12/15/2005
"In a recent article, Prahlad Maharaja Prabhu correctly described various popular approaches to dealing with difficulties within ISKCON. However, there are certain relative truths that need to be considered by all for the equation to be complete." Read full article.
Replies: 32 Comments
Posted by Bhakta Ray @ 12/26/2005 04:49 AM PST
Bhaktin Rebecca
"for the complaint seems to be about style and technique, not the actual ideas,"
Wrong. It is about effective argumentation, which is not just a matter of style. It comes under the heading of Logic and Rhetorical speech, not English Lit.
His presentation leaves too much open to interpretation. His invocation of the "Chosen People Syndrome" is not very useful.
If I understand it to mean what I think it means - that these self-authorized administrators can do no wrong, then it's saying very little apart from the fact these authorities have defined a la Catholic Church their own authority.
That's called a thesis. It is what needs to be proven. It's not enough to just invent some high-souding label thinking that somehow settles everything.
Once he has demonstrated that in fact the GBC's authority is illegitimate, it would stand to reason that they would not be open to reform or honest discussion.
It does not follow that their gurus, albeit illegitimate (bogus) would necessarily think they can do no wrong.
What the article says may very well be true, but it is not at all persuasive towards believing its claims to be true.
I'm glad to hear that you are not going discuss any more, since in that last couple of post you have been not so much discussing as blindly defending Yadunandana Pada dasa.Posted by Bhaktin Rebecca @ 12/25/2005 11:13 PM PST
Haribol,
This is my last post on this thread, I hope! Harideva (who apparently had an easier time digesting the article than Bhakta Ray) hit the nail on the head! Still, I would like to make one last attempt at clarifying (something, anything!) before I "move on."
My comment about teaching an English class was directed towards this statement:
"I've seen shorter articles, even commentaries that say more , more logically and more convincingly.
If a writer is only going to make broad sweeping statements and not bother to connect the dots, then he had better focus on something smaller or write enough to clarify his statements,"
for the complaint seems to be about style and technique, not the actual ideas, the kind of stuff addressed in an English composition class. However, after reading this:
"it's doubtful exactly what pointshe made and how effective he was in making them,"
it seems perhaps what Bhakta Ray could do instead is take a class in interpreting literature. Whatever.
Why do we like to hear or read more from some people than others, even if they are saying the same thing? It is because of the nature of the presentation, the mood, the style. People present the same thing in different manners according to their own nature. An example would be vaisnavas from each varna - they would each teach that Krishna is the most attractive, but in different manners. Another example would be teachers at a college teaching the same math course - naturally they would teach somewhat differently from each other, and some students would find one easier than the other, and vice versa. The same applies to written works - we find ourselves more in tune with some authors than others.
I know for a fact that many people understood just what Yadunandana pada Prabhu was saying, and found the article sufficiently effective. I'm sorry if some did not, but no one piece will speak to everyone, save and except something coming from the Supreme Lord and/or His pure representative. Even then, as should be evident by the history of any religion or spiritual group (certainly we see it with ISKCON), a piece may be interpreted in a multitude of ways. Some of those may be in accord with the author's original intention, some not.
All the same, we each have the right to write and post our thoughts on any matter. To suggest that one should not do so unless they are writing a piece which will be crystal clear and of satisfying depth and breadth to ALL who may read it is to suggest a form of self-censorship which, if truly carried out, would result in no one posting anything. None of us will ever write something that speaks to everyone as it was intended to. Sometimes, readers just don't gel with the author's style.
Nevertheless, writing goes on, and a site like the Sun is vital to getting all kinds of writing out there for people to share and connect with like-minded individuals. We should not expect to connect with everyone, even if, underneath it all, we have the same ultimate goal. We may have very similar understandings of Prabhupada's teachings, even, but if we express ourselves in ways which are unfamiliar to each other, we may have some misunderstandings.
Considering this, I would say it can very well be a literary matter, for writing is a form of personal expression, and while we just "get" some people, there are others whom we just don't. Seek out the ones you really connect with, the ones with whom you really get what they are saying. The debate and discussion will be much more fruitful if you do not have to spend eons just trying to explain your terms or all the implicit stuff, or even what your point or purpose was in the first place. This will save time and headaches.
And to Bhakta Ray:
I have nothing against you, we just don't connect. I apologize if I've offended you. That is always uncalled for. I realize that my last post could have seemed to be a much more negative one than I intended. It is the nature of this medium that the exact feeling in which a statement is made is not conveyed so much as it is left to interpretation. I'm not saying there was no sarcasm or negative feeling at all, but it wasn't much, and I wouldn't really use the word hostile. Still, I apologize for being less than a devotee. I haven't quite made it that far yet, though I haven't given up on getting there some day. Wish me luck!
Good night and good luck to all!
y/s Bhaktin RebeccaPosted by Bhakta Ray @ 12/24/2005 06:41 PM PST
"It seems that this blog has proven the author's points"
Hmm. That's quite a declaration since it's doubtful exactly what pointshe made and how effective he was in making them.Posted by Bhakta Ray @ 12/24/2005 06:39 PM PST
Well Prabhu,
Your sarcasm and hostility is duly noted. This has nothing to do with English and everything to do with the ability to debate honestly logically and effectively without making personal remarks. That is, being a gentleman, as Prabhupada has pointed out several times. There is a long tradition of debating philosophical issues in Vaisnavism.
I doubt it ever reduces to being literary. That's for the long winded and the illogical.Posted by Harideva @ 12/24/2005 01:36 PM PST
It seems that this blog has proven the author's points. Hmmm! Perhaps it is time to move on?
Posted by Bhaktin Rebecca @ 12/24/2005 11:50 AM PST
Jai Prabhu,
go teach an English class.Posted by Bhakta Ray @ 12/24/2005 02:54 AM PST
Bhaktin Rebecca Prabhu,
You said:
"The author did not write a book, "
I don't think it was necessary to do so to make the points that were attempted. (assuming they were the points you infered from it).
I've seen shorter articles, even commentaries that say more , more logically and more convincingly.
If a writer is only going to make broad sweeping statements and not bother to connect the dots, then he had better focus on something smaller or write enough to clarify his statements.Posted by Bhaktin Rebecca @ 12/23/2005 08:45 PM PST
Haribol Bhakta Ray,
You wrote:
"One may be materially motivated and still be sincere"
Yes, I agree completely, and have said as much. There is, as has been mentioned, a continuum. It is not black and white. I think we agree here.
As for the article, it is just that - an article. The author did not write a book, so of course everything may not be discussed in lengthly detail. It is a piece to provoke thought, which it has done. It pointed out some things that should be considered and contemplated. It was not a thorough examination of all such difficulties in spiritual life. It was not a thesis paper. It was a thought provoking article. It raised some good points.
If it got some people to look at things in a new way, or to look where perhaps they hadn't before, I think it accomplished what it was meant to.
y/s Bhaktin RebeccaPosted by Bhakta Ray @ 12/23/2005 06:06 AM PST
Bhaktin Rebecca Prabhu,
Yes insincerity certainly implies material motivation. When one is insincere one has no spiritual intention. That is clear. The converse, however, does not hold.
One may be materially motivated and still be sincere, otherwise so many people who try the bhakti yoga process could be accused of insincerity.
If one only implies and does not state,especially such a critical point, it is too easy to misunderstand.
That is my problem with the article. So much implication. So many things to infer and then only an anecdote about isthagosti.
On the matter of WHO it applies to, I did not emphasize authorities anymore than anybody else.
