Bhagavad Gita 14.19

Purport

By the instruction of a bona fide spiritual master, a living entity can know of his spiritual position, his material body, his senses, how he is entrapped, and how he is under the spell of the material modes of nature. He is helpless, being in the grip of these modes, but when he can see his real position, then he can attain to the transcendental platform, having the scope for spiritual life. Actually, the living entity is not the performer of different activities. He is forced to act because he is situated in a particular type of body, conducted by some particular mode of material nature. Unless one has the help of spiritual authority, he cannot understand in what position he is actually situated.

Bhagavad Gita 18.61

The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy.

PURPORT

Arjuna was not the supreme knower, and his decision to fight or not to fight was confined to his limited discretion. Lord Krsna instructed that the individual is not all in all. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, or He Himself, Krsna, the localized Supersoul, sits in the heart directing the living being. After changing bodies, the living entity forgets his past deeds, but the Supersoul, as the knower of the past, present and future, remains the witness of all his activities. Therefore all the activities of living entities are directed by this Supersoul. The living entity gets what he deserves and is carried by the material body which is created in the material energy under the direction of the Supersoul. As soon as a living entity is placed in a particular type of body, he has to work under the spell of that bodily situation. A person seated in a high-speed motorcar goes faster than one seated in a slower car, though the living entities, the drivers, may be the same. Similarly, by the order of the Supreme Soul, material nature fashions a particular type of body to a particular type of living entity to work according to his past desires. The living entity is not independent. One should not think himself independent of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The individual is always under His control.

We do not lift a finger - that we are not thinking to improve an existing condition. All action is preceded by the perception, real or imagined that our next action will yield an improvement of our present circumstances - no matter how slight

If someone cannot understand my inserting the quotes dealing with the heart, what can be done. I included them only to emphasize how our desire to meet our needs - whatever they may be - initates in the heart and must be guided by "guided" intellgence - Krsna's Pure devotee - in order achieve the goal of "SELF realization".

It was said by one poet Jacques Benigne Bossuel:

"The heart has reasons that reason does not understand."

Jacques Benigne Bossuel

This is also a very poignant comment about the impetus of love:

"Love is not blind -- it simply enables one to see things others fail to see."

How about this as well from the poet Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"And now here is my secret, a very simple secret; it is only with the heart that one can see rightly, what is essential is invisible to the eye."

Even those whom you might suggest have no heart - are indeed acting to secure their own interest - at every single moment.

Posted by Robot Disciple @ 12/15/2005 09:58 PM PST

All Glories to my Guru.

I am his dearest devotee.

He often wonders out loud

What he'd do without me.

I serve my Guru Maharaj

with tender loving care

despite the fact that he treats me

as If I'm not even there.

But he says thats just my karma

and he's a pure devotee

and if I want to eat tonight

I guess I'll just agree.

crying.

Posted by Robot Guru @ 12/15/2005 09:48 PM PST

All glories to my self.

I am your Guru.

Though I pretend you are mine.

Varnashrama Dharma?

Who has the time?

We are all Vaisnavas

transcendental and sublime

ksyatria vaisya sudra

those labels hurt my mind!

How can I preach to you
every day and all the time?

If I need to keep a ledger book
and wipe my own behind?

your humblest meekest servant,

the Robot Guru

Posted by praghosa das @ 12/15/2005 07:02 PM PST

Uttama prabhu,
Thank you for your comments.

As I said in my comments "I include these quotes only to highlight the influence of the compelling force of "The Heart" and for no other reason."

Your comment that some devotee has only a brain and no heart is not accurate, though perhaps some hearts are steel framed or resistant to the quality of empathy that develops in the heart of the aspiring devotee. But no living entity ever ceases to act in their own interest - ever. However this sense of self interest can take on different forms and will naturally include others as our circle of connections in this world increases or decreases. This is just elementary stuff. Easy to see.

This world is nothing more than a huge market. Even the various species of life were essentially "purchased" by each living being residing in their particular body - with the results of their actions and their concomitant mental conditions. This is all based upon desire. Srila Prabhupada states in the Bhagavad Gita that desire is the concomitant factor or feature of the living being. We do not lift a finger - that we are not thinking to improve an existing condition. All action is preceded by the perception, real or imagined that our next action will yield an improvement of our present circumstances - no matter how slight. Even an insignificant fidget in a chair - is in reality an effort to restore our condition of comfort that was momentarily surrendered to discomfort.

Think of the various "vegas" or pushings we endure that are described by Srila Rupa Gosvami in the Nectar of Instruction. The attempt to appease these various "pushings" consumes the every single second of the day of a normal living entity in this material world. Krsna consciousness is the redirection of this attempt at improving our present situation from what it is - TO WHAT IT COULD BE. This endeavor was previously spent or centered upon sense gratification - subtle and gross. Once we are awakened to the existence of Lord Krsan and His actual position as the source of and "master" of our senses - then under the direction of His pure devotee we can revive our original Krsna Consciousness and act in our TRUE SELF INTEREST which is only possible when we take exclusive delight in pleasing the senses of Lord Krsna.

Teaching our children and grandchildren this science is our duty Mother Hari Kirtan; at least we are meant to give it our best shot! I hope that answers your question.

If someone cannot understand my inserting the quotes dealing with the heart, what can be done. I included them only to emphasize how our desire to meet our needs - whatever they may be - initates in the heart and must be guided by "guided" intellgence - Krsna's Pure devotee - in order achieve the goal of "SELF realization". Krsna consciousness is first and last about SELF realization. There will come a time Srila Prabhupada said when we will be obliged to fly our own airplane. Geese fly together - but simultaneously - alone. That is our position.

My answer to BB was dealing with his particular questions. My answer deals with assisting any new man with approaching Krsna Consciousness first from the perspective of meeting his eternal need to revive HIS relationship with Lord Krsna; not dealing with the knowledge that others may or may not have fallen from the path - in one way or the other. This was the exclusive reason for my offering anything about - desire or the "heart".

Even those whom you might suggest have no heart - are indeed acting to secure their own interest - at every single moment. The question will always present itself: is their actions or intentions something I would wish to replicate? Is their action or idea something I could share or embrace or follow?

Is it in my real long term interest?

I hope that is all right.

Praghosa

Posted by praghosa das @ 12/15/2005 06:28 PM PST

Mother Hari Kirtan;

You are asking me a question. On whose behalf? Are you attempting to satisfy someone who inquired of you "What is Praghosa prabhu saying?" or is that you want to know or understand me better?

YS Praghosa das

Posted by shiva das @ 12/15/2005 04:12 PM PST

Uttama there is a difference between the sentiment of rasa and sentimentalism displayed by neophytes and bogus spiritualists and sahajiyas in the garb of devotees of God. They give themselves away by their reliance on sentimanalism, their rejection of the philosophical conclusions of the acaryas and by their neophyte behavior.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 7.102

The Vaiṣṇavas are by far the greatest philosophers in the world, and the greatest among them was Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī Prabhu, whose philosophy was again presented less than four hundred years later by Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura Mahārāja. Therefore one must know very well that Vaiṣṇava philosophers are not sentimentalists or cheap devotees like the sahajiyās. All the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas were vastly learned scholars who understood Vedānta philosophy fully, for unless one knows Vedānta philosophy he cannot be an ācārya. To be accepted as an ācārya among Indian transcendentalists who follow the Vedic principles, one must become a vastly learned scholar in Vedānta philosophy, either by studying it or hearing it.

Bhakti develops in pursuance of Vedānta philosophy. This is stated in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (1.2.12):

tac chraddadhānā munayo jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā

paśyanty ātmani cātmānaḿ bhaktyā śruta-gṛhītayā

The words bhaktyā śruta-gṛhītayā in this verse are very important, for they indicate that bhakti must be based upon the philosophy of the Upaniṣads and Vedānta-sūtra. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī said

śruti-smṛti-purāṇādi-pañcarātra-vidhiḿ vinā

aikāntikī harer bhaktir utpātāyaiva kalpate

[BRS 1.2.101]

"Devotional service performed without reference to the Vedas, Purāṇas, Pañcarātras, etc., must be considered sentimentalism, and it causes nothing but disturbance to society." There are different grades of Vaiṣṇavas (kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī and uttama-adhikārī), but to be a madhyama-adhikārī preacher one must be a learned scholar in the Vedānta-sūtra and other Vedic literatures because when bhakti-yoga develops on the basis of Vedānta philosophy it is factual and steady. In this connection we may quote the translation and purport of the verse mentioned above (Bhāg. 1.2.12):

Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.12

tac chraddadhana munayo
jnana-vairagya-yuktaya
pasyanty atmani catmanam
bhaktya sruta-grhitaya

The seriously inquisitive student or sage, well equipped with knowledge and detachment, realizes that Absolute Truth by rendering devotional service in terms of what he has heard from the Vedānta-śruti.

PURPORT

The Absolute Truth is realized in full by the process of devotional service to the Lord, Vāsudeva, or the Personality of Godhead, who is the full-fledged Absolute Truth. Brahman is His transcendental bodily effulgence, and Paramātmā is His partial representation. As such, Brahman or Paramātmā realization of the Absolute Truth is but a partial realization. There are four different types of human beings — the karmīs, the jñānīs, the yogīs and the devotees. The karmīs are materialistic, whereas the other three are transcendental. The first-class transcendentalists are the devotees who have realized the Supreme Person. The second-class transcendentalists are those who have partially realized the plenary portion of the absolute person. And the third-class transcendentalists are those who have barely realized the spiritual focus of the absolute person. As stated in the Bhagavad-gītā and other Vedic literatures, the Supreme Person is realized by devotional service which is backed by full knowledge and detachment from material association. We have already discussed the point that devotional service is followed by knowledge and detachment from material association. As Brahman and Paramātmā realization are imperfect realizations of the Absolute Truth, so the means of realizing Brahman and Paramātmā, i.e., the paths of jñāna and yoga, are also imperfect means of realizing the Absolute Truth. Devotional service which is based on the foreground of full knowledge combined with detachment from material association, and which is fixed by dint of the aural reception of the Vedānta-śruti, is the only perfect method by which the seriously inquisitive student can realize the Absolute Truth. Devotional service is not, therefore, meant for the less intelligent class of transcendentalists.

Posted by Bhakta Ray @ 12/15/2005 02:32 PM PST

Sri Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was not a neophyte. On the contrary he was a direct incarnation of Krsna Himself. He could experience devotional ecstasies because he was pure and unalloyed without Maya, mental concoctions.
This is precisely why the neophyte cannot and should not aspire to the intimate rasas of devotional lila. He should learn submissively from the bona fide guru and serve him.

"The mind cannot be pure, just as a fossil cannot produce life. Similarly, the mind cannot produce sraddha, divine faith. Sraddha is original and fundamental. When the Supreme Lord appears in the heart, the mind vanishes. Reality is just the opposite of speculation. Darkness cannot produce light; light comes and darkness vanishes. Truth appears when pure consciousness emerges and mental speculation vanishes. The mind is concerned with misconception. It is an element of the apara-sakti, the inferior potency. That potency is both subtle and gross. Earth, water, fire, air and ether are gross manifestations; mind, intelligence and ego are subtle. But they're all material.

The soul is transcendental. Svarupa-sakti, or the Lord's personal potency, bhajana, or divine service, and Goloka-Vaikuntha are all supra-mundane and transcendental. They are beyond the soul, not on the denser realm where the mind is located. Properly speaking, purity or impurity cannot be attributed to the mind. If we do, everything will be misunderstood. The mind emerges from the false ego and it is imbued with the tendency to exploit. "
http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/follow-the-angels/angels-91-110.html

Posted by Uttama @ 12/15/2005 02:13 PM PST

Haribol Siva,

You said that sentimentalism is for neophytes when it comes to God consciousness. People without experience and education tend to rely on sentimentalism when it comes to spirituality.

In some of Lord Caitanya's more confidental pastimes, He displays great sentimental feelings in the mood of Srimati Radharani. Is He a neophyte?

Posted by shiva das @ 12/15/2005 01:26 PM PST

BB das:

I just think some people who post here and many devotees in general are spiritual frauds out to seek adulation and exploit others in their so called devotional sentiments.

So "crack up" laughing at your/their childish antics, is more like it ;)

Posted by bb das @ 12/15/2005 12:59 PM PST

Wow! It looks like Sivaji is starting to crack.

With all that has been said against him and his mental speculative ideas and "vision" which is NOT the Vision of His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada he stoops to defending his false ego.

Interesting isn't it...?

bb das

Posted by shiva das @ 12/15/2005 12:36 PM PST

Hi Uttama

You wrote:

Nice things about the heart, but be careful! Siva does not seem to have a heart, only a brain. He may have something to say about following your heart.

The dirty things in the heart of a conditioned soul are the root cause of all troubles for him. A conditioned soul is surrounded by the manifold miseries of material existence, but on account of his gross ignorance he is unable to remove the troubles due to dirty things in the heart, accumulated during the long prison life in the material world. He is actually meant to serve the will of the Supreme Lord, but on account of the dirty things in the heart, he likes to serve his concocted desires. These desires, instead of giving him any peace of mind, create new problems and thus bind him to the cycle of repeated birth and death. These dirty things of fruitive work and empiric philosophy can be removed only by association with the Supreme Lord.(Bhag. 2.1.22)

Posted by Hari Kirtan d.d. @ 12/15/2005 12:33 PM PST

Dear Praghosa dasa,

Would you be so kind to explain what exactly is the self interest you are following? And since you are mentioning children, and I am a grandmother, I would be very interested to learn, which are the values you are intending to teach to your children with the stance you are taking?

- Hare Krsna. Your servant, Hari Kirtan d.d.

Posted by Balarama @ 12/15/2005 12:17 PM PST

If I only had a Heart....?

If I only had a Brain....?

Just musing sorry...

Hari Bol!

Posted by Uttama @ 12/15/2005 11:42 AM PST

Haribol, Praghosa Prabhu.
Nice things about the heart, but be careful! Siva does not seem to have a heart, only a brain. He may have something to say about following your heart.

Posted by praghosa das @ 12/15/2005 10:36 AM PST

Dear BB das
This is an understandable question prabhu. One that does manifest and take on a degree of importance from time to to time.

However in raising the particular issue I have been attempting to prod my young friend Mark with, I am trying to keep the focus upon Srila Prabhupada's direct guidance and his instructions in their practical application.

Your question deals with practically dealing with the multifarious misapplication of these various instructions and/or the misrepresentation of his general guidance found in his books.

I do not contest any of the History of Malfeasance that has accompanied the evolution of Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON mission. I lived through most of it; and am living through and raising my children within the framework of our present day and all that this implies as well.

However - all actions are preceded by thinking and more importantly FEELING. In the sales world it is sometimes said "No one buys using logic and reason. They buy under the influence of emotion and then only later - employ their logic and reason to justify their purchase". So FEELING - DESIRE is very important.

It was said by one poet Jacques Benigne Bossuel:

"The heart has reasons that reason does not understand."
Jacques Benigne Bossuel

This is also a very poignant comment about the impetus of love:

"Love is not blind -- it simply enables one to see things others fail to see."

How about this as well from the poet Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"And now here is my secret, a very simple secret; it is only with the heart that one can see rightly, what is essential is invisible to the eye."

I include these quotes only to highlight the influence of the compelling force of "The Heart" and for no other reason.

As we awaken to our plight here - either spontaneously - or with the prodding of the pure devotees pushing us we THINK of or consider our situation. We require guidance to correctly assess our situation and then if we are blessed and fortunate - we come into contact with the Lord's devotees. They then reveal to us our TRUE PLIGHT and our TRUE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILTY in creating this "plight" and our personal capacity to take hold of the means to reverse the effects of our previous errant choices that produced our "PLIGHT" to begin with. With their merciful inspiration and intercession - we can become INFUSED - now through the HEART - with the needed conviction or faith (adau sraddha) and then and we develop the DESIRE(HEART)to take to the process of acting under the directions of the Spiritual Representative of Lord Krsna.

In the beginning we will naturally come to Krsna Consciousness acting fully in our own self interest. This is the foundation of intelligent action. It never ceases. This acting in our own self interest is synonomous with being alive.Even when we appear to act for others or on behalf of others we are doing so because we recognize it to be in our best interest for some reason to do so. The more Krsna Conscious we are - the more we will see acting for myself or others correctly, is just an outgrowth of acting for Krsna under the careful guidance of Lord Krsna's pure devotees - which is also really acting for my own "best interest".

So when you are explaining the opportunity inherently there in taking shelter again of our Dearmost Friend Lord Krsna to a newcomer - it is important to understand how to properly explain any irregularities or inconsistencies and/or deviations, gross or subtle that have manifest from time to time.

However, prior to your dealing with that - YOU must know what are Srila Prabhupada's actual instructions - both the general and the specific - that will fully prevent any of the mistakes of others to discourage or dissuade the aspiring candidate for pure love of Lord Krsna from diving into the samkirtan mission of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu full force.

We must know exactly what Srila Prabhupada taught us and instructed us - so that no matter what happens to others' enthusiasm and/or faith in the process given by our Acharya - our determination will be secure in the rock solid foundation of Srila Prabhupada's gift - his Bhaktivedanta Purports and his direct orders.

I am not saying nor have I ever said - that even now today - in December of 2005 - ISKCON is presenting this opportunity perfectly to the newcomers. I have said they have it about 90% correct in action. They lack the courage or the faith to refer to these actions with the correct termininolgy and though someone could argue that terminology is not that important - I affirm that it is. Words are not what we want them to mean. They have a standard, accepted meaning and we are not at liberty to misuse, or abuse that. If we do, we suffer the consequences.

Your request I will assume is sincere. You ask:

1. "What and when should we tell the new "stoked up" person who inquires about the History and present status of Bogus Gurus in Iskcon and the scandals they represent past and present?"

What should we tell them?

As much or as little as is needed to illustrate all that is involved in helping them serve their own spiritual self interest Srila Prabhupada said his program was to offer THE REAL THING - not preach against the bogus. Making that information the subject matter for comprehensive consideration may or may not be of any merit whatsoever.

Once a new man actually understands what Srila Prabhupada taught and what his actual choices are in all matters - if he is intelligent and mindful of his best interest - the past transgressions of anyone - will never prevent him from taking full advantage of Srila Prabhupada's merciful guidance - no matter what anyone is doing or did or did not do - in the past.

Your second question:

2. "If we decide to explain, one will be asked to leave the temple. What should we do under such a very realistic situation?"

I do not have such an experience. However that is not to say that you do not and if that is so - it should be addressed and dealt with. If yours or anyone's explanation for the past - is not true and accurate - then of course a competent and responsible Temple President is duty bound to correct the misrepresentation of history. If someone insists upon pushing false information - then they are duty bound to act a man and go their separate way.

However if no inaccurate depiction is being pushed and the past is properly and CONSTRUCTIVELY being represented - all in the interest of furthering the distribution of the Holy Name and Srila Prabhupada's books jthen I am certain that Krsna will help everyone to find their place. Nothing can check bonafide samkirtan. Nothing and no one. This is science prabhu.

Krsna is real and He is in charge. No one else.

So tell me - where and how did you come to feel this was your case and I will try to assist you in this matter.

I hope this answer is satsifactory prabhu. If I have left something unclear or unhelpful then let me know and I will be more than happy to offer you whatever assistance I can in our mutual effort to serve the wonderful mission of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada

Posted by Mark @ 12/15/2005 10:12 AM PST

Hari Bol!

Not so fast buster! I am addressing my new friend Praghosa Dasa. (anyone who calls me friend as much has he has must be my friend right?)

Praghosa Dasa's statement:

I can of course offer what Srila Prabhupada did in fact provide. I have resisted that for one reason only. My friend Mark basically challenged my statement asserting that his thesis does in fact offer this.

I never asserted that Rocana Dasa's thesis "Sampradaya Acharya" offers the entire sum and substance of what Srila Prabhupada's instructions were as to how come up with solutions to the problems any person with a heart does know there to be in Iskcon.

I simply questioned your absolute dismissal of his thesis as worthless, your lack of offering what you now say "of course you can provide", and pointed out clearly that Rocana was requesting that others explore the issues more deeply by saying, quote,

"I welcome the opportunity to explore these issues more deeply. It will require the work of others far more spiritually elevated than I to present to the world the unalloyed version of Srila Prabhupada’s purpose and pastimes. I sincerely pray that I can make a small contribution or play a part in establishing this truth."

So for all YOUR hemming and hawing, and criticisms, now you admit all along that you have had the perfect solution, but have been withholding such, which could save all the victims of Terror in Iskcon, just because I challenged your blanket criticism of Rocana's attempt.

That is despicable behavior. I am so angry I am beside myself.

I have decided that you actually exemplify and epitomize the problems withing Iskcon. If you were so tight with the entirety of Srila Prabhupada's instructions, then why the hell aren't you guiding his ship and preventing all these tradgedies, now that we know they were and have been happening even when our Lord and Master was on the planet.

And who are you to withhold such from anyone?

You better have a good answer, or better yet, just humbly apologize for your incredible offense. If you sabotage one more honest discussion here, it will not bode well for you, for I will feverishly pray for some direct divine intervention on behalf of all vicitims everywhere that you be rendered incapable of perpetrating such acts ever again.

GRRRRRRRRR.

Mark

Posted by bb das @ 12/15/2005 08:16 AM PST

Pragosh Prabhu,

I have a question (simple) for you, if you don't mind?

What and when should we tell the new "stoked up" person who inquires about the History and present status of Bogus Gurus in Iskcon and the scandals they represent past and present?

If we decide to explain, one will be asked to leave the temple. What should we do under such a very realistic situation?

Thank you.

ys
bb das

Posted by praghosa das @ 12/15/2005 07:50 AM PST

Mark good job. Great answer to a very very simple question.

As much as you blather on and on - you demonstrate that you haven't a clue as to why I would ask this question of you or you simply do not have the answers given by HDG or you do, but reject them as irrelevant.

Thanks once again for am easy job left undone.

Shiva - if I don't pull the plug on this it could go on forever.

You write "Rocana Das's thesis is a commentary on how he views Srila Prabhupada's teachings can be successfully implemented and also he gives a critique of where he thinks Iskcon has gone wrong."

I have consistently emphasized that his thesis does not do that. It is a dead end because he does not represent Srila Prabhupada's instructions. His thesis is every bit as devoid of Srila Prabhupada's clear simple formula as was some of the most "fantastic" writing of HH Bhaktitirtha swami. Srila Prabhupda's instructions are not there. In fact - they are "CONSIPICUOUS BY THEIR ABSENCE". Fixing the problems that are there or have been there in ISKCON must represent Srila Prabhupada's direct orders. If they do not - but only skirt around them - they are essentially useless.

I have been pushing my friend Mark to provide me Srila Prabhupada's answers to a simple question. I emphasize that this question is absolutely relevant to everything Rocan has concluded and to everything an aspiring man might ask after gaining access to Srila Prabhupada's Bhaktivedantna Purports.

Evidentally Mark is not familiar with Srila Prabhupada's teachings in this regard. My asking the question does have a purpose; not the purpose that is conjured by My friend Mark but it does have a purpose. Mark's inability to provide these ridiculously simple answers demonstrates two important aspects to what I am trying to illustrate:

1. Knowledge of and Faith in the simple system Srila Prabhupada gave us for acting upon his instructions has been terribly eroded over the last 25 years. Thus there are many men who step forward with the unauthorized "solutions" - all in the name of helping or fixing all the problems they KNOW must be there. My simple claim is that Rocan prabhus thesis is another species of this. I am not criticizing Rocan prabhu personally. I have never once done this. I am simply disagreeing with him. I can of course offer what Srila Prabhupada did in fact provide. I have resisted that for one reason only. My friend Mark basically challenged my statement asserting that his thesis does in fact offer this.

So I inquired - really? So then show me. Pretend I am THAT new man and offer me the needed counsel and advice that reflects IN TOTAL the direct God Given instructions of our Founder Acharya. That's when hemming and hawing started and it has continued ad nausem. Now you want to join in too with this?

I wish you all success in your service to Srila Prabhupada and Lord Chaitanya. Perhaps we will get the opportunity to serve together one day.

Hare Krsna

Posted by Bhakta Ray @ 12/15/2005 05:18 AM PST

Rocan Prabhu is not been weighing in on this blog. Also I've emailed him and he has not responded. I was a temple devotee in Canada where he was temple president pre-samadhi. At the time, he was a gentle, intelligent and loyal disciple of Srila Prabhupada. I am sure his opinions are based on nothing more than his dedication to the spiritual master. He is not the only Prabhupada disciple who is, to say the least, disgusted with the GBC. It has treated Prabhupada disiples very shabbily.
My hunch, no my insight, is that they are threatened. Even I seem to be threatening in New Dwarka because I have a history there that goes back before Prabhupada samadhi. Those with sufficient history know where the bodies are buried, know all the sordid and shocking details. This makes some of the senior disciples who have opted for GBC very uncomfortable because they know there are some devotees they just can't fool.

