brahmana, is, sad-laksa , arjava, simplicity. The rogues cannot be simple. Always intriguing, making plan, plotting—these are roguisms. But a Vaisnava requires very simple life. Satya-sama-dama-titiksa-ärjava. Ärjavam means simplicity. He is very forward, without any covering."
As I see it, we are simply speaking out against the “rogue-ism” that has crept into and contaminating Srila Prabhupada's movement. For this straightforwardness, we are now depicted as the enemy by Praghosa, Danavir Goswami and others. I bring up irrefutable ISKCON history such as the Zonal Acarya policy, and I am accused of denigrating the revered devotees/diksa gurus who established, participated, promoted, protected and through intrigue, plan making, and plotting insured that it continued to this very day. Pragosha dasa is their defender, and accuses us of not being "simply" and following Srila Prabhupada’s perfect plan."Arjava means simplicity. A brahmana is not supposed to be crooked and duplicity. No. Simple. It is said even the enemy wants to know something from him, he will clearly say, “It is this.” That is called simplicity."
Praghosa’s applied understanding of simplicity is apparently to simply ignore all the “rogue-ism” and go out and distribute Srila Prabhupada's books. With all the blog commentary he makes, Praghosa chastises simple aspiring Brahmins for confronting the enemy within our Spiritual Master’s movement. Naturally, these powerful leaders don’t want to hear our truth telling. We are simply describing to what extent they have acted in a crooked and duplicitous manner over many decades. Praghosa avoids speaking directly to my comments, which means he doesn’t disagree. He knows in his heart what I say to be true. Instead, he resorts to sending up a smokescreen of incoherent, meaningless, repetitive verbiage in order to mask his own capitulation to his institutional Siksa gurus.
In my previous post, I spared him the embarrassment of revealing the time and place of our last meeting. At the time, he was one of the regal princes of the Sun God, Lord Bhagavan, the Zonal Acarya of Western Europe in the early eighties. As Bhagavan’s ambassador, Praghosa was bequeathed Portugal. Since he implored me to be more personal, I’ll invite him share the rest of his story.
The bottom line is that he still appears to be an apologist and supporter of the elite within ISKCON, just as he was during the Zonal Acarya days. He tries convincing us that his famous friends are simple, sincere followers of Srila Prabhupada, which makes us independent complainers “simply” un-surrendered to the empowered institutional authorities. He appears to have rationalized that Srila Prabhupada wants us to “cooperate” with the GBC. It’s as simple as that! At least, I think that's what he's driving at. It's hard to discern exactly what his position is. As Shiva dasa noted, some of his comments sound like he's a Rtvik, promoting the July 9th letter.
I hope that in the future, Praghosa will simply be more straightforward and philosophical when expressing his feelings, rather than giving us the spontaneous, shoot from the lip mind dumps we have had to endure up to now. If his genuine goal is to truly communicate, then I suggest he restrain himself from emotionally blurting out half-baked “realizations”, and instead take the required time to compose his ideas in well-written, edited, position statements rather than endless, repetitive, rambling blog rants..
Most of Praghosa's posts are punctuated by capitalized shouts accompanied by commonly accepted and understood Vaisnava truisms. Much of his absolutist pontification obviously originates from a confused conditioned consciousness.Posted by shiva das @ 11/27/2005 05:02 PM PST
Praghosa I was commenting on your posts. My point was directed at what you wrote. My point was that for all of your talk essentially you could have just said "I advocate ritvikism". That would have been much faster and less work for you since everyone here understands what the ritvik philosophy is.
You wrote:The article to which all these comments are directed orginated with the "debate" between Rocan and Danavir Maharaja.
Their differences are themselves not too clear.
To me it appears that the real argument between them is this.
Danavir Maharaja claims that there are pure devotees within ISKCON, capable of properly guiding "their disciples" and all new candidates for pure devotional service shouldsearch amongst them and determine WHO is "Their Sat Guru" - their "confirmable" Mahabhagavat Uttama Adhikari Guru.
Rocan Prabhus appears to be saying "Don't bother looking amongst these men. They are all at best neophytes or at worst - scoundrels and cheaters of one form or another. So he advises that all candidates should take "shelter" of Srila Prabhupada through his books and the Holy Name and pray that in time - "Their" Sat Guru - Mr Mahabhagavat Uttama the 3rd will wonderfully appear from "UPPER SOMEWHERIA - and THEN he should take shelter of THAT " living manifestation" of Sri Guru Tattwa.
Now if I don't have it correct - kindly explain where I have misunderstood the debate.
Danavir and Rocana were writing on various topics so it is misleading to sum up their writings and views in such a simplistic manner. You have this tendency to mischaracterize what other people write and then comment on that.
Your comments are much easier to sum up because they are in fact only leading to one point i.e ritvikism.
You asked:THEN - tell me if it is possible - EXACTLY which position you support.
I have already in previous threads. To sum up I believe that Srila Prabhupada wanted the parampara to continue on in the way that he wrote and spoke about on numerous occasions. He said he wanted his disciples to become spiritual masters, to rise to the highest level and then continue on as gurus.
I reject ritvikism because it is nowhere mentioned in Srila Prabhupadas writings or lectures as something that is to continue on after the spiritual master leaves his body. It is nowhere mentioned anywhere in our tradition.
So I do not believe that Srila Prabhupada wanted to start something new where all vaisnavas who give harinam diksa initiation in ISKCON after he left his body should be seen as nothing more then organizational positions whose jobs are to give out names and beads rather then transcendentally empowered spiritual masters in their own right.
Those devotees who do give harinam diksa and act as spiritual masters in the traditional paradigm should be open and honest to prospective disciples about their own level of spiritual attainment. They should tell prospective disciples if they are not on the highest level of being directly in communication with the Lord. That way the prospective disciple will be able to decide if he wants to follow the traditional methodology of surrendering fully to such a guru.
Of course their will be the potential problem of whether or not diksa gurus will be honest and forthcoming about their actual spiritual level. But that is always the case throughout history.
Why do people accept Srila Prabhupada or Srila Narayana Maharaja or any other current or past vaisnava who takes on disciples as being devotees on the highest level? From Krishna you get guru. Krishna will guide you to where you are supposed to be and to the person you are meant to see as a guru.
This guidance will come in many forms. It can come through sastra, through other vaisnavas, and through inspiration from within.
If people have no faith in anyone who is giving harinam diksa then there is no harm in not taking harinam diksa. The real initiation is initiation into transcendental knowledge. If a person is initiated into the knowledge of our parampara then that is sufficient for that person to progress on the path of bhakti. It is defintely more beneficial for that person to have the direct association and personal instruction of a spiritual master, but is not in fact of absolute necessity. Just like we see with Srila Prabhupada's relationships with most of his disciples or Srila Prabhupada's relationship with his own guru. In both cases there was little time for there to be much association if any at all. But it is always better if there is more rather then less direct personal association because the spiritual master can give direct relevant instruction to the disciple personally and check to see if the disciple understands what it is he is learning.Posted by praghosa das @ 11/27/2005 03:54 PM PST
Hello Shiva prabhu,
What is your real point prabhu?
The article to which all these comments are directed orginated with the "debate" between Rocan and Danavir Maharaja.
Their differences are themselves not too clear.
To me it appears that the real argument between them is this.
Danavir Maharaja claims that there are pure devotees within ISKCON, capable of properly guiding "their disciples" and all new candidates for pure devotional service should
search amongst them and determine WHO is "Their Sat Guru" - their "confirmable" Mahabhagavat Uttama Adhikari Guru.
Rocan Prabhus appears to be saying "Don't bother looking amongst these men. They are all at best neophytes or at worst - scoundrels and cheaters of one form or another. So he advises that all candidates should take "shelter" of Srila Prabhupada through his books and the Holy Name and pray that in time - "Their" Sat Guru - Mr Mahabhagavat Uttama the 3rd will wonderfully appear from "UPPER SOMEWHERIA - and THEN he should take shelter of THAT " living manifestation" of Sri Guru Tattwa.
Now if I don't have it correct - kindly explain where I have misunderstood the debate.
THEN - tell me if it is possible - EXACTLY which position you support.
This way we can get to the finish line on this.
Respectfully Praghosa DasPosted by shiva das @ 11/27/2005 03:32 PM PST
Praghosa your entire commentary boils down to advocating ritvikism. This is what you said:
Within his ISKCON mission - the positon of initiating guru will always be FIRST - an OFFICIAL POST and ONLY those who, apart from personifying the qualities of the uttama adhikari as they are given Srila Prabhupada in the Upadesamrta, understand and support this should ever be acknowledged as fully qualified to assume this important post.
That is ritvikism in a nutshell. It's ironic that you mention the Upadesamrta and Uttama adhikari. This is what Srila Prabhupada said there:When a person realizes himself to be an eternal servitor of Krsna, he loses interest in everything but Krsna's service. Always thinking of Krsna, devising means by which to spread the holy name of Krsna, he understands that his only business is in spreading the Krsna consciousness movement all over the world. Such a person is to be recognized as an uttama-adhikari, and his association should be immediately accepted according to the six processes (dadati pratigrhnati, etc.). Indeed, the advanced uttama-adhikari Vaisnava devotee should be accepted as a spiritual master. Everything one possesses should be offered to him, for it is enjoined that one should deliver whatever he has to the spiritual master. The brahmacari in particular is supposed to beg alms from others and offer them to the spiritual master. However, one should not imitate the behavior of an advanced devotee or maha-bhagavata without being self-realized, for by such imitation one will eventually become degraded.
So here we find the contradiction to your use of this purport in the Upadesamrta. First Srila Prabhupada says that an Uttama adhikari is "self realized" a devotee on "the highest platform". And then he says that such a person should be utterly surrendered to. Here is more from a Madhya lila purport:sastra-yuktye sunipuna, drdha-sraddha yanra
'uttama-adhikari' se taraye samsara
"One who is expert in the Vedic literature and has full faith in the Supreme Lord is an uttama-adhikari, a first-class Vaisnava, a topmost Vaisnava who can deliver the whole world and turn everyone to Krsna consciousness." (Cc. Madhya 22.65) With great love and affection, the maha-bhagavata observes the Supreme Personality of Godhead, devotional service and the devotee. He observes nothing beyond Krsna, Krsna consciousness and Krsna's devotees. The maha-bhagavata knows that everyone is engaged in the Lord's service in different ways. He therefore descends to the middle platform to elevate everyone to the Krsna conscious position.
Here he says the Uttama adhikari can deliver the whole world. Also in various places Srila Prabhupada says this from Madhya 16.74:Although preaching is not meant for a maha-bhagavata, a maha-bhagavata can descend to the platform of madhyama-bhagavata just to convert others to Vaishnavism.
We can see that these terms Uttama adhikari and Maha-Bhagavata are reserved for devotees on the highest level of bhakti. Although in many places Srila Prabhupada describes them like this:Out of many such Vaisnavas, one may be found to be very seriously engaged in the service of the Lord and strictly following all the regulative principles, chanting the prescribed number of rounds on japa beads and always thinking of how to expand the Krsna consciousness movement. Such a Vaisnava should be accepted as an uttama-adhikari, a highly advanced devotee, and his association should always be sought.