Also I did not only give an example of unconscious chanting. I cited all devotees at all stages. One must be very careful in judging the spiritual status of a manifest devotee not to jump to easy conclusions just because it simplifies the explanation. That is why I emphasize insincerity and not following the sadhana as a red flag to that insincerity. All the fallen so-called acaryas were guilty of that.
When I heard that Rameswara was not chanting his rounds I became very suspicious. Then when I heard the explanation that he didn't have to because he was already self-realized, then I knew there was cheating going on.
He was disobeying the orders of the diksa guru. That is one of the ten offenses against the
Holy Name. Immediately all discussion aside, material motivation or not, he is a rascal. He is a cheater.Posted by Bhaktin Rebecca @ 12/22/2005 12:40 PM PST
My point was that material motivation and sincerity go hand in hand. It may or may not be a simple linear correlation, but the relationship is there.
I know very well that the ignorant benefit from chanting, even without the intent to please the Lord. That is different from what Bhaktivinode Thakur was talking about. One who has some knowledge also is held more accountable for their actions, and the chance for "unknown devotional service," as we see in the example you gave, does not apply.
I would also like to point out yet again - since no one seems to take notice of this - that the things phenomena mentioned in the article and what I have been driving at APPLY TO EVERYONE, NOT JUST THOSE IN POSITIONS OF AUTHORITY!! We can spend all day discussing how and why leaders go off track, if ever they were on track, but the fact is, these things are universal in spiritual life, no matter what group one is in or what their service is. We need to consider how such things are relevant to our own path. We need to examine our own motive/desire/sincerity if we are to do any real good in our endeavors to improve what goes on in the group.
As for this statement:
"There are so many devotess at different levels of realization one cannot dismiss them with a broad brush on the basis of material desire,"
I do not see where anyone was doing such a thing as dismissing anyone on the basis of material desire. What I see in the article and ensuing discussion is an attempt at seeing more clearly the actual positions of people claiming to be devotees. This is important if we are to interact with others appropriately, work on establishing a truly spiritual society, and make significant progress in our own spiritual lives.
When you say this:
"That was the signal they were insincere,"
you are hitting on what Yadunandana pada Prabhu was doing in his article - pointing out signals that people are not necessarily the devotees they claim to be. For some, it may be a case of trying to seem more advanced than they are (sometimes even deluding themselves), for others it may be a matter of "demons in disguise."
I think we probably agree more than it may seem. Perhaps the difficulty is more of a linguistic one? In academics, this kind of misunderstanding is avoided by beginning with defining the terms used, so everyone knows exactly what is being discussed and what is not, and this prevents much confusion with how words are used.
My perception of sincerity includes motive, as I tried to explain in my last post. I cannot seperate the two. I measure the quality, type, and intensity of sincerity by motive. One can be sincere in purpose for things other than coming to serve the Lord in pure devotion. One can sincerely endeavor for nonsense. That is why motive is key in understanding one's position and the nature of sincerity, if any.
Sincerity was not left out of the equation, it was implicit, though perhaps it would have been nice to make it explicit.Posted by Bhakta Ray @ 12/22/2005 04:33 AM PST
Bhaktin Rebecca,
Mataji, I understand the problems of imperfect realization and the 'mixed' motives which you speak of. I've been disrespected more by devotees than by non-devotees. I chalk that up to my karma and/or the disrepecting devotee's being in Maya.
There are so many devotess at different levels of realization one cannot dismiss them with a broad brush on the basis of material desire.
When you say, however,
"Those who simply endeavor for material reasons, however, with no aim to please the Lord (and devotees)" we approach agreement.
Material reasons and 'no aim to please the Lord' become a disqualification when there is a deliberate attempt to deceive. That is when one is insincere.
Realize that karmis chanting have no aim to please the Lord because they don't even know who Krsna is. On Hari Nama we are chanting to crowds of people who are engage in sense gratification and have absolutely no knowledge or intention of pleasing Krsna. Yet there is benefit. This is scriptural.
âpannah samsritim ghorâm
yan-nâma vivas'o grinan
tatah sadyo vimucyeta
yad bibheti svayam bhayam
âpannah--being entangled; samsritim--in the hurdle of birth and death; ghorâm--too complicated; yat--what; nâma--the absolute name; vivas'ah--unconsciously; grinan--chanting; tatah--from that; sadyah--at once; vimucyeta--gets freedom; yat--that which; bibheti--fears; svayam--personally; bhayam--fear itself.
TRANSLATION
Living beings who are entangled in the complicated meshes of birth and death can be freed immediately by even unconsciously chanting the holy name of Krishna, which is feared by fear personified.
Srimad Bhagavtam Canto 1 Chapter 1 Text 14
I must insist, therefore, that the argument from material motivation must be supplemented with an argument from insincerity.
The cheating gurus were not following the basic sadhana that Prabupada required.
That is deadly. That was the signal they were insincere.Posted by Bhakta Ray @ 12/22/2005 04:08 AM PST
Shiva dasa,
you wrote:
"He was using the analogy of the Tower of Babel."
I figured that because the sentence before the sentence I was commenting on "The more you strive for the nonmaterial through material means"
is
"The story of the Tower of Babel drives home a relevant and logical point that should be simple common sense. "
And I perfectly understand the analogy of trying to reach heaven without any spiritual assist.
It is not relevant to the process of devotional service which is performed using material objects but offering them in the service of Krsna. The key principle is 'dovetailing' the material and thereby giving it spiritual force.
If a guru uses an airplane or a computer, these are material, but as long as he does it to spread KC, it is spiritual. So the global statement prohibiting material means for reaching a nonmaterial goal is seriously flawed.
Since it's not the means that disqualifies (so long as the means is not illicit, like eating meat) but the motive,we're back to the material motivation argument.
That argument is so often articulated incorrectly that it does more harm than good.
Bhakti yora is even tolerant of material desires provide one's ultimate Goal is Krsna.
But sometimes that isn't even necessary, since even the unconscious chanting of the Holy Name or performance of devotional service has benefit.
That's why it must boil down to an issue of sincerity. If one is insincere, which implies deception, then one isn't innocently or unconsciously performing devotional service. One has the deliberate intention of using the process to cheat. One has determined NOT to reach Krsna. That is a demon, or at least the worse form of rascaldom.Posted by Mark @ 12/21/2005 06:34 PM PST
Dear Bhakta Ray,
I agree that in extreme cases some authority figures are not in any way striving for the non-material. Like Rebecca points out, there is a range of possible degrees of sincere and less than sincere effort towards that goal.
The paragraph I chose from Yadunanada Pada Dasa's post, especially the part where he said,
"However, anyone who believes or claims to believe in God but does not (when within their power) serve the needs of others, especially at their grieving requests, is clearly not a Godly or monastic person."
Where "grieving requests" refers to his earlier example of requests to cease an activity that is "inconsiderate or hurts you in some manner, whether it be making noise or disrespecting your rights."
And he says, "Ignoring such requests, or not wanting to hear them, is selfish, uncaring, and arrogant."
These are what I still believe shows that he was alluding to insincerity.
He concludes that...
"What it actually means is that if the effort itself of trying to spread the mission is selfish and mundane in intention, disregarding others in any manner whatsoever, and/or clouded over by personal goals for mundane comfort or status, then that effort is in itself material and will not bring any significant spiritual result."