But purity is the force. GBC is the head not the heart of ISCKON and the Vedas say the soul lives in the heart. Just as a bona fide acarya is self-effulgent, so a bogus acarya well betray himself, will fall down in ways that are obvious to those who are listening to sadhu, sastra and caitya guru.
For instance there is a diksa guru presently at New Dwarka who was saying that when you chant Hare Krsna offensively you're not really chanting the Mahamantra, but some mundane sound. This is bogus and offensive. I questioned this with another senior devotee and wouldnt ya know it, in the days following, the guru retracts the statement without ever having admitted to it.
I must admit the puja to Srila Prabhupada is full of bhakti, honor and respect.
Prabhupada did not say that a guru HAD to be uttama-adhikari. He just said that such a guru cannot accept disciples more advanced than himself. This makes perfect sense. If somebody is going to lead me back to Godhead, I, for one, prefer that he's been there, has achieved moksa.

Posted by Mark @ 12/14/2005 07:29 PM PST

Dear Bhakta Ray,

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon!

You raise some excellent points as grist for this discussion mill.

You say,

If am to understand that the Rocan faction, as does the IRM, believes that any association with ISKCON is an implicit offense to Srila Prabhupada, that in fact all ISKCON devotees are committing by that fact an elephant offense, I must object.

I believe that the consensus is that there are victims of the poor policies implemented by the so called leaders. There are devotees who may live in an Iskcon temple who are caught in the middle, and are aware of this, and in their hearts are trying to figure out a way to rectify the situation. That is no offense. It may not be the wisest and most efficient way to make change in the face of such overwhelming odds. It may involve some moments of weakness where they feel they need to compromise in the presence of a tyrant so they don't lose shelter and other necessities they think might only be available to them "inside Iskcon". Or justify those moments by seeing that in order to execute their eventual plan of overthrow they need to buy their time. As long as they are struggling with this inside, they are sincere and commit no offense to me or anyone else who really cares that they ultimately succeed.

Perhaps a small offense against their own soul and Krishna, but we all do that until we are pure devotees.

Rocana Dasa does seem to believe that supporting the charlatans in any way other than complete neglect through abandonment and seeking justice outside of the "brick and mortar" portion of Iskcon is just gradually leading to a more entrenched mundane religious system being established by virtue of the true desire of some of the rascals at the top.

You say..

"Assuming that ISKCON reduces to its administration is itself a material conception. GBC is not synonomous with ISKCON."

I agree.

"It is fallacious to indict every member of a movement for the misdeeds of its management."

I hope I showed how most of the arguements being made here are not supporting such an indictment to the extent that members accept there is a problem and do not deny it.

You also say,

"One should not mistake the external structure however misconceived with the internal spiritual life of the movement."

This is something that Srila Prabhupada often pointed out saying such things as, "if it becomes a burden, we leave the temples and the management behind.

However, as Shiva Dasa pointed out, Srila Prabhupada did say that Iskcon would last for 10,000 years provided it remains uncontaminated.

I have struggled with the reality that to a very large degree, the state of an institution does reflect the internal spiritual life of the members. If I hadn't found such wise association scattered around the globe through the internet medium, I might have lost hope. If the institution gets so horrendous and misconcieved at the managerial executive level, the only thing left may be that some people take the spirit with them, run away, and try again, and invite any refugees to a new safe haven. I don't count that out as a possibility do you?

then you end with,

"Even though it's not a democracy, the Paramisvara and the Acarya can still effect change from within simply by the force of the purity of its members."

How to get the pure members to positions of power and influence then is the key. I can't read that any other way than Paramisvara and Sri Acharyadeva arranging a coup de tat.

Hoping for the best and working toward it, I am your servant,

Mark

Posted by Anon @ 12/14/2005 07:10 PM PST

This whoile blog is getting out of hand and appears to be dominated by a vert few. It is tiresome now and there is nothing Rocana can do to stop it. I've locked horns with him before. He likes to set fires and watch them burn. It's a shame. Mark, my advice to you if you are so prolific and passionate is to jump on the bandwagon which is ISKCON and do some serious preaching. I'll be right there with you very soon. I suggest all the others also follow suit. Now really, do you think Srila Prabhupada would approve of the verbiage being laid out here notwithstanding endless quotes from sastra? Come on! Let's get with the program. death is coming sooner than we think. That's my final thoughts on this. Hare Krsna!

Posted by Mark @ 12/14/2005 06:57 PM PST

Hari Bol!

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

This gives me no pleasure, but I do this voluntarily, of my own free will, though once again, I FEEL my hand is forced.

Whoever the person is who is referring to himself in the third person as Praghosa has asked...

"Now as much as I appreciate your description of your daily activities might it be possible that you take a moment and offer me a legitimate answer that will address MY need?"

So to clarify, you have a need to hear me pretend I am talking to an illusory person, fabricated in your mind, and address their "needs" as a "stoked" new man with this or that imaginary level of exposure to Srila Prabhupada's books.

I would ask you why the burning need? And what does this need have at all to do with my summary exposure and dismissal of your unfounded criticisms of Rocana Dasa, your presumptions as to his conclusive motives for creating a website, your so called absolute suggestions, and your holier than thou attitude in general?

You can answer that question, and should because since it is not part of the debate about the issues at hand, I should know what is the nature of your emergency need which would bring us off topic. Especially to go into a hypothetical realm!!!

And since as you say, I am so good at this, I will venture to offer what I think the real reason is, so that those readers who don't trust a person who refers to himself in the third person, and demeans other peoples ways of discussion, and repeatedly condescends implying that noone can grasp how easy and simple he is trying to make things for the herd, can have something to measure your reply with.

I say that you want me to answer your impromptu, non-sequitur, loaded hypothetical question so you can then sit there on your throne and analyze whether or not I would be following what you seem to think would be the "proper" "simple" "easy" "bona fide" way to represent Srila Prabhupada's mission in such a situation.

I never came to you looking for your guidance in such a manner. Do you always try to arrange to offer unsolicited advice, or am I just a lucky guy today?

You might get some mileage out of that technique with some retarded GBC men who would jump at the chance to prove how bona-fide they were, and you could get into some really good arguements, could probably poke lots of holes in their imaginary attempts to fix up your imaginary new guy.

To think that you still consider that I give a rats patootie about your so called need to flaunt your megalomaniacal superiority complex just goes to show you, and everyone else reading this who isn't brainwashed into lockstep with this absurd method of tyranny, how out of touch with reality you really are.

It might be time to call that doctor back.

Or prove me wrong, by giving me a legitimate reason for diverging as you have with your burning need.

Take your time and answer carefully. Do you want more of this? And when I say my hand is forced, I would think a big shot like you would get the symbolism and not attribute that as a claim by me that I do this against my will. So as before, I hope you just get real and don't force my hand to the whip again.

Either way, my spiritual teacher said...

Srila Prabhupada Lilamrta Vol. 6 pg. 232:

"The pen is mightier than the sword," Ramesvara declared. "Yes," Srila Prabhupada answered. "It is a revolution. That is what I thought as I wrote on and on..."

CWSP Vol. 3 pg. 208:

Srila Prabhupada: When there is need of fight, we shall fight.

I'd rather discuss and cooperate but I will fight.

in service to the truth,

Mark

Posted by shiva das @ 12/14/2005 06:32 PM PST

Praghosa Maharaja you wrote:

Prabhu please instruct me. What is the most advantageous way for me to act upon all I have found so inspiring within these two books?

Posted by Bhakta Ray @ 12/14/2005 06:27 PM PST

I need to interject here. If am to understand that the Rocan faction, as does the IRM, believes that any association with ISKCON is an implicit offense to Srila Prabhupada, that in fact all ISKCON devotees are committing by that fact an elephant offense, I must object. Assuming that ISKCON reduces to its administration is itself a material conception. GBC is not synonomous with ISKCON. It is naive to think that GBC was a fount of purity during Srila' Prahbuphada's presence. Many of the 'eleven' were already conducting some of their nefarious activities. Kirtananda made an early start along with Bhavananda. Hansaduta stockpiling weapons because of 'the war' that was supposedly eminent etc...
All this was going on because His Divine Grace was kept in the dark.
These kinds of people don't become raving miscreants overnight. It's just that after 1977 they seized their opportunity. It is fallacious to indict every member of a movement for the misdeeds of its management. I don't believe ISKCON is simply a physical institution. As the name implies, it's a 'SOCIETY'. A living spiritual entity. Prabhupada is ISKCON's spiritual father. It has survived at least a couple of GBC administrations and will survive others. One should not mistake the external structure however misconceived with the internal spiritual life of the movement. Even though it's not a democracy, the Paramisvara and the Acarya can still effect change from within simply by the force of the purity of its members.

-

Posted by praghosa das @ 12/14/2005 05:26 PM PST

Mark my friend...

In all my days I have never encountered anyone - and believe me children are expert - who could so expertly avoid answering a simple question as you are doing. You have mastered the art of "explaining" what someone is not so OBVIOUSLY saying, as well as the deeper meanings of why they say them!

I have to admit - I enjoy your comments because now after I write stuff - I think - " Hmm....What am I really trying to say here?" or the even more mysterious "Did I say that? Why would I say that? What in God's name am I suffering from that would compel me to ask such a horribly difficult question? And so irrelevant on top of that! O well Praghosa, sit tight because your dear admirer Mark - who deeply appreciates the more subtle nuances of what you say and why you say it will jump to the quick and use these comments or questions to demonstrate his inabilty to grasp simple questions all the while "clarifying" what lies "in the heart" of Praghosa as is so clearly proven by his insisting upon asking these questions.

Honestly Mark C'mon my friend. You cannot be that frightened to answer my question. Is it so difficult?

Here they are one more time prabhu;

So I was really asking the basic philosophical questions that any newcomer might ask - as I said "After being stoked" upon encountering Srila Prabhupada most delightful presentation of Krsna Consciousness.

If you will recall I left you with two (2) essential criticisms of Rocan's position paper:

"However this is not the case. He not only makes this claim for himself - but also claims that anyone who does not share his view of the matter "inadvertently contributes to an unwanted transformation from spirituality to religiosity."

1. I challenge this claim. Openly and directly. He has also invited me to do so."

My point in raising this issue should be clear. I am directly saying that there was a very specific system established by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada for providing just what I have stated is not presented nor supported by Rocan Das in his paper Sampradaya Sun; the means to scientifically guide a new man in acting upon all that he will encounter in Srila Prabhupada's Bhagavad Gita and Science of Self Realization.

2.I directly assert that this Sampradaya Acharya presentation by Rocan, while perhaps well intended is presented in a manner which misreprents the training Rocan Prabu received from His Divine Grace in his formative years as a Temple President and samkirtan leader. Consequently - I assert that it essentially leads no where.

In the interest of keeping it simple and directed in "MY" self interest - not Mark's - I asked what arrangements - if any - were provided by the Author of these two books - that would allow me to act upon all I had encountered there. Here are my exact words:

"Pretend I am a new man and I wish to act upon the guidance I have found in Srila Prabhupada's SSR and BG that I just purchased one month ago. I am stoked. I want to drop everything and take to the guidance found in these two books! I have dropped my girlfriend and declined to act upon my recent enrollment at Wayne State University. I want to act upon the 18 principles of knowldege found in the BG 13th Chapter.

I then asked you to support your claim that this is indeed there by stating what that scientific process was and either quote Rocan Prabhu and his paper or Srila Prabhupada. Fair enough and very straightforward. I asked on behalf of that new man:

"Prabhu please instruct me. What is the most advantageous way for me to act upon all I have found so inspiring within these two books?"

Now as much as I appreciate your description of your daily activities might it be possible that you take a moment and offer me a legitimate answer that will address MY need?

This is the essential point of my claim against the nuts and bolts of Rocan's position paper. That is all. My question to you was not meant as you have taken it; to make things easier for myself or to see if you would play guru the way I think you should perhaps. This is your imagination.

Now I do appreciate all you have pointed out again about the evil or nonsensical or prideful or whatever - Praghosa - that you have so expertly taken the time to point out - against your will you informed us(Rocan Prabhu employs the same valuble talent) but if you could be so kind - try as hard as it might seem - to take the focus off of Mark as your first answer was and off of Praghosa as was the focus of your second answer and just keep your eye on the actual question. Then you will have little difficulty in filing through the needed sources and giving me a straightforward answer. I was personally with Srila Prabhpada on more than one occasion when questions would be asked and he would say "Who can answer?" If no one could provide the response that was most natural and accurate to the question asked, His Divine GRace would chastise us saying "You are not reading our books?" Who can answer?" The answers I am nudging you to provide are actually all given DIRECTLY by His Divine Grace AC Bhaktividanta Swami Srila Prabhupada himself. I have not asked anything that was not asked of Srila Prabhupada and receieved his published answer!!

If you avoid my questions because you either do not know his answer, or arrogantly believe that his answers are no longer appropriate and applicable to the present day, why not be honest and just say so? Why waste our time with all the BS about Praghosa.

I have said it in so many ways it gets ridiculous: Praghosa and ALL his qualities - horrible - bad or even good - are irrelevant. What you might imagine I am really saying or why I am really saying it are also relevant. When My doctor told me two years ago what my health condition was and what I had to do to deal with it - I did not spend a single second analysing his statements or WHY he might say them. I simply looked for reasons to place my confidence in the medical treatment protocol he was prescribing to address the illness.

Our material disease is like that.

There is a scientific process for dealing with our material condition. It was COMPLETELY GIVEN BY SRILA PRABHUPADA. Nothing was left out. It is eternal and does not require anyone's tinkering and/or fine tuning. Any "adjustments" needed to spoonfeed us - were made by Srila Prabhupada himself under the DIRECT INSTRUCTIONS of Lord Krsna.

So my simple question to you has a very straightforward answer. If you can ignore Praghosa long enough - just pretend my name is Theodore Cleaver - that would be The Beave to those who knew and loved him - and offer him (not me) your straightforeward answser.

Thanking you in advance
Praghosa Das

Posted by Mark @ 12/14/2005 11:16 AM PST

Dear Balarama,

The question was a diversion from the topic as I plainly and painstakingly detailed.

It is a separate topic.

And I did answer the question.

I don't work in a hypothetical realm, and I am not an Acharya.

I clearly stated who I am now and what service I am involved in.

If some real person were to approach me, by the Lord's arrangement, and make some request related to how to engage in Bhakti-Yoga, I would relate to that person according to the Real situation, and from my heart, and I guess you'll have to be there if it happens to see how it goes.

Best regards,

Mark

Posted by Balarama @ 12/14/2005 10:49 AM PST

Mark...It would have been easier to just answer his question. It's a fair and practical question. What do you do with a brand new person ready to join?

Why not just answer the question. It doesn't mean your other points aren't valid, but his question is a good and very relevent question.

Why are you avoiding that question?

Balarama

Posted by Mark @ 12/14/2005 10:35 AM PST

I hoped it wouldn’t come to this but my hand has been forced.

The diversionary baiting that Praghosa Dasa is perpetrating now, despite his apparent well wishes, etc. Is a result of my challenge to a post that he made on 12/12 which began as follows.

“In the interest of assiting the general flow of this thread, I thought it might be helpful to offer the conclusive statements or summary of the article "Sampradaya Acharya". Rocan prabhu sent this to me the other day and the following summary provides the clearest explantation for Rocan Prabhu's having established this website to begin with.”

Here we see that he has Determined that the General flow, meaning the nature and direction of what all here have been discussing needs his Assistance. When he says in the interest, I wonder who’s interest he was speaking of.

So he “thinks” it “might” be helpful to offer etc. Sounds like speculation to me. Not that I am against that, but for someone who is constantly harping on everyone else to be absolute in their speech and only “discuss” from the “spiritual” platform, let’s see what do we call this kind of behaviour?

I realize at this point that anyone with the eyes to see and the ears to hear who might be reading this blog already sees what I do, and hears what I do, and knows where I am going with this.

I really have no need to defend my self or my position. However we have been exhorted to defend other devotees and debate those who, by whatever intention, misunderstand and mischaracterize the offerings of those other devotees.

And this is never to assist the choir who already sees what is going down. It is always because there is at least one person present who is undecided about the truth, standing on the novice platform, ready to go either way. It is for that person alone that we must bring clarity in such situations. With that said..

The next sentence in Praghosa’s post is this.

"Preaching is not discussing."

However we see on 12/13 at 10:17 am, he has the following opinion.

“REAL "spiritual" discussion is only finding out WHO is the actual authority on the subject of WHO is the creator of matter and spirit and THE controller of both. THAT is spiritual discussion. THAT discussion will eventually touch upon every detail concerning the Lord, His creation, our part in it and how to obtain all that is rightfully ours as it pertains to our relationship with that creator.”

At this point I am not sure what he really believes, but am certain he will believe in whatever suits his ability to argue and defend his position.

After Speaking of Srila Prabhupada’s glories a bit, he gets back to his sanctimony saying,

“What transpires here in this site is merely exchange of impression.”

So glad your highness has been willing to descend to the mud with us mere mortals.

But in fairness, he was trying to make the following point, with the rest of that paragraph…

“What someone hears, employs and/or perceives is shared with others. Everyone takes a firm stance, some more so than others, yet no one accepts the presentation of anyone else - Absolutely; as if it is being spoken by the Supreme Personality of Goedhead Himself.”

I can tell you would like to be in the position as absolutely representing the Supreme Personality of Godhead, as it would be an honor and do your spiritual master justice, but instead of admitting you are just aspiring to that like the rest of us, and discuss how we can improve, you are representing the Supreme Personality of Goadhead, prodding us like cattle, but I am currently serving mother cow and am thus goaded into poking you right back mister.

He then goes on to speak of Srila Prabhupada’s absolute authority and point out how foolish he made those who spoke from ignorance claiming it was enlightenment. To bad you never received chastisement from him, maybe you would have taken it to heart.

Next he extends an invitation, to all readers here and to, himself?

“I would invite the readers and those who participate in the "discussions" here - myself included - to read very very carefully the conclusions of HG Rocan Prabhu as they pertain to his article "Sampradaya Acharya".”

That afterthought, placing “-myself included”, is a way of trying to show that he includes himself in the herd he is goading, but really does not believe so, only offering it as a token for those foolish enough to buy it and remain under his spell.

And next after concluding what Rocana Dasa’s foundational motivation is for creating this website, we get his true confession as to what he has to offer.

“I offer that this site - while perhaps very well intended - does not offer anything more than less than "Absolute Suggestions" for how to deal with either one's inability or unwillingness to work cooperatively with the simple formula provided us by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada for sharing receiving and sharing this Krsna Consciousness.”

Here is where my mistake came in. Instead of doing what I am about to do now, I skipped ahead after reading his own less than absolute suggestions, and challenged Praghosa Dasa on his own inadequacy in that department and asked him to either back off, or come up with something more concrete.

What I am going to do now is to clearly show how his so called suggestions which immediately follow his “critique” of Rocana’s “less than absolute” stance is quite lacking itself.

He says.

“My continued use of the word "simple" should not be taken to imply that the process of Krsna consciousness is "EASY". The two words are not meant to be taken like this. The process or technique for bench pressing 10 pounds or 300 pounds is simple and exactly the same. However to lift 300 pounds is not as "easy" as it is to press 10 pounds.”

Yah, please keep dumbin it down for us moo-moos.

"Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu said about Himself (though clearly for our benefit) - "Durdaivam Idrsm Ihajani NA-ANURAGAH" - though it is simple, I have no desire"!"

Although I agree that the Lord has two motives for all his activities as the most munificent incarnation, this implication, beginning with the word “though” suggests that the Lord was not feeling and expressing honestly, "Durdaivam Idrsm Ihajani NA-ANURAGAH" - though it is simple, I have no desire.” But clearly just to show us what to do. Hmmm. I wonder what Srila Prabhupada would say to this INTERPRETATION. Doubt I’ll find any Acharya who said those words.

Next.

“This is our only problem. NO Desire! Now how is this desire acquired? By sincerely and even more importantly, gratefully serving the Lord and His servants.”

Ok, where is this going. Now that I know my only problem “mooooo” and I am told I need to sincerely and gratefully serve the Lord and His servants, where will I be led next.

“We initiate our serving of the pure devotees - by hearing "submssively" from them - how to effectively act upon the instructions of our spotless Parampara. This submission however is not given to anyone less than he who is speaking directly for Lord Krsna. Unless we are confident that our so-called spiritual master is speaking for Krsna - why on earth would we surrender our free will to arbitrary, speculative invention?”

Yes why on earth would we. Speculating about what other devotees need. Inventing reasons for why The Lord does what he does. Best not to pay such a character too much credence. But there is more.

"It is this Parampara - with His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada permenently fixed up as the current link to this Parampara by means of his Bhaktivedanta Purports, that will generate the needed confidence in our hearts to fully embrace the chanting of the Holy Names of Lord Krsna."

I couldn’t agree more. Anyone who has read, heard, digested and assimilated all of the Purport of Srila Prabhupada would certainly be a fine absolute authority to generate confidence in our hearts. Hopefully none of us are deviating from his guidance to further their own agendas.

And again, Praghosa reiterates his main critique and conclusion saying…

"I want to say that though Rocan Prabhu's intentions may be of the highest sort - his effort to provide some form of solution to whatever he has come to view as the essential problems with Krsna Consciousness as they have manifested through ISKCON - is just speculative, specious arbitrary invention.”

Is that sort of like GBC resolutions to vote who a guru is, or to form committees to investigate how to treat children instead of just acting on the instruction of authority?

Of course “hey at least they’re doing SOMETHING about the problems” will be shot back at me with the velocity of a bullet.

But then Praghosa Dasa sticks both the shotgun and the cattle prod where it belongs saying…

"This being the case - thread after thread of "discussion" can be generated on so many subjects - but due to the fact that your basic premise is invention and does not conform to our Srila Prabhupada's direct instructions to us, your conclusions will never be accepted Absolutely and without that - they have no real value. Likewise - this forum will subsequently attract similarly speculative individuals who reject Srila Prabhupada's authority - all the while claiming the opposite."

I believe Praghosa Dasa has unknowingly divulged the identity of one of these speculative inventors whose conclusions have no real value who has been attracted to his website who rejects Srila Prabhupada’s authority while claiming the opposite.

Since I do not believe there are any mindless cattle present, just some novices perhaps, I will give them the credit of filling in the blanks here.

I’ll make the rest of this quick and painless, well sort of.

His “Challenge”

“I challenge anyone - including Rocan prabhu himself - to carefully read the following closing comments of your article - and demonstrate how your conlusions - and thus this website - rooted in these conclusions - beginning with "Anyone aligning themselves with today’s ISKCON, Gaudiya Matha or Rtvik groups are inadvertently contributing to an unwanted transformation from spirituality to religiosity." - could possibly find the sublime process for taking shelter of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu - in all its details - genuinely and unequivocally presented as was done by our Srila Prabhupada and his eager, authorized Temple Presidents from 1966 until 1977.”

Hmmm, uses Prabhu in a flattering way when it is obvious he feels the person is less than a master. Just to remind everyone of what happens when we are out of balance. And the name appears to be Rocana Dasa to me.

But the challenge itself. Lets read it carefully to see if there even IS ONE.

He challenges anyone, to read the closing comments and demonstrate how your (Rocana Dasa’s) conclusions could possibly find the sublime process for taking shelter of the Lord in all its details as presented by Srila Prabhupada and his Temple Presidents.

I think I got all the substantive verbs and nouns there.

I didn’t know that Rocana’s conclusions were searching for shelter of the Lord. I thought that was an activity that human beings were inspired to do.

Am I being to hard on him? After all of his challenges to me not to assume the meaning of something is obvious to anyone else?

Lets see. I will be sincere. I believe his challenge is somewhere along the lines of the following. He is comparing Rocana Dasa’s conclusions and presentation of this website with the process of sadhana bhakti as presented by Srila Prabhupada through Iskcon and its temples from 1966-1977. He is wondering how anyone could find the sublime process in all its detail from Rocana’s site in comparison to what they get when they walk into an Iskcon temple before 1977. Hmmm, we can’t do that, maybe his comparison is to the likelihood of finding that sublime process when walking into an Iskcon temple today. Hmmm, he wouldn’t dare, because as he knows himself not all Isckon temples provide that service these days. But if he had a specific one in mind, maybe he could have used this as a comparison for his challenge.

Hey, why am I doing all his work for him. Bottom line, the challenge is bunk. And has been met, err, debunked so to say.

Ok lets wrap this up.

“I maintain that your presentation is not what Srila Prabhupada gave us. It is invention and not blessed with the saffron particles of the dust of the Lotus feet of Lord Krsna. Its purpose is not to direct the reader's attention to the simplicity of the process nor is it designed to make the adoption of THAT SIMPLE PROCESS - EASY.”

So when was he going to offer comprehensively in full detail what Srila Prabhupdada gave us? Oh yeah, he never offered this. Just finds fault with those he contends can’t do it themselves.

“ I contend that it will produce endless "discussion" but unless our "20 minute lecture or discussion" brings us to the faithful position of accepting Srila Prabhupada's presentation of the teachings of the spotless Parampara and his direct instructions as to how to most easily introduce those instructions - it will not yield the effects desired by Srila Prabhupada and every living being looking for the means to make the mission of his human form of life successful.”