Or thisThe maha-bhagavata is one who decorates his body with tilaka and whose name indicates him to be a servant of Krsna by the word dasa. He is also initiated by a bona fide spiritual master and is expert in worshiping the Deity, chanting mantras correctly, performing sacrifices, offering prayers to the Lord and performing sankirtana. He knows how to serve the Supreme Personality of Godhead and how to respect a Vaisnava.
By those standards alone of the qualities of a Maha-Bhagvata or Uttama adhikari we could point out many many vaisnavas who can be seen in that way and therefore should be accepted as spiritual masters of the whole world and worthy of being utterly surrendered to.
Sometimes Srila Prabhupada describes some of the qualities of the Uttama adhikari Maha-Bhagavata devotee in a purport but we shouldn't think that those qualities alone are what we can use to recognize the devotee on the highest platform.
Usually the devotee on the highest platform is described in furthur detail like the following.Madhya 8.273
maha-bhagavata dekhe sthavara-jangama
tahan tahan haya tanra sri-krishna-sphurana
A devotee advanced on the spiritual platform sees everything movable and inert as the Supreme Lord. For him, everything he sees here and there is but a manifestation of Lord Krishna.
Madhya 17.31
prabhu jala-kritya kare, age hasti aila
'krishna kaha' bali' prabhu jala pheli' marila
While the Lord was bathing and murmuring the Gayatri mantra, the elephants came before Him. The Lord immediately splashed some water on the elephants and asked them to chant the name of Krishna.
PURPORT
Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was the Supreme Personality of Godhead playing the part of a very great, advanced devotee. On the maha-bhagavata platform, the devotee makes no distinction between friends and enemies. On that platform he sees everyone as a servant of Krishna. As stated in the Bhagavad-gita (5.18):
vidya-vinaya-sampanne brahmane gavi hastini
suni caiva sva-pake ca panditah sama-darsinah
"The humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with equal vision a learned and gentle brahmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog, and a dog-eater [outcaste]."
A maha-bhagavata, being learned and advanced in spiritual consciousness, sees no difference between a tiger, an elephant or a learned scholar. The test of advanced spiritual consciousness is that one becomes fearless. He envies no one, and he is always engaged in the Lord's service. He sees every living entity as an eternal part and parcel of the Lord, rendering service according to his capacity by the will of the Supreme Lord. As Krishna confirms in the Bhagavad-gita (15.15):
sarvasya caham hridi sannivishto
mattah smritir jnanam apohanam ca
"I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness."
The maha-bhagavata knows that Krishna is in everyone's heart. Krishna is dictating, and the living entity is following His dictations. Krishna is within the heart of the tiger, elephant and boar. Therefore Krishna tells them, "Here is a maha-bhagavata. Please do not disturb him." Why, then, should the animals be envious of such a great personality? Those who are neophytes or even a little progressed in devotional service should not try to imitate the maha-bhagavata. Rather, they should only follow in his footsteps. The word anukara means "imitating," and anusara means "trying to follow in the footsteps." We should not try to imitate the activities of a maha-bhagavata or Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Our best efforts should be exerted in trying to follow them according to our ability. The maha-bhagavata's heart is completely freed from material contamination, and he can become very dear even to fierce animals like tigers and elephants. Indeed, the maha-bhagavata treats them as his very intimate friends. On this platform there is no question of envy. When the Lord was passing through the forest, He was in ecstasy, thinking the forest to be Vrindavana. He was simply searching for Krishna.
Madhya 8.274
sthavara-jangama dekhe, na dekhe tara murti
sarvatra haya nija ishta-deva-sphurti
The maha-bhagavata, the advanced devotee, certainly sees everything mobile and immobile, but he does not exactly see their forms. Rather, everywhere he immediately sees manifest the form of the Supreme Lord.
PURPORT
Due to his deep ecstatic love for Krishna, the maha-bhagavata sees Krishna everywhere and nothing else. This is confirmed in the Brahma-samhita (5.38): premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santah sadaiva hridayeshu vilokayanti.
Srimad Bhagavatam 7.4.37 purport
Prahlada Maharaja is the vivid example of a great person fully absorbed in Krsna consciousness. In Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya 8.274) it is said:
sthavara-jangama dekhe, na dekhe tara murti
sarvatra haya nija ista-deva-sphurti
A fully Krsna conscious person, although situated in this material world, does not see anything but Krsna, anywhere and everywhere. This is the sign of a maha-bhagavata. The maha-bhagavata sees Krsna everywhere because of his attitude of pure love for Krsna. As confirmed in the Brahma-samhita (5.38):
premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena
santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti
yam syamasundaram acintya-guna-svarupam
govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
"I worship the primeval Lord, Govinda, who is always seen by the devotee whose eyes are anointed with the pulp of love. He is seen in His eternal form of Syamasundara, situated within the heart of the devotee." An exalted devotee, or mahatma, who is rarely to be seen, remains fully conscious of Krsna and constantly sees the Lord within the core of his heart. It is sometimes said that when one is influenced by evil stars like Saturn, Rahu or Ketu, he cannot make advancement in any prospective activity. In just the opposite way, Prahlada Maharaja was influenced by Krsna, the supreme planet, and thus he could not think of the material world and live without Krsna consciousness. That is the sign of a maha-bhagavata. Even if one is an enemy of Krsna, a maha-bhagavata sees him to be also engaged in Krsna's service. Another crude example is that everything appears yellow to the jaundiced eye. Similarly, to a maha-bhagavata, everyone but himself appears to be engaged in Krsna's service.
Srimad Bhagavatam 4.12.11 purport
Ordinary persons cannot understand how the Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, but a devotee can actually see Him. Not only can the devotee see Him outwardly, but he can see, with spiritual vision, that everything is resting in the Supreme Personality of Godhead, as described in Bhagavad-gita (mat-sthani sarva-bhutani). That is the vision of a maha-bhagavata. He sees everything others see, but instead of seeing merely the trees, the mountains, the cities or the sky, he sees only his worshipable Supreme Personality of Godhead in everything because everything is resting in Him only. This is the vision of the maha-bhagavata. In summary, a maha-bhagavata, a highly elevated pure devotee, sees the Lord everywhere, as well as within the heart of everyone. This is possible for devotees who have developed elevated devotional service to the Lord. As stated in the Brahma-samhita (5.38), premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena: only those who have smeared their eyes with the ointment of love of Godhead can see everywhere the Supreme Lord face to face; it is not possible by imagination or so-called meditation.
Srimad Bhagavatam 4.13.7 purport
The symptoms and characteristics of Utkala, the son of Maharaja Dhruva, are those of a maha-bhagavata. As stated in the Bhagavad-gita (6.30), yo mam pasyati sarvatra sarvam ca mayi pasyati: a highly advanced devotee sees the Supreme Personality of Godhead everywhere, and he also sees everything resting in the Supreme. It is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita (9.4), maya tatam idam sarvam jagad avyakta-murtina: Lord Krsna is spread all over the universe in His impersonal feature. Everything is resting on Him, but that does not mean that everything is He Himself. A highly advanced maha-bhagavata devotee sees in this spirit: he sees the same Supersoul, Paramatma, existing within everyone's heart, regardless of discrimination based on the different material forms of the living entities. He sees everyone as part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The maha-bhagavata, who experiences the Supreme Godhead's presence everywhere, is never missing from the sight of the Supreme Lord, nor is the Supreme Lord ever lost from his sight. This is possible only when one is advanced in love of Godhead.
Those are furthur qualities of the highest level devotee. But there is more and it is related to the above words.Purport S.B. 4.28.52
Consultation with the Supersoul seated within everyone's heart is possible only when one is completely free from the contamination of material attachment. One who is sincere and pure gets an opportunity to consult with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His Paramātmā feature sitting within everyone's heart. The Paramātmā is always the caitya-guru, the spiritual master within, and He comes before one externally as the instructor and initiator spiritual master. The Lord can reside within the heart, and He can also come out before a person and give him instructions. Thus the spiritual master is not different from the Supersoul sitting within the heart.
From S.B. 4.28.41
In this way King Malayadhvaja attained perfect knowledge because in his pure state he was directly instructed by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. By means of such enlightening transcendental knowledge, he could understand everything from all angles of vision.
PURPORT
In this verse the words sākṣād bhagavatoktena guruṇā hariṇā are very significant. The Supreme Personality of Godhead speaks directly to the individual soul when the devotee has completely purified himself by rendering devotional service to the Lord. Lord Kṛṣṇa confirms this also in Bhagavad-gītā (10.10):
teṣāḿ satata-yuktānāḿbhajatāḿ prīti-pūrvakamdadāmi buddhi-yogaḿ taḿyena mām upayānti te
"To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me."
The Lord is the Supersoul seated in everyone's heart, and He acts as the caitya-guru, the spiritual master within. However, He gives direct instructions only to the advanced, pure devotees. In the beginning, when a devotee is serious and sincere, the Lord gives him directions from within to approach a bona fide spiritual master. When one is trained by the spiritual master according to the regulative principles of devotional service and is situated on the platform of spontaneous attachment for the Lord (rāga-bhakti), the Lord also gives instructions from within. Teṣāḿ satata-yuktānāḿ bhajatāḿ prīti-pūrvakam [Bg. 10.10]. This distinct advantage is obtained by a liberated soul. Having attained this stage, King Malayadhvaja was directly in touch with the Supreme Lord and was receiving instructions from Him directly.
From S.B. 3.5.4 purport
Only in such a purified stage does the Lord, who is seated in everyone's heart with the individual soul, give instruction so that the devotee can reach the ultimate destination of going back home, back to Godhead. This is confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā (10.10): teṣāḿ satata-yuktānāḿ bhajatām. Only when the Lord is satisfied with the devotional service of the devotee does He impart knowledge, as He did for Arjuna and Uddhava.
The jñānīs, yogīs and karmīs cannot expect this direct cooperation of the Lord. They are not able to satisfy the Lord by transcendental loving service, nor do they believe in such service to the Lord. The bhakti process, as performed under the regulative principles of vaidhī-bhakti, or devotional service following the prescribed rules and regulations, is defined by the revealed scriptures and confirmed by great ācāryas. This practice can help the neophyte devotee to rise to the stage of rāga-bhakti, in which the Lord responds from within as the caitya-guru, or the spiritual master as Superconsciousness.
From S.B. 4.29.50 purport
Everything is being directed by the Supersoul within the body; therefore the better part of valor is to take His direction and be happy. To take His directions, one needs to be a devotee, and this is also confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā (10.10):
teṣāḿ satata-yuktānāḿbhajatāḿ prīti-pūrvakamdadāmi buddhi-yogaḿ taḿyena mām upayānti te
"To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me."
Although the Supersoul is in everyone's heart (īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāḿ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]), He talks only to the pure devotees who constantly engage in His service
These are the full qualifications of the devotee on the Uttama adhikari Maha-Bhagavata level of bhakti.
From Upadesamrta verse 5 purportIn this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kanishtha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and uttama-adhikari. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikari Vaishnava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaishnavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaishnava or a Vaishnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.