You said that insincerity connotes duplicity which is intention to deceive. While this does describe what an insincere person is capable of, the singular dictionary definition of insincerety is hypocrisy. The fine line is whether a person is intentionally decieving, using premeditation, which is the extreme of pure demonic behavior, or if they are just a victim using a defense mechanism in a situation where someone is actually trying to help them for a change, but they can't yet tell the difference because all they have ever known is abuse, so they always look to duck and weave. I think on some level that level of insincerety applies to almost everyone who was not Srila Prabhupdada in this lifetime.
I hope how you can see that Yadunanda Pada Dasa's example of someone who accepts a position of power in a Spiritual institution who then perpetrates all of the behaviours he mentioned, all boiling down to disregarding others is the epitome of hypocrisy as the position is ideally used to strictly serve others needs, and such poor behavior can only be the result of an insincere motive for assuming the position, but not ALWAYS intentionally duplicitous.
I am just trying to show you that the people involved here are actually seeing the same thing as you in general unless you believe that some are not seeing as many demonically duplicitous leaders there are in your view, and are fooling themselves. Depending on the person, you may be right.
Hare Krishna
y.s.
MarkPosted by Bhaktin Rebecca @ 12/21/2005 04:51 PM PST
I just read Shiva Prabhu's latest after posting mine. Very good take on the "striving for nonmaterial through material means."
When we do have mixed motives, that is when we are susceptable to the "Chosen People Syndrome." If we do fall into that trap, however, our progress is affected due to the offenses we may commit thinking that whatever we do is good because we are the chosen ones, and our goal is good. The key to overcoming such a syndrome would seem to be taking a good long look at oneself and seeing one's actual position of being of mixed quality. Then one could understand that not everything they do is with the pure motive of pleasing the Supreme Lord. Treating aspiring devotees like crap certainly doesn't sound like something that Sri Krishna would find pleasing!
Those who simply endeavor for material reasons, however, with no aim to please the Lord (and devotees) would fall on the demonic end of the spectrum. They attempt to hijack the Lord's Sankirtan Movement for their own material purposes, and there is nothing at all devotional about it.Posted by Bhaktin Rebecca @ 12/21/2005 04:33 PM PST
What is the desire of a pure devotee? To please Sri Krishna. What is the motive behind everything a pure devotee does? Pleasing Sri Krishna.
What is the desire of one wrapped up in material consciousness? To gratify their own senses. What is the motive behind the actions of such persons? Their own sense-grat (extended sense-grat included, for those of you familiar with the concept).
Motive and desire are interchangeable terms in cases like these where what you are discussing is THE DRIVING FORCE BEHIND AN ACTION, which is precisely what I was talking about, and I'm pretty darn sure it's also what Yadunandana pada Prabhu was refering to in some parts of his article.
It is the motive which determines whether an action is mundane, devotional service, or mixed. Perhaps I should have taken the time to deliver a five-page essay clarifying this in my earlier post, but I had wrongly assumed that people were familiar with this truth.
As explained at countless Sunday feast programs, the difference between a devotee cooking and a non-devotee cooking is that the devotee is cooking FOR KRISHNA. Same with everything else devotees do that look mundane to those who do not know why the devotee acts. Again, why does the devotee do anything? TO PLEASE THE LORD. That is the desire, the motive of the devotee.
Nectar of Devotion 1.1.11
anyabhilasita-sunyam
jnana-karmadyanavritam
anakulyena krsnanu
silanam bhaktir uttama
"When first-class devotional service developes, one must be devoid of all material desires, knowledge obtained by philosophy, and fruitive action. The devotee must constantly serve Krsna favorably, as Krsna desires."
This translation comes from the Bhakti Sastri Verse Book, 1998, Philadelphia Campus, VIHE.
As explained in the course, first-class devotional service refers to pure devotional service. So what does Krishna desire, really? Again, something we should all know very by now. Does He want cauliflower pakoras cooked to just a particular tenderness with a certain set of spices, with a specific chutney? Or does He want our undying, uninterupted devotion to Him? He wants our love, and when you love someone, you desire to please them any way you can. These things have been explained by Srila Prabhupada. I am unable to cite the exact words off the top of my head, nor do I have the time or patience to look it all up, but these things should already be known to anyone who has taken the time to actually read Prabhupada's books carefully. Maybe if Shiva Prabhu has nothing else to do and feels so inclined, he can quote the relevant passages to back me up on this, but frankly, it should not be necessary, these things are basic and should be well known and understood.
The point about motive is that if you perform an arati or take prasadam or carry out the duties of a temple president, whatever the action, if you do it because you desire some material thing, if your motive is for something material, then that which you do IS NOT DEVOTIONAL SERVICE, since devotional service is something done with an aim to please Sri Krishna (technically, pleasing the Lord's real devotees is also included, since pleasing Krishna and His devotees is the same thing).
MOTIVE is not only relevant, IT IS THE KEY!
Also explained in the Bhakti Sastri course, for those of you who may consider that truth may be learned there, is that HAVING material desires, in and of itself, does not disqualify one from PURE devotional service, even. It is only if those desires interfere with the execution of devotional service, which by the definitions of the Acharyas is uninterupted and done soley with the aim to please Sri Krishna (again, pure devotees included), that one's service is deemed to be something other than pure devotional service.
It is at this point where we turn to discussing sincerity. If one IS sincere, then they WILL, by definition, be attempting to please the Lord/pure devotees.
If one is insincere, then they will NOT be attempting to please the Lord etc. It could be argued that materialists seek to please the Lord in order to get material things, but that is not really pleasing to the Lord, now is it? At least not if you consider that what really is pleasing to the Lord is attempts to serve Him out of love, just to please Him, and no other MOTIVE.
In short, insincere people have the wrong motives. Sincere people have the right one, the pleasure of the Lord for its own sake.
Now, I would like to point out a little word I mentioned previously: MIXED. While we are on the path, we are bound to have mixed motives. We get up at 4am for mangal arati to please guru and Krishna and also so we don't get introuble, because we don't like to get in trouble, and we certainly would not like to find ourselves kicked out on the street. Just an example, not necessarily applicable to everyone.
Sincerity and the mixture of motive both occure on a continuum. As one progresses in spiritual life, there is more sincerity and also the mixture of motives gradually shifts, with the motive to please Krishna increasing and the motive to please self/extended self decreasing. This occurs as we sincerely endeavor in our attempts at sadhana.
As for whether or not an insincere person chants japa, generally, they would not be likely to do it except to perpetuate a false imageof themselves or with a view for some material gain. Materially motivated religion is not sincere spiritual practice, it is material itself, it is sincerely material.
It is entirely possible to perform even deity worship in a state of consciousness wherein one is simply "going through the motions," as once pointed out by Ravindra-svarupa Prabhu. Japa can be the same. When it is, what occurs is described by Srila Bhaktivinode: the chanting is more or less just meaningless repetition. We get about as much benefit as the man warming himself from a candle a mile away from him. Some benefit may be there, yes, but it is so small that one could chant for millions of lifetimes that way and not really get anywhere.
Our sucess depends on getting the mercy of the Lord and His devotees by endeavoring sincerly (having proper motive) to please Them.
Yadunandana pada Prabhu's article is a call to consider whether or not what seems to be devotional service really is, and I maitain that this scrutiny should be applied not only to persons in positions of authority, but to others as well. Perhaps most importantly, we should cast more than a fleeting glance at our OWN motives for whatever it is we do, for we must be striving to purify ourselves first and foremost if we want at all to purify any movement to which we may belong. Otherwise, our attempts will blow up in our faces.