What a grand statement. I contend it will not produce endless discussion, those who are sincere will discuss until we are satisfied that someone other than the CURRENT GBC is presenting the spotless teachings in toto, thus following Srila Prabhupada spotlessly. And that will yield in time to a bunch of REAL sanyassins sitting around the fire discussing strictly above the material platform.

“I do not take issue with Rocan prabhu personally. I am certain that like all my Godbrothers he is every bit as eager to see Srila Prabhupada's mission successfully established. I am not contesting his devotion to His Divine Grace whatsoever.”

Not contesting his devotion whatsoever.

And one last twist or two.
“I contest only the conclusions of this paper "Sampradaya Acharya" as they pertain to Srila Prabhupada's instructions in certain details of devotional service.”

I thought the whole paper was a useless speculative invention, leading people anywhere but to the shelter of the Lord’s lotus feet? Now it is only missing on instructions on certain details? And the final zinger.

“ trust that Rocan will only address my comments in this manner as well.”

So all along this was only meant to elicit a response from Rocan. Who’s he? What about the challenge to any and all readers. Maybe I should have read to the end before sparing ol “Rocan” the agony of this duel.

That’ll teach me.

So to all reading this, this is what happens when a person mistakes there actual position. They want to be the supreme authority. That is ok, none of us want to make mistakes, and all would like to represent our Spiritual Master without error by interpretation. But when we are ASPIRING to that, it is best to call it what it is, and not consider you are there already. That way one will never put oneself in the position of needing to have such a shaky platform knocked out from under them.

I do not believe my expose here will minimize the faith Praghosa Dasa has in Srila Prabhupada. Only make it stronger through seeing that someone cares enough to spend all this time to make sure he sees what he has really been up to.

In all sincerety Praghosa Dasa, I wish you well, I could not otherwise. I hope your heart will slay all the demons that want to keep you from normal everyday discussion between conditioned souls trying their best. I also hope you will check to make sure the books you distribute were not edited by rascals after Srila Prabhupada’s departure.

From his lotus lips…

We are therefore presenting Bhagavad-gita as it is. We do not change. Why should you change? What right you have got to change? If Bhagavad-gita is a book of authority, and if I make my own interpretation, then where is the authority? Can you change the lawbook according to your interpretation? Then what is the meaning of that lawbook? That is not lawbook. You cannot change. Similarly, if you accept Bhagavad-gita as the book of authority, you cannot change the meaning. That is not allowed. What right? If you have got some opinion, if you have got some philosophy, you can write in your own book.
Why you are, I mean to say, killing others and yourself by interpreting Bhagavad-gita?

(B.G. Lec. 7.1 Hyderabad, 27th April, 1974)

Hare Krishna

Your servant,

Mark

Posted by praghosa das @ 12/14/2005 06:27 AM PST

Mark,
Honestly Mark I appreciate your description of what you do each day etc. That is of course all well and good and I can only encourage you. However your response deals with Mark and what Mark is doing etc. I was not asking you for a detailed description of what you are doing each day. The way the world works is each of us acts in "our" self interest. This is quite natural. So I was really asking the basic philosophical questions that any newcomer might ask - as I said "After being stoked" upon encountering Srila Prabhupada most delightful presentation of Krsna Consciousness.

If you will recall I left you with two (2) essential criticisms of Rocan's position paper:

"However this is not the case. He not only makes this claim for himself - but also claims that anyone who does not share his view of the matter "inadvertently contributes to an unwanted transformation from spirituality to religiosity."

1. I challenge this claim. Openly and directly. He has also invited me to do so."

2.I directly assert that this Sampradaya Acharya presentation by Rocan, while perhaps well intended is presented in a manner which misreprents the training Rocan Prabu received from His Divine Grace in his formative years as a Temple President and samkirtan leader. Consequently - I assert that it essentially leads no where.

In the interest of keeping it simple and directed in "MY" self interest - not Mark's - I asked what arrangements - if any - were provided by the Author of these two books - that would allow me to act upon all I had encountered there. Here are my exact words:

"Pretend I am a new man and I wish to act upon the guidance I have found in Srila Prabhupada's SSR and BG that I just purchased one month ago. I am stoked. I want to drop everything and take to the guidance found in these two books! I have dropped my girlfriend and declined to act upon my recent enrollment at Wayne State University. I want to act upon the 18 principles of knowldege found in the BG 13th Chapter.

Prabhu please instruct me. What is the most advantageous way for me to act upon all I have found so inspiring within these two books?"

Now as much as I appreciate your description of your daily activities might it be possible that you take a moment and offer me a legitimate answer that will address MY need?

This is the essential point of my claim against the nuts and bolts of Rocan's position paper. That is all. My question to you was not meant as you have taken it; to make things easier for myself or to see if you would play guru the way I think you should perhaps. This is your imagination.

In fact - this entire affair is all about renouncing the desire to "play guru as we like" but to properly represent the Spiritual Master. "Playing guru" is a waste of everyone's valuable time. Proper representation of Srila Prabhupada is valuable. Why would I ask you to play guru? I did ask you to assist me as a newcomer in correctly acting upon all Srila Prabhupada would expect of one who received his book, read it, and then desired to put its conclusions into positive action that would serve MY self interest.

When Srila Prabhupada was asked the very questions I asked you - He did in fact give the definitive answers to those questions and it is our duty as his disciples to simply convey his answers - directly and confidently - to those who ask them. So my questions were meant to allow you the opportunity to provide them.

The response you gave me tells me only this; either you could not find them within the essential position of the Sampradaya Sun essay,you don't know what Srila Prabhupada's answers were, or know but do not have faith in them and thus did not answer them as directly as you could have. Of course there could be other reasons but these are certainly the first that would naturally come to mind.

It is certainly your right to remain silent and ignore my questions. I raise the issue not merely for your benefit but for anyone's who might wander in here.

I will encourage you in all you have stated to illustrate your daily activities and your motivations for doing so. I wish you all success in that always.

Hare Krsna

Posted by Anon @ 12/13/2005 11:21 PM PST

Mark: You carry a double-edged sword indeed. Some of your points are well taken and some erroneous. I will just sit back at ringside and keep track of the "rounds." Gee, wonder who will win if indeed winning is everything. However, I doubt it. You tip the scales toward Rocana das's original position somewhat but with a twist. We'll see what transpires as the blog progresses.

Posted by Mark @ 12/13/2005 10:47 PM PST

Hari Bol!

Before I pass out into Maya’s sweet embrace, I want to point something out.

I don’t know if you are still listening Bhatin Miriam, but I gather from your post that you either truly feel like a peon, or are just showing some healthy sarcasm, or as I suspect, a little of both. Mostly I get a sense of true wonder and happiness at what you see going down with H.H. Trivikram Swami’s participation here.

Anyway, my main point is this.

In the world of business, when a business person receives a letter from a customer, regardless of the feedback, the general rule is that 1000 others feel the same way, but do not take the time to write, thinking it won’t make a difference anyway. This is how they make predictions about how the market feels about their goods and services. The same goes for politics.

Regardless of one’s agenda, I doubt anyone could keep a straight face and say that her statements were not genuine and sincere.

In a situation where people are exercising absolute power over the lives of others, it is encouraging to read your post because of your courage, but on the other hand just another sickening reminder of the inhuman imbalances which still remain entrenched despite all the rhetoric of reform, and suchness.

Anyway, glad to see you inspired by something Miriam.

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!

y.s.

Mark

Posted by Mark @ 12/13/2005 10:24 PM PST

Dear Praghosa Dasa,

On the contrary, to what you state, I am confident that
you only want to make things easier for yourself.

Unable and unwilling to address my pointed concerns regarding the actual topics we have been engaged in, most specifically my opinion that you lack the ability to articulate a solid and just foundation for your criticisms, you try to flip the burden, laying an imaginary hypothetical scenario to on me to test my foundation, to try to see if I would play guru the way you think I should perhaps? A diversion regardless as to whether you understand your motivation. I understand.

I won't pretend or play imaginary games, but if you want to know something about my real program, all you have to do is ask.

Let me lay it out for you.

Without overdramatizing, I live somewhat in self imposed exile due to taking a real stance against injustice where I live. My abode is small and very temporary. Currently my altar and thus my temple is very humble. My prayers and offerings are between me, Srila Prabhupada, and the Pancha Tattva.

Outside of that circle, I first serve the pleasure of those who have been cast out, because it gives me pious sense gratification, aside from simply being the right thing to do. Yes right and wrong first, then transcendent Vaisnava someday by the Lord's mercy.

Simultaneously, with a few devotees more advanced than I, and a few somewhat newer, we have been creating a sanctuary in a nice country location, based on common principles of human decency and respect, where the core participants wouldn’t even think to break the basic sacred trusts between humans, animals (cows in particular) and nature. For those aspiring to be like that, they will be held to task gently but firmly with faith in their sincere desire to change. All guided by our Love for Srila Prabhupada and his comprehensive instructions. It will be Iskcon in spirit, and if I have my way, someday in name as well.

We will distribute prasadam and books as come natural to our hearts, no seminars needed.

For me preaching will likely follow after family life.

And wherever I see in public that people are discussing sincerely how to address the rectification of Iskcon, I will seriously discuss.

For those using Srila Prabhupada's instructions and books like cudgels to beat others into submission, with an agenda to turn a blind eye to rascal offenders under the guise of patience and tolerance, or to adroitly attempt to halt substantial discussion labeling it "prajalpa" directly or by insinuation, or, worse of all, using fear tactics to try to get someone to renounce their material tendencies prematurely and serve them as guru, calling it transcendental, I grow three times my size physically and intellectually and take out my sword or pen, whichever is needed.

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

sincerely,

Mark

Posted by Mark @ 12/13/2005 09:04 PM PST

Dear Trivikrama Swami,

Thank you for your thoughts and invitation. I would prefer to email you in private at first. I will contact you through your website. Tomorrow.

Hare Krishna

ys.

Mark

Posted by Jahnava @ 12/13/2005 07:47 PM PST

Hare Krsna! Rocana asked me to drop a brief note to say that he's reading all of your postings with great interest. Because he's traveling this week, he doesn't have facility to respond. He should have a series of replies posted by the weekend.

Posted by bhaktin Miriam @ 12/13/2005 07:23 PM PST

Wow! It is so refreshing to have a guru, in this case, Trivikrama Swami speaking with the rest of us devotees. Usually gurus do not engage in conversations with us peon devotees about controversial topics. Their standard behavior toward us who dare question authority is to simply ignore us. This way they let us know exactly how they feel about us. So for me it is amazing to see that he is here with the rest of us "down here." No offense intended.

Posted by praghosa das @ 12/13/2005 06:46 PM PST

Mark I will try to make it easy for you.

Pretend I am a new man and I wish to act upon the guidance I have found in Srila Prabhupada's SSR and BG that I just purchased one month ago. I am stoked. I want to drop everything and take to the guidance found in these two books! I have dropped my girlfriend and declined to act upon my recent enrollment at Wayne State University. I want to act upon the 18 principles of knowldege found in the BG 13th Chapter.

Prabhu please instruct me. What is the most advantageous way for me to act upon all I have found so inspiring within these two books?

I would ask that you first confine your answer to the guidance of Rocan prabhu as he has presented it in his Sampradaya Acharya. If you differ with him - then provide me your own answer as you have come to understand it.

This will simplify this exchange.

Respectfully Praghosa

Posted by Trivikrama Swami @ 12/13/2005 01:13 PM PST

Bh. Mark has stated:

"If you would stop underestimating me, it would benefit us both. I am in your corner. I see this as a great sticking point between us as there is much I would like to rely on you for as you apparently are one of the exceptions from that era with true sincerety, devotion, and fortitude, and I do not blame you for any percieved inability at the end of Srila Prabhupada's Lila to stand up to those madmen, as it was divinely arranged. And I do credit you for having the discernment to see the real harmful deviations which occured afterward and take a stand against them."

Mark I see you have a dynamic intelligence and a indefatgable spirit, both of which I admire.
But I really don't think we can reach a true understanding of each others point of view using this medium of communication. If you would like to call me I am at 407-677-7142.

Ys TS

Posted by Mark @ 12/13/2005 12:20 PM PST

Praghosa Dasa,

Again, I hear your criticisms. It may be that I was in deficit from not making myself clear.

I believe your criticisms are founded on either misunderstanding or lack of ability to listen, or maybe both.

As well, the alternatives you offer, well, vague and perhaps worse.

For the record. You state.

I DIRECTLY address WHAT he says and DIRECTLY STATE that it is errant.

This in regard to as you say…

“Rocan prabhu has claimed various things in his conclusions - which I directly assert cannot be taken as other than his own assertion that he - Rocan prabhu- either cannot, will not, or simply does not wish to search for Srila Prabhupada's authority and guidance within the company of those who serve now in Srila Prabhupada's established temples.”

That is your synopsis that you assert is what his conclusions must presumably mean he is asserting.

You do quote however,

If he HONESTLY admitted that this was merely a matter of personal choice - I would not waste time contesting his statements. However this is not the case. He not only makes this claim for himself - but also claims that anyone who does not share his view of the matter "inadvertently contributes to an unwanted transformation from spirituality to religiosity."”

So you directly reject the last part in quotes which, despite your assumptions as to how he comes to that, you later quote him more exactly

“Anyone aligning themselves with today’s ISKCON, Gaudiya Matha or Rtvik groups are inadvertently contributing to an unwanted transformation from spirituality to religiosity. In a religious setting, our spiritual advancement stagnates due to the institutional restrictions placed on inquisitive philosophical spirituality."

Then you say.

“and no objection is heard. Only your explanation for WHY he said it or what he "obviously" meant"

I heard your objection. I apologize for my presumption that what he meant was obvious to you. It is just that I and others have in this very thread consistently delineated the nature of the abstract but real distinction between the Spirit of Iskcon as offered by Srila Prabhupada, and the current concrete manifestation of its offering to the world.

Let me be even more pointed and clear.

What we are addressing is a complex and ugly situation brought about by serious deviations and the point in contention is that when an institution's leadership is co-opted, and those leaders fail to align with the spirit of the Founder due to lack of adherance to said Founder’s principles, then, for ANYONE to align themselves with the current goals of that institution is a delicate scenario which may mean to distance oneself from the "Official" Iskcon until guidance and damage control can be done from outside.

Your alternative is summed up when you give your opinion as to what “real spiritual discussion” is and is not. According to your standard, No one in Iskcon would be encountering any problems whatsoever, because they all would be guided by discussions as you describe…

“So despite what anyone might wish for - genuinely "spiritual discussion" within the scope of what constitutes Srila Prabhpada's mission - can only be said to be genuinely spiritual if it is precisely what Srila Prabhupada provided as both general and/or specific instructions.”

What Rocana and I and others are contending is that those who are leading and making the overall final policy decisions regarding the ISKCON corpus, body, or institution, are not guided by those types of spiritual discussions, else there would not be such offense being committed.

You and others are so against even considering the validity of our perspective on this matter that you cannot even ENTER into discussion in that regard, and dismiss it out of hand, without any grounded counter-argument as to why it is not potentially valid. Each and every time, and you are not the only one. And to say such a discussion is not spiritual is your choice, but I find that disingenuous, perhaps naively, or perhaps dastardly. Either way, if that is really how you feel, your next move is obvious I’d say.

So for you to say.

"I offer you the chance to defend his philosophical conclusions and his "suggestions" for actions. Why do you waste my time and yours with this blathering attempt to steer the conversation to where I never suggested going?"

I proffer that you never suggested going where I went because you have some agenda which prevents you from even considering my point as I articulated above. Your agenda may be dastardly because you denigrate my attempt to be more clear by attacking such as blathering and a waste of your time. I was indeed defending his philosophical conclusions as invited but being that I was able, you then decide that is not really what you wanted, you just wanted to assert his error, suggest that we not discuss it because it is not spiritual to do that, and we should just go out on the street and freeze distributing books.

As for how I am spending my time, way too much of it is being wasted by people who say I am wasting theirs today.

Sincerely,

Mark

Posted by Mark @ 12/13/2005 10:56 AM PST

Dear Trivikram Swami,

You take me for a fool, and I am, but not the way you think it.

It is entirely in line with the concept that Srila Prabhupada was always the Master of the situation, and that No-one dispatches or disappears a pure devotee but the Lord himself, to say unequivocally that many of those disciples surrounding Srila Prabhupada in his last days consisitently -

Questioned his direct orders.

Continually denied many of his requests.

Were referred to as Ravana.

Some needed so much of Srila Prabhupdada's direct intimate attention because they were actually the least spiritually qualified out of all his disciples at the time, as was made clear directly after his departure as those so called disciples divided up the world for their apa-Acharya conquest.

Srila Prabhupada was so merciful that he tailored all of his desires and requests at the end to somehow please those very neophyte (or less) "Big Devotees" who were around him. They wanted to rule the world, he gave them a big enough rope to hang themselves with. They, specifically Tamal Krishna and perhaps a couple others, wanted him not to return to Gita Nagari to demonstrate down home vedic lifestyle, not go out on parikram one last time, he gave in. He let them kidnap him. But that does not change the horrendous offensiveness of the gesture. And he did this not out of weakness as you suggest that I suggest, but pure transparent mercy on their souls. Most of those people were 99% propped up by Srila Prabhupada's Sukriti and this was the ultimate display of magnaminity.

If you would stop underestimating me, it would benefit us both. I am in your corner. I see this as a great sticking point between us as there is much I would like to rely on you for as you apparently are one of the exceptions from that era with true sincerety, devotion, and fortitude, and I do not blame you for any percieved inability at the end of Srila Prabhupada's Lila to stand up to those madmen, as it was divinely arranged. And I do credit you for having the discernment to see the real harmful deviations which occured afterward and take a stand against them.

sincerely,

Mark

Posted by Balarama @ 12/13/2005 10:47 AM PST

Maharaja,

It is not offensive to repeat what Srila Prabhupada has said.

I am simply repeating what Srila Prabhupada has said. Devotees can hear and see for themselves. I do not have an agenda I am simply saying that Prabhupada said he was being poisoned. I do not know who Prabhupada was saying did it, but no doubt Prabhupada said he was being poisoned. That's a fact.

Balarama

Posted by praghosa das @ 12/13/2005 10:17 AM PST

Mark:

As I said about Rocan prabhu and his conclusions:

"I want to say that though Rocan Prabhu's intentions may be of the highest sort - his effort to provide some form of solution to whatever he has come to view as the essential problems with Krsna Consciousness as they have manifested through ISKCON - is just speculative, specious arbitrary invention."

You exhibit many of the features of one who is now guided by these "specious" conclusions.

There IS indeed an ABSOLUTE position - to be "represented" by every one of Srila Prabhupada's disciples. On every detail of Krsna Consciousness.

You may not appreciate this. That is your misfortune.

I pointed out that these details, especially in matters as important as WHO IS THE FINAL ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY in an individuals spiritual life - supported entirely by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada - ARE NOT CONTAINED within the "conclusions" of Rocan prabhu, YET - he does make many affirmative - thus "ABSOLUTE" statments in his conclusions.

This is the specious nature of his argument from it inception. And it is what has men such as yourself, clamoring to defend his "right" to say this or that. I do not contest his right to make any such claim he likes. Try to understand this. I DIRECTLY address WHAT he says and DIRECTLY STATE that it is errant. I offer you the chance to defend his philosophical conclusions and his "suggestions" for actions. Why do you waste my time and yours with this blathering attempt to steer the conversation to where I never suggested going?

What a waste of your human form of life. Let us talk like men - DIRECTLY and CLEARLY.

I assert - very directly that his conclusions - lack a coherent description of EXACTLY how any man - in any part of the globe - can TODAY in the year 2005 - EASILY and SIMPLY follow the sublime instructions of His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada in every single detail of devotional service - with the same enthusiasm, faith and confidence and purpose - as Rocan Prabhu was himself blessed to do in 1972.

It is missing from his conclusions.

Now if he were to honestly admit - "I - Rocan das - was formerly fully capable of acting upon the instructions of SRila Prabhupada as his authorized Temple President or Samkirtan leader etc - and bringing any man along in the process of devotional service - in such a way as to offer this man as a fully committed aspiring disciple who eagerly accepted all the simple regulative principles and Srila Prabhupada's instructions to chant at least 16 rounds of the Hare Krsna Mahamantra on his beads - dail BUT today - in the year 2005 - I Rocan das - either cannot or no longer wish to offer this very same opportunity to the new man seeking the very same shelter, in the very same way, from Lord Krsna - that I Rocan das was provided me - by Srila Prabhupada - via his books and disciples." Period.

That would be clear and honest.

However - the essence of what his conclusions offer is this:

I cannot find Krsna and His Pure Devotional service - nor access to it VIA Srila Prabhupada's expertly arranged system of preaching ANYWHERE. I have thus concluded that it would be foolish for ANYONE to waste their time looking for it - where it cannot be found since all the available venues are so tainted that attempting to find Guru and Krsna there would only "inadvertently contribute to an unwanted transformation from spirituality to religiosity".

I declare this "affirmation" to be unclear and unsubstantiated and completely subjective. It is his experience only and when presented as it is does no one any real service at all.

It is like the palm reader who says to you "You are going to make greaaaaat spiritual advancement in this life!"

"What will that "advancement" look like?" you ask

"That is not important! Just take it from me - you are going to make it!". Hogwash!!

Rocan's initiates his "conclusions" with this.

"ISKCON is religious not spiritual." (What does "spiritual" mean)? He just assumes we all know what he means. Like the palm reader!! Then he "positions" Srila Prabhupada's devotees in his ISKCON along side all those "BAD PEOPLE" who NEVER actually encourage or engage in meaningful "spiritual discussion" with this comment:

"In a religious setting, our spiritual advancement stagnates due to the institutional restrictions placed on inquisitive philosophical spirituality."

Oft times on samkirtan we are met with the rabid Christian who absolutely SWEARS that Krsna "Just could not be God"! Or the Atheist who swears "NOBODY can claim to have seen God" etc.
REAL "spiritual" discussion is only finding out WHO is the actual authority on the subject of WHO is the creator of matter and spirit and THE controller of both. THAT is spiritual discussion. THAT discussion will eventually touch upon every detail concerning the Lord, His creation, our part in it and how to obtain all that is rightfully ours as it pertains to our relationship with that creator. As I said - this knowledge descends to us. It is given. SRila Prabhupada points out in the BG that the "Friendly Talks" between Arjuna and Krsna had to end if Arjuna was to correctly conclude what he was meant to "DO". This is the most vital point in any so-called "spiritual" discussion. BG asserts "That which is "spiritual" is eternal. That which is eternal is Absolute Truth. So despite what anyone might wish for - genuinely "spiritual discussion" within the scope of what constitutes Srila Prabhpada's mission - can only be said to be genuinely spiritual if it is precisely what Srila Prabhupada provided as both general and/or specific instructions.

Rocan prabhu has claimed various things in his conclusions - which I directly assert cannot be taken as other than his own assertion that he - Rocan prabhu- either cannot, will not, or simply does not wish to search for Srila Prabhupada's authority and guidance within the company of those who serve now in Srila Prabhupada's established temples.

If he HONESTLY admitted that this was merely a matter of personal choice - I would not waste time contesting his statements. However this is not the case. He not only makes this claim for himself - but also claims that anyone who does not share his view of the matter "inadvertently contributes to an unwanted transformation from spirituality to religiosity."

1. I challenge this claim. Openly and directly. He has also invited me to do so. Consider it done.

You Sir- get incredibly disturbed when I speak in the affirmative in rejecting Rocan's position - or in any other case for that matter. You seem to imagine that Krsna Consciousness is an endless round of back and forth. This is not what constitutes genuine guhyam akyati prcchatti or valued dialogue amongst aspiring devotees. Not one bit. As I point out in my previous comments, unless what we say is 100% what Srila Prabhupada our accepted yardstick - our AUTHORITY - does in fact say... there is no value to any discussion. It is noise only. I speak what Srila Prabhupada says - in the affrimative - and you cry "Foul!". Yet Rocan speaks in the affirmative, something so general and usupportable as this:
""Anyone aligning themselves with today’s ISKCON, Gaudiya Matha or Rtvik groups are inadvertently contributing to an unwanted transformation from spirituality to religiosity. In a religious setting, our spiritual advancement stagnates due to the institutional restrictions placed on inquisitive philosophical spirituality." and no objection is heard. Only your explanation for WHY he said it or what he "obviously" meant.

2.I directly assert that this Sampradaya Acharya presentation by Rocan, while perhaps well intended is presented in a manner which misreprents the training Rocan Prabu received from His Divine Grace in his formative years as a Temple President and samkirtan leader. Consequently - I assert that it essentially leads no where.

Right now - today - there are hundreds of devotees - braving the cold weather - the influence of countless obstacles of every variety seeking to prevent or discourage Srila Prabhupada's disciples and granddisciples from going out to perform book distribtution and Hari Nama Samkirtan. This is going on - right now as we speak - all over the globe!! They are doing this with full loving faith in His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada and his mission.

And Rocan "affirms", perhaps without realizing it, that their doing this - under the direction of Srila Prabhupada's men is "inadvertently contributing to an unwanted transformation from spirituality to religiosity."

