"Recently, there has been many negative things being said about my Nama Guru and dearmost wellwisher- His Holiness Bhakti Tirtha Swami. Maharaja, as most of you know, left his body rather recently after an intense and extremely painful fight with melanoma skin cancer." Read full article.
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NEXT ARTICLE:
"Time Is Running Out: My Final Article" by Hari dasa
"Mentality of a Sheltered Disciple" by Rocana dasa
"Hari Hurrah" by Rocana dasa
"Sentiment, Not Siddhanta" by Rocana dasa
"The Letter He Didn’t Ask Me To Write"

Replies: 74 Comments

Posted by Nitya Siddha dasa @ 11/15/2005 05:30 PM PST

Hare Krishna Mahavegavati Dasi Prabhu,All Glories to Srila Prabhupada,Please accept my humble obeisances.
Thankyou for sharing your experiences with us all here.I for one do not doubt your veracity and I applaud you for having the courage to speak the truth.Your revalations about BT(OK agreed let's leave out the S 'cause he does'nt deserve it !)certainly give us all that are lovers of the truth a much more balanced picture of the actual nature and activities of this egotistical self centred, over glorified coakroach.There are those that wish to defend the indefensible and whitewash the decades of deceipt,lies and offences that these agents of Kali-yuga have burdened us all with.Thier vision is stifled by thier own self serving ego's and arrogance.Thier can be no reforms within Iskcon unless the truth is outed and those that are sincere and honest followers of Vedanta without selfish motivation can free society from the corrupt regime that goes under the name of the GBC.The same GBC that oversaw and almost condoned the abuse and molestation of innocent children,the same same GBC that confiscated and confiscates the street collections of hundreds of sincere but niave followers,the same GBC that has plundered the hearts and minds as well as the purses of thousands of innocent souls for thier own self aggrandisement.How far they are away from what Srila Prabhupada actually wanted us to be,and how foolish and childish are those that recommend Diksa initiation from them or condone thier posistions.Who but a child would worship the picture of any of these cockroaches?I thankyou for exposing this anathema to us all and may the Lord protect you for doing so.

Your Servant,
Nitya Siddha dasa

Posted by Mahavegavati Dasi @ 11/15/2005 12:31 PM PST

Dear Prabhus,

Hare Krsna. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. PAMFO I hope all is well.

Most of us who have given so much of our life (some of us still doing so) in service to Hari, Guru and Vaisnava, in reality do not want to say anything that will disturb anyone's faith in their guru; yet, due to the nature of ISKCON (in terms of how Srila Prabhupada had set it up), and how the GBC and many of the ISKCON gurus have taken Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON mission off course due to their dishonest spiritual and material dealings, some "oldtime" ISKCON devotees feel impelled (even forced by dint of circumstance) to come forth with various "unpalatable" truths - my using the word Srila Prabhupada uses in His BG 10.4 purport concerning satyam. (I'm going to begin from "Asammoha".)

"Asammoha, freedom from doubt and delusion, can be achieved when one is not hesitant and when he understands the transcendental philosophy. Slowly but surely he becomes free from bewilderment. Nothing should be accepted blindly; everything should be accepted with care and with caution. Ksama, forgiveness, should be practiced, and one should excuse the minor offenses of others. Satyam, truthfulness, means that facts should be presented as they are for the benefit of others. Facts should not be misrepresented. According to social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth should be spoken in a straight and forward way, so that others will understand actually what the facts are. If a man is a thief and if people are warned that he is a thief, that is truth. Although sometimes the truth is unpalatable, one should not refrain from speaking it. Truthfulness demands that the facts be presented as they are for the benefit of others. That is the definition of truth."

I was contacted by three writers on this conversation and agreed that I would write something since I directly served under BT for so many years, and was with him and my Godsister, Hladini prabhu, when they came together to Nigeria. BT instructed me to travel with them, and despite my begging numerous times that I be allowed to leave their company when the situation between them became so bizarre, and continue with my previous service, BT insisted I stay.

It started with BT coming to me telling me how "That woman is trying to pull me down..." (I'm making it very simple here. It was a VERY INSANE situation, and I begged BT many times to allow me to remove myself from their association and allow me to continue my services being rendered prior to their coming. BT refused, so - being trained to always follow the instructions of my direct ISKCON authorities - I stayed on in this HELLISH "drama" (and it was a TRIP!, a VERY CRAZY one at that!!!).