I hope I have been sufficiently clear this time around. If not, well then I suspect it will be pointed out to me. Thank you for your patience.
y/s Bhaktin RebeccaPosted by shiva das @ 12/21/2005 03:31 PM PST
Bhakta Ray your wrote:
In fact he attributes these problems of miscommunication to "striving for the nonmaterial through material means."
I don't agree because I don't even know what that means. What material means? He doesn't tell us. If anything, he is repeating the 'materially motivated' argument I've heard a dozen times and that has no force.
He was using the analogy of the Tower of Babel. They were trying to build a stairway to heaven and they ended up losing the ability to even communicate with each other what to speak of accomplishing their goal. The point I feel he was making is that if the goal of the leaders of Iskcon is to expand Iskcon in every way, but the method to attain that is materialistic (rajasic and tamasic) instead of spiritual (sattvic) then that inevitably leads to the falling apart of those plans.
For example: A leader in Iskcon wants to build some big project or lead some section of Iskcon as GBC. But his attitude and treatment towards those under his authority is egotistic, selfish, without compassion and exploitative. But he is trying to accomplish his goals of advancing the preaching mission. Due to his "chosen people syndrome" he believes that he is above reproach and above even kindness, compassion, and sensitivity. He treats everyone who volunteers their lives and works under him, as slaves. They are told in no uncertain terms what their duties are e.g "You are lucky to be here and if you don't like the way you are treated you can leave and suffer an eternity of rebirths as worms in stool, you should expect no reward of any type, no kind of financial help, no type of medical help, no say in anything really, and you must just submit like a menial slave to my divine authority. I will oversee everything when I'm not busy flying around the world sightseeing and hobnobbing with my fellow "authorized" leaders. Sure, I will have a nice home or homes and nice cars, but I need it, you don't need anything but to shut up and work hard. If you don't then that's a sign of your insincerity and we don't take kindly to insincere types 'round these here parts, understand boy?"
So from my experience when living in Iskcon that behavior was commonplace. I would see people in positions of authority with a spiritual goal in mind trying to attain that goal through the above types of materialistic methods. There can also be other examples, like say trying to cover up criminal acts so that your "preaching work" isn't jeopardized. Let's say you have a plan to build some big temple but you need money to build it, you find out that people under your authority have commited unlawful acts (e.g child abuse), fearing that the bad publicity of that being found out would dry up your money sources for the building of your temple, you then try to cover up the criminal acts by various methods, which in the long run exacerbates that which you wished to avoid, and many children end up being harmed by your lack of effecient non materialisitically motivated action.
Then you wrote:The problem is that these authorities are NOT striving for the nonmaterial. They are not striving at all for anything but their own dreams of power.
I dunno. Maybe there is a mix. Maybe they are striving for the spiritual but they are flawed people who have positions of authority which makes exploitation for personal reward to hard to resist. Makes mistreatment of others a natural result of thinking themselves as empowered to be rulers. They are chosen by God because they have the positions they have, therefore they can do no wrong, therefore anyone who disagrees with them is wrong and against God and worthy of being treated harshly or unfairly. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely (Lord Acton)Posted by Bhakta Ray @ 12/21/2005 02:18 PM PST
Hari Bol! Mark.
You said:
"He is speaking about people who accept positions of power who act toward those they are responsible to with selfish agendas. Such a thing is incompatible with holding a position of power, because under divine guidance, materially powerful positions are only meant for Self-less service. This indicates an insincere committment in the first place when accepting such an office."
Yadunandana pada said:
"The more you strive for the nonmaterial through material means, the more you are destined to become confused and the distanced from your goal. Collectively, as with the people of Babel, this means arguing, fighting, and miscommunication. "
AND
"we still witness the Chosen People Syndrome, and we see fighting and miscommunication all around us, and it just doesn’t seem like we’re trying really hard to overcome it. "
Your clarification that these statements indicate insincerity, is an additional point, not logically inferable. "Not trying hard" doesn't amount to "insincere" . It's more like "not very serious".
Insincerity connotes duplicity, a deliberate intention to deceive. That may very well be the case, but he didn't say it 'in so many words'.
In fact he attributes these problems of miscommunication to
"striving for the nonmaterial through material means."
I don't agree because I don't even know what that means. What material means? He doesn't tell us. If anything, he is repeating the 'materially motivated' argument I've heard a dozen times and that has no force.
The problem is that these authorities are NOT striving for the nonmaterial. They are not striving at all for anything but their own dreams of power.
The whole article makes a few quick broad strokes using big labels like "Chosen People" and "Tower of Babel" and then cites an isthagosti anecdote.
All told, it doesn't add up to a convincing argument, but an incoherent one.Posted by Prahlada M dasa @ 12/21/2005 08:28 AM PST
I would like to express thanks to everyone who commented on my article: the so-called unfavourable as well as the favourable comments.
However, I make special mention of Mark's post at 07:21. I meant nothing more and nothing less than his painstaking clarification.
It may also help for everyone to know that my attempt(s) have a lesser sweep than is sometimes supposed. I am also not always impelled to comment on others' views. I am happy to simply read of other Vaisnavas' feelings and realisatons. However, as for myself, without the response of others, I would be living in a world with only my own monologue. So, in my own case, I am thankful.
I also feel it necessary to mention that my reference to any sastric verses and purports is never meant to limit them to my little viewpoint(s). I only hope that I do never misconstrue their meaning or misrepresent their intent and purpose.
In keeping with the season of goodwill, my obeisances and my heartfelt well-wishes to the entire body of Vaisnavas all over the world.
Vaisnavebhyo namo namah.
Prahlada M. dasaPosted by Mark @ 12/21/2005 07:21 AM PST
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Dear Bhakta Ray,
Though I appreciate your zeal and understanding of the real problems, I do not think your criticism of Yadunanda Pada Dasa is well founded on the whole. He used certain descriptors that point to insincerity. He is speaking about people who accept positions of power who act toward those they are responsible to with selfish agendas. Such a thing is incompatible with holding a position of power, because under divine guidance, materially powerful positions are only meant for Self-less service. This indicates an insincere committment in the first place when accepting such an office.
This next paragraph he wrote states his position regarding insincerety though I agree to some extent with you that it might be more poignant to use that word directly a couple times.
"When you ask someone to stop doing something that is inconsiderate or hurts you in some manner, whether it be making noise or disrespecting your rights, the kind and Godly (monastic) reply is be accommodating-to actually go out of their way to serve and accommodate the requests of others. Ignoring such requests, or not wanting to hear them, is selfish, uncaring, and arrogant. That may be acceptable to the atheists, as they are not breaking any of their own rules or being hypocritical in any manner by their standards. However, anyone who believes or claims to believe in God but does not (when within their power) serve the needs of others, especially at their grieving requests, is clearly not a Godly or monastic person. "
And regarding your very good point where you say,
A guru who does not maintain the basic sadhana that Prabhupada required has betrayed the fact that he has no intention of practicing bhakti in the first place. It's not because he has material desires. It's because he has NO desire to become Krsna conscious."
I often marvel at how long they have been able to appear to be doing so, following rules and regs and everyone hears their mouths speaking japa.
I was told Hiranyakasipu strictly followed the four regs, no chanting.
In the case of todays false gurus, they must be so powerfully fixed in their envy and insincerety that they can chant the holy name for years before it even begins to clean their dirty mind. It took a while for me to get some balance, and still cleaning. I guess it is a matter of degree.
And regarding all this NITPICKING about Prahlada Maharaja Dasa's paraphrasing of the elaborate purports to S.B. 7:5 30-32, I just read those verses and their purports.