Now Mark I know that you are busy today with the Christmas Marathon like so many of our committed brothers distributing Srila Prabhupada's books or you are working hard in order to donate some of your money to assist the men with this great work, so I won't distract you further. I will address in their entirety these conclusions as they have been publically presented after yourChristmas Marathon is over in January. I will do so not in a spirit of quarrelling but rather with a genuine effort to support any man's quest to find access to Srila Prabhupada and Krsna with the same ease and simplicity as myself and Rocan Prabhu were provided way back in the early 70's.

Respectfully Praghosa Das

Posted by Trivikrama Swami @ 12/13/2005 09:19 AM PST

Balarama Said:

Maharaja, I am only repeating what Srila Prabhupada has said. It is recorded on tape and written in the Conversation Books.
------------------------------
He never said that he was being poisoned by his disciples.

For me it is not issue and I ain't going to talk about it no more, no more. I gave you some suggestion that may help you remove some of your doubts on this issue. What can I say? Some people like to keep their offensive doubts, it fits into their agenda.

Posted by Balarama @ 12/13/2005 08:23 AM PST

Maharaja, I am only repeating what Srila Prabhupada has said. It is recorded on tape and written in the Conversation Books.

Posted by Trivikrama Swami @ 12/13/2005 08:16 AM PST

Balarama Prabhu has stated:
"We know Maharaja that You were there.

Why would Prabhupada say such things?"

He never said he was being poisoned by his disciples, and he also said "Not that I am poisined".

I don't intend to discuss this issue anymore on this forum. I seriously recommend that all of you who have this doubt, Mark, Balaram, and whoever else is out there, approach Bhakti Charu Maharaja personally. He was the one cooking for, and giving medicine to Srila Prabhupada in those last days.
After talking with him please consult with your caitya guru and then talk to me. You owe it to yourself to do this much as you maybe harboring serious offenses in your mind and speaking them also.

Ys TS

Posted by Balaram @ 12/13/2005 06:46 AM PST

We know Maharaja that You were there.

Why would Prabhupada say such things?

Posted by Trivikrama Swami @ 12/13/2005 06:41 AM PST

Balarama Prabhu has said:

TV Swami you asked, " Please direct me to ONE person who was there in those days, and there were many, who think he (Srila Prabhupada) was kidnaped or poisoned. Please just ONE who was THERE."

The Answer...Srila Prabhupada said he was being poisoned.

(Refer to the Prabhupada conversation Books)
------------------------------------
If Srila Prabhupada was just a child in the hands of these plotters why didn't they turn of the tape recorder from which the conversation book was compiled?

Come on I was there, were you Balaram? Is there anyone on this forum who was there and thinks Srila Prabhupada was forced by his disciples? Anyone???

Posted by Anon @ 12/13/2005 06:40 AM PST

Please enlighten me. Who is this Amoghalila das? I read his 2002 conversation with Srila Prabhupada. Is this for real? What were the circumstances surrounding this conversation? Where? How long? Under what conditions? Dream? Vision? Channelling? is this accepted by ISKCON? Is Amhogalila still in ISKCON?

Posted by Trivikrama Swami @ 12/13/2005 06:27 AM PST

Dear Bh. Mark

I was there with Srila Prabhupada in his last days in Vrndaban. No one treated him like a child. He was very much the Master until the very end. Why do you insult him in this way. Please direct me to ONE person who was there in those days, and there were many, who think he was kidnaped or poisoned. Please just ONE who was THERE.

But don't take my word, consult with your friend Amoghalila Prabhu, he has written a whole paper on this issue.

Ys TS

Posted by Balarama @ 12/13/2005 06:27 AM PST

TV Swami you asked, " Please direct me to ONE person who was there in those days, and there were many, who think he (Srila Prabhupada) was kidnaped or poisoned. Please just ONE who was THERE."

The Answer...Srila Prabhupada said he was being poisoned.

(Refer to the Prabhupada conversation Books)

Posted by Trivikrama Swami @ 12/13/2005 06:15 AM PST

Dear Bh. Mark

I was there with Srila Prabhupada in his last days in Vrndaban. No one treated him like a child. He was very much the Master until the very end. Why do you insult him in this way. Please direct me to ONE person who was there in those days, and there were many, who think he was kidnaped or poisoned. Please just ONE who was THERE.

But don't take my word. Please consult with your friend Amoghalila Prabhu, he has written a whole paper on this issue.

Ys TS

Posted by Bhakta Ray @ 12/13/2005 06:05 AM PST

The Caitya-guru is within us, Anon. dasa. An indispensible authority. If it had been up to me, I would have allowed myself to be initiated by Rameswara.

Posted by Anon @ 12/13/2005 06:01 AM PST

Mark and Bhakta Ray: The caitya guru is among us.

Posted by Mark @ 12/13/2005 05:00 AM PST

Dear Bhakta Ray,

please accept my respectful obeisances,

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada,

Your post is a breath of fresh air to me, and it seems my cries during morning prayers have been answered in a way.

I agree with your conclusions about the umambiguous nature of the problem which makes it easy to identify. Coming up with solutions about how to deal with all those who are blaspheming the memory and public image of Srila Prabhupada, and stealing the properties of his Iskcon structure are what I am here to discuss. This is after all a place where discussions MAY take place.

The arguements come when people appear here in literary form, and under the guise of defenders of Iskcon and all the "sincere" devotees, are in truth attempting to stymie any discussion and cast ad hominem aspersions on those who are trying to discuss. I will debate, argue with, and unveil these persons for who they are as a form of neglect, which is the order to all devotees who aspire to be mudhyama adhikari. They will not fool one more innocent person with their weak sophistry while I am around.

Honestly, I wish this forum was more heavily moderated because productive discussion is quickly derailed by the need to dispatch of these rogues, and that is the conscious or unconscious intent of such saboteurs.

By example, I decided at one point to hear all factions positions. To that end, I participated in the IRM forum. Talk about solution oriented discussion! And when people arrived flaming and hissing, they were dealt with compassionately (a little overly so at first IMO) and firmly. Usually this had no effect to change their behavior so they were just plain banned from the venue. However, due to the patience and skill of some folks there, some of these people were thouroughly disarmed and while maybe not 100 percent convinced in the end of all the points, wound up at least being civil, courteous, and discussing their differences. I saw some misguided people who blundered onto the forum "defending" their "gurus" truly grow and mature as human beings.

And as far as Vaisnava Aparadha is concerned. I have read the high standards regarding such. I have read just about every order and wish of Srila Prabhupada.

So I am aspiring that through my sincerity, my behavior will over time be purified to conform to that ideal. But I won't fake it.
I won't some how look a child molestor or their apologist in the face and see them as a pure devotee because it doesn't come naturally yet. I still see distinctions between people. Some day when the process of sadhana bhakti has done more of its magic, I might become pure, and be able to deliver such persons.

But I am not Srila Prabhupada. I don't have the stuff to allow a bunch of rascals to kidnap me and still treat them like my own children.

This is the difference between grasping concepts in theory, and being able to practice them.

Come to think of it, I do not think it is an offense to chastise someone who is claiming to be a Vaisnava while acting differently.

The offense would come by speaking an untruth about them in order to justify one's agenda. Or by not being constructive and temperate with suggested punishments or solutions. If we really care about the spiritual advancement of someone who is a repeat offender of crimes against other humans, we must make sure they get proper rehabilitation for their own good.

If we simply say "keep chanting" and let them go at that, they will "keep chanting" and using the strength of the holy name to justify their crimes until the Lord sends someone else with the courage and true compassion to set them straight.

Thank You Bhakta Ray.

Hare Krishna

y.s.

Mark

Posted by Bhakta Ray @ 12/13/2005 03:40 AM PST

Stepping oh so carefully through this mine field of Vaisnava aparathas, I've noticed that the topic has been somewhat sidetracked in a tangle of counter-arguments to counter-arguments.
Correct me if I'm wrong, (and I'm sure there is every possibility of being corrected even if I'm right) but this blog isn't about Rocana Prabhu and speculations about his motives.
It's about what can be loosely termed the 'guru problem' in ISKCON and the many responses to it. Why should this matter be so complicated? I was living in and working in ISKCON LA when Prabhupada was conducting initiations through ritvik acaryas that he personally appointed. I remained even during the zonal acarya fiasco. To say the least, the fall down of Rameswara sent shock waves through New Dwarka and his disciples. They now find themselves 're-initiated', despite so many sastras and purports about the diksa guru being eternal. Perhaps this unfortunate term is a face-saving device but the conclusion is inescapable. These devotees were NOT initiated to begin with. How can this be? Wasn't there a fire sacrifice? What about all those guru pujas? The new sanskrit names etc..
Could it be that it is not enough for a member of ISKCON to have been designated as a diksa guru by the GBC? Could it be that religious ritual does not suffice?
Could it be that he must be QUALIFIED on independent criteria?
And what are those criteria?

"When one has attained the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru." (Madhya 24.331 purport)

"One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master." (NOI 5)

This is unambiguous. The guru must be uttama-adhikari. How does one know who is uttama-adhikari? Because the GBC says so? Is GBC now guru? Is GBC Spiritual Master?
Has Prabhupada said anything of the kind?
No. He has left instructions. There is sastra, there is sadhu.
It does not say "guru, sadhu, sastra and GBC".

“Mundane votes have no jurisdiction to elect a Vaisnava acarya. A Vaisnava acarya is self-effulgent, and there is no need for any court judgment.” (Purport Madhya 1.220)
My guru in the heart, my Caitya-guru has not yet alerted me of such an effulgence at present in ISKCON.
What is there to argue about?

Posted by Mark @ 12/12/2005 05:56 PM PST

Uh, just make sure they are Srila Prabhupada's originals without the rascal changes, or you'll be Sorry!

How do you like them scare tactics?

BOO!

Posted by Anon @ 12/12/2005 04:43 PM PST

All glories to Pat Prabhu! Gee, this could also be directed somewhat at Rocana das. This whole blog is getting silly now. Yes, ISKCON will endure. As for me, I'm getting bhakti-ized and think I will head down to the temple this Xmas marathon and distribute Srila Prabhupada's books. How glorious!

Posted by Mark @ 12/12/2005 04:40 PM PST

Hare Krishna

What can I say Pat? Toe the line and you two might get voted in to be a Diksa Guru who gets First Class Prasadam, Health Benefits, and the chance to say what you want when you want as long as it doesn't actually address the core issues of the day.

I'll just stick to being an impure kanistha-mudhyama devotee who will lambaste any envious fool who claims they are a devotee in a public forum, when I can see they really are not. Until I get my fill of that sense gratification, apparently the Lord has set up an endless supply of said characters lining up in my sights. Oh my what a great way to serve.

I respect no title or office in this material world. Only sincere people. And for the sincere who have made big mistakes, though I am stern and pointed, I am very accomodating and lenient, because I was no different.

I wish you would stop being so hypocritical and just not associate with me if you think I am such a bad guy. You are breaking the rules buddy.

Hare Krishna

Posted by Pat @ 12/12/2005 03:58 PM PST

Dear Mark,

This latest with Amoghalila Prabhu shows your desperation. Come up with something better.

Previously you said to me: The fear you may be feeling is because you are way out of line, and have no leg to stand on in the face of the truth.

Prabhu, you may scare the illuminate but not me because I HAVE KRSNA. I can say this convincingly. You and the IRM are way out of line, not I.

What face of the truth are you referring to? If you feel that your way is correct and truthful and is in line with what Prabhupada wanted for Iskcon, why are you not in control of Iskcon? Why does Krsna keep you on the fringes and allow this movement to continue so gloriously? You just have to open your eyes with sincerity and then you will see how glorious this movement is going on. There are problems but they are being rectified from within. This is Krsna’s arrangement. Please do not refer to the zonal acarya system or the July 9th letter etc, this is all chewing the chewed - as was mentioned. I have read your arguments for the system of rtvik and it does not come anywhere close to convincing. The arguments against rtvik initiation are overwhelmingly convincing.

Do you think that devotees are gullible? Devotees are intelligent and the only way they will come to your way of thinking is through brainwashing and fear. This is your modus operandi. This is clearly shown in your statements. You said that you belonged to an underground revolutionary movement doing battle with the government and that you are prepared to transform these efforts against Iskcon devotees (my definition of devotees include the leaders).The IRM is actually a resistance movement in disguise.

You say: On the other forums where I post regarding sensitive matters, provocateurs, saboteurs, and other agents of ill-will have been largely banished due to neglect, skilful exposure, or flat out banishment.

How can any sincere devotee seriously take you as a spiritual guide strictly representing Srila Prabhupada when you are involved in such things as stated above. By your assertion, you know what is best for Iskcon. How can this be so? Someone who knows what is best for Iskcon will be fully aligned with the mood of Srila Prabhupada and not get involved in provocateurs, saboteurs and agents of ill-will and such nonsense. What spiritual vision for leadership can such a person have?

Your “Back to Prabhupada” magazine should be renamed The Aparadah. You and the IRM are first class in blasphemy and you actually wish the devotees ill will. When a devotee falls down, you rejoice. Just like this wishful statement you make below.

You said to Trivikrama Swami: your sincerity is the only thing separating your ArchAngelic ego from a tremendous descent.

What kind of statement is this? Why will you even consider that Maharaja will have a fall down? What kind of mentality is this for a supposed leader? How can Srila Prabhupada and Krsna be pleased with this attitude? You and the IRM will never get control of Iskcon. Krsna is in control and He will not tolerate this blasphemous attitude.

The following is an extract from a letter to Tusta Krishna dasa that YOU posted on this forum recently and it shows how you should give respect to devotees. You should try to understand first before posting.

Prabhupada: If anyone thinks like that, that a pure devotee should be obeyed and no one else, that means he is a nonsense. We advise everyone to address one another as Prabhu. Prabhu means master, so how the master should be disobeyed? Others, they are also pure devotees. All of my disciples are pure devotees. Anyone sincerely serving the spiritual master is a pure devotee.

To you, the leaders of Iskcon are not devotees but here Srila Prabhupada says they are “pure devotees” because they are serving sincerely. Of course the word pure devotee here is used differently from a pure devotee as in an uttamadhikari, but Srila Prabhupada is seeing the pure potential in the devotees. In one sense, they are already pure because there is no turning back; it is only a matter of time. How will Krsna be pleased by your offences to these devotees? Do you still think the IRM can get control of Iskcon from Krsna.

Most of the leaders doing service in Iskcon are sincere. If you become free from this offensive and envious mentality, you will be able to see this. To become free from this mentality, you need to associate with these devotees, be humble and submissive. Instead of distributing that offensive Back to Prabhupada magazine, try participating in this years Prabhupada marathon, help distribute his books.

You say: So does anyone have something practical to offer regarding how we can follow Srila Prabhupada's request that we cooperate with one another to show how much we love and value what he gave us?

Yes, we all agree that there are problems within Iskcon but you have to understand that changes can only come from within. So join Iskcon and work for change from within. However, as a rtvik, this may be difficult for you. You will not be satisfied with anything less than total control. This is why you have revolutionary tendencies. Krsna will never allow this.

Your servant
Pat

Posted by Mark @ 12/12/2005 10:46 AM PST

Dear Praghosa Das,

Rocana Dasa says:

"I welcome the opportunity to explore these issues more deeply. It will require the work of others far more spiritually elevated than I to present to the world the unalloyed version of Srila Prabhupada’s purpose and pastimes. I sincerely pray that I can make a small contribution or play a part in establishing this truth."

He also says:

"Anyone aligning themselves with today’s ISKCON, Gaudiya Matha or Rtvik groups are inadvertently contributing to an unwanted transformation from spirituality to religiosity."

I think you know what he means by “today’s ISKCON”, as in, he does not see it to be aligned with Srila Prabhupada’s spiritual instructions and vision as he revealed it.

So instead of posting reams of redundant criticism, why don’t you act like one of the spiritually elevated persons he was reaching out to and offer some practical suggestions on how to bring ourselves back to a point where we will make advancement on this issue? He wants to explore the issues and discuss them. And here is what you offer.

Your first critical statement.

"I offer that this site - while perhaps very well intended - does not offer anything more than less than "Absolute Suggestions" for how to deal with either one's inability or unwillingness to work cooperatively with the simple formula provided us by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada for sharing receiving and sharing this Krsna Consciousness."

Some offering. So where is your absolute suggestion??? Or at least constructive criticism???

All I see that you factually offered in this regard are the following.

"It is this Parampara - with His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada permenently fixed up as the current link to this Parampara by means of his Bhaktivedanta Purports, that will generate the needed confidence in our hearts to fully embrace the chanting of the Holy Names of Lord Krsna."

Ok, keep Srila Prabhupada at the Center and read his books. I don’t think Rocana Dasa has missed those points, or has ever suggested against them.

And next you say:

his (Rocana’s) effort to provide some form of solution to whatever he has come to view as the essential problems with Krsna Consciousness as they have manifested through ISKCON - is just speculative, specious arbitrary invention.

And then:

This being the case - thread after thread of "discussion" can be generated on so many subjects - but due to the fact that your basic premise is invention and does not conform to our Srila Prabhupada's direct instructions to us, your conclusions will never be accepted Absolutely and without that - they have no real value.

So it sounds to me that according to you, Rocana’s “invention” of discussing the problems we all face (except you perhaps?) does not conform to Srila Prabhupada’s direct instructions to us? Please.

What are you offering absolutely? Read the books. Ok thanks, for the advice. Other than that, since you don’t see discussion of real problems of much value, I guess I won’t be seeing you around here anymore so take good care and keep chanting!

Hari Bol

y.s.

Mark

Posted by praghosa das @ 12/12/2005 09:30 AM PST

In the interest of assiting the general flow of this thread, I thought it might be helpful to offer the conclusive statements or summary of the article "Sampradaya Acharya". Rocan prabhu sent this to me the other day and the following summary provides the clearest explantation for Rocan Prabhu's having established this website to begin with. Preaching is not discussing. There is only one way in which the Absolute Truth is revealed to the conditioned soul. It is revealed. It "descends" to us from Lord Krsna Himself - either directly - or via His pure devotee whom He empowers to present His message. Our Srila Prabupada stated this aboard the Jaladuta when he was arriving in Boston Harbor. He claimed that if Krsna wished for His message to be properly heard and accepted - He, Lord Krsna would provide the needed potency to accomplish "His purpose" in bringing Srila Prabhupada to the West.

What transpires here in this site is merely exchange of impression. What someone hears, employs and/or perceives is shared with others. Everyone takes a firm stance, some more so than others, yet no one accepts the presentation of anyone else - Absolutely; as if it is being spoken by the Supreme Personality of Goedhead Himself.

Srila Prabhupada once said in a letter he was writing to inspire his disciple to make every effort to distribute his books "What your 20 minute lecture will do? But if he takes one book then his life can be genuinely affected!" Srila Prabhupada's Bhaktivedanta purports are clear, concise, absolutely thorough and blessed with the "saffron particles of the dust of the Lotus Feet of the Divine Couple Sri Sri Radha Govinda. When Srila Prabhupada speaks we accept his words to be non-different from the direct speaking of Lord Krsna. Whatever he spoke is accepted like that by those who have actually accepted him as Lord Krsna's duly authorized representative. So we did not and do not argue with him There were a few that dared to do so - the result was their ruin.

I was once on a walk in Vrindavan in 1975 with His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. One of the sanyasis commented upon the loud noise and obnoxious fumes of a passing airliner "In Vaikuntha, the transcendental planes don't make such horrible sounds or emit such pollution."

"Oh - You have been to Vaikuntha recently?" Srila Prabhupada said as he looked at him very sarcastically.

"Oh no Srila Prabhupada. I meant that you describe this in your Srimad Bhagavatam purports" he immediately offered sheepishly, realizing how pretentious he must have sounded with this comment to someone we all accepted as being in direct contact with the denizens of Vaikuntha.

"Yes!" said His Divine Grace. "We only repeat what is presented in Srimad Bhagavatam. What has been given by our Acharyas. We do not invent."

I would invite the readers and those who participate in the "discussions" here - myself included - to read very very carefully the conclusions of HG Rocan Prabhu as they pertain to his article "Sampradaya Acharya".

These "conclusions" serve as his explanation for arranging his stance vis a vis - all others within and without ISKCON. These "conclusions" serve as the foundation for his initiating this website.

I offer that this site - while perhaps very well intended - does not offer anything more than less than "Absolute Suggestions" for how to deal with either one's inability or unwillingness to work cooperatively with the simple formula provided us by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada for sharing receiving and sharing this Krsna Consciousness.

My continued use of the word "simple" should not be taken to imply that the process of Krsna consciousness is "EASY". The two words are not meant to be taken like this. The process or technique for bench pressing 10 pounds or 300 pounds is simple and exactly the same. However to lift 300 pounds is not as "easy" as it is to press 10 pounds.

Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu said about Himself (though clearly for our benefit) - "Durdaivam Idrsm Ihajani NA-ANURAGAH" - though it is simple, I have no desire"!

This is our only problem. NO Desire! Now how is this desire acquired? By sincerely and even more importantly, gratefully serving the Lord and His servants.

We initiate our serving of the pure devotees - by hearing "submssively" from them - how to effectively act upon the instructions of our spotless Parampara. This submission however is not given to anyone less than he who is speaking directly for Lord Krsna. Unless we are confident that our so-called spiritual master is speaking for Krsna - why on earth would we surrender our free will to arbitrary, speculative invention? It is this Parampara - with His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada permenently fixed up as the current link to this Parampara by means of his Bhaktivedanta Purports, that will generate the needed confidence in our hearts to fully embrace the chanting of the Holy Names of Lord Krsna.

I want to say that though Rocan Prabhu's intentions may be of the highest sort - his effort to provide some form of solution to whatever he has come to view as the essential problems with Krsna Consciousness as they have manifested through ISKCON - is just speculative, specious arbitrary invention. This being the case - thread after thread of "discussion" can be generated on so many subjects - but due to the fact that your basic premise is invention and does not conform to our Srila Prabhupada's direct instructions to us, your conclusions will never be accepted Absolutely and without that - they have no real value. Likewise - this forum will subsequently attract similarly speculative individuals who reject Srila Prabhupada's authority - all the while claiming the opposite.

I challenge anyone - including Rocan prabhu himself - to carefully read the following closing comments of your article - and demonstrate how your conlusions - and thus this website - rooted in these conclusions - beginning with "Anyone aligning themselves with today’s ISKCON, Gaudiya Matha or Rtvik groups are inadvertently contributing to an unwanted transformation from spirituality to religiosity." - could possibly find the sublime process for taking shelter of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu - in all its details - genuinely and unequivocally presented as was done by our Srila Prabhupada and his eager, authorized Temple Presidents from 1966 until 1977.

I maintain that your presentation is not what Srila Prabhupada gave us. It is invention and not blessed with the saffron particles of the dust of the Lotus feet of Lord Krsna. Its purpose is not to direct the reader's attention to the simplicity of the process nor is it designed to make the adoption of THAT SIMPLE PROCESS - EASY.

I contend that it will produce endless "discussion" but unless our "20 minute lecture or discussion" brings us to the faithful position of accepting Srila Prabhupada's presentation of the teachings of the spotless Parampara and his direct instructions as to how to most easily introduce those instructions - it will not yield the effects desired by Srila Prabhupada and every living being looking for the means to make the mission of his human form of life successful.

I do not take issue with Rocan prabhu personally. I am certain that like all my Godbrothers he is every bit as eager to see Srila Prabhupada's mission successfully established. I am not contesting his devotion to His Divine Grace whatsoever.

I contest only the conclusions of this paper "Sampradaya Acharya" as they pertain to Srila Prabhupada's instructions in certain details of devotional service. I trust that Rocan will only address my comments in this manner as well.

Respectfully Praghosa Das

"Anyone aligning themselves with today’s ISKCON, Gaudiya Matha or Rtvik groups are inadvertently contributing to an unwanted transformation from spirituality to religiosity. In a religious setting, our spiritual advancement stagnates due to the institutional restrictions placed on inquisitive philosophical spirituality. The current guru-tattva positions deceive us into thinking the diksa/acarya, organizational elite or the Rtvik group-think have some measure of exclusive control over the transcendental knowledge offered by the Sampradaya Acaryas. The Absolute Truth clearly states that no living entity or worldly institution can claim to have controlling power over the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If the Caitya guru/Lord of the Heart chooses to benedict the sincere seeker with admission to the secrets of the Sampradaya, there is no restriction -- not even by protocol such as “only through diksa initiation".

Granted, under ideal circumstances such as those found in ancient Vedic culture, it is preferable to follow the prescribed sequence of events: when the diksa guru departs, his disciples begin to initiate. In that age, however, highly qualified diksa gurus were abundant. For us, the reality of spreading Krsna consciousness worldwide requires practical arrangements other than the traditional formula, which cannot facilitate this phenomenon today. Srila Prabhupada's initiation program, for example, was far from traditional. The current Sampradaya Acarya advocated the proliferation of the Sampradaya teachings by massive book distribution throughout the planet. Those who are impacted by books authored by the bonafide representative of the Sampradaya may come to the temples, ashrams, and even the Internet for association. This is the merciful, far-reaching, visionary spirit of the Sampradaya Acarya, which cannot be compared to the restrictive, artificial barriers imposed by the institution or the religionists.