Hladini prabhu, who had not said anything to me concerning the situation, began to confide in me. Thus, BOTH BT and Hladini prabhu were separately coming to me telling me their side of the story, blaming the other person for what was going on. (This also included both of them showing me the letters the other person was writing to them, neither of them knowing the other person was coming and confiding in me.) Hladini prabhu ended up dead as a result of these exchanges, and BT tried to have me done in as well because of what I knew.

Besides this particular situation between BT and Hladini prabhu which became SO INSANE, serving under BT was HELLISH because of BT's dishonesty and diabolical intrigues. What I wrote in those VNN articles was only the tip of the iceberg. I am still extremely traumatised by it, along with the other (physical) results from my stay.

I knew that even with the little bit I had written, most likely no one would believe me, and I knew I would get condemned and have to sustain repercussion for writing the little I did. But I wrote it for the sake of truth, my feeling it would help other devotees in various ways. (No need to explain all of that here. Besides other things, obviously when someone is being so much glorified as a pure devotee, and some devotee(s) is (are) seeing something off kilter with that guru, the devotee will consider that his/her thinking is wrong as opposed to the fact that it is in actuality the guru who is in deviation.)

If anyone with any intelligence was to ask WHY I would take such a risk to write such a thing publically, they could only come up with two logical answers: Either it was true, (and thus I have the courage of conviction), or that I was crazy and in my insanity, I was believing what I was writing to be true. Other than these two reasons, WHY else would I write such a thing for the devotees to not believe and then condemn me, even to the point of threats and violence? (BT for years was threatening me to keep quiet about all the things I knew he had done. He was especially concerned that I keep the lip buttoned about what happened with Hladini prabhu.)

There is a lot more to be said. I was THERE! BT was sending BOTH Hladini and I to Liberia, when he KNEW there was a HORRIFIC coup going on, (neither Hladini nor I knowing about the coup). BT was ALWAYS reading the newspapers, his ALWAYS checking on the current events ALL OVER THE WORLD, ESPECIALLY about Africa!

There are more details to how and why Hladini prabhu was killed. Why Krsna made me come out alive from this to be the "knower," I wish Krsna had NOT arranged this, but He did; so what can be done? I lost my devotee friends over it because of BT lying to them about me in his paranoia that I MIGHT speak something to someone, and
there were other repercussions. But the truth is the truth, and at some point - BT's continued actions and their repercussions pushing me into it - I opened my mouth, and sometimes still do. Srila Prabhupada quoted one verse sach bale tomare lutha jutha jagat mohaye, "When one tells lies, everyone is enchanted, but when one tells the truth, s/he is beaten with sticks."

I KNOW that by my writing what I am here, (even without going into the further "gory" details of Hladini prabhu's death and why, as well as so many of the other horrific things I KNOW FOR A FACT that BT did), I am subjecting myself to danger because there are many passionately fanatical devotees out there NOT willing to objectively hear and weigh out things when it comes to someone in an ISKCON position, especially in a position of being their ISKCON guru.

I've been called a "snake" and so many other things for speaking up with the truth concerning BT and the GBC in general, and I've been physically attacked by devotees for my words. BT tried to have me killed in Africa ONLY because of his (own) PARANOIA that I MIGHT say something to someone about what I knew, but was unsuccessful in these attempts. When that failed, he did a most successful character assassination despite my MANY MANY years of SUBMISSIVE and FAITHFUL service under him (along with the funds I supplied from a settlement for the ISKCON Africa preaching mission), and my tolerating all the - for lack of a better word - hell that BT put me through with his lies, deceit, politics, dishonesty, and... - my doing so only because I knew how Srila Prabhupada wanted devotees to preach and spread His mission in Africa.

Although some other devotees are afraid to speak up with the truth about things they know directly about BT - many of them having served under BT and experiencing BT's duplicity and dishonesty (and thuggery) - I am saying the little (little in comparison to what happened), that I am.

Because Hari Das is a disciple of my Godbrother, I do not want to say more. For some disciples of my Godbrothers, it is faith in their guru - often enough that guru not being possessed of the character and qualities a genuine guru is possessed of - that is continuing to keep them engaged in service to Hari and Vaisnava. Many of these disciples are very sincere and believe their gurus to be bona fide, so can they be faulted? Ultimately it's Krsna Who is helping us to see as we do, based on varying factors.

The real blame belongs on those GBC and "gurus" who have usurped Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON with their "I and mine" consciousness, taking what does NOT belong to them and making certain people THINK they "own" a particular slice of the (ISKCON) pie.