I can see exactly why he summarized it the way he did. Here is what he originally posted.
"As Prahlada Maharaja points out in Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.5.30-32, in answer to his father, and as Srila Prabhupada elaborates in the purports, the spreading of Krsna consciousness cannot happen by any mundane effort or by persons implicated in mundane life."
First off, he did not state that this one statement was the total purport by Srila Prabhupada. Yadunanda Dasa already admitted his fault in using the quotes in his analysis without indicating he was quoting Prahlada M. Dasa, and also expressed his dismay that he was nitpicked about this. After reading those verses and their purports myself, I feel his frustration.
In those purports, Srila Prabhpada says that the words grha-vrata refers to "those whose ONLY AIM is to live comfortably with the body in the material world", and "they cannot understand Krsna".
He next refers to Bhagavad Gita 2.44 quoting "In the minds of those who are TOO attached to sense enjoyment and material opulence, and who are BEWILDERED by such things, the resolute determination for devotional service to the Supreme Lord does not take place." (CAPITAL EMPHASIS MINE)
Next he directly quotes Rsabhadeva from SB 5.5.2 saying "one must try to understand Krsna by serving a devotee"
And later in his purport to verse 32, he says, "Unless one takes shelter of a bona fide, fully Krsna conscious spiritual master, there is not chance of understanding Krsna."
And since taking shelter of Srila Prabhupada means to follow his instructions to spread Krishna consciousness in whatever way we can, it is perfectly reasonable to me why Prahlada M. Dasa chose to summarize these verses the way he did.
If we are going to become any better than the fools who have hijacked a large portion of Srila Prabhupada's movement, I suggest we all practice tuning into the essence of what we are saying, and we will usually find we are more in harmony and agreement than our nitpicking tendency allows us to see.
Hare Krishna
y.s.
MarkPosted by Bhakta Ray @ 12/21/2005 03:25 AM PST
Dear Yadudanda Pada dasa
Of course I 'get' your point, because , as they say, what's not to get? There are bad people in ISKCON. There are imposters and frauds. That point has been made for decades. I never contested that. I contest your analysis of the problem, not your statement of it. It isn't about material motivations. Everybody who comes to bhakti is tainted with material motivations. Druva Maharaja had big-time material motivations. That is NOT the issue. The issue is insincerity.
A guru who does not maintain the basic sadhana that Prabhupada required has betrayed the fact that he has no intention of practicing bhakti in the first place. It's not because he has material desires. It's because he has NO desire to become Krsna conscious.
He is just an unscrupulous cheater.
What I want to know is why arent' the non-cheating members of ISKCON raising a hue and cry? Why is this being allowed to go on? I guess we're going to have to wait for another rash of scandals. Yawn.
All one has to do it listen carefully to what they say and it becomes obvious they're not even fixed in the philosophy that Srila Prabhupada so clearly preached.Posted by shiva das @ 12/20/2005 09:55 PM PST
This is for Prahlada
When you wrote this:"The spreading of Krsna consciousness cannot happen by any mundane effort or by persons implicated in mundane life"
You may have been thinking of this verse from the CC.kali-kalera dharma -- krsna-nama-sankirtana
krsna-sakti vina nahe tara pravartana
The fundamental religious system in the Age of Kali is the chanting of the holy name of Krsna. Unless empowered by Krsna, one cannot propagate the sankirtana movement.
Srila Prabhupada gave no purport for that verse but in the next verse he goes into an explanation, and in another verse he also gives a purport to the above verse.taha pravartaila tumi, -- ei ta 'pramana'
krsna-sakti dhara tumi, -- ithe nahi ana
You have spread the sankirtana movement of Krsna consciousness. Therefore it is evident that You have been empowered by Lord Krsna. There is no question about it.
PURPORT
Sri Madhvacarya has brought our attention to this quotation from the Narayana-samhita:
dvapariyair janair visnuh pancaratrais tu kevalaih
kalau tu nama-matrena pujyate bhagavan harih
"In the Dvapara-yuga one could satisfy Krsna or Visnu only by worshiping opulently according to the pancaratriki system, but in the Age of Kali one can satisfy and worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead Hari simply by chanting His holy name." Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura explains that unless one is directly empowered by the causeless mercy of Krsna, one cannot become the spiritual master of the entire world (jagad-guru). One cannot become an acarya simply by mental speculation. The true acarya presents Krsna to everyone by preaching the holy name of the Lord throughout the world. Thus the conditioned souls, purified by chanting the holy name, are liberated from the blazing fire of material existence. In this way, spiritual benefit grows increasingly full, like the waxing moon in the sky. The true acarya, the spiritual master of the entire world, must be considered an incarnation of Krsna's mercy. Indeed, he is personally embracing Krsna. He is therefore the spiritual master of all the varnas (brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra) and all the asramas (brahmacarya, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa). Since he is understood to be the most advanced devotee, he is called paramahamsa-thakura. Thakura is a title of honor offered to the paramahamsa. Therefore one who acts as an acarya, directly presenting Lord Krsna by spreading His name and fame, is also to be called paramahamsa-thakura.
That verse is not talking about people who are materially implicated being unable to help spread Krishna consciousness, it's really a specific teaching about the empowerment of a devotee as an acarya.
The other purport is here:kona prakare paron yadi ekatra karite
iha dekhi' sannyasi-gana habe inhara bhakte
If by some means I can assemble all the sannyasis together, they will certainly become His devotees after seeing His personal characteristics.
PURPORT
If one saw the personal characteristics and activities of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, one would certainly be convinced that He was the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One can ascertain this by following in the footsteps of the sastric injunctions. This sincere study and appreciation of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is also applicable to His authorized devotees, and it is clearly stated in the Caitanya-caritamrta (Antya-lila 7.11):
kali-kalera dharma -- krsna-nama-sankirtana
krsna-sakti vina nahe tara pravartana
In this Age of Kali, real religious propaganda should induce people to chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra. This is possible for someone who is especially empowered by Krsna. No one can do this without being especially favored by Krsna. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura comments in this regard in his Anubhasya, wherein he quotes a verse from the Narayana-samhita:
dvapariyair janair visnuh pancaratrais tu kevalaih
kalau tu nama-matrena pujyate bhagavan harih
"In Dvapara-yuga, devotees of Lord Visnu and Krsna rendered devotional service according to the principles of Pancaratra. In this Age of Kali, the Supreme Personality of Godhead is worshiped simply by the chanting of His holy names." Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura then comments, "Without being empowered by the direct potency of Lord Krsna to fulfill His desire and without being specifically favored by the Lord, no human being can become the spiritual master of the whole world. He certainly cannot succeed by mental concoction, which is not meant for devotees or religious people. Only an empowered personality can distribute the holy name of the Lord and enjoin all fallen souls to worship Krsna. By distributing the holy name of the Lord, he cleanses the hearts of the most fallen people; therefore he extinguishes the blazing fire of the material world. Not only that, he broadcasts the shining brightness of Krsna's effulgence throughout the world. Such an acarya, or spiritual master, should be considered nondifferent from Krsna -- that is, he should be considered the incarnation of Lord Krsna's potency. Such a personality is krsnalingita-vigraha -- that is, he is always embraced by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna. Such a person is above the considerations of the varnasrama institution. He is the guru, or spiritual master, for the entire world, a devotee on the topmost platform, the maha-bhagavata stage, and a paramahamsa-thakura, a spiritual form only fit to be addressed as paramahamsa or thakura."