"The idea of an organized church in an intelligible form, indeed, marks the close of the living spiritual movement. The great ecclesiastical establishments are the dikes and the dams to retain the current that cannot be held by any such contrivances. They, indeed, indicate a desire on the part of the masses to exploit a spiritual movement for their own purpose. They also unmistakably indicate the end of the absolute and unconventional guidance of the bona-fide spiritual teacher."
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur

In the minds of the leaders of these religious groups, giving prominence to the siksa guru threatens to undermine their power base. Diksa initiation is their greatest tool for maintaining power. The telltale indication that religiosity is eclipsing spirituality is the degree of aggressive close-mindedness aimed at those perceived to hold and expound opinions that differ from the camp’s 'absolute' creed. The member’s unquestioning allegiance to the religious group’s unique perspective on tattva is paramount, insulating the group supporter from scrutiny of other sastric considerations. Accurate appraisal of an individual's character, motivation, qualities, behavior, and so on, become based not on the principles found within the Sampradaya siddhanta, but rather on loyalty to the organization. By definition, the “science of self-realization” depends upon the spiritualist’s objectivity and inquisitiveness, which is the antithesis of blind obedience to religious doctrine interpreted exclusively by those protecting their power base.

The bonafide Acaryas, representatives of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, indiscriminately distribute the transcendental knowledge that culminates in Pure Love of Godhead. Anyone who has developed a thorough understanding of the essential intentions of the nitya-siddha Acarya is a true Guru, whatever prefix one assigns to the Guru title. Unfortunately, the role and importance of the siksa guru in spreading the Sankirtan Movement is not emphasized in the institutional context.

Not only is the siksa position a safe alternative because it eliminates the risks of philosophical deviation, it also provides many practical spiritual benefits. The sastric definition of siksa guru encompasses a much wider range of potential spiritual relationships than does diksa. Siksa requires no absolute eternal commitment on the part of either disciple or guru, so there is less chance for aparada if the relationship declines.

There is no precise definition concerning how a disciple should worship their siksa guru, which reduces pressure on the disciple to make the diksa the exclusive focus of all loving affections. If siksa relationships are the norm within the Vaisnava Community, then there is a far greater chance that Srila Prabhupada will remain the highest standard of purity and respect for all siksa disciples. By keeping Srila Prabhupada at the center, the disciple is relieved of the potential for a great deal of bewilderment which can lead to a loss of faith.

The siksa disciple’s ultimate desire is to please and serve the Sampradaya Acarya (the pre-eminent siksa). The siksa disciple may have the satisfaction and confidence of knowing that their primary object of affection, Srila Prabhupada, is unquestionably a transparent via media to Sri Krsna. In other words, they have undeniably been admitted into the Sampradaya, and there will be no chance of fall down of the Acarya.

According to Vaisnava philosophy, one can aspire and diligently apply oneself to the spiritual process in expectation that in the next life, you can directly associate with Srila Prabhupada. Under this scenario, a traditional diksa relationship can eventually transpire. In the meantime, there are plenty of qualified living siksa gurus who are completely dedicated to serving Srila Prabhupada and to assisting the aspiring disciple in obtaining his or her goal.

Diksa gurus tend to want the independence to adapt, change or “personalize” the previous Sampradaya Acarya's program and mood. Most diksa gurus hanker for their own independent ashram or institution, occupied primarily by those who are their cent percent followers. Siksa gurus, on the other hand, tend to follow closely the Acarya's established mood and program, and are less likely to run the risk of changing the Founder/Acarya's established undertaking.

Prabhupada: "Then so siksa and diksa-guru... A siksa-guru who instructs against the instruction of spiritual, he is not a siksa guru. He is a demon. Siksa-guru, diksa-guru means... Sometimes a diksa-guru is not present always. Therefore one can take learning, instruction, from an advanced devotee. That is called the siksa-guru. Siksa-guru does not mean he is speaking something against the teachings of the diksa-guru/Acarya. He is not a siksa-guru. He is a rascal."
Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Bhagavad-gita 17:1-3, 07-04-74, Honolulu

Siksa disciples are free to search out other siksa gurus who may be better qualified to satisfy their various spiritual interests and needs without having their educational pursuits sanctioned and/or vetoed by a disagreeable diksa. If the disciple’s affections lie with Srila Prabhupada, then the words and actions of the siksa guru can be freely scrutinized based on Srila Prabhupada's writings, without risking offense.

Siksa affords an opportunity for serious followers of the Sampradaya Acarya who are inspired to teach and preach to assume the role of guru without running the risk of committing offenses that result in karmic reaction to himself or the disciple. Sastra dictates that there is no karmic burden placed upon the siksa guru, whereas there is an assumed acceptance of vi-karma of the new initiate upon the diksa guru. Those who are not in a spiritual position to give diksa, but pretentiously project themselves as bonafide, are actually only giving siksa, because they are not transparent via media conduits for the disciple's past karmic reactions. The unsuspecting disciples are deceived into believing they have been freed from karma, and the unqualified diksa guru accumulates karma without being able to transfer it to the spiritual realm.

Siksa places the power to determine one’s spiritual path in the hands of the individual seeker. Advocating an emphasis on the siksa alternative will likely reduce the institutional power base of die-hard diksa advocates, including the diksa gurus, the GBC, leaders of Rtvik organizations, and the Acarya-led Mathas.

Spiritual missions that are established by Sampradaya Acaryas should have as their primary focus an imperative to preach and teach the unalloyed message of the founder. While there will always be a role for diksa initiation in the spiritual community, nothing should eclipse our focus on the Sampradaya Acarya.

In Closing

I pray that I have presented my case for the recognition and appreciation of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada as a bonafide Sampradaya Acarya. For those readers who are moved by my arguments (either pro or con), and wish to discuss in greater detail, please contact me. I welcome the opportunity to explore these issues more deeply. It will require the work of others far more spiritually elevated than I to present to the world the unalloyed version of Srila Prabhupada’s purpose and pastimes. I sincerely pray that I can make a small contribution or play a part in establishing this truth. The only absolute conclusion I can make is that as an aspiring Vaisnava struggling to come up to the standard of being a disciple of a Sampradaya Acarya, I cannot take the spiritual risk of not totally embracing the conclusions I have arrived at and presented herein."

Rocana dasa
Vyasa Puja, 2003

Posted by Mark @ 12/12/2005 08:57 AM PST

Dear Devotees,

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Some of you may be familiar with Amoghalila Prabhu. I do not use the word Prabhu lightly here, because he is the epitome of a cent per cent disciple of Srila Prabhupada whose honesty is refreshing.

He was the devotee who broadcast in 1979 that he had conversations with Srila Prabhupada and did so to all the leadership in Iskcon. Apparently the only GBC guru with the purity to see the truth in these conversations and back Amoghalila Prabhu was none other than H.H. Trivikrama Swami.

Here is just a small portion of a letter that Amoghalila Prabhu wrote in Feb. 2003 to a dozen people, which was made public by one of the 12.

"At this crucial time in both ISKCON and world history, I would like to share an urgent message with you. Some of you know that, in 1979, I sent hundreds of photocopies of some "conversations with Srila Prabhupada" to senior devotees around the world, including all GBC members, temple presidents, and sannyasis. In these "conversations," Srila Prabhupada told me that he never intended that the eleven of his disciples who had become "zonal acaryas" should be given this big position. His Divine Grace denounced the new gurus' "vyasasanas" in the temples and particularly the "simultaneous guru puja" practice. The GBC excommunicated me from ISKCON shortly after I distributed these "conversations" and could not in good conscience comply with their demand that I reject them as false. I was also told that anyone who accepted that Srila Prabhupada had really given me these instructions would also be excommunicated.

Later, however, I became convinced that Srila Prabhupada wanted me to follow the GBC, and I accepted that these conversations had been simply a product of my imagination. Trivikram Swami, however, promoted them as bona fide instructions of our eternal Spiritual Master, and because of this for many years he was unwelcome and not allowed to give classes in almost all ISKCON temples. By about 1987, however, the instructions Srila Prabhupada had given me were implemented by the GBC (induced by the "Guru Reform Movement"), largely because Trivikram Swami so consistently promoted those "conversations with Srila Prabhupada" as factual. Many years later Trivikram Maharaja told me that the reason he was so convinced of them was that Srila Prabhupada had personally confirmed to him in a dream that these were indeed his own words."

The rest of this letter, and a synopsis of Amoghalila Prabhu’s original conversations and his trials in sharing them are on the same forum thread at Hindu Religion.NET. Other comments of value can be found there as well.

http://www.hindu-religion.net/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=hinduism&Number=42543&page=24&view=collapsed&sb=3&o=&fpart=all&vc=1

I am intrigued by this turn of events. It appears there may be a trojan horse within the largely compromised institution of Iskcon.

Interestingly, for all the Anti-Ritvik sentiment coming from very learned characters, though we are all imperfect to some degree, the CURRENT stance of the IRM is the closest in line with what Srila Prabhupada was desiring, according to Amoghalila Prabhu. This has evolved as the original bitter and strong reaction to the problems that were occurring, and indeed what some of the IRM leadership had helped foster, has in the balance become a mature critical approach along with some real honest solutions being implemented by the Temple Presidents who have aligned with the IRM.

Amoghalila himself says that the Ritviks, according to Srila Prabhupada are 90% correct. Their challenge remains how to integrate their proper understanding with those who still fight the good fight within the compromised Iskcon, and how to salvage gracefully what is good there. Srila Prabhupada offers some very pointed instructions on how this can be achieved.

To understand the prudence and caution in the IRM’s presentation of how to reinstitute the plans of their Acharya, one need only address questions to Yaduraja Das. They are taking it slow, considering all suggestions, and are very certain to compare everything to Srila Prabhupada’s exact instructions. Wherever their interpretive minds still make errors in terms of Srila Prabhupada’s instructions regarding becoming Guru and taking disciples, it is always on the side of caution, and if one were to read Amoghalila Prabhu’s position, one would see that the IRM is inches away from being directly parallel to how Srila Prabhupada is seeing the situation currently.

Of course so many people rail on the IRM and the word ritvik without the knowledge I have from extensive conversation with their secretarial representative. The naysayers are not taking into consideration that the IRM position has evolved, and that by endeavoring to remain true to Srila Prabhupada’s orders for all these years, despite a sometimes fanatic overliteralism, such a thing is bound to be very purifying!!!

So I will continue to check in here feeling that this association is another piece of the puzzle in a positive way, and will focus most of my attention on working with the local devotees who I consider my superiors as we implement Varnashrama Dharma practices as Srila Prabhupada directly recommended and was on his way to Gita Nagari to implement, before he was kidnapped by physically stronger “disciples”, who he referred to as RAVANA, at the end of his manifest Lila in Vrndavan. All by the Lord’s arrangement of course.

Hare Krishna

y.s.

Mark

Posted by bb das @ 12/12/2005 06:01 AM PST

To all interested readers,

Take a look at Siva's Maui Varnashram Site and see for your selves. We're not making this stuff up. It's not personal. It is a fact.

It is very clear that he is not in line with Srila Prabhupada and his Vision and teachings, forget about even the topic of Iskcon.

It's all concoction, creative at that and completely unauthorized by the previous Acarya and his mission.

This is a recipe for disaster.

SB 7.15.27 Purport:

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead gives real knowledge to the entire world, and the Spiritual Master, as the representative of the Supreme Godhead, carries the message throughout the world. Therefore, on the absolute platform, there is no difference between the spiritual master and the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

... The spiritual master is as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and therefore one who is very serious about spiritual advancement must regard the spiritual master in this way.

Even a slight deviation from this understanding can create disaster in the disciple's Vedic studies and austerities."

Siva and Rocan are very deviated despite all the excuses they may offer up (true or not), this is a recipe for disaster.

Some can hear it others not. Krsna says that if out of false ego you do not hear you will be lost.

ys
bb das

Posted by Anon @ 12/12/2005 04:41 AM PST

Hare Krsna: I think it prudent for all the bloggers to go to namahatta.org (the new website) and very carefully read the 20 pages of HH Radhanatha Swami's incredible spiritual counseling proposal that has already been fabulously successful at the Chowpatty/Mumbai ISKCON temple. I think it's a long time coming but finally here which should put this blog to rest??? Now, the goal will be to implement this in North America.

Posted by Trivikrama Swami @ 12/12/2005 03:18 AM PST

I had written:

"I don't want to put words in your mouth, and perhaps for you the jury is still out. But for Rocan Prabhu it seems clear that the die is cast. We learned in Psychology 101 that once a person make a monumental, life changing, decision they tend to continue to justify that decision throughout their life. Leaving Iskcon, especially in lieu of Srila Prabhupada's instuction to show our love for him by cooperating together, would certainly fit this category of monumental decisions.

Of course miracles do happen, but as I have been cautioned not to indulge in sentiment, I will have to admit that I don't expect it to come to pass. Of course this puts me in a difficult position regarding the offense of preaching to the faithless. However there does seem to be many innocent devotees tuning in here so let me reveal what I see for the future."

Rocan Prabhu's response:

"Mine was the only name mentioned in the first paragraph above. You're talking about my "monumental decision". Presumably the "miracle" you're not waiting for is for me to change my mind. And you don't want to commit offenses by preaching to the faithless. Are you referring to someone else? Who?"

I respond:
I did write the above and I was referring to you, however I don't see the word "insincere" there. That is called putting words into someone's mouth, even you use quotation marks.

Anyway the main point of my comments in that letter you failed to address.

This is what I said:

Srila Prabhupada is a saktyavesa avatara. Of course he is a jiva soul but he is directly empowered by Lord Nityananda. And what is that empowerment? He has been deputed to oversee the Krishna conscious society that he started for the next 10,000 years. That means that he has the power to communicate, not only through his books, but directly, with anyone who sincerely desires to follow and please him.

I can understand why you might not want to have faith in this idea. Considering your statement: "Many ex-TP's, like myself decided that it was too risky and foolhardy a move to make, and in hindsight, not going there was the best decision of their spiritual life. My old friend, Prithu dasa, is the latest glaring example of what eventually happens to those who took the plunge by going along to get along."

What if in fact Srila Prabhupada is not happy with the decision that you made as stated above? It is a possibility right! After all we are all conditioned souls so we can make mistakes.

Rather then face that possibility it seems to me that you prefer to imagine that although Srila Prabhupada is the "sampradaya acarya" he is for all practical purposes DEAD AND GONE!!!

Makes it convenient right? This way you and your friend Siva Prabhu can continue with our own plans and ideas without the need of any authority in your life. Of course you will very magnanimously allow others to have this independence from Srila Prabhupada's order also. But the order remains; "You will show your love for me by how you cooperate together for pushing on this movement."

Prabhupäda:
yasya deve parä bhaktir
yathä deve tathä gurau
tasyaite kathitä hy arthäù
prakäçante mahätmanaù
[ÇU 6.23]
This desire to serve guru is the qualification. Yasya deve para bhaktir yathä deve tathä gurau. In the spiritual life, this is the secret of success. Yasya deve parä bhaktir yathä... In many places. Our Gaudiya Matha people, those who were leaders, they wanted to supersede the order of Guru Mahäräja. Therefore it was failure.

Conv. July 29, 1976.

Notice that Srila Prabhupada doesn't say that it failed because the Sampradaya acarya had left. Not it failed beause they didn't follow his order.

Posted by Rocana dasa @ 12/11/2005 10:30 PM PST

Dear Trivikrama Swami, on Dec 10th you wrote:

"I don't want to put words in your mouth, and perhaps for you the jury is still out. But for Rocan Prabhu it seems clear that the die is cast. We learned in Psychology 101 that once a person make a monumental, life changing, decision they tend to continue to justify that decision throughout their life. Leaving Iskcon, especially in lieu of Srila Prabhupada's instuction to show our love for him by cooperating together, would certainly fit this category of monumental decisions.

Of course miracles do happen, but as I have been cautioned not to indulge in sentiment, I will have to admit that I don't expect it to come to pass. Of course this puts me in a difficult position regarding the offense of preaching to the faithless. However there does seem to be many innocent devotees tuning in here so let me reveal what I see for the future."

Posted by shiva das @ 12/11/2005 05:57 PM PST

Jai Radhe Trivikrama Maharaja.

You wrote:

They context you used the word concerned seemed to me to be anxious and troubled, it is that which I disagree with."---------------------------------------------------------------------------On the spiritual side both definitions are applicable. But that is where we really differ. You think the society that Srila Prabhupada created is material and I think it is spiritual. Just like the Ganga remains pure even if we see stool and dead bodies floating in it. So yes Srila Prabhupada was in anxiety over the future of Iskcon. Just as Mother Yasoda was anxious about the welfare of Krishna. That kind of anxiety is wanted.

mac-cittah sarva-durgani mat-prasadat tarisyasi atha cet tvam ahankaran na srosyasi vinanksyasi

If you become conscious of Me, you will pass over all the obstacles of conditional life by My grace. If, however, you do not work in such consciousness but act through false ego, not hearing Me, you will be lost.

PURPORT

A person in full Krsna consciousness is not unduly anxious to execute the duties of his existence. The foolish cannot understand this great freedom from all anxiety. For one who acts in Krsna consciousness, Lord Krsna becomes the most intimate friend. He always looks after His friend's comfort, and He gives Himself to His friend, who is so devotedly engaged working twenty-four hours a day to please the Lord. Therefore, no one should be carried away by the false ego of the bodily concept of life. One should not falsely think himself independent of the laws of material nature or free to act. He is already under strict material laws. But, as soon as he acts in Krsna consciousness, he is liberated, free from the material perplexities. One should note very carefully that one who is not active in Krsna consciousness is losing himself in the material whirlpool, in the ocean of birth and death. No conditioned soul actually knows what is to be done and what is not to be done, but a person who acts in Krsna consciousness is free to act because everything is prompted by Krsna from within and confirmed by the spiritual master.

isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati bhramayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani mayaya


The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy.

PURPORT

Arjuna was not the supreme knower, and his decision to fight or not to fight was confined to his limited discretion. Lord Krsna instructed that the individual is not all in all. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, or He Himself, Krsna, the localized Supersoul, sits in the heart directing the living being. After changing bodies, the living entity forgets his past deeds, but the Supersoul, as the knower of the past, present and future, remains the witness of all his activities. Therefore all the activities of living entities are directed by this Supersoul. The living entity gets what he deserves and is carried by the material body which is created in the material energy under the direction of the Supersoul. As soon as a living entity is placed in a particular type of body, he has to work under the spell of that bodily situation. A person seated in a high-speed motorcar goes faster than one seated in a slower car, though the living entities, the drivers, may be the same. Similarly, by the order of the Supreme Soul, material nature fashions a particular type of body to a particular type of living entity to work according to his past desires. The living entity is not independent. One should not think himself independent of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The individual is always under His control.

Posted by bb das @ 12/11/2005 12:09 PM PST

Rocan das:
dedication to “we are the only way” and "never leave ISKCON" fantasies. My primary concern is that their fantasy philosophy is being so widely promoted as being a part of our Vaisnava Sampradaya’s siddhanta.

bb das:

Following strictly the orders of the Spiritual Master is part of our siddhanta Prabhu. I thought you would understand that. My point was not that we are the only way. I am saying if you are a disciple or follower of Srila Prabhupada then we are duty bound to strictly follow his instructions. I quoted Srila Prabhupada’s extensive instructions for us not to leave Iskcon. You yourself finally say in your post that, “In my mind, I've never left Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON, and never will.” That’s my point. We definitely agree that what is going on in the name of Iskcon is not Iskcon. That is fair game to expose the cheating. But not all are cheaters and fanatically worshipping “The Institution”. I think it is not very Braminical to generalize like I see being done. Just my thought on the matter.

Rocan das:
He is on a mission as extoller of the skewed logic of eternal absolute loyalty to whatever organization is presently calling itself ISKCON.

bb das:
Again you misunderstand and generalize. I am on a mission of ”eternal absolute loyalty” to follow Srila Prabhupada’s instructions “as it is”. I have faith Srila Prabhupada and Krsna will rectify the situation. That’s my faith Prabhu and I cannot change it nor should I.

Rocan das:
I hate to remind BB dasa of the unfortunate fact, but HDG Gaura Govinda Swami left the planet a long time ago, and he is now obliged to rely upon his own intelligence and prayers in order to come to a realistic conclusion.

bb das:
I rely upon my Revered Spiritual Master’s instructions Prabhu. That is my intelligence.That is my absolute reference point.

Rocan das:
All the letters BB pastes in as evidence were relevant during the manifest lila period of the senders, namely Srila Prabhupada and Gaura Govinda Swami. I didn’t read in those letters that either stated that their instructions to remain in ISKCON was to be a post-samadhi order.

bb das:
With all do respect. This is your speculation/ concoction. I understand your fried (and from the sounds of your story, rightfully so) but, it is still a concoction.

Rocan das:
Have you considered that Gaura Govinda Swami may have departed the planet for similar reasons?

bb das:
Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja was no doubt frustrated with the lack of cooperation and the twisting of Vaisnava siddhanta in Iskcon. We asked Maharaja if we shouldn’t just leave Iskcon. We assured him that we had men and money and would help Maharaja travel the world and preach to his hearts content. He emphatically shouted, “ I will never leave Iskcon!” He went on to explain that Srila Prabhupada had given him a personal instruction to “tolerate and cooperate”. He said he was duty bound to follow that order. Although, Maharaja felt himself in a dilemma because he also understood that when the siddhanta is being changed and Vaisnavas are being abused, one should not tolerate. He was constantly offering prayers to Srila Prabhupada and Mahaprabhu in this regard.

Rocan das:
My conclusion is that it is an individual, personal choice to join, stay or leave ISKCON. It is not, however, an absolute “order” to remain,

bb das:
My conclusion is that I have No choice but to follow the orders and instructions of my Spiritual Masters, no matter how difficult it may get. That’s were my faith is, sorry if that doesn’t line up with your Site or personal opinion.

I hope these offerings are helpful to some. I wouldn’t want it to turn into Religiosity otherwise.

ys

bb das

Posted by Mark @ 12/11/2005 11:26 AM PST

Dear Rocana Dasa,

I had planned to stay away, for a while at least, but was asked to check in one last time since I was still online.

Glad I did.

After reading your latest offering, the enormity of the burden of my position has hit home more acutely. We do not differ in our understanding. I simply have decided to do whatever I can to prevent anyone from using the Word Iskcon and its properties of all types in a way that reflects poorly on the Spiritual Ideal of it's founder. I see you are already accomplishing that in your own way. I, due to my particular level of material tendency, am in a thicker layer of the concrete, yet I see your concrete results as well. Thanks for your consideration and your fine work.

And for the record in general, my understanding is that any purified devotional servant, who is free to come and go from the material plane, can and often will act on the subtle AND gross material planes, in the earth sphere, after death. Especially if they leave disciples behind. Their real transcendental sentiment practically mandates this in their heart, and there is no difference between the bliss of union or vipralumba that they can experience by doing that as opposed to maintaining an exclusive presence and awareness in Goloka Vrndavan.

Since this is a real capability of a Jiva soul, empowered by the Lords internal potency, and Srila Prabhupada has directly said that he would do that for his disciples in that letter to Tusta Krishna that I posted below, I believe he alone reserves the right to choose whether he does so or not.

And so, regarding any speculation as to the effect that he is currently in Goloka popping ladus into Sri Gopal's lotus mouth and is thus unavailable to come back to earth and being concerned about an old disciple, I say prove it!!!!!!

So many places it is stated that such devotees actually have experiences of their direct service in the spiritual sky internally while inhabiting a body serving on earth anyway. Maya-varupa and all that. Please don't make me go rooting through the veda base.

So take heart anyone who gets a visit, it just might be Srila Prabhupada, and if that gives you strength than good for you.

Hare Krishna

y.s.

Mark

Posted by Trivikrama @ 12/11/2005 11:02 AM PST

Rocan Prabhu has stated:

"I would also like to address Trivikrama Swami's recent comments, calling me "insincere" for having left ISKCON,"

Why are you putting words in my mouth Prabhu? Show me where I use the word "insincere".

Posted by Rocana dasa @ 12/11/2005 10:40 AM PST

Dear Mark,

Forgive my lateness in responding to your pointed questions. I am working on the reponse. I tend to be slower in posting than many of the super-fast minds here. I'm also up to my ears in business & personal activities at the moment. If you really don't plan to keep reading the Sun Blogs (and I hope you will!) please send me your email address and I'll let you know when I've responded.

your servant,
Rocana dasa

Posted by Rocana dasa @ 12/11/2005 10:38 AM PST

The ISKCON “lock step” paranoid types like BB das unfortunately tend to be double sufferers, since they are afflicted not only by the real world, like the rest of us, but also by their dedication to “we are the only way” and "never leave ISKCON" fantasies. My primary concern is that their fantasy philosophy is being so widely promoted as being a part of our Vaisnava Sampradaya’s siddhanta.