So Praghosa contrary to your contention that it is not necessary to search for a Guru and that one should just accept the local so called Uttama adhikari who has is fulfilling the post of diksa guru in Iskcon, in the above Sri Rupa goswami advises the opposite.Posted by Ananda Svarupa dasa (ACBSP) @ 11/27/2005 11:43 AM PST
Dear Nitya Siddha Prabhu,
I agree wholeheartedly with your comments regarding the many shortcomings of Pragosh’s responses which indeed, like the responses from the Iskcon leadership to decades of transgressions, immorality, politics, greed, and just plain lies, leave one’s heart (certainly mine) deeply dissatisfied.
I also commend you on the refreshing brevity of your reply. Sometimes, reading the reams of words from some commentators, I am reminded of “Thou dost protest too much...”
Dandavats,
Ananda Svarupa dasaPosted by Nitya Siddha dasa @ 11/27/2005 02:48 AM PST
I agree with Shiva dasa and also find some of Pragosha's responses to these articles condascending and arrogant,as if he thinks he is the only person that has understood Prabhupada's mission and needs to preach that on this site.I think we can safely say that most of us are at least as intelligent if not more intelligent than Pragosha thinks he is.Most devotees that have read Prabhupada's books have a reasonable grasp of the philosophy and do not need to be preached at by Pragosha and others like him repeating the same things that we have read and already understood.Although Pragosha has often stated that many of these philosophical issues are not debateable,many of the discussions taking place here are not just about philosophical issues on thier own,but also about moral issues and are therefore debateable.If ISKCON was run by pure devotees that had never fallen down Pragosha's arguments would perhaps be acceptable.But we all know that is not reality and we cannot therefore erase decades of immorality and transgressions amongst ISKCON'S elite by dismissing them without adressing the moral issues as Pragosha attempts to do.His posistion does not satisfy the hearts and minds of thousands of devotees that have been abused and traumatised within ISKCON.Everyone should have the right to discuss these issues and present thier opinions without poeple like Pragosha trying to insult everyones intelligence by trivialising thier comments as philosophical misunderstandings.
You cannot whitewash decades of deciept,lies and immorality without addressing these important moral issues.This is the only way that we can all recognise these problems and deal with them accordingly.
Your Servant,
Nitya Siddha dasaPosted by Bhakta Bill @ 11/26/2005 11:49 PM PST
Dear Praghosa Prabhu,
Srila Prabhupada and the Vedas teach that one has to be a liberated soul (beyond anartha nivritti) to be able to take specific dictation and direction from the Caitya guru; Sri Guru.
How does one receive personal specific dictation and instructions from Srila Prabhupada now that he is not physically manifested?
If one who is not truly liberated can receive that type of guidance, why do acaryas keep having to appear?
Why don't we just hear from Lord Brahma, Lord Caitanya or Srila Rupa Goswami?
If you could clearly explain that, I would appreciate it.Posted by anon @ 11/26/2005 11:22 PM PST
Bhaktin Rebecca: That was good. Very nice. I liked what you said.
Posted by shiva das @ 11/26/2005 08:20 PM PST
Praghosa my problem with your comments are in your attempt to make everything everyone says fit inside your generalized point of view. Your comments have been philosophically broad whereas many of the posts and articles by others have been about specific details. Things like the above quotes from you that I commented on and this one as well are showing a contempt for other devotees opinions which you try to summarize as irreleant and based on on this:
Though everyone is loathe to admit it, this "debate" is all about who is the "Absolute" surrogate contoller, enjoyer and best friend of the aspiring devotee.
By making these statements you trivialize everything anyone says and try to characterize the entire discussion as being about determining who will "control" new bhaktas. You then go on and write a sermon from the mount which was not what the discussion was about in the first place. So to the casual observer you appear to be telling everyone that they should stop wasting their time trying to exploit new bhaktas in the name of discussing Guru Tattva and instead simply follow sadhana bhakti and engage in the activities of the preaching mission. Who do you think you are talking to? New devotees who are ignorant of the points you make in your sermon? You need to tailor your comments to your audience and to the discussion at hand. Otherwise your repetitive sermonizing comes across as coming from someone who doesn't know what the discussion is about and who at the same time insists that everyone else is not getting it. I'm not mad atcha, and I don't say these things to hurt you, but like I have complained to you numerous times on other threads already-read carefully what people post and what we have to say before commenting. You consistently mischaracterize and mistate what people have written and then you argue against your mischaracterization. Be more focused while reading and reply to peoples positions, not to your own idea that you have some great higher purpose here to set us all straight about chanting or preaching or book distribution.
Be more personal.Posted by praghosa das @ 11/26/2005 07:00 PM PST
Hello Shiva prabhu,
You inquire:"Are you saying that everyone who discusses Guru Tattva and it's various understandings and ramifications for Iskcon are doing so only to take advantage of new bhaktas? If so I have to wonder how you know the heart and mind of everyone who discusses the topic? You are in effect saying that everyone who discusses the topic is motivated by material desires. Yet we find you discussing the topic repeatedly in various threads. Ironic.
"In effect you are saying everyone but you is speaking on the topic due to the material desire for exploitation of new bhaktas as their motivation. Mayne you should lead by example? i.e zip it?"
Prabhu instead of taking my comments as an "effect" take them as they are actually stated. Even Srila Prabhupada - when the subject of "whose" disciples - the newly initiated were, said "Why ask Whose?". My point is - the entire question of who is THE guru - is the point at which everyone is stymied. Since - who is the guru means who is the FINAL AUTHORITY. How is that difficult to understand? Don't give my words meaning. Just accept them as they are. I assume English is your mother tongue. If I was going to say something like you have assumed I said - I would have said that directly.
But the fact is this. If a man came to a temple when Srila Prabhupada was with us - it was expected and understood that he approached HDG - by means of his Temple President and then through his LOCAL Governing Body Secretary. We did not approach Srila Prabhupada directly. If a man or men were working under a Temple President - no Sannyasi was allowed to come there and disturb by "commandeering" either men or money in there efforts to preach - from the Local Project. It was not allowed. Now of course - there were the exceptions to this rule but the exception only underscored the general principle.
Let us say that I am preaching in a local region - let us say Milwaukee Wisconsin and after 2 years - I have enlisted the support of 20 men. They are all chanting 16 rounds - strictly following the four regulative principles and observing all the basics of "puruscharya vidhi" process. Now I hold ISTAGHOSTI and inquire from them - "Who among you feels they would like to seal their committment to Srila Prabhupada and his mission by taking formal initiation?"
All Twenty raise their hands and holler "I"!
Now - in Srila Prabhupada's day and within the framework of his system he left us - these 20 men do not have to work to set aside an accumulated $25,000.00 to $50,000.00 US in order to travel the world - to FIND "their" guru.
What a freaking waste of time and money. That is money that could easily subsidize 3000 small books to distribute - or a complete set of Srila Prabhupada's entire library - for EACH OF THESE MEN!!! Believe me when I say that were Srila Prabhupada asked by these men - "Srila Prabhupada - I was thinking. I have been strictly following your simple instructions for over 12 months now and I want to take formal initiation. I have $1500.00 saved and I was wondering - should I travel to India or wherever to FIND MY GURU - or should I just stay here - confirm my committment through your duly appointed representative and instead of squandering it on a futile search for guru - just accept you as my ETERNAL GUIDE through your books and devotees and use this money to purchase an entire set of your books and still have some left to sell to the conditoned souls" - He would answer very simply "Just remain safely situated in your temple and work hard under the direction of my trusted Temple President and your local GBC and the appropriate "Deputy" that has been appointed by me for PRECISELY this service. You will be perfectly guided and if you continue to chant your rounds nicely each day and do your utmost to assist my devotees in their exectution of pure devotional service - you will certainly go back to home - back to Godhead at the end of this lifetime"!
This is what I was trying to say to you prabhu. And what is more - I said it for your benefit. Now if you wish that I "zip it' instead as you have no interest in such and easy and pleasing path back to Lord Krsna - that is certainly your choice.
But for anyone out there listening - this is the Absolute Truth. The process IS simple. There are those who will protest that it is anything but. However they cannot support their claim with anything stated by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. Finding THE BONEFIDE SPRITUAL MASTER is very very simple - specifically because Srila Prabhupada made it so.
As the Bhaktin Rebecca has pointed out - the real issue is who is seeking to be real disciple. That is the real issue. The Bonafide Guru is always here. This is asserted by Srila Prabhupada and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur Prabhupada. Only we have to be sincere.
As much as some might detest my offering this - calling it a mere "cut and paste" I thought you might enjoy this excerpt from Srila Prabhupada in the Science of Self Realization Chapter 7 part 5:
Srila Prabhupada: You are talking about the problem of...
Mr. O'Grady: Modern education.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. So many questions are there, but they are not
answered by modern education. "Why have I come here? What is the
purpose?" These questions should be answered perfectly. Therefore the
Vedas enjoin: tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet. To find answers
to all these questions, one must approach a bona fide spiritual master.
Mr. O'Grady: What if you have none? What if we are told that Mr. Nixon
is the bona fide spiritual master? What do we do?
Srila Prabhupada: No, no. [Laughter.] There is a standard for bona fide
spiritual masters. You have only heard one line of the verse. Who is the
spiritual master? That is the next line: srotriyam brahma-nistham. The
word srotriyam refers to one who has heard from another bona fide
source. A spiritual master is he who has taken the message from another
qualified spiritual master. This is just like a medical man who has
taken the knowledge of medical science from another medical man.
Similarly, the bona fide spiritual master must come in a line of
successive spiritual masters. The original spiritual master is God.
Mr. O'Grady: Yes. Granted.
Srila Prabhupada: One who has heard from God explains the same message
to his disciples. If the disciple doesn't change the message, he is a
bona fide spiritual master. That is our process. We take lessons by
hearing from Krsna, God, and from Him understand who is perfect. Or we
hear from His representative, who does not contradict Krsna and who has
realized His message. It is not that we speak one thing and do all
nonsense. One who does so is not a spiritual master.
Mr. O'Grady: Now there's my poor old father, living west of Ireland. A
simple old man, seventy-eight years now, your generation. He has gotten
to the point at his age where he says, "They tell me, the priests, they
tell me ultimately that it's God who knows. But I want to know who told
God." Then he comes to me and says, "You went to school, and you read
books. Tell me, who told God?" So I have no answer. That is the
difference between seventy-eight and thirty-nine years.
Srila Prabhupada: No, it is not a difference of age. The difference is
knowledge. In the Brahma-sutra the question is raised: Who is God? First
of all there is this question.
Mr. O'Grady: Who taught God?
Srila Prabhupada: No. First of all there is the question who is God.
Then we shall ask who taught God. The Vedanta-sutra says, athato brahma
jijnasa: now we should inquire who is God. Unless you know who God is,
how can you raise the question of who instructed God? If you don't know
God, the question does not arise who instructed God. Is this not so?
Mr. O'Grady: Yes.