Nonetheless, there are many people who are just like owls and never open their eyes to see the sunshine. These owlish personalities, who are inferior even to the Mayavadi sannyasis, cannot see the brilliance of Krsna's favor upon the maha-bhagavata devotee. They are prepared to criticize the person engaged in distributing the holy name all over the world and following in the footsteps of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who wanted Krsna consciousness preached in every town and city.Posted by Mark @ 12/20/2005 04:09 PM PST
Dear Devotees,
After reading Yadunanada Pada Dasa's latest post I had a couple of ideas how I might be able to glorify the skillful and excellent points he has made.
First consider that Srila Prabhupada was correct about Demons within Iskcon.
Then, rightly consider the characteristics of one who plays the role of Demon within Krishna's lila.
Next look at this statement by Prahlada M. Dasa regarding Yadunanda Pada's reference to a portion of Srila Prabhupada’s purport on the S.B. v. 7.5.30 to 32 which reads “The spreading of Krsna consciousness cannot happen by any mundane effort or by persons implicated in mundane life.”
Prahlada M. Dasa writes:
You want to draw attention to the fact that these purports may not be construed to further any ‘Chosen People Syndrome’ that we may have. And, by the ‘Chosen People Syndrome’ you mean those who have some demeaning complex towards others and a superiority complex of themselves. I am unable to see how these purports can be construed in this way.
Yadunanda Pada used that portion of the purport, to illustrate an entirely different point. He was making the point that one may not be implicated in mundane life if they are engaged in mundane activities in the spirit of yukta- vairagya, and such folk are to some degree helping to further the movement. I will quote the second half of his point.
"What it actually means is that if the effort itself of trying to spread the mission is selfish and mundane in intention, disregarding others in any manner whatsoever, and/or clouded over by personal goals for mundane comfort or status, then that effort is in itself material and will not bring any significant spiritual result."
In other words, there are some who APPEAR to the gullible and naive to be the Big Big promoters of the Lord's sankirtana movement, but they are actually hindering it by their gross selfishness. (Demon's in the movement.)
Next, Prahlada M. Dasa while extending his reasoning for his arguement that was concocted from thin air, he shows that however well-intentioned he may be, he does not accept that "here lie Demons", by saying....
"The first two purports rightly leave the reader feeling humbled. Srila Prabhupada’s very graphic description exposes our complicity with material nature. Barring the nitya-siddhas and the Lord’s incarnations, this complicity is a default condition of every living being born in this world – the demigods included. There is therefore no scope of anyone coming away feeling smug in any way."
If he was referring to the good hearted and innocent he is correct. However his broad language indicates a state of Denial.
The point Yadunanda Pada Dasa and others have been trying to make is that Demonic Personalities are present, and they aren't reading that purport and allowing themselves to realize their complicity with material nature, and thus be humbled. They are skimming through looking for any statements that their twisted mind might use to suit their goals of dominion and aggrandizement.
If we are to get on with a scenario where there is exclusively good association to be found within Iskcon, for our sake and for those innocent people who may be attracted by the Lord's mercy, we first must deal promptly and convincingly with those Demonic Personalities who were not turned completely by association with Srila Prabhupada's Vapuh.
I do not suggest anything unmerciful here, but simply admission to their presence, admission to the gravity of this truth, and a proportionate response according to the actual behaviors they are currently displaying. Which could mean anything from simple demotion from a managerial position to some good honest sudra work on a farm, to imprisonment at a max security penitentary, as long as they have access to Srila Prabhupada's books and a prison ministry outreach.
Then we can leave this dirty but necessary work behind and move on to more refined and uplifting mundane activities that lend to a more stable platform to practice pure bhakti from.
Love to hear some input from all the wise pundits out there.
Hare Krishna
y.s.
MarkPosted by shiva das @ 12/20/2005 03:53 PM PST
Yadunandana Pada:
I'm sorry if my pointing out the wrong use of quotation marks has offended you. It wasn't my intention. It's just that it is a common phenonmena for devotees to make up or repeat things which either serves their purpose or not under the rubric of "Prabhupda said". Already on this blog I have had to point out to several devotees mistaken ideologies they teach backed up by erroneous attributions to Srila Prabhupada. For instance someone claimed Srila Prabhupada said that we shouldn't read the books of his guru or the previous acaryas, another told us that Prabhupada said that ISKCON is supposed to last for 10,000 years, and so on. I provided citations from Srila Prabhupada which showed those things to be false. Those devotees had built up entire philosophical arguments based on and centered around erroneous information on what they thought Srila Prabhupada had said.
So when I saw this from you attributed to Srila Prabhupada my spidey senses started to tingle:
"The spreading of Krsna consciousness cannot happen by any mundane effort or by persons implicated in mundane life"
That doesn't seem to me to be something which is true, so I searched for that quote and couldn't find it. The fact is that people implicated in mundane life can help in the spread of Krishna consciousness, it happens on a dialy basis for thousands of people. How many people are living essentially a mundane existence yet aid one of the missions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu by either giving money, time and labor, etc? Many. Also many people preach to their friends and co-workers either by giving them books, or webpage info, or invitations to temples etc, even though they may be otherwise engaged in the pursuit of wealth and pleasure as the main aspect of their lifestyle. This is a common scenario amongst the Indian community and ex Iskcon members as well.
So those verses and purports from 7.5.30-32 of the Bhagavatam were not really (IMO) stating what Prahlada M. Dasa paraphrased them as saying. What those purports and verses did say was that people who are too strongly attached to material life or who use religious teachings to gain something materialisitic, are not able to reap the benefits of the teachings of the Sri Krishna and the Bhagavata.Posted by Yadunanda Pada Dasa @ 12/20/2005 02:38 PM PST
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Although this should not have been an issue, I do realize that it is for some. I am responding at the request of a friend to clarify a point: The quotation mentioned by Siva Prabhu was taken and quoted direct from Prahlad Maharaja's article exactly as he had written it (which probably should have been in single quotes once cppied and pasted into my article), which still does in fact exemplify the basic notion of the Bhagavatam verses Prabhu discussed. I guess we can say we were quoting Prahlad Prabhu’s paraphrasing—although arguably grammatically incorrect on my part. Nevertheless, it always saddens me that even the obvious and common sense have to be researched for exact verbatim reference and grammatical positioning, as if though we are all liars on trial and no one is to be trusted—this too is part of the OCD culture we are responsible for breading. When Srila Prabhupada asks us to reference scripture, he does not mean every minute detail, but the general directions of our course. Nevertheless, this is another huge topic for another time.
However, and more importantly, I feel that both Prabhlad and Bhakta Ray have missed the point of my article completely (150%+), and that is probably my fault for my lack of writing and communications skills.
On the other hand, it seems to me that both Shiva and Rebecca did get my drift and understand the peril before us clearly.
My point in brief again, with details: I was standing directly to the left and slightly in back of Srila Prabhupada fanning him with a chamara, less then three feet away when he made the comment that drives me on this issue (at the end of my article). I was watching him very carefully. He had just arrived from the airport and was sitting on his vayasasana. He behaved in a very disappointed manner; I thought he was going to cry. He was about to start playing kartals before the lecture. He abruptly dropped his hands with kartals unto his lap, looked around the very packed room a few times and his eyes moistened as he looked in my direction, he began to speak but his voice faltered. He cleared his throat aloud into the microphone, (although I found out later we had not yet begun recording to my dismay). “Just because you have nice dhoti and saree does not mean you are devotee.” He then put his head down, closed his eyes, and I could hear birds beyond the closed temple room doors; you could have heard a pin drop. Everyone in the room appeared like deer in front of headlights, their eyes wide open as in shock, almost saying, ‘He’s got me’. After a long five seconds which seemed like an eternity, Srila Prabhupada, looked up again, scanned the room once more, everyone’s eyes went low, and he began to play kartals and sing “Jaya Radha Madhava”. It was a very sobering and sober moment.