BB dasa, an abbreviation for the “Big Blogger”, is a cut & paste, caps aficionado. He is on a mission as extoller of the skewed logic of eternal absolute loyalty to whatever organization is presently calling itself ISKCON. He reminds me of the unwashed sans-culottes who were duped into storming the Bastille.

I hate to remind BB dasa of the unfortunate fact, but HDG Gaura Govinda Swami left the planet a long time ago, and he is now obliged to rely upon his own intelligence and prayers in order to come to a realistic conclusion.

All the letters BB pastes in as evidence were relevant during the manifest lila period of the senders, namely Srila Prabhupada and Gaura Govinda Swami. I didn’t read in those letters that either stated that their instructions to remain in ISKCON was to be a post-samadhi order. BB employs a Krsna Kanta style Rtvik trick, demanding us to produce evidence that this instruction [like the July 9th letter] was to be rescinded after Srila Prabhupada's departure. As I just countered, the onus is on BB dasa to produce documentation that it was to apply for ever and ever, despite the reality that once these great souls depart they have no way of evaluating (let alone controlling) what direction ISKCON takes.

BB dasa's life circumstances appear to be somewhat different than others on this blog due to his absolute acceptance of Gaura Govinda Swami as a bona fide Spiritual Master, siksa or diksa. The fact that he remained in ISKCON after Srila Prabhupada disappeared, during which time he instructed his followers to also remain, that I understand. I stayed in ISKCON for over ten years after Srila Prabhupada's pastimes ended also. BB prabhu, perhaps you should consider the statement that Srila Prabhupada made concerning the fact that his Spiritual Master departed prematurely due to observing the negative direction that his mission was going. Or Praghosa’s post on Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s disappointment over his mission. Have you considered that Gaura Govinda Swami may have departed the planet for similar reasons? Just a thought! I didn’t have a close relationship with your Guru so I can’t say for sure, but I have read all the information made avialiable on-line. He was undoubtedly far more advanced than most of us. I have to make sure I use as much of my allotted life span as possible for making as much as advancement as possible due to the Kripa-bhakta aspect of my involvement with Srila Prabhupada.

You say that I haven’t addressed your questions or concerns on this issue. In a very recent blog, I gave what I thought was an extensive explanation of my thoughts on the matter. While I hate to double-post, I'm very rushed for this right now, so I'll quickly present it again. Please reply to exactly what I have stated rather than making further broad-brush generalizations in response. I wrote:

"My comprehension is that the original Gaudiya Matha and ISKCON, as they appeared during the lila periods of the most recent Sampradaya Acaryas, were modern manifestations of Lord Caitanya’s eternal Sankirtan Movement. Today, we have the perverted reflections.

Born again Christians repeatedly quote the phrase, “only through Christ can the truth [God) be known”. All nitya-siddha, Shaktavesa Avatars and direct incarnations of Godhead preach in this manner. According to time, place and circumstance they are indeed the only way. When Srila Prabhupada was performing his ISKCON lila pastimes, it was the very best spiritual course for everyone on the planet because it was a manifestation of Lord Caitanya’s Sankirtan Movement. Devotees imagining themselves to be members of the Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya should have recognized Srila Prabhupada to be a Sampradaya Acarya and as such, they should have rushed to participate in ISKCON, his preaching mission. Many of Srila Prabhupada’s direct followers joined and departed even before his lila wound itself up. To varying degrees, Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers helped, and some even tried to hinder the mission. As nitya-siddha Sampradaya Acaryas, our Srila Prabhupada and His Spiritual Master were of the same mind, mood, and mission as Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. During the last one hundred and fifty years, the eternal Sankirtan Movement has become re-manifest, as foretold by the Yuga Avatar himself.

The names "Gaudiya Matha" and "ISKCON" were essentially the practical preaching tools utilized by these Sampradaya Acaryas. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura had his own organization, which wasn’t inherited by his divine son. The legal entities established by these contemporary Sampradaya Acaryas were necessary organizational legal interfaces with the culture and time in which they appeared. They all are eternal associates of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, opening the floodgates of the Sankirtan Movement.

As Shiva dasa so nicely stated, we cannot limit the Supreme Personality of Godhead in any way or by any means. All efforts to limit the Lord are an indication of Mundane Religiosity taking hold. This religious phenomenon takes hold after the pastimes of the Sampradaya Acaryas disappear from sight. Even during the lila periods, neophytes are making arrangements to deviate from the course. At the very moment these transcendental personalities wind-up their lila, as is the case with Krsna lila, the interpersonal dynamics immediately change throughout the spiritual family.

We observe this phenomenal transformation on many mundane levels. Families, tribes, communities, countries, from time immemorial have experienced this truth when their leaders die. Our foundational sastras, Caitanya-caritamrta, Srimad Bhagavatam, what to speak of the Mahäbhärata and the Ramayana, contain numerous accounts of the earth-shattering ramifications directly resulting from the disappearance of exalted, divine personalities. Monarchs throughout history have seen it as a principle duty to produce a qualified heir to the throne so their efforts to provide peace, prosperity and stability throughout the kingdom will hopefully continue after their death. This legacy mindset found within the material world is but a perverted reflection of what takes place on the topmost level of existence. In Lord Krsna’s lila, he orchestrated the mass suicide of his entire dynasty in Dwarka so as to prevent the evitable disturbance resulting from quarreling over who is Lord Sri Krsna's rightful inheritor.

Srila Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati didn’t have offspring. Our Srila Prabhupada completely disinherited his children, saying he left his family because they weren't devotees. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura recognized his son to be a nitya-siddha sent by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Regardless, his other spiritually-oriented son, Lalita prasada, contested and fought with his brother. To this very day, a few members of Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON have sided with the Lalita Prasada group. So, why are we fighting amongst ourselves? It is just history repeating itself. As individual non-realized devotees, there is nothing we can do to prevent it from happening. As struggling, sincere followers of our Sampradaya Acaryas, we have to make the best of a bad bargain. Can we all just agree as self-confessed, fallen conditioned souls that we are mere sadhana-bhaktas at best?"

"I admit that there are many devotees, some of whom are my direct Godbrothers/sisters, who have transcended all the nonsense within ISKCON. They make the best out of a bad bargain so they can perform their prescribed service to Srila Prabhupada. Perhaps I was cursed shortly after joining due to being engaged in temple management. This is a service that has been redundant for many years in the manner and mood designed by Srila Prabhupada. I reached a crossroads a long ago: either jump onto the bandwagon going down the road to sannyasi, then on to GBC, then diksa guru, or retire in frustration. Many ex-TP's, like myself decided that it was too risky and foolhardy a move to make, and in hindsight, not going there was the best decision of their spiritual life. My old friend, Prithu dasa, is the latest glaring example of what eventually happens to those who took the plunge by going along to get along."

Posted by Trivikrama Swami @ 12/11/2005 10:17 AM PST

Shiva Prabhu has stated:

"Well Maharaja I used the word "concerned" in the context in which it seemed to me that you used it in. You made it seem like Srila Prabhupada was worried that Iskcon would end up like the Gaudiya Math. Of course he is concerned about people's well being if you are going to use the word "concerned" in a different way. If you look up the word concered there are in fact two definitions. From dictionary.com:

1. Interested and involved: sent a memorandum to those concerned.

2. Anxious; troubled

They context you used the word concerned seemed to me to be anxious and troubled, it is that which I disagree with."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
On the spiritual side both definitions are applicable. But that is where we really differ. You think the society that Srila Prabhupada created is material and I think it is spiritual. Just like the Ganga remains pure even if we see stool and dead bodies floating in it. So yes Srila Prabhupada was in anxiety over the future of Iskcon. Just as Mother Yasoda was anxious about the welfare of Krishna. That kind of anxiety is wanted.

Why not understand this simple point?

"Because of the present world situation, Krishna has descended in the form of the Krishna consciousness movement. This is quite natural, for without the Krishna consciousness movement the world cannot be peaceful and happy."
SB.10-1-17-purp.

"At present also, various demoniac states all over the world are increasing their military power in many ways, and the whole situation has become distressful. Therefore Krishna has appeared by His name, in the Hare Krishna movement, which will certainly diminish the burden of the world. Philosophers, religionists, and people in general must take to this movement very seriously, for man-made plans and devices will not help bring peace on earth. The transcendental sound Hare Krishna is not different from the person Krishna.
SB.10-1-22-purp.

Therefore Krishna has taken birth or taken shelter within the womb of the Krishna consciousness movement. Men of Kamsa's class, therefore, are very much afraid and are busy trying to stop this movement, especially in the Western countries. One politician has remarked that the Krishna consciousness movement is spreading like an epidemic and that if not checked immediately, within ten years it may capture governmental power. There is, of course, such potency in the Krishna consciousness movement. As stated by authorities (Cc. šdi 17.22), kali-kale nama-rupe krsna-avatara: in this age, Krishna has appeared in the Hare Krishna maha-mantra. The Krishna consciousness movement is spreading like wildfire all over the world, and it will go on doing so. Men who are like Kaˆsa are very much afraid of the movement's progress and acceptance by the younger generation, but as Krishna could not be killed by Kamsa, this movement cannot be checked by men of Kamsa's class. The movement will go on increasing more and more, provided the leaders of the movement remain firmly Krishna conscious by following the regulative principles and the primary activities of chanting the Hare Krishna mantra regularly.
SB. 10-2-20-purp.

So everyone knows that many of the so called leaders didn't remain firmly fixed. So why not you become a leader of this movement. We need good devotees like you to lead us. But don't think that this movement is finished, Srila Prabhupada is still active in it and will purify it more and more. This is not material sentiment but it is a fact.

Ys TS

Posted by Trivikrama Swami @ 12/11/2005 09:27 AM PST

Mark has stated:
"To His Holiness Trivikrama Swami,

I read your website.

your sincerity is the only thing separating your ArchAngelic ego from a tremendous descent. Hold on tight. When my biggest fault is dealt with, I'll keep in touch, and if you haven't found yours by then, I'll offer my assessment and be there for you."

I apprecaite your concern. Looking forward to hearing from you again.

Ys TS

Posted by Mark @ 12/11/2005 09:10 AM PST

Hari Bol!

After posting my last sort of farewell post, I "stumbled upon" this letter from Srila Prabhupada to Tusta Krishna which
"coincidently" addresses every single arguement that has been presented in this thread regarding Who the spiritual master is, where he is or is not present, and a few other choice topics. Blame me and my ego, Sri Guru had "nothing" to do with me finding this.

This letter has been rated G, meaning Good for all levels of devotional realization, by the Service to Prabhupada Association of America.

y.s.

Mark

72-12-14
Ahmedabad
14th December, 1972

Byron's Bay, Australia

My dear Tusta Krishna,

Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letters dated November 18, November 22, and December 3, 1972, and I have heard that you are having some difficulties, so I have sent Siddhasvarupa there to help you. Now try to keep a cool head under all circumstances and always remember that Krishna will protect you in any case, you haven't to worry anything. I think that without you the New Zealand affair will not go on, but now you are leaving there to live on some farm in Australia. Of course, our serving Krishna is voluntary affair, so what can I say? If you think that is the best choice, I must agree, otherwise you might go away altogether. Anyway we shall discuss in detail if I come there in future.

Regarding your questions in the letter of November 18, 1972, you have asked me if the spiritual master is ultimately Krishna, so the answer must be that if you think that way then everyone is Krishna. So why we should think like this? saktyavesa Avatara. means a living entity, but he is specially empowered. Not that he is Krishna. But on account of his exalted position he is honoured as much as Krishna. Not that he is Krishna. That is Mayavadi. He acts in the position of Krishna, but he is not Krishna, he is very dear to Krishna. That is explained: (here the verse was quoted: yasya prasadat bhagavata prasadat . . .) The spiritual master is acting in the position of Krishna because he is the most confidential servant of Krishna.

Your next question, after leaving this material realm does the devotee remain forever wtih his spiritual master? The answer is yes. But I think you have got the mistaken idea in this connection. You speak of pure devotee, that he is saktyavesa avatara, that we should obey him only--these things are the wrong idea. If anyone thinks like that, that a pure devotee should be obeyed and no one else, that means he is a nonsense. We advise everyone to address one another as Prabhu. Prabhu means master, so how the master should be disobeyed? Others, they are also pure devotees. All of my disciples are pure devotees. Anyone sincerely serving the spiritual master is a pure devotee, it may be Siddhasvarupa or others, a-Siddhasvarupa. This must be very clearly stated. It is not only that your Siddhasvarupa is a pure devotee and not others. Do not try to make a faction. Siddhasvarupa is a good soul. But others should not be misled. Anyone who is surrendered to the spiritual master is a pure devotee, it doesn't matter if Siddhasvarupa or non-Siddhasvarupa. Amongst ourselves one should respect others as Prabhu, master, one another. As soon as we distinguish here is a pure devotee, here is a non-pure devotee, that means I am a nonsense. Why you only want to be in the spiritual sky with Siddhasvarupa? Why not all? If Siddhasvarupa can go, why not everyone? Siddhasvarupa will go, you will go, Syamasundara. will go, all others will go. We will have another ISKCON there. Of course, Mr. Nair must stay.

And if somebody does not go, then I shall have to come back to take him there. One should remember this and every one of my disciples should act in such a way that they may go with me and may not have to come back to take another birth.

As for your next question, can only a few pure devotees deliver others, anyone, if he is a pure devotee he can deliver others, he can become spiritual master. But unless he on that platform he should not attempt it. Then both of them will to go to hell, like blind men leading the blind.

Next you ask if I am present in my picture and form? Yes. In form as well as in teachings. To carry out the teachings of guru is more important than to worship the form, but none of them should be neglected. Form is called vapu and teachings is called vani. Both should be worshiped. Vani is more important than vapu.

Your next question is, should we love Krishna or love the spiritual master: You cannot go to Krishna directly, loving Him. It is common sense that if Krishna is the object of your love, His pet dog is also the object of your love. Friends meet friends and if the friend is with his dog the gentleman pats his dog first, is it not? So the man becomes automatically pleased, his dog being patted. I have seen it in your country. The conclusion is this: Without pleasing the spiritual master he cannot please Krishna. If anyone tries to please Krishna directly, he's fool number one.

Hoping this meets you and your good wife, Krishna Tulasi dasi, in good health and devotional mood.

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

ACBS/sda

Posted by Mark @ 12/11/2005 08:35 AM PST

Dear Devotees,

Please accept my obeisances for what they are worth.

I believe I may have found what I was looking for here. Your association has been interesting and enlightening. I left a final response in the "Well Wishers of Iskcon" thread, explaining the fault that has been revealed to me through my association here, and offering a bit more about what I am really doing for anyone who cares. To wrap things up here,

To His Holiness Trivikrama Swami,

I read your website.

your sincerity is the only thing separating your ArchAngelic ego from a tremendous descent. Hold on tight. When my biggest fault is dealt with, I'll keep in touch, and if you haven't found yours by then, I'll offer my assessment and be there for you.

To Shiva Dasa,

you are very learned. But BB Das had a point. If you are so clear about the nuances of how a great Acharya sometimes "dumbs it down" for a neophyte, why in the world would you wade into a pool of neophytes and contradict what is holding em up? Dude, please.

To BB Das,

I wish you strength to do whatever it takes to see your convictions through, and not compromise what you Know to be true.

To all the anonymous persons,

Anonymity can be a valuable tool for extenuating circumstances requiring great caution.

Or it is just cowardice.

Figure out which describes your situation, and feel it good. No need to thank me later, I was once there myself and my blunt directness is from empathy not disdain of your fragile position.

And to Rocana Dasa,

Although I obviously do not currently meet the criteria for your consideration, I still appreciate your position, and would love to hear your opinion regarding the viability of what you see I am trying to do. Not that I would ever give it up, but that I might glean some enhancements from your critiques. Maybe in the future. Otherwise, thanks for the forum and Hari Bol!

And to the envious rascals,

Faugetaboudit!

Hare Krishna

y.s.

Mark

Posted by Balaram das @ 12/11/2005 08:31 AM PST

Siva,

Could you be so kind and answer my questions in a way that is simple for me to understand?

I know every thing comes from Krsna but don't they also maintain their individualities?

Thank you.

Posted by shiva das @ 12/11/2005 07:41 AM PST

Well Maharaja I used the word "concerned" in the context in which it seemed to me that you used it in. You made it seem like Srila Prabhupada was worried that Iskcon would end up like the Gaudiya Math. Of course he is concerned about people's well being if you are going to use the word "concerned" in a different way. If you look up the word concered there are in fact two definitions. From dictionary.com:

1. Interested and involved: sent a memorandum to those concerned.

2. Anxious; troubled

They context you used the word concerned seemed to me to be anxious and troubled, it is that which I disagree with.

Then you wrote:

So the point I have been attempting to communicate to one and all is that Srila Prabhupada is still extending himself in this way. He is ready to reciprocate with any of his sincere followers. Simply we have to surrender to him. This is his saktyavesa. Why not try it Shivaji? Then you will have philosophy with full spiritual sentiment

But he did say a lot about this issue. He told us we should manage the society as we had been doing. He said the GBC men should remain in their position for life. He told some of his disciples to initiate, but under the authority of the GBC. I personally witnessed him sitting up in his bed in front of the lawyers to sign his last will making the GBC the final authority.

Next you say:"In my view of Srila Prabhupada he was simply doing the will of Krishna and felt no concern whatsoever because he knew that the future is already decided."

Then why preach at all? No, everything is already decided that's OK but still we have our free will and compassion. We must try our best to canvas on behalf of Krsna. Krsna says no one is more dear to Him then one who does this work. Not that we become callus to the suffering of others. If a blind man is about to fall in a ditch we must call out to warn him

This body is made by material nature under the direction of the Supersoul, and whatever activities are going on in respect to one's body are not his doing. Whatever one is supposed to do, either for happiness or for distress, one is forced to do because of the bodily constitution.

yavan nanartha-dhih pumso
na nivarteta yuktibhih
jagarty api svapann ajnah
svapne jagaranam yatha

According to My instructions, one should fix the mind on Me alone. If, however, one continues to see many different values and goals in life rather than seeing everything within Me, then although apparently awake, one is actually dreaming due to incomplete knowledge, just as one may dream that one has wakened from a dream.

You mentioned in an earlier post that the Radha Priya Sakhis are personal expansions of Srimate Radharani and are not jivas.

Is it possible for such personalities to contact us (of course through paramatama)in the material jagat.

Because she is not different from the Supreme Lord, Goddess Laksmi is also all pervading. In the Smriti-sastra it is said:

Goddess Laksmi is the mother of the worlds. She is the constant companion of Lord Visnu. As Lord Visnu is all pervading, so is she.
To think that Goddess Laksmi is different from Lord Visnu, but still all-pervading, is a false, a heretical idea...Sri Radha is the origin of all the forms of Goddess Laksmi.

As already explained, Krsna and Radha are one in two. They are identical. Krsna expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the purusas. Similarly, Srimati Radharani expands Herself in multiforms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja. Such expansions from Srimati Radharani are all Her plenary portions. All these womanly forms of Krsna are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Visnu forms. These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form. There is no difference between the original form and the reflected forms. The female reflections of Krsna's pleasure potency are as good as Krsna Himself.

This is confirmed in the Varaha Purana:

The two kinds of expansions from the Supreme Personality of Godhead are : 1. svamsa (personal expansions) and 2. vibhinnamsa (separate persons). The svamsa expansions are unlimitedly powerful. Their form and personality are the same as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself. There is not the slightest difference between the svamsa expansions and the Original Personality of Godhead. The vibhinnamsa expansions are very weak in comparison to Them.

svamsa-vibhinnamsa-rupe hana vistaraananta vaikuntha-brahmande karena vihara
svamsa-vistara -- catur-vyuha, avatara-ganavibhinnamsa jiva -- tanra saktite ganana
sei vibbhinamsa jiva - dui ta' prakaraeka - "nitya-mukta," eka - "nityasamsara"

Krsna expands Himself in many forms. Some of them are personal expansions, and some are separate expansions. Thus He performs pastimes in both the spiritual and the material worlds. The spiritual worlds are the Vaikuntha planets, and the material universes are the brahmandas, gigantic globes governed by Lord Brahma.

Expansions of His personal self -- like the quadruple manifestations of Sankarsana, Pradyumna, Aniruddha and Vasudeva -- descend as incarnations from Vaikuntha to this material world. The separated expansions are the living entities (jivas). Although they are expansions of Krsna, they are counted among His different potencies

The living entities (jivas) are divided into two categories. Some are eternally liberated, and others are eternally conditioned.

If this is so, I have read and heard that the Bona fide Guru is either a Radha Priya Sakhi or a direct expansion of Lord Nityananda Baladeve. In either case wouldn’t they then have the potency to contact their deserving disciples?

The cit-potency is Krishna's plenary (Complete in all respects) potency; Whatever she produces is eternally accomplished; the jiva is not so eternally accomplished; when he becomes accomplished by practice, he enjoys bliss like those eternally accomplished entities. The four kinds of confidantes of Sri Radha are eternally accomplished; their bodies are about the same, with slight variations, with that of Sri Radhika who is essentially the cit-shakti. The jivas have grown out of the jiva-shakti of Sri Krishna. Cit-shakti is Sri Krishna's full (plenary) shakti, whereas the jiva-shakti is the incomplete shakti. From the plenary potency are produced complete entities, but from the incomplete potency have grown the jivas as atomic chit. Krishna manifests entities of different types in accordance with the kind of the shakti He applies

Krsna is self-effulgent, like a blazing fire or the sun. Krsna is like a blazing fire. In the centre of the fire is the cit-sakti (internal potency), it is present in fullness. In addition to the centre there is also a great expanse illuminated by the fire. The same way the Krsna-sun illumines a great area with sunlight. The rays of sunlight are particles of His internal potency. Those atomic particles that constitute those rays of sunlight are the individual spirit souls. The internal potency manifests the Krsna-sun planet itself. The sunlight emanating from that planet is manifested by the cit-sakti and the individual particles of light are manifested by the jiva-sakti. Therefore the individual spirit souls are manifested by the jiva-sakti.

Srila Jiva Gosvami describes the Supreme Person in these words:

"The Absolute Truth is one. Still, by His inconceivable potency He is manifested in four ways: 1. svarupa (His original form), 2. tad-rupa-vaibhava (His incarnations), 3. jiva (the individual spirit souls), and 4. pradhana (the material energy). These four features are like: 1. the interior of the sun planet, 2. the sun's surface, 3. the sunlight, and 4. the reflection of the sun."

Posted by bb das @ 12/11/2005 07:23 AM PST

Hare Krsna Maharaja,

Thank you for your reply.

It is understood that the Bona fide Spiritual Master will order some of his disciple to make their own men/ disciples, otherwise how can the mission of the Spiritual Master/ Lord Sri Caitanya continue.

Srila Prabhupada and Vedic teachings say that when one is properly qualified by the standard of Guru, Sadhu, and Sastra and is explicitly instructed/ ordered by the Superior Bona fide authorized Spiritual Master then he can become regular Guru.

You cannot become a spiritual master all of a sudden. THERE MUST BE ORDER FROM A SUPERIOR PERSON. SUPERIOR TO YOU. IF HE SAYS, “NOW YOU CAN MAKE DISCIPLES,” THEN YOU CAN DO THAT. This is the educational process. THAT MEANS, WHEN ONE HAS RECEIVED ORDER FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, HE CAN BE [SPIRITUAL MASTER.]
(SP 1.2.18 Lecture)

He is self-made guru. Therefore he’s not guru. Self-made guru cannot be guru. HE MUST BE AUTHORIZED BY THE BONA FIDE GURU. THEN HE’S GURU. BONA FIDE GURU MEANS HE MUST BE AUTHORIZED BY THE SUPERIOR GURU…. HE MUST RECEIVE THE ORDER FROM THE SUPERIOR. AND THE SUPERIOR MUST BE BONA FIDE. THEN HE’S BONA FIDE, NOT SELF-MADE.
(NOD Lectures Vrndavan, India 10/31/72)

GBC Meets with Srila Prabhupada--
May 28, 1977, Vandavana:

Prabhupada: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order... Be actually guru, but by my order.

…Prabhupada: When I order, “You become guru,” he becomes regular guru. That’s all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That’s it.

So the point being that one who is qualified and thus authorized by the Bona fide authorized Superior Guru can take up the role.

How is it that persons are taking that role otherwise; including a process of voting membership?
This is just not accepted in our Tradition or according to guru, sadhu, and sastra.

Prabhupada said one who is self made Guru is not Guru. He must have received the order from the previous bona fide authorized Spiritual Master.

Now the GBC has abandoned that process and concocted their own which is not according to our Tradition of guru, sadhu and sastra.

Under what authority can they act like this?

If they are qualified, then they should be qualified to judge who is qualified amongst their disciples and followers to take such responsibilty.

If they are not trusted and qualified, why are they being given such responsibility?

Let us start there Maharaja.

Your servant,

bb das

Posted by Trivikrama Swami @ 12/11/2005 06:18 AM PST

Thank you Nitya Siddha for providing us a historical picture of the UK during Bhagavan's reign. I was also subjected to abuse in those days because of my stance on the gurus. I remember once being denyed permission to give class at Soho St. I think it was 1984. Bhagavat Asraya was then the TP, he was willing to let me give class but Bhagavan ordered him not to allow me.