Srila Prabhupada: Who God is, is explained in the Brahma-sutra. Janmady
asya yatah: God is He from whom everything emanates. That is God--the
Supreme Being from whom everything emanates. Now, what is the nature of
that Supreme Being? Is He a dead stone or a living entity? That is also
explained. Janmady asya yato 'nvayad itaratas carthesv abhijnah svarat
(Srimnad-Bhagavatam 1.1.1): the Supreme Being is fully cognizant of
everything, directly and indirectly. Unless He is fully cognizant of
everything, He cannot be God. Then the question that you raised comes,
Who taught God? And that is also answered. Svarat: He is fully
independent. He does not need to take lessons from anyone. That is God.
If one needs to take lessons from others, he is not God. Krsna spoke the
Bhagavad-gita, and He did not have to learn it from anyone. I had to
learn it from my spiritual master, but Krsna did not have to learn it
from anyone. One who does not need to take lessons from others is God.
Mr. O'Grady: Where does human love come in?
Srila Prabhupada: Everything is coming from God. Being part and parcel
of God, we manifest partial love because the original love is there in
Him. Nothing can exist if it is not in God; therefore love is there in
God.
Mr. O'Grady: And manifestations of love are manifestations of God?
Srila Prabhupada: Unless the loving propensity is there in God, how can
we manifest it? A son born of a particular father has the symptoms of
the father. Because the loving propensity is in God, we have that same
propensity.
Mr. O'Grady: Maybe love is generated in you by the need.
Srila Prabhupada: No, there is no question of "maybe." We are defining
God in absolute terms. Janmady asya yatah: God is He from whom
everything has emanated. The fighting propensity is also there in God,
but His fighting and His loving are absolute. In the material world we
experience that fighting is just the opposite of loving, but in God the
fighting propensity and the loving propensity are one and the same. That
is the meaning of "absolute." We learn from the Vedic scriptures that
when the so-called enemies of God are killed by God, they attain
liberation.
Mr. O'Grady: Is it possible to arrive at this understanding of God
alone?
Srila Prabhupada: No. Therefore we have cited this verse: tadvijnanartham
sa gurum evabhigacchet. The word abhigacchet means "must."
It is not possible alone. In Sanskrit grammar this is called the
vidhilin form of a verb, and this form is used when there is no choice.
The word abhigacchet means that one must approach a guru. That is the
Vedic version. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita you will find that Arjuna
was talking to Krsna, but when he saw that things were not being
resolved, he surrendered himself to Krsna and accepted Him as his guru.
karpanya-dosopahata-svabhavah
prcchami tvam dharma-sammudha-cetah
yac chreyah syan niscitam bruhi tan me
sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam tvam prapannam
"Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure
because of weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me
clearly what is best for me. Now I am Your disciple, and a soul
surrendered unto You. Please instruct me." (Bg. 2.7) So here we can see
that Arjuna is confused about his duty.
Mr. O'Grady: Is this duty to the self, to others, or to the state?
Srila Prabhupada: A soldier's duty is to fight with the enemy. Arjuna
was a soldier, and Krsna advised him, "The opposite party is your enemy,
and you are a soldier. Why are you trying to be nonviolent? This is not
good." Then Arjuna said, "Actually, I am confused. In this confusion I
cannot make the right decision. I therefore accept You as my spiritual
master. Please give me the proper lesson." In a chaotic condition, in a
confused state of life, one should approach another, who is in full
knowledge of the matter. You go to a lawyer to solve legal problems, and
you go to a physician to solve medical problems. Everyone in the
material world is confused about spiritual identity. It is therefore our
duty to approach a bona fide spiritual master, who can give us real
knowledge.
Mr. O'Grady: I am very confused.
Srila Prabhupada: So you must approach a spiritual master.
Mr. O'Grady: And he makes a decision on how to help me stop this
confusion?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, the spiritual master is one who solves all
confusion. If the spiritual master cannot save his disciple from
confusion, he is not a spiritual master. That is the test.
samsara-davanala-lidha-lokatranaya
karunya-ghanaghanatvam
praptasya kalyana-gunarna vasya
vande guroh sri-caranara vindam
This whole confused world is just like a blazing forest fire. In a
forest fire all the animals are confused. They do not know where to go
to save their lives. In the blazing fire of the material world, everyone
is confused. How can that blazing forest fire be extinguished? It is not
possible to utilize your man-made fire brigade, nor is it possible to
simply pour buckets of water. The solution comes when rain from the
clouds falls on the forest fire. Only then can the fire be extinguished.
That ability is not in your hands, but is in the mercy of God. So, human
society is in a confused state, and it cannot find a solution. The
spiritual master is one who has received the mercy of God, and he can
deliver the solution to the confused man. One who has received the mercy
of God can become a spiritual master and deliver that mercy to others.
Mr. O'Grady: The problem is to find this spiritual master.
Srila Prabhupada: That is not the problem. The problem is whether you
are sincere. You have problems, but God is within your heart. Isvarah
sarva-bhutanam. God is not far away. If you are sincere, God sends you a
spiritual master. Therefore God is also called caitya-guru, the
spiritual master within the heart. God helps from within and from
without. Everything is thus described in the Bhagavad-gita. This
material body is like a machine, but within the heart is the soul, and
with the soul is the Supersoul, Krsna, who gives directions. The Lord
says, "You wanted to do this; now here is the chance. Go and do it." If
you are sincere, you say, "Now, God, I want You." Then He will give you
directions. "Yes, now you come and get Me like this." This is His
kindness. However, if we want something else, that is all right. We can
have it. God is very kind. When I want something, He is in my heart
directing me and telling me how to have it. So why should He not give
directions on how to have a spiritual master? First of all we must again
be eager to revive our God consciousness. Then God will give us a
spiritual master.
Mr. O'Grady: Thank you very much.
Srila Prabhupada: Thank you very much. My request to you is this. You
are a poet. Just describe God. You are expert in describing, and
therefore I ask you to kindly describe God in your occupation. Then your
life will be successful. And if one hears you, his life will also be
successful. That is the injunction:
idam hi pumsas tapasah srutasya va
svistasya suktasya ca buddhi-dattayoh
avicyuto 'rthah kavibhir nirupito
yad uttamasloka-gunanu varnanam
(Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.5.22)
There are many leaders in society who are poets, scientists,
religionists, philosophers, politicians, and so on. Those who are so
expert are given this injunction: Your duty is to perfect your
occupation by describing the glories of the Supreme Being.
Mr. O'Grady: My experience is that, for some extraordinary reason, one
is chosen to do a particular thing.
Srila Prabhupada: That reason is given here. Avicyutah. The infallible
choice is this: "Let them describe the glories of the Lord."
Mr. O'Grady: But you were saying that the spiritual master is chosen.
The spiritual master, the poet, the priest, is chosen by God. This
person is chosen to write poems or paint pictures or make music.
Srila Prabhupada: So when you compose music, compose music about God.
That is your perfection.
Mr. O'Grady: When one works for God in his line, then his line becomes
his perfection?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes.
Mr. O'Grady: Thank you very much.
In 1973 I discovered THE BONAFIDE SPIRITUAL MASTER - Srila Prabhupada - by means of his books and devotees. I did NOT have to go on a worldwide search to find my guru. I did not "Luck Out" as has been suggested - despite any obvious "lack of qualifications" to choose a bonafide spiritual master. I was delivered "unconditional mercy" and was no more "qualified" than your average rat to accept it. That VERY SAME MERCY is NOW - TODAY - NOVEMBER 26, 2005 still every bit as available to any soul who wishes to find and accept it.
The implications made by some are that there are simply no uttama adhikaris - pure devotees of the Lord now walking the planet and thus today - the residents of planet earth are not nearly as fortunate as the hippies of San Francisco and the queers of New York were back in 1966!!
Balderdash!! Anyone who sees things in this manner are simply unfortunate. Most unfortunate. Srila Prabhupada came for the expressed purpose of ENSURING that the Bonafide Spiritual Master would be FULLY AVAILABLE for the next 10,000 years - by means of his books and loyal devotees. Bas! Finito! END OF STORY!!
As Srila Prabhupada said in the above excerpt:
Mr. O'Grady: The problem is to find this spiritual master.
Srila Prabhupada: That is not the problem. The problem is whether you are sincere. You have problems, but God is within your heart. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam. God is not far away. If you are sincere, God sends you a
spiritual master. Therefore God is also called caitya-guru, the
spiritual master within the heart. God helps from within and from without. Everything is thus described in the Bhagavad-gita. This material body is like a machine, but within the heart is the soul, and with the soul is the Supersoul, Krsna, who gives directions. The Lord says, "You wanted to do this; now here is the chance. Go and do it." If
you are sincere, you say, "Now, God, I want You." Then He will give you directions. "Yes, now you come and get Me like this." This is His kindness. However, if we want something else, that is all right. We can have it. God is very kind. When I want something, He is in my heart directing me and telling me how to have it. So why should He not give directions WHY SHOULD HE NOT GIVE DIRECTIONS on how to have a spiritual master? FIRST of all we must again
be eager to revive our God consciousness. THEN God will give us a spiritual master."
So Srila Prabhupada has given us direct instructions "HOw to have a spiritual master - and it is an open secret! It is NOT more difficult for anyone today than it was in 1969. It is EXACTLY the same and EXACTLY as easy.
Respectfully
Praghosa DasPosted by A. Svami @ 11/26/2005 04:17 PM PST
Dear Rocana Prabhu,
You are doing a great service not only (as you yourself write) to yourself, but also to the many, many disfranchised godbrothers by not allowing past history to be swept under the carpet. The real issue for the Iskcon leadership is following Prabhupada's wishes for cooperation and preaching. The real guru puja that every one of us must do is to listen intently to Prabhupada daily. That is not going on anywhere in Iskcon, and as a result, they, the Iskcon leadership, have used Prabhupada for their own ambitions and have eliminated the godbrothers. They turned Prabhupada's movement into a business where they are the rock stars and Prabhupada is their figurehead. That's pretty cynical but I'm afraid accurate.Posted by Bhaktin Rebecca @ 11/26/2005 01:24 PM PST
"The question before us all is whether or not, at this point in time, one can find such a bona fide maha-bhagavata for one’s guru. We all accept Srila Prabhupada and other Sampradaya Acaryas in our disciplic succession as being genuine maha-bhagavatas.
An unavoidable and irrefutable historical phenomenon that transpired during Srila Prabhupada’s ISKCON lila is that a nitya-siddha maha-bhagavata was accepted by his young, naïve, and neophyte disciples as simply their 'diksa guru'. Of course, there was the added title, "Founder-Acarya of ISKCON", which was also not fully comprehended. In other words, we all lucked-out, and in many cases took Srila Prabhupada for granted. No one had anywhere near the spiritual qualifications required in properly selecting a bona fide spiritual master." - Rocana Prabhu
I was glancing over this discussion, and that section caught my eye. I do think discussions on guru-tattva ara relevant and can often be helpful to individuals.
These two paragraphs, though really get at something I've long felt, and something that I think deserves as much attention as the guru-tattva issue. Perhaps it could even be a help in "solving" it, if such a thing is possible to do on anything other than a person-by-person basis.