My realizations and memories may only be my insanity, but if anyone was paying attention to the exponential logic of the verse in BG 7.3, which I discussed as primary subject matter in my article, we might get on the same page.
There are many, many wonderful people, well wishers aspiring devotees, and devotees in this movement. Yet, at the end of the day, I must warn all, regardless of any righteous stance or CPS, that what one sees is not what is and that we are in fact surrounded by impostors on many, many levels, above and below. We can see by their actions and inactions. What one does with this knowledge is one’s own prerogative. Regardless, those who believe that simply anyone who follows the principles and/or attends the morning program is a devotee, or sincerely trying to be a devotee, needs to reassess and carefully choose their association for the sake of their own spiritual and material lifes. Don’t be naďve or gullible; Srila Prabhupada said that there were demons coming to this movement, if anyone has chosen to not believe his statements on this, may indeed fall into this category of naďve.
Good luck
YNPDPosted by Gadadhar Dasa @ 12/19/2005 10:41 AM PST
Initiation is beginning not an end. It is not a license to claim as "Chosen".
Read more at:
http://www.prabhupadavani.org/Bhagavatam/text/248.html
If we are not at peace then we can only create trouble for ourselves and others.
By devotional service we must change day by day. If not, then we are not devotional service or quality is not good.Posted by Bhakta Ray @ 12/19/2005 03:53 AM PST
I'm sorry but the materia/spiritual distinction is not as helpful in understanding ISKCON administrative corruption as this article claims.
Rebecca says it's the motivation that determines whether an activity is spiritual. But what is the difference between a motive and a desire? And even if we act on a so-called spiritual desire we may still not do what is bona fide. We might do the wrong thing for the right reason.
But I disagree that it is simply the desire/motive that determines the spiritual nature of an activity. Devotional service is spiritual, taking prasadam is spiritual, the Holy Name is spiritual. Their nature does not depend on the desire of the person who engages in them. Krsna is prophylactic. He is not contaminated by our approach, our engagement. Rather we are purified by that contact.
A prostitute could chant , engage in devotional service because she is being paid. The benefit is still there. Demons have been liberated by their contact with Krsna and/or his devotees.
Bhakti is a natural process, when nature is understood as consitutional, metaphysical. As the jiva becomes purified and its coverings of maya fall away, it naturally takes to the service of the Lord.
Where ISKCON authorities are corrupt, explotatitve, it's not because of material desire as much as the fact that they are posing as devotees. They make a show of following the process of bhaki yoga, when they are doing nothing of the kind. I know for a fact Rameswara was not chanting his rounds, which seems like the least of his problems. I learned this from a devotee who served him personally. On the contrary, it was the greatest problem. Prabhupada devised the sadhana he required so scientifically that it becomes excruciating to follow it for one's own material gratification. In fact it is impossible. At some point the sadhana MUST slip before the corruption sets in.
Can a demon chant 16 rounds and follow the four regs and a temple program for their own evil purposes?
It would be like a vampire sun-bathing. It should be excruciating.
So its not so much material vs spiritual, but bogus vs sincere.
Any sanyassi, GBC member who has set out to exploit ISKCON devotees for his own selfish purposes, is simply a fraud, a fake , a pseudo-devotee and needs to be exposed as quickly as possible. It shouldn't be that terribly difficult to prove that he is not following the sadhana or the bhakti process in general. After all were any of the notorious 'eleven' following the sadhana? Is anybody naive enough to believe Bahvananda was running after boys AND chanting 16 rounds?Posted by shiva das @ 12/18/2005 03:00 PM PST
Bhakta Ray you wrote:
This statement seems to be the core topic: "a good deal of people who are supposedly engaged in devotional service are actually just engaging in more or less material activity, since their motives are not truly spiritual". As such I don't understand what "Chosen People Syndrome" has to do with it exactly. Until we have removed all offenses we will have material desires. Obviously these desires are going to skew the result of chanting, especially if the chanter doesn't make an effort to detach himself. But this the story for almost every neophyte, every person who begins and continues to chant.
I may be wrong but I think Rebecca was writing about a more specific situation i.e people who misuse religion or a religious organization because they feel they are entitled due to being "chosen" or "the elect". As an example someone in Iskcon who has a position of power and uses it not for the benefit of society or the devotees or non devotees, but instead uses that position of power to satisfy material desires. He or she can rationalize their behavior (if they actually have faith and are not total frauds) by seeing themselves as being deserving of exploiting their position and others because they are who they are i.e saved, chosen, the elect etc.
There is a difference between devotees having material desires and them abusing positions of authority based on material desires. There is a chasm of difference between engaging in bhakti for material reward and using bhakti to harm or exploit others. The person with material desires as a motivation for bhakti is commonplace, education in the philosophy of the Bhagavata reduces those material desires eventually to nil. The bhakta learns that all material enjoyment is pre-ordained and gives up hankering for that which will come naturally of it's own accord under the will and direction of the plan of the Lord. While the person who abuses a position of authority even though he or she is educated in the teachings of the Bhagavata is of a different character. The former's motives and actions are based on ignorance, the latter's motives and actions are based on pride and greed, leading to a lack of an ethical and moral compass in their decision making process.Posted by shiva das @ 12/18/2005 02:34 PM PST
Yadunandana Pada you wrote:
Srila Prabhupada elaborates in the purports to SB 7.5.30-32 that, “The spreading of Krsna consciousness cannot happen by any mundane effort or by persons implicated in mundane life”.
I did not see that quote in the vedabase nor by searching google. If that is not a direct quote then you shouldn't put quotation marks around it. You then go on to extrapolate the meaning of that quote. If that quote is made up then your extraploation is unseemly. I'm not saying your point is meaningless, but if that quote was not a quote but your own interpretation of things said in those verses you mention, then claiming to make commentary on a fictitious quote is unseemly.
I do agree with the overal point of your presentation though, nice job. The "chosen people syndrome" is also an actual teaching found within the Calvinist Christian faith and some others to various degrees. The Calvinists believe that life is preordained and that some people are chosen by God to be saved and others are not. Once chosen it is permanent and if not chosen then nothing can help you. The result of this philosophy has been a driving force of the Christian Dominionist movement. It's essentially a licence to kill. You can do anything sinful because you are chosen, you can hurt and kill non chosen people because they are destined to hell and damnation anyways. This is why the Christian "fundamentalist" leadership and crowd supports the republican agenda in America and abroad. Calvinist thought has had a major impact on the "fundamentalist" community. They see nothing wrong in harming the non saved though either willful neglect or direct violence. They are saved and the rest are damned, period. That's why many people scratch their heads and wonder how the "Christian" community in America can support the republican agenda to reduce social services for the poor, increased police state governence, and wanton violence abroad. They have a theological view that justifies those attitudes. It's the "chosen people syndrome" taken to the extreme.