I am happy to hear you say:

"We are not anti-Iskcon as such and do not hold the view that ISKCON in a broader sense is anything less than a house that the whole world can live in.So let's work together,those like Trivrikrama Swami who are honest and sincere followers of Prabhupada's mission should make thier voices heard more amongst thier godbrothers and bring these issues to thier attention so that the proper reforms and changes can begin to take place,then maybe,just maybe the throngs of dissenters might begin to come back."

I am trying my best but if you have any suggestions please let me know.

Ys TS

Posted by Trivikrama Swami @ 12/11/2005 06:08 AM PST

Bh. Mark has asked:

"It must be a whole lot to live up to, being called Holiness and Swami. Is that an initiated name from Srila Prabhupada?"

Yes. I received sannyas from Srila Prabhupada in 1971. After that when ever he wrote to me he would address the letter to His Holiness Trivikrama Swami.
This was his practice for all his sannyasis.
I would be happy to speak to you more on this subject. What is your e-mail address?

Ys TS

Posted by Trivikrama Swami @ 12/11/2005 05:56 AM PST

bb das has asked:

"How does a devotee stay within Iskcon when he is completely convinced by guru, sadhu and sastra that the current process within Iskcon regarding voting in less than qualified persons to take the post of acarya is unauthorized?"

We should first of all understand that the "post of acarya" is already taken by Srila Prabhupada. It is said that after the demise of one's spiritual master the disciple is allowed to initiate. In Iskcon that function is restricted by the GBC to try to insure that too many unqualifed disciples won't begin initiating. Less then a perfect system I agree, but what is your idea?

Ys TS

Posted by Balaram das @ 12/11/2005 03:48 AM PST

Siva,

You mentioned in an earlier post that the Radha Priya Sakhis are personal expansions of Srimate Radharani and are not jivas.

Is it possible for such personalities to contact us (of course through paramatama)
in the material jagat.

If this is so, I have read and heard that the Bona fide Guru is either a Radha Priya Sakhi or a direct expansion of Lord Nityananda Baladeve. In either case wouldn’t they then have the potency to contact their deserving disciples?

If this is all true, then Srila Prabhupada would then in fact be able to have direct contact with his disciples. Is it not? Just wondering…

Thanks,
Balarama das

Posted by Trivikrama Swami @ 12/11/2005 03:31 AM PST

Well Sivaji I have read your letter and I concur with most everything you state except for a few points.

You say:
"I have to disagree about your belief that Srila Prabhupada was "concerned" about anything. A self realized soul knows that Krishna is controlling everything and that evrything goes on due to the will of the Lord."

Anyone who had any association with Srila Prabhupada came quickly to know that he was very concerned about many things, not the least being his concern, his compassion, for each of us as individuals. And because that was so clear, that he did love us as persons, that he was our well wisher, we in turn felt inspired to sacrifice for pleasing him.

Therefore we say the spiritual master, or as our Rocan prabhu would say, the sampradaya acarya, is even more kind then the Lord. How is that? Because he approaches the fallen souls taking all risks for reclaiming them for Krishna.

So the point I have been attempting to communicate to one and all is that Srila Prabhupada is still extending himself in this way. He is ready to reciprocate with any of his sincere followers. Simply we have to surrender to him. This is his saktyavesa. Why not try it Shivaji? Then you will have philosophy with full spiritual sentiment.

Then you say:
"If Srila Prabhupada was concerned about Iskcon due to his viewing the Gaudiya Math split as a failure, then it should come as a surprise why he said so little about the succession issue when he knew he was not long for this earth."

But he did say a lot about this issue. He told us we should manage the society as we had been doing. He said the GBC men should remain in their position for life. He told some of his disciples to initiate, but under the authority of the GBC. I personally witnessed him sitting up in his bed in front of the lawyers to sign his last will making the GBC the final authority.

Next you say:
"In my view of Srila Prabhupada he was simply doing the will of Krishna and felt no concern whatsoever because he knew that the future is already decided."

Then why preach at all? No, everything is already decided that's OK but still we have our free will and compassion. We must try our best to canvas on behalf of Krsna. Krsna says no one is more dear to Him then one who does this work. Not that we become callus to the suffering of others. If a blind man is about to fall in a ditch we must call out to warn him.

Ys TS

Posted by bb das @ 12/11/2005 03:10 AM PST

First of all Siva, you brought up the topic when it was being discussed amongst us neophytes that in order to help deal with the difficulties in Iskcon that we should cry to Prabhupada and Krsna for their help and guidance. You were the one to bring up that point that Prabhupada can not hear us or help us.

And because your statements are right in line with your Agenda for all to leave Iskcon (that we all are simply worshippers of an Institution only), we thought justified to respond to your critical and derogatory statements.

Srila Prabhupada thought to say and deal differently under similiar circumstances. Once again you know better than Srila Prabhupada....

ys
bb das

Posted by Nitya Siddha dasa @ 12/11/2005 02:37 AM PST

I remember when I was still serving at Bhaktivedanta manor in England after coming back from India in 1983.At that time Bhagavan dasa and his sidekick Dhristayamuna dasa were in control.Siva Rama Maharaja, good man as he is was obliged to kow tow to the status quo and become one of Bhagavan's puppets even though he may not have necessarily always agreed with him.So called "sankirtan"then was either going out collecting with charity cans or a clipboard or selling paintings from Hong Kong.The upper management were wearing silk clothes,expensive aftershave and Rolex watches costing thousands of pounds(by his own admission Siva Rama Maharaja had a gold Rolex that cost 9,000 GBP)Also I heard rumours that Siva Rama Maharaja's office suite consisting of rosewood furniture and oriental carpets cost in the region of 12,000 GBP.Some devotees were paid salaries for working in the temple and in Quality fine arts etc.I also heard that money was being spent on credit cards,international travel,cars,stereo systems etc.I was selling paintings,a mundane activity aimed purely at raising money for the temple managements nefarious schemes and personal indulgences.Morally I could not justify this,so out of disgust I left.Many other sincere souls left because of the Bhagavan regime at the same time.Bhagavan and his sidekick were widely percieved as being arrogant and using machiavellian management tactics to interfere with marriages etc.My good friend Dhanajaya dasa told me personally that he had a nervous breakdown that was caused directly by Bhagavan deliberately interfering with his marriage and causing a temporary split with his wife.Of course since then and after leaving the movement Bhagavan has apologised for his offences with humility and conscience.I viewed Bhagavan as essentially a good man and devotee,who had become overly enamoured by his posistion which led him to abuse his power and become somewhat arrogant and dictatorial in nature.I have seen the same thing happen to other Iskcon leaders over the years and clearly there has been and remains a problem in this respect.Iskcon as an organisation has never produced an annual audit as other companies do when they open there account books to thier shareholders,employees etc.to show just how thier money is being spent.How can Iskcon expect sincere and intelligent men and women to go out on the street collecting money with the appalling record that it has of misusing and embezzelling Krishna's Laxmi over the years?This is not so much a question of faith in the philosophy or Prabhupada but more of a moral dilemma for the individual,which has led to loss of faith in the leaders of Iskcon and a mass exodus from the temples.In order for Iskcon to bring it's own house into order it has to show and reassure its following that there is complete honesty and transparency in all of it's financial dealings.It also has to show that there are proper moral standards and rules in place to prohibit abuse of its following especially the most vunerable women and children.No one can repair the damage that has already been done to the reputation of Iskcon and the scars it has left on those that have been victims.But at least the management can begin to implement reforms and try to correct and learn from the errors that it has made in the past.I know that Iskcon has already attempted to introduce some reforms with the C.P.O. etc, and certainly this is a step in the right direction.But how can Trivrikrama Swami and others blame anyone for leaving and living outside of Iskcon in light of these moral issues?
We are not anti-Iskcon as such and do not hold the view that ISKCON in a broader sense is anything less than a house that the whole world can live in.So let's work together,those like Trivrikrama Swami who are honest and sincere followers of Prabhupada's mission should make thier voices heard more amongst thier godbrothers and bring these issues to thier attention so that the proper reforms and changes can begin to take place,then maybe,just maybe the throngs of dissenters might begin to come back.

Your servant,
Nitya Siddha dasa (UK)

Posted by shiva das @ 12/11/2005 02:31 AM PST

Srila Prabhupada would sometimes say things that were not really true but he would say them to inspire certain devotees for different reasons.

1967 June 14 : "Yes it is due to your prayers that this time my life has been saved."

1967 June 14 : "So far my health is concerned, I am improving daily, but due to my weakness sometimes I feel dizziness. Your prayer and all other boys' prayers has saved me and I hope to render some service to you all for some more years."

1967/Dec. 16: "When I left your country on the 22nd of July, I had very little hope to come back again. But Krishna informed me that I'm not going to die immediately; therefore, I have come back again to get inspiration from you all good souls. Although officially I am your Spiritual Master, I consider you all students of my Spiritual Master because your love for Krishna and service for Krishna teach me how to become a sincere Krishna Conscious person."

As far as I am concerned some people need to be told things that are not really true due to their lack of a philosophically inclined mentality, if sentimentalism can inspire those people to engage in sadhana bhakti and to serve the spiritual master's mission then Krishna will arrange sentimentalism to inspire them. But for those who can understand philosophy they will be able to see the true situation and the reasons for it. So again if people want to believe that Srila Prabhupada can do as you believe he can do or that Krishna tells him about Iskcon, fine. I just don't think you should try and force that conception on people who may disagree for the philosophical reasons which I have outlined.

Posted by Anon @ 12/10/2005 11:07 PM PST

Haribol: Bhaktin Rebecca. Yes, you slightly misunderstood my "new and innovative" preaching statement etc. but perhaps that was due to my lack of detailed explanation otherwise, everything else you said makes sense and I will take that to heart and thank you for your thoughts.

Trivrikrama Swami is correct in his last post. Especially about Srila Prabhupada embracing the Swami he mentioned. But how about this, a devotee who had never personally met Srila Prabhupada and whom he never initiated appearing in a dream and embracing that devotee? This is a fact about someone I know. These are very personal and intimate encounters.

Another point to Shiva das, BB das and Mark et al. Trivrikrama Swami is not an ordinary devotee and is in fact, an initiating diksa guru in ISCON currently. He is faithfully executing the orders of his spiritual master, HDG Swami Prabhupada and thus, respect should be given. He is not an ordinary blog poster and his comments bear much weight. That is, he has not left the mission and/or is not a so-called "renegade." I just thought one should know that.

Posted by bb das @ 12/10/2005 10:41 PM PST

Siva,

You wrote:

"As far as Srila Prabhupada telling people to pray to His guru or whatever, it is my opinion that the spiritual master may sometimes tell neophytes things that he feels may help them them in their service even if they are not technically correct."

If we are all neophytes, then why are you choosing to preach to us in a way contrary to what Srila Prabhupada decided we needed to hear? Do you know more than Srila Prabhupada and his decision to preach in a specific way?

Who cares about your opinion Siva?
As they say, "everyone has got one".

ys
bb das

Posted by bb das @ 12/10/2005 09:56 PM PST

Dear Trivikrama Maharaja,

Dandavat Pranams.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

I have a relevent question, if you don't mind?

How does a devotee stay within Iskcon when he is completely convinced by guru, sadhu and sastra that the current process within Iskcon regarding voting in less than qualified persons to take the post of acarya is unauthorized?

If one is faithful to Srila Prabhupada and his instructions to work within Iskcon and speaks out on this topic, he will be thrown out on the street. Honestly, how do we rectify that dilemma?

ys

bb das

Posted by Bhaktin Rebecca @ 12/10/2005 08:39 PM PST

To Anon-

quite frankly, I beg to differ. I've seen and heard increasingly about Krishna well outside of ISKCON Temple domains. That is because those temples do not hold a monopoly on Krishna Consciousness. I've seen encouraging signs in other religious groups as well. The whole world is heading for the glorious Sankirtan Movement, and nothing will stop that. The "demons" can try, but the do not stand a chance against the desire of the Supreme Lord. As my siksha guru (ISKCON-certified and GBC as well, so you may respect his word on the matter) says, the desire of Sri Caitanya, His Sankirtan Mission, will be carried out whether or not we participate. It is not up to any certain group of people, in or out of ISKCON. It is happening, in both realms.

I believe each of us here does try to participate in the growth of this Movement, to the best of our abilities, and according to our understandings.

What I do not understand, however, is why you feel a need for "new and inovative" preaching. Srila Prabhupada gave us the best methods possible. If we have some difficulty with doing things like simply sitting down and chanting, with talking about the glories of Sri Krishna, with being a true friend to those we meet by coming to understand them and then helping them to understand how to add Krishna more and more in their lives, then perhaps we ought to work more on finding ways to elevate our own consciousness before trying to save everyone else.

Pure and unalloyed, with no tricks or techniques, is the best way to share Krishna Consciousness. Didn't we all appreciate that about Srila Prabhupada? If we try any other way than sincerly following as best we can, then sharing what realization and knowledge we have attained, then we are only pushing something bogus on people who won't appreciate it one bit. There is no need for "new and innovative," there is only need to progress in our own spiritual lives, then share that at every opportunity that Krishna gives us. He most certainly will send people if we are willing to give them what we are supposed to in a genuine manner.

Perhaps I took your phrase the wrong way, but for myself, anyhow, it just conjured up images of past damba-yagna so-called preaching in ISKCON (the change-up ring a bell? or how about wearing wigs?). We don't need to trick people into Krishna Consciousness, nor will that work. Be straight forward, and that is the kind of people you will attract. Crookedness attracts crookedness - I think we should have learned that by now. Those straight forward, honest people are out there and they are waiting for Krishna's real representatives to give them pure, unalloyed knowledge about our dear, sweet Lord. Just do what you do and add Krishna. People will notice. Have faith.

y/s Bhaktin Rebecca

Posted by shiva das @ 12/10/2005 08:27 PM PST

I made a typo:

When I wrote this:

"We may not understand or even like the way things turn out, nevetheless the material world is not described as a prison house for conditioned souls for the reason of purification of the conditioned souls in the material world."

The "not" shouldn't be there.

I also misspelled contaminate 3 times.

As far as Srila Prabhupada telling people to pray to His guru or whatever, it is my opinion that the spiritual master may sometimes tell neophytes things that he feels may help them them in their service even if they are not technically correct. That's my story and I'm sticken to it. As already posted earlier Srila Prabhupada also said this about prayer:

From Srila Prabhupada letter to Mahananda dasa, 27th April 1970:

"Regarding your questions, 'are the Spiritual Master and the Grand Spiritual Master consciously aware of the prayers of a sincere devotee who prays in love to Them'?-the answer is that no conscious prayers go in vain. They are transmitted positively. But one thing you must know that any prayer you offer to your Spiritual Master and Superior Spiritual Master, all of them are conveyed to Krishna, so no sincere prayers go in vain. We shall always offer such prayers to Spiritual Master, Superior Spiritual Master, Vaisnava Acaryas, Lord Caitanya, and at the end Radha Krishna, that is the system."

The way he worded that makes it obvious that he is saying that the prayer to the guru goes to Krishna, so therefore the prayer to the guru is not in vain because Krishna hears it and you are purified through the meditation of the prayer.

We should understand the purpose of prayer. It is meant to purify us.

Posted by shiva das @ 12/10/2005 08:12 PM PST

Trivikrama Maharaja you wrote:

To the issue at hand. It looks like you and Rocan Prabhu, and of course many others, have concluded that Iskcon has lost it spiritual bearing, how now it is no longer a representive of Srila Prabhupada's desires, how it's leadership has become corrupt and have turned it into a mundane religious organization etc. You have quoted SBSS on how this outcome is evitable.

He has been deputed to oversee the Krishna conscious society that he started for the next 10,000 years. That means that he has the power to communicate, not only through his books, but directly, with anyone who sincerely desires to follow and please him

And what is pleasing to him? We all know that. He wanted to do something wonderful to change to face of this sad world. He was always thinking big, ready to meet with anyone to further his movement. And he was very concerned about the succession issue, how to avoid the fate that befell his spiritual master's mission. He took it as a failure and didn't want that to happen to his Iskcon.

Sure there is corruption in Iskcon, everyone can see that, just like there is corruption still in our hearts. So we have to always be alert to fight that corruption, both individually and collectively. That will please Srila Prabhupada. It was his idea to have an international society, not an easy thing to accomplish, but it is our challenge, and don't think for a minute that he is not there ready to inspire and consol us along the way.

Posted by bb das @ 12/10/2005 07:56 PM PST

With Siva's Agenda, it's some times difficult for him to remember what Srila Prabhupada has said, so let me remind him.

HDG Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura’s Appearance Day, Lecture -- Atlanta, March 2, 1975:

Prabhupada: So now, by the grace of Krsna and Caitanya Mahaprabhu and IN THE PRESENCE OF MY GURU MAHARAJA, you are so nice boys and girls. So in front of Caitanya Mahaprabhu you are chanting Hare Krsna mantra, and you are taking part in it very seriously. SO MY GURU MAHARAJA WILL BE VERY, VERY MUCH PLEASED UPON YOU AND BLESS YOU WITH ALL BENEFITS.
SO HE WANTED THIS, AND HE IS NOT... IT IS NOT THAT HE IS DEAD AND GONE. THAT IS NOT SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING. Even ordinary living being, he does not die. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. And what to speak of such exalted, authorized personality like Bhaktisiddhanta. HE IS SEEING. I NEVER FEEL THAT I AM ALONE. Of course, when I came to your country without any friend, without any means... Practically, just like a vagabond I came. BUT I HAD FULL FAITH THAT "MY GURU MAHARAJA IS WITH ME." I NEVER LOST THIS FAITH, AND THAT IS FACT.

Letter to: Brahmananda -- Los Angeles 19 December, 1968:

YOU SHOULD ALWAYS PRAY TO HIS DIVINE GRACE BECAUSE NATURALLY HE WILL BE MORE AFFECTIONATE TO YOU THAN TO ME. Generally one is more affectionate to the grandchildren than to the children directly. SO I AM SURE THAT MY GURU MAHARAJA WILL BE EASILY INCLINED TO YOUR PRAYERS THAN THAT OF MINE. YOU WILL DO GOOD ALWAYS BY OFFERING YOUR PRAYERS TO HIS DIVINE GRACE BHAKTISIDDHANTA GOSWAMI MAHARAJA.

(Srila Prabhupada letter, 5th March, 1968)

"Please be happy in separation. I am separated from my Guru Maharaj since 1936 but I AM ALWAYS WITH HIM SO LONG I WORK ACCORDING TO HIS DIRECTION. So we should all work together for satisfying Lord Krishna and in that way the feeling of separation will transform into transcendental bliss."

Devotee Letter -- San Francisco 7 April, 1967:

I always think of you because you are all my heart and soul. I am so pleased to have your association and I ALWAYS THANK MY SPIRITUAL MASTER OM VISNUPADA SRI SRIMAD BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI GOSWAMI MAHARAJA FOR HIS FAVOR BY SENDING ME SOME SINCERE REPRESENTATIVE OF HIM in missionary activities in this part of the world. I came here to execute His Will and by His Grace I have so many good souls … I consider you all as representative of my Guru Maharaja to help me in this helpless condition. MY GODBROTHERS DID NOT HELP ME BUT MY SPIRITUAL MASTER HAS HELPED ME. SO DO NOT THINK THAT I CAN EVER FORGET YOU EVEN FOR A MOMENT. I PRAY TO KRISHNA FOR YOUR MORE AND MORE ADVANCEMENT OF KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS.

CC Antya Concludiong Words:

I THINK THAT HIS DIVINE GRACE BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI THAKURA IS ALWAYS SEEING MY ACTIVITIES AND GUIDING ME WITHIN MY HEART BY HIS WORDS. … It is to be admitted that whatever translation work I have done is through the inspiration of my spiritual master, because personally I am most insignificant and incompetent to do this materially impossible work. I DO NOT THINK MYSELF A VERY LEARNED SCHOLAR, BUT I HAVE FULL FAITH IN THE SERVICE OF MY SPIRITUAL MASTER, HIS DIVINE GRACE SRILA BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI THAKURA. IF THERE IS ANY CREDIT TO MY ACTIVITIES OF TRANSLATING, IT IS ALL DUE TO HIS DIVINE GRACE. Certainly if His Divine Grace were physically present at this time, it would have been a great occasion for jubilation, but EVEN THOUGH HE IS NOT PHYSICALLY PRESENT, I AM CONFIDENT THAT HE IS VERY MUCH PLEASED BY THIS WORK OF TRANSLATION. He was very fond of seeing many books published to spread the Krsna consciousness movement. Therefore our society, the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, has been formed to execute the order of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura.

SMD 4.5: The Disciple Must Have Faith in the Spiritual Master:

Srila Prabhupada; …Although according to material vision His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada passed away from this material world on the last day of December, 1936, I STILL CONSIDER HIS DIVINE GRACE TO BE ALWAYS PRESENT WITH ME by his vani, his words.... I THINK THAT HIS DIVINE GRACE BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI THAKURA IS ALWAYS SEEING MY ACTIVITIES AND GUIDING ME within my heart by his words…I do not think myself a very learned scholar, but I have full faith in the service of my spiritual master, His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. IF THERE IS ANY CREDIT TO MY ACTIVITIES OF TRANSLATING, IT IS ALL DUE TO HIS DIVINE GRACE.

Srila Prabhupada’s expression of dedication to his spiritual master in the first volume of the Bhagavatam, where he writes,

“To Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja, my spiritual master.… He lives forever by his divine instructions and the follower lives with him.”

"I will remain your personal guidance, physically present or not physically present, as I am getting guidance from my guru maharaja."

(Srila Prabhupada room conversation, Vrindavan, July 7, 1977)

"In the spiritual world, separation is more relishable than meeting. In other words, in spiritual life, there is no separation. Separation is eternal, and meeting is also eternal. The separation is simply another feature of meeting."

(Srila Prabhupada letter, April 3, 1969)

ys

bb das

Posted by Mark @ 12/10/2005 05:38 PM PST

Dear Trivikrama,

Hari Bol!

What you suggest I do is exactly what I am doing.

I may not have stepped foot through the doors of the local temples that are dearest to me in more than a year, and some cases longer than that, but considering they are actually being RUN from the TOP by the corrupt, I think I'll conduct my service from a distance until I can patiently and enthusiastically conclude the very practical business of rooting out the corruption.

And don't think for a minute that I do not realize there are some devotees, like some pujari's for example, who are very pure and mostly oblivious to the rascaldom and may have a large amount of ananda buoying them to continue their service. I once envied that blissful divine ignorance, but now accept them as endowed causelessly, and maybe I will serve to increase their bliss by removing the mosquito bites they get on a regular basis.

And I don't intend any offense but I'd really like to know...

It must be a whole lot to live up to, being called Holiness and Swami. Is that an initiated name from Srila Prabhupada?

If not, I am actually surprised that after all the fall downs, that the sincere, which you appear to be, have not got together and decided to drop all titles claiming pure divinity as a gesture to begin to re-establish an equal footing with the "rank and file".

Surely if those titles apply, by virtue of your actions, then over time people would be inspired to speak of y'all that way spontaneously by way of realization and genuine reverence.

Please reply, or if this is too sensitive a matter, I would be happy to speak about it in private.

respectfully,

Mark

Posted by Trivikrama Swami @ 12/10/2005 05:01 PM PST

Mark Prabhu has stated:
"So does anyone have something practical to offer regarding how we can follow Srila Prabhupada's request that we cooperate with one another to show how much we love and value what he gave us?"

Yes! Get involved in your local Iskcon center, struggle to root out coruption with patience and entusiasm.

Posted by Trivikrama Swami @ 12/10/2005 04:58 PM PST

Shivaji your post made me smile, yes even a hard hearted rascal like me is sometimes charmed by how wonderful Lord Krishna really is.

To the issue at hand. It looks like you and Rocan Prabhu, and of course many others, have concluded that Iskcon has lost it spiritual bearing, how now it is no longer a representive of Srila Prabhupada's desires, how it's leadership has become corrupt and have turned it into a mundane religious organization etc. You have quoted SBSS on how this outcome is evitable.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, and perhaps for you the jury is still out. But for Rocan Prabhu it seems clear that the die is cast. We learned in Psychology 101 that once a person make a monumental, life changing, decision they tend to continue to justify that decision throughout their life. Leaving Iskcon, especially in lieu of Srila Prabhupada's instuction to show our love for him by cooperating together, would certainly fit this category of monumental decisions.

Of course miracles do happen, but as I have been cautioned not to indulge in sentiment, I will have to admit that I don't expect it to come to pass. Of course this puts me in a difficult position regarding the offense of preaching to the faithless. However there does seem to be many innocent devotees tuning in here so let me reveal what I see for the future.

Srila Prabhupada is a saktyavesa avatara. Of course he is a jiva soul but he is directly empowered by Lord Nityananda. And what is that empowerment? He has been deputed to oversee the Krishna conscious society that he started for the next 10,000 years. That means that he has the power to communicate, not only through his books, but directly, with anyone who sincerely desires to follow and please him.