It seems to me that the qualification of a disciple could use a bit more attention. I, myself, have been in ISKCON for ten years without being initiated? Why? Well, I could try and blame so many things, but, honest to God, I have come time and again to the conclusion that I have only myself to "blame." I am simply not ready, not yet qualified.
I have pondered the guru issue countless times, swayed this way and that, and over and over again come to the same conclusion. I am not likely to become convinced about who to take shelter of in a bona fide guru-disciple relationship until I MYSELF AM QUALIFIED! Sorry to shout, but I feel a great need for others to hear this.
Guru-tattva discussions are very important, but even with flashing neon lights and sirens to direct one to the truth, one has to be able to see and hear. One has to be qualified. We should also focus much attention on helping people to understand just what they need to do to be a qualified disciple, for what happened when Srila Prabhupada was here, as describe by Rocana Prabhu, is not going to be what happens for the rest of us that did not participate in those pastimes. I have absolutely no cause to expect that I will, by some lucky fluke or causeless mercy, find my unqualified self having taken initiation from a pure devotee of the Lord.
I have every reason to expect that I need to work hard and possibly long at becoming qualified, coming to the point where I can be a proper disciple, before Sri Krishna will reveal to me just who it is that I should beg initiation from.
I have no doubt whatsoever that if I qualify myself, Sri Krishna will make the necessary arrangements for such a bona fide initiation to take place.
Now I need to clarify just what I mean by "qualified" and "initiation." I am a hard-core believer that real initiation is an entirely different matter than a fire-yagna. This I have learned from my siksha guru, a prominent GBC-Guru in ISKCON.
Real initiation takes place in the heart, as we should all know. It means both the guru and disciple are qualified. While the guru-tattva debate works on establishing what a bona fide, qualified guru is, let's stop a moment to consider what a bona fide, qualified disciple is.
Is being qualified merely a matter of rattling off a fixed number of rounds every day? Of abstaining from four things detrimental to spiritual life, a.k.a. following the four regs? Is it a matter of simply dragging one's self to the prescribed temple programs and relegated service as metted out by local authorities?
I think not. I've seen too many people give up their spiritual life after taking initiation to believe that. Those external things are easier for some, and harder for others, quite often because of material dispositions.
Oh yes! I just proclaimed that the fact that one person finds it easy to attend mangal arti and another finds it hard may be entirely due to MATERIAL conditions! We all know that if one is spiritually advanced, that person will naturally be enthusiastic to do such things as attend mangal arti, but we should never give into the faulty logic of "if A then B, so if B then A." Finding it easy to follow the externals Srila Prabhupada required for taking initiation does not in itself indicate a more qualified soul, nor true qualification for that real initiation within the heart.
I am very grateful that Rocana Prabhu included the description of a true, qualified disciple in his post. This should be taught thoroughly to everyone and everyone interested in spiritual life. We must each one of us search within to see if we truly live up to this discription. We must endeavor to come to this platform, and always endeavor to become ever more better as a disciple.
A disciple should not pretend any more than a guru.
Causeless mercy is there, but we should not become lazy and expect to get by on handouts. "Become qualified" can apply to disciples as well.And, as I've expressed before, I've no doubt that if we do endeavor to the best of our abilities to become qualified, Sri Krishna will help us and lead us where we need to go. He wants our sucess in spiritual life more than we do, but He wants to see us try, as my siksha gur repeatedly points out.
So let us focus more on helping people to understand what a bona fide disciple is, and how to become that. It is needed as much as the discussion on guru-tattva. Both are needed.
y/s Bhaktin RebeccaPosted by Praghosa das @ 11/26/2005 09:29 AM PST
Hello Rocana prabhu,
I will not address all your personal criticisms or points. That would waste your time and mine as well.
If you will notice though - I have never attempted to point out to the readers WHY you might have said this or that. This is misleading. I will tell your readers though that in truth I can only remember meeting you once in our entire life. Once - and I cannot even remember when that occurred. But it was a long time ago.
I have never attempted to connect my comments with any form of "inflated" sense of self importance whatsoever. I have merely stated the facts as they actually are. These SIMPLE FACTS do not depend upon anything or anyone. They stand alone.
You have created your own world with this website. You monitor it and decided what gets printed as articles etc. There is some degree of freedom to respond to these articles yes, though you are in a position to monitor or edit that as well.
My efforts are to simply point out the utter simplicity of Krsna
Consciousness as it was given by Srila Prabhupada. My saying this is not a reflection of some "elitist" mindset. It is simply practical and realistic. Your rejection of my statement is certainly your right. Who can stop you. However - you and I have not met nor discussed ANYTHING PERSONALLY - EVER in our entire life! Ever. Simpy put - you do not know me from the man on the moon! Yet you make all this exaggerated claims as to WHY I say the things I say? And then call ME arrogant? Or immature? Hmm.. I will leave it to the readers to draw their own conclusions on that.
But I will say that you have offered a fine quotation from CC on the subject of Guru Tattwa. Wonderful and we all thank you for that.
However in doing so - what is your real point? I have never claimed anything other than that one is so advised to seek out and take full shelter of the Bonafide Spiritual Master. Show me where I have advised otherwise?
My claim is very very simple. I am sorry if it vexes you so that I make this statement. I do not wish to sound cavalier or "elitist" as you claim. But I cannot change the facts. Srila Prabhupada DID make the process of approaching and taking full shelter of the Bonafide Spiritual Master INCREDIBLY simple. It is you that appears to disagree with this point. I fully accept this description of the Bonafide Guru - how could I not? I also have never wavered in my affirming that everyone should be given the opportunity to take full shelter of the Bonafide Guru. Never. Where in any of my comments have you ever found that I expressed otherwise? You cannot find such statements by myself. I have claimed and will always assert - that the shelter of THE BONAFIDE GURU was made permanently available by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada through his books and the simple system of devotional service he left us.
I stress that it is simple and I am not going to change that emphasis to please you. Nor will I change that to avoid being villified by you personally for being an"arrogant,immature, elitist". I will not alter my position just to please you or avoid your strange tactics in this discussion.
Why not just stick to the real issue? I may be this or that. Fine. Let us pretend for the sake of argument - that not only is Praghosa an immature and arrogant elitist. Let us pretend that he is a murderer, dope dealing meat eater who spends his time gambling and chasing whores and also...chews Chicklets! (I protest that I do not chew Chicklets lest the readers take these accusations seriously!) Now no matter what I may do or be - none of that would change my simple point, which is:
1. Every one needs to take full shelter of THE BONAFIDE SPIRITUAL MASTER and the qualities and verifiable features of THAT person are clearly given by HDG in all of his purports.
2. Approaching THAT personality has been arranged perfectly by HDG through the formation of his ISKCON mission. He - Srila Prabhupada is permanently fixed as THE CURRENT LINK in to the Disciplic Succession and our approaching and taking full shelter of Srila Prabhupada as our ETERNAL SPIRITUAL MASTER has been expertly arranged by Srila Prabhupada Himself.
You have taken my comments ""The words "guru", "siksa/diksa", "ritvik", etc etc - in the end are just words.” as being an arrogant dismissal of all the discussion at hand or a clear dismissal of the value or need for such. It was not this at all. Perhaps I was not clear and if not allow me to apologise for that and I will try to clarify my comments.
Srila Prabhupada did in fact appoint 11 men as "Officiating Acharyas"(His words not mine) to initiate, in his words (not mine) "ON MY BEHALF". He was then asked by HH Tamal Krsna Goswami "Is that called "Ritvik Srila Prabhupada?" and Srila Prabhupada said "YES Ritvik". Who he appointed - and more importantly - who he denied - served as the "template" for any future appointments. I am sorry to have to use this term but again I will stress that this was and is "Very simple". It is simple English and I am not "Elitist" for saying so.
Ritvik is a word that desribes in the simplest of terms, the consciousness of the men who are initiating on behalf of Srila Prabhupada and the Parampara. That is all. Their position is first and foremost - an official and authorized POST. This is factual. I am simply describing reality. Were they anything other than this - they could not be "managed" by the Governing Body Commission - but they are - and this "management" demonstrates that their position is first and foremost - official; as it indded needs to be in order for the Institution to function correctly.
Now they are urged by every word of the scripture and Srila Prabhpada himself - to proceed in their devotional service to the point where as Chaitanya Mahaprabhu says "Tears are pouring like rain and their hairs are standing on end" as they recite the names of the Divine Couple. And any devotee can and will seek the association of such wonderful devotees who swim endlessly in the Ocean of Devotion. But that does not changed the arrangements of Srila Prabhupada one iota! Not one. Within his ISKCON mission - the positon of initiating guru will always be FIRST - an OFFICIAL POST and ONLY those who, apart from personifying the qualities of the uttama adhikari as they are given Srila Prabhupada in the Upadesamrta, understand and support this should ever be acknowledged as fully qualified to assume this important post.
The fulfillment of the initiation process - was made easy by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. It is fully explained in his Chaitanya Caritamrta Madhya Lila 15:104-108 (Sorry to have to "cut and paste like that prabhu) and this "simplicity" was expected by HDG to be understood and embraced by his Temple Presidents and Governing Body Secretaries. Simple stuff.
Did I say Simple? Sorry prabhu. Bad habits die hard!
It is simple. The simple and easily discernable qulalities of the uttama adhikari are given by Srila Prabhupada. Such men are posted by the GBC to accept the recommendations of the "LOCAL" leadership as to those men who have demonstrated faithful and enthusiastic adherence to the simple process of "puruscharya vidhi". There is no need for them to go on a futile search for "THEIR" guru! They are secure in knowing that whoever is "authorized" by the Governing Body to initiate on behalf of Srila Prabhpuada meets the minimum qualifications to do so, is loyal to His Divine Grace and clearly acts as the representative of Srila Prabhupada - performing this simple function ON BEHALF OF SRILA PRABHUPADA.
The ABSOLUTE GURU is His Divine Grace - Srila Prabhupada. This is simply reality. I have only described reality.
Now if you consider my saying this motivated by an arrogant, immature elitist mentality - that is your right to dream or imagine whatever you like.
But if you disagree with my points at all - from this point forward - why not spare us the "psychological profiling" and address the points themselves.
I disagree with anyone, inside of ISKCON or outside, who might profess that the taking shelter of THE BONAFIDE SPIRITUAL MASTER IS MORE PROBLEMATIC TODAY IN 2006 than it was for me in the spring of 1973. - I did NOT accompany my claims with any personal attack upon anyone with the kinds of claims you have made.
If you do not accept what I have written - then provide proper and legitimate dissent,sans the slander and name calling.
Are most of the men explaining these "facts of life" in this manner WITHIN ISKCON at present. No they are not. Is that a problem? Yes it is. do many of the leaders in ISKCON advocate that the new men should be "LOOKING" or hunting for "THEIR" Guru within ISKCON? Yes they are. You are not advocating anything different from these leaders. YOu say they need to look. ISKCON says "They need to look".
The difference is the ISKCON leadership says the qualified guru is available in ISKCON and it is to be found in one of the appointed gurus. You seem to argue that the BONAFIDE GURU is not to be found in ISKCON - but the men "should be looking" somewhere... nonetheless. I could be wrong - but this is what the entire thrust of this Sampradaya Sun site seems to be professing. Now if I am wrong in that...tell me.