A similar thing happens in most any religios organization. It happens in Iskcon as well. The idea that I am God's elect and therefore I am above common decency is unfortunately an all too common "syndrome" in Iskcon from my experience. That kind of thinking can lead to the worst kinds of willful neglect and violence. In fact throughout my life the very worst people in terms of personal behavior and mistreatment of others whom I have ever interacted with, have been devotees in positions of power in Iskcon.Posted by Bhakta Ray @ 12/17/2005 05:25 AM PST
This statement seems to be the core topic:
"a good deal of people who are supposedly engaged in devotional service are actually just engaging in more or less material activity, since their motives are not truly spiritual"
As such I don't understand what "Chosen People Syndrome" has to do with it exactly. Until we have removed all offenses we will have material desires. Obviously these desires are going to skew the result of chanting, especially if the chanter doesn't make an effort to detach himself. But this the story for almost every neophyte, every person who begins and continues to chant.
If, on the other hand, what is being said in the article is that many 'devotees' chant for a material purpose, to leverage it for good karma, that is a very serious accusation, if not for the simple reason that it is a great offenese to the Holy Name.
namno balad yasya hi papa-buddhir
na vidyate tasya yamair hi suddhih
"To think that the Hare Krsna mantra can counteract all sinful reactions and one may therefore go on with his sinful activities and at the same time chant the Hare Krsna mantra to neutralize them is the greatest offense at the lotus feet of Hari-nama."
If this is what the author means, then I think he needs to provide some indisputable evidence for such a claim , otherwise he runs the risk of serious Vaisnava aparatha.Posted by Bhakta Ray @ 12/16/2005 01:37 AM PST
Luckily Prahlada Prabhu clarified in his commentary what "The Chosen People Syndrome" meant. It wasn't clear in the article. I chant 16 rounds and follow the regs but I struggle constantly with the idea that I am now situated at a higher platform than karmis or other 'fringy' devotees. This attitude seems like a boar routing the garden of devotional service. It is the most dangerous form of Maya in my view because it looks like a spiritual insight. Imagining others feel superior to me can also be a subtler version of the same thing.
But even after I've checked these misconceptions in myself I have still experienced some problem. I will find devotees avoiding me, not even allowing eye contact, or saying Hari Bol. What is suprising is that these are often initiated devotees. It is said in the Nectar of Instruction that a devotee avoids the association of non-devotees. Is this the same as feeling superior? How does anybody become a devotee if devotees avoid his association? How does this apply to devotees who are less advanced and how do we know our level of advancement? I am intrigued on what basis these impersonal devotees make their judgments of others and of themselves for that matter.Posted by Bhaktin Rebecca @ 12/15/2005 10:03 PM PST
I think, Prahlada Maharaj Prabhu, that you did not quite get what Yadunandana pada Prabhu was saying. When you state this:
"There is much labelling going on. People are claiming to be devotees by professing to belong to certain religious circles; and we are also accepting them as such. Invariably, despite all the best titles and appellations, many among these are unable to live up to any recognised standards."
you are in fact hitting on Yadunandana pada Prabhu's point, in a way. What I got from this article is that, despite what many people seem to think, a good deal of people who are supposedly engaged in devotional service are actually just engaging in more or less material activity, since their motives are not truly spiritual. It is the motive that makes the difference between material and spiritual activity, now isn't it? Otherwise, why do we bother to explain it that way over and over and over again at endless Sunday feasts?
The article was declaring that a devotee is much more rare than most people seem to think, and we should all seriously reconsider where we think we are at and what the actual nature of our activities is. It is a call to stop deluding ourselves by imagining our selves and others to be greater than we/they are. I took it as a call for honesty.
It seemed very clear to me that Yadunandana pada Prabhu was saying that if we are acting in those certain ways he mentioned, then we are really not the devotees we imagined ourselves to be, and are really not so different from those we like to label "karmis" or "non-devotees."
I applaud this straight-forward and honest look at reality. Nearly everyone could benefit from a close examination of their true motives, now couldn't they? But how many would like to do that? It takes a brave and honest person to face the reality of the difference between their ideals and where and what they really are. But if we truly want to make progress in spiritual life, then we must do this, for if we want to get from point A to point B, we really need to know where point A is, don't we?
The Acharyas have provided the map and the route, but we need to know where on that map we are, if we are to get any where. It seems to me that Yadunandana pada Prabhu's article is asking us to take a good long and honest look at just that: where, in fact, we are on the map.
At least, that's how I understood it.
y/s Bhaktin RebeccaPosted by Prahlada M dasa @ 12/15/2005 07:54 PM PST
Prabhu, I thank you for you kind comments to my article. However, I would like to address your caution to Srila Prabhupada’s purports on the Srimad-Bhagavatam verses 7.5.30 to 32. You want to draw attention to the fact that these purports may not be construed to further any ‘Chosen People Syndrome’ that we may have. And, by the ‘Chosen People Syndrome’ you mean those who have some demeaning complex towards others and a superiority complex of themselves. I am unable to see how these purports can be construed in this way.
The first two purports rightly leave the reader feeling humbled. Srila Prabhupada’s very graphic description exposes our complicity with material nature. Barring the nitya-siddhas and the Lord’s incarnations, this complicity is a default condition of every living being born in this world – the demigods included. There is therefore no scope of anyone coming away feeling smug in any way. And, the purport to the third verse gives us the solution to our this predicament. Again, the purport does not lend any credence for the reader to adopt any arrogant ideas. The very first line of the purport refers to anartha-apagamah, the disappearance of unwanted things. Unless the removal of unwanted things from the heart encourages the ‘Chosen People Syndrome’, I cannot see what else remains. In fact, the solution is so impossible and contrary for such purposes that Prahlada’s father throws him off his lap for saying it. Hiranyakasipu would have only been happy if Prahlada words had the import you suggest; he would have been jubilant if his son expressed an idea in pursuance of domination and condescension of others.
Prabhu, if I may be so bold: it is our complicity in material nature that encourages us, drives us, to take be dvesti, envious of and hateful to others – the one quality that would be cause for concern with regard to the ‘Chosen People Syndrome’. The more materially conscious a person is, the more selfish he is; not less. No one is seen to acquire money for the benefit of others. The psychology of the materialist is better understood from Lord Krsna’s description in the 16th chapter of the Bhagavad-gita. Krsna consciousness, in fact, enables a person to overcome his selfish disposition; and to act out of duty. He thinks, Lord Krsna will provide for my needs. And if he is unable to think in this way, it will not be the fault of Krsna consciousness, rather it will be a sign that Krsna consciousness is wanting.
It is a fact that the purport to the third verse does not give credit to mundane education as being able to give the needed Krsna consciousness. Yet it is such consciousness only that will enable a person to be compassionate and considerate - all that you admire and seek in those who do not already have such a disposition.
I would like to suggest where the difficulty actually lies. There is much labelling going on. People are claiming to be devotees by professing to belong to certain religious circles; and we are also accepting them as such. Invariably, despite all the best titles and appellations, many among these are unable to live up to any recognised standards. Having ourselves been involved in one way or another, we find ourselves having to make apologies. We are forced to forever check, to explain, to comment on any statement that even remotely hints to an item on our apologies list. And it is a list. Hindus, for example, are forever embarrassed by any mainstream media mention of the caste system. The understanding of it is completely fallacious. There is nothing to defend. It is an ignorant understanding - plain and simple – of the mainstream media as well as the Hindus themselves. So it is with the many tenets of Krsna consciousness.
Sir, I put it to you: the need is not for apologies for the injunctions of the sastras or for the statements of the acaryas but for us to better understand what it is they are saying, and to propagate that to everyone else.
I remain a servant to the body of Vaisnavas,
Prahlada M. dasa
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