It is has been going on for years, at least since 1979 when the gurus immediately made a mess of things. Have any of you read recently from Indradyumna Maharaja's Diary how Srila Prabhupada embraced him in a dream. These things are real, spiritual, more real then our humdrum daily consciousness.

And what is pleasing to him? We all know that. He wanted to do something wonderful to change to face of this sad world. He was always thinking big, ready to meet with anyone to further his movement. And he was very concerned about the succession issue, how to avoid the fate that befell his spiritual master's mission. He took it as a failure and didn't want that to happen to his Iskcon.

Sure there is corruption in Iskcon, everyone can see that, just like there is corruption still in our hearts. So we have to always be alert to fight that corruption, both individually and collectively. That will please Srila Prabhupada. It was his idea to have an international society, not an easy thing to accomplish, but it is our challenge, and don't think for a minute that he is not there ready to inspire and consol us along the way.

Ys TS

Posted by Mark @ 12/10/2005 03:15 PM PST

Dear Devotees,

I am feeling discouraged.

I check back to this topic from time to time, hoping to see a response to a question I had asked of someone whose opinion is valuable to me. I don't mind waiting.

But in the meantime, it is discouraging to see two people who are unwilling to see that the debate they are continuing to have was actually already resolved, and it was shown by shastra, and personal commentary by our Acharya's themselves that both are correct!

I am not going to re-post the exact instances where it was shown that Srila Prabhupada or any disappeared Spiritual Master can and often does personally appear to disciples, and as well, those disciples could also recieve a visit from Sri Chaitya Guru in the guise of their Spiritual Master, and it is the Supreme Lords internal potency in either case so who can claim they "know" the difference when it happens? I guess anyone CAN claim it, but in the company of discriminating, minds who would want to?

So does anyone have something practical to offer regarding how we can follow Srila Prabhupada's request that we cooperate with one another to show how much we love and value what he gave us?

He admitted to leaving 50% of what he wanted to institute in this world undone. He left lots of explicit orders for us to fulfill.

I agree the debate was proper when 2 points of view were divergent, but its over now. Let's get busy!

Hare Krishna

y.s.

mark

Posted by shiva das @ 12/10/2005 02:56 PM PST

dhyanayanam prahasitam bahuladharoshtha-
bhasarunayita-tanu-dvija-kunda-pankti
dhyayet svadeha-kuhare 'vasitasya vishnor
bhaktyardrayarpita-mana na prithag didrikshet

With devotion steeped in love and affection, the yogi should meditate within the core of his heart upon the laughter of Lord Vishnu. The laughter of Vishnu is so captivating that it can be easily meditated upon. When the Supreme Lord is laughing, one can see His small teeth, which resemble jasmine buds rendered rosy by the splendor of His lips. Once devoting his mind to this, the yogi should no longer desire to see anything else.

sarva-bhuteshu catmanam
sarva-bhutani catmani
ikshetananya-bhavena
bhuteshv iva tad-atmatam

A yogi should see the same soul in all manifestations, for all that exists is a manifestation of different energies of the Supreme. In this way the devotee should see all living entities without distinction. That is realization of the Supreme Soul.

tasmad imam svam prakritim
daivim sad-asad-atmikam
durvibhavyam parabhavya
svarupenavatishthate

Thus the yogi can be in the self-realized position after conquering the insurmountable spell of maya, who presents herself as both the cause and effect of this material manifestation and is therefore very difficult to understand.

Purport by His Divine Grace by A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Bhagavad Gita 5.18

The similarity in the quality of the soul and the Supersoul, however, does not make them equal in quantity, for the individual soul is present only in that particular body whereas the Paramatma is present in each and every body. A Krsna conscious person has full knowledge of this, and therefore he is truly learned and has equal vision. The similar characteristics of the soul and Supersoul are that they are both conscious, eternal and blissful. But the difference is that the individual soul is conscious within the limited jurisdiction of the body, whereas the Supersoul is conscious of all bodies. The Supersoul is present in all bodies without distinction.

Posted by bb das @ 12/10/2005 08:38 AM PST

Why can't Siva just accept what Srila Prabhupada has repeatedly expressed to us. That is Bhagavatam from the Bhakta Bhagavata. It just has to be accepted "as it is", especially if we are conditioned souls prone to mental specuation based on our material experience and limited perspective.

Why should one be so proud of his "big brain". Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya was Brhaspati avatara the Spiritual Master of the demigods in his previous life and he could not figure it out with his brain. It requires mercy only from the Lord and His Pure Devotee.

It's a complete joke to think one can speculate and use material arguement and logic and apparent understanding of sastric references culled through a mundane brain to understand tattva, no matter how big we may think it is, this approach will never work.

Jaha bhagavata pada vaisnava stane ekanta asraya kara caitanya carane.

To get the mercy by hearing from the Vaisnava Bhakta Bhagavata is the only way to understand the tattva of the Bhagavatam. One needs the mercy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in order to recognize and put unflinching faith in their words and insructions.

One should be simple hearted (not foolish) and give up pride of one's so called scholarship and then one will be able to understand properly.

ys

bb das

Posted by Trivikrama Swami @ 12/10/2005 06:28 AM PST

Thanks for your humble letter Siva Prabhu. There are some things that will always remain as acintya to us jivas, perhaps this is one. I just recently found another incident on this subject from an interview with Sriman Gopal Chandra Ghosh in our Mulaprakriti's book "Our Srila Prabhupada- A Friend To All"
A wonderful book by the way.

He states there how he used to visit Srila Prabhupada at Radha Damodara Temple. Once he said that Srila Prabhupada had a fever and was sitting covered with a cloth blanket, reading Srimad-Bhagavatam. I bowed my head to his feet, and asked, 'You are not feeling well?' He said, 'No, I have a cold, so this medicinal cure will be helpful.' The next day when I returned he was happy, healthy, and was writing... I asked, 'Today you are feeling better?' He answered very mysteriously, 'Oh yes.' I asked again and he said, 'At night my Prabhupada came in my dream. He encouraged me saying, "You do work like Narotama Thakura, like Srinivas Acarya and like Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura."
Swami Maharaja told me joyfully, 'I have received mercy from my gurudeva. He blessed me and has given me power. I was too much anxious for the Bhagavata commentary. He said, "you just write and all Six Goswamis will help you." He also mentioned then that his gurudeva had come in front of him in sannyasa dress two or three times when he had been sickly.

In the next paragraph Sri Gopal Chandra Ghosh goes on to tell how Srila Prabhupada mentioned to him how he was also personally visited, not in a dream but directly, by Srila Rupa Goswami, Srila Sanantana Goswami, and Srila Jiva Goswami in babaji dress, who encouraged him and gave him mercy and guidance for his writing.

Posted by bb das @ 12/10/2005 03:05 AM PST

Siva ,

From my past question to you:

“Notice your lack of reply to my speaking of Your agenda for all to leave Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon. They're all just worshipping the Institution only right?”

I stopped listening to your speculative generalizations long ago… I just want all of the readers to see how you answer this one; which you have refused to up to this point. Stop dancing Siva and tell us straight if it is your agenda for all sincere devotees to leave Iskcon. If not, why in your opinion should they stay?

Your quote I pulled is just to show your mood and agenda that’s all. Let everyone see it for what it is. I quoted many verses from Srila Prabhupada’s instructions for not leaving Iskcon and you or Rocan have refused to even address what Prabhupada has said on these issues, repeatedly.

Can you show where Prabhupada is authorizing and instructing his disciples to leave Iskcon? Are you and Rocan our new authorities/ Gurus? Should we follow your examples even if it goes dead against Srila Prabhupada’s expressed will and instructions?

Then I suggested Iskcon devotees to pray to Srila Prabhupada and ask him for his guidance and help in these difficult times, wherein you replied that Srila Prabhupada cannot hear us nor can he help us anyway. That’s not what Prabhupada has said.

This is completely against what Srila Prabhupada has said. I showed Srila Prabhupada’s quotes on the topic and neither you nor Rocan has directly spoken to those quotes.

And then Rocan says, “Which brings us back to Shiva dasa’s very learned philosophical points, which he supported with irrefutable philosophy from our most authoritative disciplic sources.”

I quoted the most authoritative disciplic authority; Srila Prabhupada and you or Rocan just completely ignore what Srila Prabhupada has said on these issues.

Because it just doesn’t fit wit dah Agenda see!

Do you see a pattern folks? Are we gettn’ da point yet?
Da boys gut an Agenda.

As always Siva, it’s a pleasure exposing your speculative generalizations and your real Swarupa/ Agenda.

ys
bb das

Posted by Jahnava @ 12/09/2005 06:21 PM PST

Link now in place from old to new Taboo. (Thanks, Shiva!)

Posted by Anon @ 12/09/2005 06:05 PM PST

Shiva das: This Bhakti Ananda Goswami is a big mystery and having gone over his writings, they are very dense, a mish-mash of so many religious sentiments with tidbits of nectar interspersed and quite frankly, with all due respect to the Goswami, the average person cannot wade through many of his writings and posturings, except a few very highly intellectual individuals.

I'm still trying to comprehend Srila Rupa Goswami's "Bhakti-Rasmarta-Sindhu" after re-reading it many times which, by the way, is mush more stimulating and inspiring.

That said, we do not need his wriitngs. We have the writings of Srila Prabhupada (very easy to understand) Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, Bhativinoda Thakura, and the six goswami of vrndavana. That's all we need.

Posted by Anon @ 12/09/2005 05:45 PM PST

Haribol: Look, Prabhus, why are you falling into the hands of those who seek to undermine and suppress Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON movement? That's what they want, to divide and conquer. This is a fact.

On this, ISKCON's 40th anniversary, don't you find it odd that after 40 years there is not one sign of Krishna consciousness 100 from feet from any temple in North America? I know what Shiva das and Rocana das would say, but let's be candid, this is a shame.

Who are "they?" They are those in power including the US government who know Krishna conscious philosophy since the late 60's and who have done a damned good job of subverting and suppressing this ISKCON movement and the revolutionary Vedic literatures. Srila Prabhupada knew that a long time ago. It is not just that the urmoil is coming from within, it has, it is because the government and other real "organized religions" don't want this movement. We need to rock more boats in ISKCON and fight fire with fire perhaps. Something is better than nothing.

We don't want endless quotes from sastra. Save that for gita and Bhagavatam classes. Most devotees know the ropes anyway. What we need now is positive action is Krsna consciousness.

Don't you find it strange that there is no mass media in America promulgating Krishna consciousness on a large scale? No where outside of an ISKCON temple do you see or hear anything about Krsna save and except one's performing one's own sadhana in seclusion or otherwise.

Why must you all play into the hands of the demons (atheists and impersonalists?) That's what they want. To divide and conquer. And now they are succeeding by all this nonsense no matter which side feels they are correct.

Everyone on this blog has positive and not so positive points but while we are all arguing about, siddhanta, sampradaya-acarya, siksa/diksa, the fact is, Srila Prabhupada's movement is sufferering and morale is dangerously low.

Yes, I know what Rocana would eloquently say, but the fact remains something must be done beginning this year.

How about all of us creating a 200 blog posting about "How we can revive and push on Srila Prabhupada's ISKON with new and innovative preaching methods?" I think this would be more beneficial to all those in, out and coming to ISKCON in the not-too distant-future. That's all I have to say. Hare Krsna.

Posted by shiva das @ 12/09/2005 05:40 PM PST

Just a note to Jahnava Dasi-devotees reading the other thread may not know where this thread is, maybe you could add a link to here?

Posted by Mark @ 12/09/2005 05:40 PM PST

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Thank you very much Rocana Dasa and Jahnava and anyone else who is tending to maintain this website.

Please forgive me if I have been brusque in my postings, but I truly have been seeing action in trenches. On the other forums where I post regarding sensitive matters, provacateurs, saboteurs, and other agents of ill-will have been largely banished due to neglect, skillful exposure, or flat out banishment. I got a little comfy in recent days having the ability to carry on mature discussion of issues with nary a care, rumours of demons on the fringe not withstanding.

So I guess on one level I am grateful that you do not seem to have a banning policy because it has enabled me to test the old reflexes.

That said, I just finished reading Rocana Dasa’s latest post. It made good sense. I appreciate your clarity. So much so that I was prompted to dig through the mountain of ideas back on Taboo I in order to find a question I directed toward you, which I assume was buried amidst the pile on and escaped your attention.

Would you please consider it now?

I will repost it as it was/is.

Thank you in advance,

y.s.

Mark

Dear Rocana Dasa,

please accept my respectful obeisances.

In your latest post you wrote,

"My comprehension is that the original Gaudiya Matha and ISKCON, as they appeared during the lila periods of the most recent Sampradaya Acaryas, were modern manifestations of Lord Caitanya’s eternal Sankirtan Movement. Today, we have the perverted reflections."

Then, after elaborating upon many of the ways in which the perversions occured, you said,

"Just who, and in our circumstance what “institution”, is most purely representing our Sampradaya Acaryas is another contentious issue."

I contend that the most recent Sampradaya Acharya left quite detailed instructions for all of us admittedly "Sadhana Bhaktas".

In sum they were to institute Daiva Varnashrama Dharma (a.k.a. ISKCON). This was to be our sadhana which would gracefully relieve us of our material desires in order that we progress to the next stages of bhakti.

If as you say all that is left is a perverted reflection of ISKCON,

Do you contend that those instructions regarding Srila Prabhupada's plan are null and void because it was a failure?

Or do you believe with faith, we will be empowered to institute his plans regardless of the mess that has been made by the less apt and or sincere?

Thank you for your consideration.

Hare Krishna

y.s.

Mark

Posted by shiva das @ 12/09/2005 05:32 PM PST

Rocana prabhu that was another very moving post, even more so then the last one.

I came across another moving article today by a vaisnava sannyasi who works outside of Iskcon and I posted it at my blog. I titled it "ananda cinmaya rasa" you can see at http://vedic-varnashrama-blog.blogspot.com/

Posted by Mark @ 12/09/2005 03:05 PM PST

Hari Bol!

All Glories to the assembled devotees.

I find myself under fire. All I do is speak the truth I know and as I see it. I was told to expect this.

Recently BB Das has stated,

"It looks like your the only one "fully alligned". I am sorry for not recognizing that sooner."

Is it possible for one not "Fully Aligned to recognize that others are not as well, and point it out?
I say yes, and claim that position. If people working together cannot stand constructive criticism from one another, there is no cooperation.

And regarding alignment, considering some of the antics I see perpetrated by some people within the current "Iskcon" corporation, Gross Criminal Malfeasance comes to mind, forget about alignment with Srila Prabhupada's ideals.

Next he states,

"I miss understood, I thought those who are following the 4 regs and chanting sixteen rounds daily trying to give up offenses and preaching day and night to as many sincere souls as possible to surrender to Krsna was fully aligned with the Vision of Srila Prabhupada."

To me someone like that would be sincerely following, and Aligning, day by day, more fully with Srila Prabhupada's vision.

That person would not be molesting children, perpetrating misogynistic policies, nor mismanaging Srila Prabhupada's temples.

A person like that would neither have the time, nor the lack of intelligence to misinterpret simple statements of another and hurl libelous remarks on an internet forum.

And lastly,

"I guess I have not really figured it all out."

Well that makes two of us. Only I don't pretend to. I know what I know, and say it out loud. Big Deal.

This is as ugly as it gets? I hoped so, but here comes Pat and he says,

"Please do not try to silence me. It won’t work. You don’t scare me either."

I told you to go back to school, after you made a hypocritcal cheap shot. You interpret that as you will. The fear you may be feeling is because you are way out of line, and have no leg to stand on in the face of the truth.

Next Pat said,

"You said that you belonged to an underground movement in America which does battle with the government or the “so called Illuminati” - or whoever they are supposed to be. You mentioned how you lost comrades to death in this endeavour. Now you say that you are prepared to transform these efforts to do battle against the devotees serving within Iskcon."

Again a gross misinterpretation, and perhaps on some level an innocent but naive misunderstanding of my position due to not reading what I have said in the past.

I would NEVER do battle with a DEVOTEE serving within Iskcon.

Any DEVOTEE still serving in Iskcon is under strain and stress and in a difficult position due to the highest leadership being CO-OPTED BY NON-DEVOTEES. ENVIOIUS PEOPLE IN THE GARB OF VAISNAVAS QUOTING SCRIPTURE.

Any devotee still serving within Iskcon should know that they have my full support and I will do everything in my meager allotment of power to help them.

And yes I am willing to die trying.
And probably will. Big deal.

As for which school you should go back to,

Read Srila Prabhupada's books that were published before 1977. This includes the Bhagavad Gita, The Nectar of Devotion, The Srimad Bhagavatam, and the Chaitanya Charitamrita.

Then read a book or take a class on Logic, Reason, and Persuasion.

This will help you debate according to your level, and help you to avoid hypocracy.

By the way, for anyone who thinks I get a kick out of wading through muck like this, forget it. It is a thankless task, but I won't back down.

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!

y.s.

Mark

Posted by Rocana dasa @ 12/09/2005 02:43 PM PST

Trivikrama Swami, my long lost friend, finally opened the blog door long enough to make a substantial statement. Initially his main concern appeared to be bringing the stray sheep back to flock. Anon must have warned him of Rocana, the wolf in sheep’s clothing.

I have found this subject of prayer most fascinating. When I stated that Shiva dasa and I sing from the same page of the bhajan book, I didn’t mean we are of the very same voice. I meant that we both lean more to the siddhanta side of the equation rather than the sadhana. Religion with philosophy was Srila Prabhupada’s recommendation. Shiva dasa invited us to consider an aspect of our siddhanta that most devotees don’t give enough serious thought.

Myself, and many of my Godbrothers/sisters were swept up into Srila Prabhupada’s lila pastimes at a very young, naive time of our lives. As such, we tended to be very sentimental especially in regards to our relationship with Srila Prabhupada. Back then, we didn’t have much time or opportunity to share our realizations with one other, or to systematically study our advanced philosophy. Instead, we were fully engaged in the “Sankirtan MOVEMENT”.

Before Pragosha dasa starts yelling "Let’s all go back to simple, simple", let me clarify that I feel the simplicity factor during that period of Srila Prabhupada’s pastimes was the required mood for his mission to be as successful as it was.. In other words, it was Krsna’s arrangement. Now I feel it is high time we old timers re-think some of our past impressions and challenge old, so-called realizations with the understanding that they are more than likely saturated with sentimentalism due to immaturity. That is both the right and duty of those entering this stage of our life.

Religion without enough philosophical realization leads to sentimentalism. We can take note that Srila Prabhupada’s focus was on presenting our siddhanta and distributing the philosophy, not on perfecting and expanding the sadhana side of the process. Which brings us back to Shiva dasa’s very learned philosophical points, which he supported with irrefutable philosophy from our most authoritative disciplic sources.

One of the first philosophical points Srila Prabhupada drove home to us was that he was not God, and it was very dangerous nonsense to even insinuate that he was. Trivikrama Swami can, I’m sure, recall the early episode ('69-'70) when a few “big-timers” began widely propagating the misconception than Srila Prabhupada was, in fact, God. When Srila Prabhupada got wind of these goings-on he was unusually furious, and came close to expelling the perpetrators out of his movement. From this pastime we can conclude that any “talk” along those lines is forbidden. History of religions indicates the tendency of sentimental neophytes to do just that – turn the messenger into God. This not only happened in Christianity, but also within our Vaisnava tradition, with the Swami Narayana sect going down that path.

I haven’t yet had a chance to give all of Shiva dasa’s recent arguments careful thought, and I don’t want to prematurely present a “half baked” response. As I have previously mentioned, in historical retrospect this topic highlights a very important aspect of our siddhanta. In our established sadhana practices we have in some ways deified Srila Prabhupada to such an extent that in the future, if the philosophy isn’t emphasized and kept fresh, the same thing could happen to ISKCON that happened to the Swami Narayana's. The western institutional “church-like” model has exacerbated this phenomenon of worshipping Srila Prabhupada as if were a Visnu-tattva deity or a Demi-God.

The quality of consciousness of the person “praying” is the ultimate issue, and that is almost impossible to determine at a glance. Chanting the maha mantra in and of itself is a form of prayer, but the consciousness of the chanter depends upon their philosophical realization -- especially in the beginning, long before pure emotions are genuinely displayed. By carefully studying the life of the practitioner with respect to their words (verbalization of their realizations), purity of character and the steadiness of their devotional practices, we can judge by results -- but that isn’t very easy, except on a “local” level. What is possible is to make sure that the proper siddhanta is being preached by the authorities, and especially the diksa gurus. We are now discovering in this blog, which is just a very small sample or cross section of our community, the alarming degree of disagreement on a philosophical cornerstone of our siddhanta - how the rank and file practitioner simultaneously sees and worships their bonafide Spiritual Master. They are instructed to envision them as being as good as God, but this must be based upon a solid philosophical comprehension about the profound difference between the Guru and God. The real question is whether or not the necessary training, teaching and testing is taking place. Off hand, I would say it's not!

Praying is a fundamental devotional practice. Throughout the pages of the Srimad Bhagavatam, as much, if not more, content is dedicated towards the prayers recited aloud by the exalted personalities as there is to the storyline. All the prayers are very philosophical in nature rather than being sentimental, including those offered by women like Queen Kunti. In Srila Prabhupada's purports, the philosophical message (siddhanta) is encapsulated primarily within the context of the prayers spoken by the main characters. This is a message in itself. We know very well what happened to Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s movement by the time Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura appeared on the scene. Sahhija-ism in many shapes and forms had eclipsed Pure Bhakti due to a deviation from our siddhanta. In contrast, both the author of Srimad-Bhagavatam, the characters speaking in it, and Srila Prabhupada in his purports focused on the philosophy over the storyline.

In my mind, putting a great deal of emphasis on something as subjective and interpretive as the dreams of the neophyte is swimming in dangerous waters. Trying to make a big “philosophical” point over a story about a simple show of hands of admittedly very novice newcomers is quite sentimental and un-scientific. Both Praghosa dasa and Trivikrama Swami trumpet the “kiss” principle (keep it simple, stupid), which may have some merit, but when it comes to realizing our siddhanta without deviation, as we are witnessing right here in this blog, it’s not that easy at all.

The purification process, individually applied, is very complex. Individualism or personalism is the bedrock that distinguishes our siddhanta from all others The purification process is not a mechanical function, rather it requires an advanced devotee understanding the unique personality of a disciple. As a specially empowered Sampradaya Acarya, Srila Prabhupada could accomplish much, although physically absent from most of his disciples. He compensated for problems partially by referring to his writings, and also by relying on his organization, ISKCON. Today’s ISKCON diksas do very little writing and for the most part are absent in the spiritual lives of their disciples. Is Trivikrama Swami suggesting that the disciples of the living gurus communicate to their “living” Gurus primarily through prayer, because for many that’s the only way to get through to them?

I recently spoke with one of Satsvarupa Goswami's disciples, who hasn’t seen or heard from him in twenty years. Do you suggest that this disciple pray to one of Satsvarupa’s paintings or read his weirdo books for guidance and inspiration? Should the disciples pray to him rather than directly to Srila Prabhupada? And if they do, will their prayers have the same potency or desired result? How much “philosophy” compared to sentiment will be displayed such prayers?

We can assume that Srila Prabhupada and Caitya Guru will be merciful and will hear and respond to the prayers of sincere disciples of all these “unbonafide” spiritual masters. From what I have seen, objectively, many are far from being transparent via media, therefore the significance of Caitya Guru in our present circumstance should be recognized and appreciated.

As I recall, when a jivatma begins following the process for becoming Krsna Conscious, as presented by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu under the guidance of his true representatives, then Caitya Guru, Supersoul, takes on the merciful mood of Lord Caitanya rather than His normal detached demeanor, as described in the Sastra. Let’s all pray that this is what is happening in the hearts of all the sincere “neglected” disciples.

Srila Prabhupada executed his deputed mission out of love and devotion for his nitya-siddha Spiritual Master, both of them being sent from above to indiscriminately flood the planet with the knowledge of how to develop Unalloyed Love of Godhead. To what degree individually we take advantage of this mercy is impossible for me to determine in anyone but myself. Everyone finds themselves in uniquely different circumstances, as observed within this “drop in the ocean” blog space. On one level, I’m assuming this dialogue is divinely orchestrated for the benefit of all readers. The way we make advancement in Krsna Consciousness is by observing and appreciating the inconceivable diversity that results from the “individuality” aspect of all living entities and their creations -- what to speak of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Who appears in infinite Qualities, Forms and Pastimes and is the Source of everything.

From one perspective, we could say that these blog submissions are themselves a form of prayer: one blogger praying that their inner thoughts will be heard and appreciated by any and all that take the time to hear what they have to say. Some bloggers speak primarily philosophically, others very emotionally. Everyone is trying, as best they can, to follow the rule of authenticity, guru, sastra and sadhu but as we can see, even with this principle in full play there are many uniquely personalized perspectives. Who would wish it to be any other way? Not me, that’s why I’m against religiosity.

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