I assert that it is simple to fulfill the instructions of the Sastra that one find a guru and take full shelter. This was made simple and easy by our Srila Prabhupada through his books and his practical ISKCON mission.
I also assert that one is free to take it...or leave it. If saying that with conviction and enthusiasm and loving confidence in our Srila Prabhupada - will earn your ire and slander as an arrogant elitist - then you might want to rethink your comments as I am confident that you are likewise just as confident in our Srila Prabhupada and the availability of his shelter.
Respectfully
Praghosa DasPosted by shiva das @ 11/26/2005 08:31 AM PST
Praghosa he is wrote:
The words "guru", "siksa/diksa", "ritvik", etc etc - in the end are just words that can contribute to the endless "debates" about "WHO IS IN CHARGE" or who is in control of the meager energy of the individual who comes for shelter at the lotus feet of Lord Krsna.
Are you saying that everyone who discusses Guru Tattva and it's various understandings and ramifications for Iskcon are doing so only to take advantage of new bhaktas? If so I have to wonder how you know the heart and mind of everyone who discusses the topic? You are in effect saying that everyone who discusses the topic is motivated by material desires. Yet we find you discussing the topic repeatedly in various threads. Ironic.
In effect you are saying everyone but you is speaking on the topic due to the material desire for exploitation of new bhaktas as their motivation. Mayne you should lead by example? i.e zip it?
Anon you wrote:Rocana's attacks against Danavir Swami are very serious allegations that must be challeneged and I consider it tantamount to "defamation of character."
Whatever. In Kazahkstan we are having saying: What you do if a Uzbek throw hand-grenade at you? Take pin out and throw back.
Anon you also wrote:With all due respect SS should be torn down and is an offense to ISKCON and the serious Vaisnavas. There! How's that?
Is good for you to be hear, yes? It is like the joke we have in Kazakhstan: There is a man who see a small house. He say to the man who own this small house: Is this a house for a dog? No, says the other man, it is not house for a dog. So, who live here? A man, he say! A man? This is too small for a man! He say: Is this a man from Kazakhstan? No, the other man answer, it is not a man from Kazakhstan! Is this a man from Turkmenistan? He say no, is not a man from Turkmenistan! Is this a man from Uzbekistan, he ask. He answer YES!!!!!!!!!!
Then anon wrote:Perhaps we can meet on the Battlefied of Kuruksetra one last time.
He is strong man. He will crush his opponents and he will be powerful like Stalin and not tolerate people who are bad. If you do not vote for him, he will TAKE power! If you vote for him he will make sure you and your family have a good years. If you do not.... you will be sorry.
Then anon said:You don't know what you are talking about and I do not want to hear about freedom of speech. SS is a wolf in sheep's clothing. The weed coming as a flower, demonic in nature. That's a fact. The "sun staff stories and pretty pictures" are a ruse to disuade others from the real truth. What is that truth? That everyone coming to ISKCON should take formal initiation from devotee qualified to do so.
In Uzbekistan they having many hobbies: disco dancing, archery, rape and table tennis.
Then anon wrote:However, I am wondering what Srila Prabhupada's feelings would be about Rocana das's creating more illusion within an illusion from the supposedly "white tower" from which he sits, unseen, to defame those who are trying to spread the holy names of the lord.
In U.S. and A. they treat horses like in Uzbekistan treat women. They feed them two times a day. They have them sleep on straw in a small box. And for entertainment, they make them jump over fences while being whipped.Posted by Rocana dasa @ 11/25/2005 06:01 PM PST
I am pleased that Praghosa das has become a regular contributor to the Sun Blogs. We met on numerous occasions in the early days. He was renowned as a famous “BIG book distributor” with considerable celebrity status during Srila Prabhupada's lila period and for some years after.
It’s difficult to describe in a few words the “fat” headspace some of these legends developed in their own minds during the good old days. Dare I say it, Praghosa dasa, in this and other Blogs, seems to still be infected with such an “unreal” attitude. His mood strikes me as arrogantly condescending. His lofty talk about the simplicity of Srila Prabhupada’s program is one-dimensional and naïve. It seems that he uses this language in order to appear to be exceptionally transcendental to the petty endless squabbles of the unenlightened masses. Does this mentality remind anyone else of the elitist institutional mood we “independents” dare to reveal as ordinary sadhana bhaktas?
Praghosa exposes himself as being less than transcendental with statements like this one: "The words "guru", "siksa/diksa", "ritvik", etc etc - in the end are just words.” Of course, he relies on such "words" in order to make his own statements and assertions.
Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu and his deputed siddhantic representatives, the Six Goswamis, don’t agree with Praghosa's dismissive position as it relates to our discussion of guru tattva. We need to discuss today’s practical application of guru-tattva within ISKCON, and we obviously have to use words to do so. Our Vaisnava Acaryas have given us highly detailed explanations of the meaning of so many words. This enables us to study, comprehend, realize, and preach.
Praghosa seems to be fond of cut-and-paste quotations, so I’ve included what I see as one of the most significant sections within Srila Prabhupada's books on guru-tattva, his Caitanya-caritamrta purports to text 330 of Madhya lila 24. Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu requested Sanatana Goswami to write a book about the authorized directions of Vaisnava activities. The very first topic is……surprise…guru tattva!
Translation:
“Your book should describe the characteristics of the bona fide guru and the bona fide disciple. Then, before accepting a spiritual master, one can be assured of the spiritual master’s position. Similarly, the spiritual master can also be assured of the disciple’s position."
I selected some of the main points from the extensive purport that are particularly relevant to this conversation: I suggest the reader go to the book or Veda base and study thoroughly the complete version by Srila Prabhupada.
- The guru must be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service.
- The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people.
- The guru is not limited to a particular group.
- A guru is a goswami, a controller of the senses and the mind. Such a guru can accept disciples from all over the world. This is the test of the guru.
- The guru is a qualified brahmana, therefore he knows Brahman and Parabrahman. He thus devotes his life for the service of Parabrahman.
- He strictly follows the brahminical principles and teaches these principles to his disciples. Such a person is called an acarya because he knows the principles of devotional service, he behaves in that way himself, and he teaches his disciples to follow in his footsteps. Thus he is an acarya or jagad-guru.
- A guru is a brahmana by qualification, and he can turn others into brahmanas according to the sastric principles and brahminical qualifications.
The maha-bhagavata is:
- One who decorates his body with tilaka and whose name indicates him to be a servant of Krsna by the word dasa
- initiated by a bona fide spiritual master
- is expert in worshiping the Deity
- chanting mantras correctly
- performing sacrifices
- offering prayers to the Lord and performing sankirtana.
- knows how to serve the Supreme Personality of Godhead
- knows how to respect a Vaisnava.
- maha-bhagavata is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru.
The disciple must have the following qualifications.
- give up interest in the material bodily conception
- give up material lust, anger, greed, illusion, madness and envy
- be interested only in understanding the science of God
- should be ready to consider all points in this matter
- no longer thinks, “I am this body,” or, “This thing belongs to me”
- loves the spiritual master with unflinching faith
- is very steady and fixed
- should be inquisitive to understand transcendental subject matters
- should not search out faults among good qualities
- is no longer be interested in material topics
- his only interest should be Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead
A serious disciple must be:
- alert when selecting a bona fide spiritual master.
- sure that the spiritual master can deliver all the transcendental necessities
The spiritual master must observe how:
- inquisitive the disciple is
- eager he is to understand the transcendental subject matter
The spiritual master should:
- study the disciple’s inquisitiveness for no less than six months or a year
- not be very anxious to accept a disciple because of his material opulences
The question before us all is whether or not, at this point in time, one can find such a bona fide maha-bhagavata for one’s guru. We all accept Srila Prabhupada and other Sampradaya Acaryas in our disciplic succession as being genuine maha-bhagavatas.
An unavoidable and irrefutable historical phenomenon that transpired during Srila Prabhupada’s ISKCON lila is that a nitya-siddha maha-bhagavata was accepted by his young, naïve, and neophyte disciples as simply their 'diksa guru'. Of course, there was the added title, "Founder-Acarya of ISKCON", which was also not fully comprehended. In other words, we all lucked-out, and in many cases took Srila Prabhupada for granted. No one had anywhere near the spiritual qualifications required in properly selecting a bona fide spiritual master.
A major feature of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s transcendental pastimes is “opening the flood gates of love of God and indiscriminately distributing the causeless mercy throughout the entire planet”. In order to accomplish this task, Lord Caitanya sent his (nitya-siddha) “associates”, Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur. The Yuga Avatar’s pastimes are still transpiring. We were all “flooded” during Srila Prabhupada's manifest lila. Today, we are still trying to figure out what happened. Without discussing our realizations freely, openly and fearlessly, how can we understand this inconceivable display of Krsna’s causeless mercy? Basically, Praghosa, Danavir Goswami and Anon dasa express the opinion that we small-timers don’t have the God-given right to discuss Guru-tattva. All Srila Prabhupada’s followers/disciples, including them, are expected to just unquestionably embrace the latest version of the GBC’s guru tattva explanation.
I am embarrassed to admit that I gave the GBC the benefit of the doubt for many years after 1977. As a result, I endured many horrible experiences. My writing is one of the ways in which I can explore my past and become more realized about my own spiritual journey. For Praghosa dasa, perhaps re-embracing of his past dedication to distributing Srila Prabhupada's books is the way he's handling his life. Each to his/her own individuality, be true.
I'm not sure why Praghosa chooses to belittle other people's methodologies, but by the tone of his voice I detect the tell-tale “big book” elitist contamination so prevalent during that bygone era. According to Praghosa, everyone should forget about all these "words" and SIMPLY distribute books. But Srila Prabhupada didn't say that! That's not what was happening even at the height of Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON lila. It required a complete, unified effort to get the books out. Many devotees were engaged in totally different activities. In fact, the book distributors were only the tip of a very long spear thrown by Sri Krsna himself. Srila Prabhupada had very BIG plans.
I suggest Praghosa give up his immature, unflattering criticism of those who are making an effort to discuss. I've made the same suggestion to HH Danavir Goswami, who expressed a similarly obnoxious big-Swami mentality. Give us a break. That mood is one of the main reasons many of us left ISKCON. Hypocrisy is another symptom of Kali yuga.
In Los Angeles, I once heard Srila Prabhupada say, “I’m the only big devotee here.”
That hasn't changed.Posted by Alex @ 11/25/2005 06:00 PM PST
Dear Prabhus,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I've read the main article and I am following these posts with interest.
I would like to share something.
I am not clear as to which sastra(s) 'the ritvik philosophy' might be going against. In my ten years of contact with KC I am still not terribly clear on this point.
Perhaps I am not gasping the core of what some might mean by 'the ritvik philosophy'.
Perhaps I would better understand where others are coming from if they were willing to share with me what sastra is being twisted, or misrepresented, or ignored by 'the ritvik philosophy'.
Or perhaps, someone is willing to tell me more about what they mean when they say 'the ritvik philisophy'. Maybe this will make it clearer to me what sastra we are
referring to.
One of the reasons why I ask this, is that it seems to me that (at least) my own objections to 'the ritvik philosophy' have generally not been rational...but rather social. I told myself that 'the ritvik philosophy' was wrong, primarily because some other people who I looked up to told me that it was wrong.
Also, I didn't like some of what I saw as the combative moods of certain 'ritvik people'.
Again, here I am only speaking for myself, but as I understand 'the ritvik philosophy'...it's not clear to me which sastra(s) it goes against.
Perhaps we are thinking of different things when we say 'ritivk philosophy'. I would be happy to hear more from others so as to better understand.
I would like to share a personal opinion of mine. Here it is: I personally don't see 'ritivk' as a big deal, or as necessarily a bad thing, or as necessarily against sastra. And this has been my generally unexpressed opinion pretty much since I came in
contact with KC.
I understand that there seems to be a constellation of ideas that are labelled as 'ritivk' and whose
proponents even self-identify as 'ritvik devotees' (or some similar name).
I am not necessarily convinced that a relationship in which the devotee performing the initiation ceremony
is acting primarily in a 'priest role' (with perhaps little authority in the initiate's life) is necessarily a bad thing...if this works for both parties...and if the relationship assists the initiate to strengthen his or her direct link with Srila Prabhupada.
The objections which I seem to have internally to 'ritvik' seem to be mostly of two types. One objection
is that I don't like what I perceive as an (IMO) needlessly combative (and perhaps absolutist) approach in presenting 'ritvik ideas'.
The other internal objection that I have seems to be a 'tape' that I have playing in my mind that basically says "Ritvik is bad...rivik is bad" (on loop) with
little rational or philosophical substantiation for the claim.
Hare Krsna.
Your servant,
AlexPosted by gour nityananda dasa @ 11/25/2005 12:28 PM PST
i beg to inform you that not only is the content of this discussion annoying but it is also deviant.
the persons who are running this show are obviously unable to accept that other persons exist who dissagree with them.
chant hare krsna and be happyPosted by BB das @ 11/25/2005 11:52 AM PST
I don't know how much you are in touch with the reality of present day Iskcon..."Local Temples" are just an extention of the "Guru's" control. They simply put like minded disciples and or cronies in place to police their materially motivated schemes(in most cases).
In regards to saying who is qualified to become Guru, Srila Prabhupada explains in the following conversation;
SP Morning walk LA 1972:
Svarupa Damodara(to phd's): …’how do you know that guru is qualified, spiritual master is qualified?’ Then I said everything is written in the sastras, so we have to follow according to the injunctions written in the sastras. So all the qualifications of a pure devotee, of a bona fide guru, is written there. Just like you are a professor of physics in the university. Before you came, you had some qualification, degree of doctors. And then there is a committee to decide you whether you are qualified for the post. So it is selected by a committee of members and then they interview and then they find out your qualifications. If they find that you are qualified for the post, so you are selected as a professor. It’s like that in the spiritual field also.
Prabhupada: Committee is his spiritual master, he orders that you do this.
Also;
He is self-made guru. Therefore he’s not guru. Self-made guru cannot be guru. He must be authorized by the bona fide guru. Then he’s guru….bona fide guru means he must be authorized by the superior guru. ...He must receive the order from the superior. And the superior must be bona fide. Then he’s bona fide, not self-made.
(NOD Lectures Vrndavan, India 10/31/72)Posted by Prahlada M dasa @ 11/25/2005 11:22 AM PST
Dear Praghosa prabhu,
Hare Krsna. My obeisances unto you.
Sir, I accept that all of devotional service is 'simple', not complicated. Thank you for your repeated emphasis and clarification.
However, I have a question regarding the role of the temple presidents today and those of old.
Today, most temples in the west have a temple board as well as a temple president. There are some variations from temple to temple, but almost all are unlike the temple management as composed of a president, a secretary and a treasurer - as stated in many of the letters by Srila Prabhupada.
Today, temple board members can be composed of almost anyone - from visitors to donors to paid employees to professionals to cooks to pujaris. A president, if there is one, is subordinate to this board. His decisions are subject to the majority vote of any resolution. In effect, though titled ‘the president’, he is actually a committee chairman.
Does this change anything in any way about what you say is the role of temple presidents as described by Srila Prabhupada? Does the fact that a 'president' may be a committee chairman change anything?
Please Consider Some Relevant Details
1. To go before a temple president today means to put a proposal before a committee;
2. the response has to await the time the board may be able to discuss your proposal; and,
3. the proposal must gain a majority vote.
Each of these steps represents a hurdle that has to be overcome. Only those proficient in the art of lobbying will have confidence in attaining their ends. And, more often than not, it is the committee members who will have such abilities, rather than the rank and file devotees.
Moreover, both the managements of old and of today have had to grapple with 'balancing of the books'. Only difference is that today there is no equivalent of a president who grapples with the order to preach, to not just maintain temples or to build new ones. For him, maintaining and constructing buildings was not enough (barring the three in India).
No, I am not saying maintaining temples is bad or that committees are bad, or that ISKCON is bad. I only ask: whether committee chairmen are the same as the presidents of old? Whether committees and committee members are comparable to the presidents, secretaries and treasurers of old?
Your full and candid answer will be appreciated.Posted by Praghosa Das @ 11/25/2005 08:22 AM PST
Hello prabhus,
I wanted to address a couple of comments posted by Mr Anon.
He writes the following:
"The "sun staff stories and pretty pictures" are a ruse to disuade others from the real truth. WHAT IS THAT TRUTH? That everyone coming to ISKCON should take formal initiation from devotee qualified to do so. This has been the system since time immemmorial and you can challenge that because of this and that unitl you are blue in the face. When you say SS is a "serious preaching site" I laugh hard! Srila Prabhupada would NEVER approve."
The question of "formal initiation" was asked of His Divine Grace in the spring of 1977. His simple answer was recorded and then transmitted to each of his GBC's and Temple Presidents who were in turn instructed to relay these instructions to the rest of Srila Prabhupada's disciples. This was a smooth and simple system that allowed for a very rapid dissemination of the process of pure devtional service by Srila Prabhupada.
His system emphasized the importance of local preaching and local management of his mission. Anything and anyone who disputed, rejected or attempted to intervene in Srila Prabhupada's system was deftly handled by HDG in such a manner that they did not create a permanent problem for Srila Prabhupada. I was personally aware of a number of situtations that reflected the strength and wisdom of Srila Prabhupada's simple arrangement.
Historically - the two most prominent cases of such management by Srila Prabhupada for me were his handling of Siddhaswarup Prabhu in Hawaii and the interference of HH Tamal Krsna Goswami in 1976 with the preaching work of the North American Temple Presidents. In the case of Siddhaswarup prabhu - he was basically remaining aloof, allowing his followers to follow whatever principles they liked and claining to be Acharya also. Srila Prabhupada came to Hawaii, presented the Truth to those who could grasp it - instructed them that if they indeed wish to "do as he said" then they should "do what the local Temple President said". Simple.
LOCAL TEMPLE PRESIDENT.
For those who could not - including Siddhaswarup - Srila Prabhupada one morning asked very nonchalantly - "Do they buy our books?"
"Yes they do Srila Prabhupada" Sudama Swami said.
"Do they pay cash?" SP then asked.
"Oh yes Srila Prabhupada" Sudama said.
"Then that's all right" Srila Prabhupada said. "They will improve in time. He said no more on it.
In the case of HH Tamal Krsna - he was guilty of doing what many "gurus" did in the first few years after Srila Prabhpada left us; interfered with the Local Temple President and his efforts to preach "LOCALLY".
His principal tactic? He would claim to be a much more highly advanced SPIRTUAL AUTHORITY, with a program far more important and pleasing to Srila Prabhupada than that which was going on in little Baltimore or Detroit or Upper No-where-ia!"
Srila Prabhupada bounced him to China..stating very simply "He is causing Fratricidal War in my mission and it must cease...today!"
HH Tamal Krsna Maharaja was exiled to China for the same behaviour that many gurus embraced heartily after Srila Prabhupada left. Some Temples were literally "GUTTED" of their staff - by gurus "disenchanted" with the lack of devotion by LOCAL TEMPLE PRESIDENTS who recognized them for what they actually were or were becoming and refused to go along.
I heartily agree that devotees should in time be guided and helped to come to the point where they can indeed take formal initiation. This is part and parcel with the teachings of Srila Prabhupada as they come from Srila Rupa Goswami. However this is not a difficult process. Those men who are authorized to act in this official capacity will meet the minimum qualifications set by our Srila Prabhupada and by acting on his behalf the newcomers are secure in the very simple system given us by Srila Prabhupada. It is not a complicated process. Those men so authorized should be qualified by their demonstrated application of Krsna Consciousness AND their enthusiastic support for the local preaching of the Lord's Holy name - in FULL cooperative spirit with the LOCAL TEMPLE PRESIDENT.
This is the simple and effective system given by Srila Prabhupada. When one says in reference to the authorized gurus in ISKCON "from devotee qualified to do so." these are the qualifications that need to be clarified. Not that the new men approaching for confirmation and initiation need to search out "Their" guru. This is not necessary. Srila Prabhupada's simple system will accomodate their need to solidify their committment wonderfully. The principal "qualification" of the authorized gurus in ISKCON is their unwillingness to interfere with the local preaching but in fact their FULL support for it.
The other point is your saying "When you say SS is a "serious preaching site" I laugh hard! Srila Prabhupada would NEVER approve."
To my knowledge NONE of the websites out there in cyber space - save and except the official news site for ISKCON and most importantly THE BBT SITE are "preaching" sites prabhu.
This site and others are merely "discussion" sites where devotees - such as yourself or myself or anyone can offer some realizations and/or thoughts on a particular issue.
Preaching means simple repeating the pure message of Bhagavatam and Gita. That is really just Srila Prabhupada - directly. That sound vibration comes DIRECTLY from the Spiritual platform and so its repetition is perfect and sufficient.
What goes on here or on the other sites that are out there - is just discussion or some news items only. They have some value - but precisely because all of these comments offered by any of us - can and will be accepted and rejected by many - they cannot be seen as preaching. Preaching is the pure OPINION of Lord Krsna - repeated by His cent per cent PURE DEVOTEES. That is all.
Anything else is questionable always.Posted by Sudama das @ 11/25/2005 06:34 AM PST
Rocana prabhu:
You stated:
"Where are Krsna-kirti or Danavir Goswami's commentaries on Rtvik-ism, and how it compares to my position?"
Krsna-kirti wrote a very long-winded position paper on rtvik-ism which according to him was meant to defeat the IRM once and for all. Krishna Kant wrote a detailed reply, to which Krsna-kirti never responded. As you have observed, this is his habit. When the debate becomes heated, he simply runs away.
For those who are interested in Krsna-kirti's position on ritvik here are links:
http://www.oldchakra.com/2002/02/10/posthumous.initiation/
http://www.iskconirm.com/Krishna_Kirti.htm
ys
Sudama dasPosted by Pandu das @ 11/24/2005 03:26 PM PST
My guess is that this anonymous person is Hari das, who was banned for promoting violence on another comment thread. Here again this anonymous person wants to fight. It sounds to me like the same person, or perhaps they're just cloned from the same mold.
It's ironic that Anon doesn't want to hear about freedom of speech, but yet he comes here give his opinion. Those who want to deny others' expression think themselves so great. I wonder if he has his eye on the role of guru himself. He claims to know the right path, the truth, and Srila Prabhupada's mind. It looks like he thinks we should all surrender to him and accept his words as equal to Krishna's.
The best part of his comment was the part where he said that was his final thought. If we see him post here several more times, also claiming it's his last word, then we can know for sure that it's Hari das.Posted by anon @ 11/24/2005 03:02 PM PST
Braja: With all due respect SS should be torn down and is an offense to ISKCON and the serious Vaisnavas. There! How's that? Perhaps we can meet on the Battlefied of Kuruksetra one last time. You don't know what you are talking about and I do not want to hear about freedom of speech. SS is a wolf in sheep's clothing. The weed coming as a flower, demonic in nature. That's a fact. The "sun staff stories and pretty pictures" are a ruse to disuade others from the real truth. What is that truth? That everyone coming to ISKCON should take formal initiation from devotee qualified to do so. This has been the system since time immorial and you can challenge that because of this and that unitl you are blue in the face. When you say SS is a "serious preaching site" I laugh hard! Srila Prabhupada would NEVER approve. Furthermore, It is not Danavir Maharaja who lodged the first stone but Mr. Rocana das goading the Maharaja into this debate only to denegrate his character. If I choose to remain anonymous that is my business. I have my reasons, You however, should crack open a Srimad-Bhagavtam and measure everything by "What Srila Prabhupada would say if he were personally present." This is my final thought on this rediculous debate.
Posted by Braja @ 11/24/2005 02:51 PM PST
Dear "Anon",
Are you so afraid to stand up for your opinion that you can't even list your name?
You apparently missed the fact that Danavir threw the first stone by "denigrating" Rocana and his news site. You think comments like "using Krishna as bait for a wicked hook" isn't a denigration? You think Danavir should just be allowed to lob rocks like that one, and get no response? Get real. You say one shouldn't "defame those who are trying to spread the holy names of the lord", but you obviously don't realize that this is a serious preaching site you're posting on right now.Posted by anon @ 11/24/2005 02:43 PM PST
I agree with Praghosa das and I think it is lamentable that a devotee of Krsna should find it necessary to denigrate someone like Danavir Maharaja who is sincerely executing the desires of his spiritual master HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Especially today, on his appearance day. I am not his diksa disciple. And I also believe if Srila Prabhupada were to appear today he would not be disappointed in Danavir Maharaja's efforts in trying to establish a Vedic college with RVC. Rocana's attacks against Danavir Swami are very serious allegations that must be challeneged and I consider it tantamount to "defamation of character." However, I am wondering what Srila Prabhupada's feelings would be about Rocana das's creating more illusion within an illusion from the supposedly "white tower" from which he sits, unseen, to defame those who are trying to spread the holy names of the lord.
Posted by praghosa das @ 11/24/2005 07:28 AM PST
Thought you all might appreciate the simplicity of Srila Prabhupada in the matter of "large scale quarrels over less important issues. The words "guru", "siksa/diksa", "ritvik", etc etc - in the end are just words that can contribute to the endless "debates" about "WHO IS IN CHARGE" or who is in control of the meager energy of the individual who comes for shelter at the lotus feet of Lord Krsna.
The following is found in the 1st Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam 1.15.25-26
jalaukasāḿ jale yadvan
mahānto 'danty aṇīyasaḥ
durbalān balino rājan
mahānto balino mithaḥ
evaḿ baliṣṭhair yadubhir
mahadbhir itarān vibhuḥ
yadūn yadubhir anyonyaḿ
bhū-bhārān sañjahāra ha
TRANSLATION
O King, as in the ocean the bigger and stronger aquatics swallow up the smaller and weaker ones, so also the Supreme Personality of Godhead, to lighten the burden of the earth, has engaged the stronger Yadu to kill the weaker, and the bigger Yadu to kill the smaller.
PURPORT
"In the material world the struggle for existence and survival of the fittest are laws because in the material world there is disparity between conditioned souls due to everyone's desire to lord it over the material resources. This very mentality of lording it over the material nature is the root cause of conditioned life. And to give facility to such imitation lords, the illusory energy of the Lord has created a disparity between conditioned living beings by creating the stronger and the weaker in every species of life. The mentality of lording it over the material nature and the creation has naturally created a disparity and therefore the law of struggle for existence. In the spiritual world there is no such disparity, nor is there such a struggle for existence. In the spiritual world there is no struggle for existence because everyone there exists eternally. There is no disparity because everyone wants to render service to the Supreme Lord, and no one wants to imitate the Lord in becoming the beneficiary. The Lord, being creator of everything, including the living beings, factually is the proprietor and enjoyer of everything that be, but in the material world, by the spell of māyā, or illusion, this eternal relation with the Supreme Personality of Godhead is forgotten, and so the living being is conditioned under the law of struggle for existence and survival of the fittest."
Though everyone is loathe to admit it, this "debate" is all about who is the "Absolute" surrogate contoller, enjoyer and best friend of the aspiring devotee.
Both sides of the arguments attempt to coerce the individual towards their point of view. However, as all action is provoked by a sense that "what IS, is less desireable than what ought be" - this perception of Who is indeed is MY absolute final arbiter in the matter of guru - will remain a matter of personal realization and conscience.
There will be those men who really have no sense of dependence upon the individual who confirms their committment to Srila Prabhupada's instructions. They will see this man as instrumental as a simple authorized official who is executing a particular function on behalf of Srila Prabhupada. These men - who prefer to accept Srila Prabhupada and his guidance through his books and the local devotees who have nurtured his Krsna Consciousness from day one - should not be harrassed by anyone. In fact such "harrassment" will in the end only seem foolish and self interested to these men.
However - those devotees who view the authorized "appointees" as their destined "Sat Guru" - will not renounce their vision simply because of the protest towards such reverence and affection by others.
This debate is the eternal conflict that is described in the above mentioned verse in SB.
"In the spiritual world there is no struggle for existence because everyone there exists eternally. There is no disparity because everyone wants to render service to the Supreme Lord, and no one wants to imitate the Lord in becoming the beneficiary. The Lord, being creator of everything, including the living beings, factually is the proprietor and enjoyer of everything that be, but in the material world, by the spell of māyā, or illusion, this eternal relation with the Supreme Personality of Godhead is forgotten, and so the living being is conditioned under the law of struggle for existence and survival of the fittest."
One who claims to be "Guru" demands by either inference or command - that HE is the ABSOLUTE master of his senses and incapable of ever succumbing to the allure of the Lord's External energy - on account of his being 100% captivated by the full measure of the Lord's Internal Potency. This is what is being claimed by the Guru. Anyone who claims to be The Acharya or Guru admits to this claim. Srila Prabhupada did not hesitate to assert this. He scoffed at those who challenged his being so confidently secure in his realization of the Divine Couple.
When he left this world - he did appoint 11 men to act on his behalf and loyally and confidentally represent his being the full represtative and current link to our unblemished Disciplic Succession. This appointment was not a declaration of their now automatically being so secure in their Direct Realization of the full meausure of the Divine Couple. Nor was he instructing us to represent them as such to the general public. Nor was instructing the next generation to artificially see them as such either.
Srila Prabhupada placed HIS vysasana in the middle of every ISKCON temple, instructed us to conduct daily Guru Puja and through him worship Vyasa Deva and Lord Krsna as the original Guru. He istructed us to "hold class" in the moring and evening using HIS translations of Srimad Bhagavatam and Bhagavad Gita for the next 10,000 years! In addtion to these simple actions - we were instructed to dedicate our lives to following Srila Bhaktissiddhanta Saraswati's personal mandate to him "If you EVER get money, PRINT BOOKS!" Those books were to be Srila Prabhupada's recoreded "devotional ecstacies" - The Bhaktivedanta Purports to Srimad Bhagavatam, Bhagavad Gita and Chaitanya Charitamrita. This was what we were doing - daily till he left us and he wished that this simple, simple, simple, simple, simple simple simple simple "system" remain intact and confidentally promoted by his loyal loving disciples - for the next 10,000 years.
Now this debate or "war" is wasteful. Like the conflict the sprouted between India and
China in 1962. Previously these two countries lived side by side in harmony - but the influence of Kali Yuga wormed its way in between these two parties suddenly looked upon eachother as impediments.
Danivir Maharaja can make this claim or that claim about his position and/or realization. He can claim it "on behalf of this one or that one". Or he can agree with the claims made by his or other's followers. This is not that relevant to the overall dissemination of the Holy Name.
Similarly - Rocan Prabhu can object to his claims or the claims of others...it amounts to noise only from both sides.
What really matters is action; not words.
All parties should dedicate themselves to the distribution of Srila Prabhupada's books and the Holy Name. Let the men who seek self realization act upon what they see as the Truth as to WHO is fully responsible for their moving from the condition of ignorance to the positon of Truth.
Krsna states in BG 4:34 that we must seek out the self realized soul and inquire from him. This is fully possible - by means of Srila Prabhupada - directly - through his books and the simple system he left us to act upon all we discover in his books. But there will be those who choose to accept the men authorized to initiate as their fully realized ABSOLUTE arbiter of the instructions found in Srila Prabhupada's books.
In the end - both groups will be faced with the need to dive deeply into the chanting of the Holy Name in the company of the Lord's servants in order to sustain their commitment to the process of devotional service.
Faith is personal. Its acquisition is neither mechanical nor can it be artificially imposed. Just as Krsna Consciousness is NOT an artificial "imposition" upon the mind - so too is our faith in the Spiritual Master. This faith in WHO is our final arbiter and via media to Lord Chaitanya cannot be forced upon us. It must spring from our own conviction. Otherwise it will suffocate and die.
This is most undesirable.
All devotees should be guided in the system left us by Srila Prabhupada yet left to understand that they are fully free to accept the authorized representives of our Acharya Srila Prabhupada as their Absolute Arbiter or GURU if that is indeed how they view their contribution to their faith and enthusiasm.
This will help to eliminate irresponsible men from prematurely posing as more realized and thus more secure than they actually are. It will also help to prevent men from accepting them as such without recognizing their own responsibility in the matter as well.
And it will also allow those who are comfortable with Srila Prabhupada's simple system to also work - side by side - with the above mentioned men and women - without any more unnecessary "struggle" as the above mentioned verse describes our miserable condition here. We can all enjoy the simple atmosphere of the spiritual world as it is described above:
"There is no disparity because everyone wants to render service to the Supreme Lord, and no one wants to imitate the Lord in becoming the beneficiary."
Now of course - as usual - these comments will produce more "conflict" no doubt as advocates for both parties seek to counter my statements with their conclusions for "WHY Praghosa couldn't possibly be right".
To them I will say this:
It is not debatable since what I describe is merely the description of what IS. It is what is ACTUALLY going on in Srila Prabhupada's mission today and really always has been. I have only described reality.
Reality is "A man's mind changed against his will - is of the same opinion still".
That is all.
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