If Srila Prabhupada's position as ISKCON Founder-Acarya was being properly acknowledged, and these gurus had not contributed to and demeaned Srila Prabhupada and His position, we would not be having to engage in such discussions concerning the subtle and gross deviations of such persons.

This fallen servant,

Mahavegavati Dasi
Hare Krsna

Posted by Nitya Siddha dasa @ 11/08/2005 02:25 PM PST

Hare Krishna Prabhus,Vijay,you are quite right about Demigods,Yogis and other beings in the universe being able to contact us in different ways if they wish.We learn from Shastra that the Demigods did indeed visit the earth thousands of years ago,during the time of Krishna's Lila and before.It is said that the demigods used to visit the earth at that time as a result of the performance of Yagna and that they could be seen by common poeple.Nowadays though, according to the vedas the demigods no longer physically manifest themselves before common poeple because there is no Yagna(fire sacrifice)being performed.Although you could argue that the Yagna of the yuga,namely the chanting of the Holy Names or Sankirtan is going on,therefore there is some Yagna being performed in the present day.Certainly though, I have not heard of anyone seeing Demigods physically manifest before us these days, although given we can be aware of thier presence in other ways.I do not doubt that based on Shastric evidence that there are millions of demigods of different varieties throughout the universe,such as Siddhas,Charanas,Ghandarvas,Apsaras,etc,as well as a whole host of subtle beings from the earthly and nether regions.Also has anyone had an communication from Demigods,Yogis and other beings,I would be interested to hear it,that would perhaps be another debate.I am no authority on the significance and interpretation of dreams and I would not like to speculate in this area,which is why I only stick to Guru,Sadha and Shastra when posting on these subjects.I think my central argument was that I thought it was unlikely that BTS had any control over his destiny after death therefore how could he say that he would be able to visit anyone after he left this world?If anyone else has got any other theories I would be interested to hear them,I have an open mind on the subject.

Your Servant,
Nitya Siddha dasa

Posted by Vijay @ 11/08/2005 02:48 AM PST

Just to add even demigods who are subtle and other lower enetities can communicate with us in many differnt ways, even yogis can do it telepathicaly in or out the body, the ancestors in pitru-loka occasionally are said to communicate in some way with their decendents stop shrada and worship.

I think either ghost or liberated seems quite narrow considering the possibilities offered by stories in ramayana mahabharata etc.

Posted by Leslie Howard @ 11/07/2005 07:54 AM PST

Regarding the ghost debate, I don't see why those here are so sure that the only common way for a person who has left their body to communicate through dreams or otherwise with those on this earth plane is if they were a ghost. There are many instances of people being contacted by deceased loved ones who were not ghosts. I think with the vedic knowledge that is passed down to us some make presumptions based upon it that things are very black and white, that either you are a ghost, totally liberated, or forced to immediatly take another body. Why can't there be an intermittant time where the soul processes some things before reentering a body? My sense of the creation beyond what we generally can understand in this material life is that there is so much more to it, it is so variagated, there are unlimited possiblities, I think it is a silly material practice to act like we can really understand these things based on a few statements of Vedic guidance. Really people are filling in the blanks in between with their presumptions.

I personally find it a strange point of debate whether or not BTS can appear in someone's dream and if so that that makes him a ghost or totally liberated. Dreams are a personal thing, and I've had plenty myself where I felt very directly guided by spiritual entities that weren't ghosts or necessarily in any other particular catagory of liberation. I have dreamed of Prabhupada and BTS even, and so has my husband, and we felt real contact in that. As a matter of fact I believe that people in bodies can visit one another in dreams. Sometimes it is symbolic, but sometimes not. I've recieved messages that a friend needs help or helped a friend myself through the dreaming process. There is really a lot to these things and I don't think it is wise to make a lot of generalizations about such things based on a few statements.

Posted by Nitya Siddha dasa @ 11/05/2005 06:48 AM PST

For the benefit of Hari-dasa who has become something of a "Loose Cannon"on these blogs,I would just like to clarify something about interpreting Dreams.
Many devotees including myself have had dreams of Srila Prabhupada and other Devotees as well as other poeple in our lives both living and no longer physically with us.Although I believe it is transcendental to have a dream about Prabhupada,Krishna or any other devotee,I would not say that the appearance of such personalities in dreams can be attributed to Ghostly activity.Prabhupada once said that you may see gold and then a mountain in waking consciousness then when you dream you may see a golden mountain.This is how dreams occur,they are a mixture of images and experiences that we have had in our present and current lives and not necessarily based on reality.I do not believe that they are ghostly apparitions.It is however possible for a real Ghost to manifest in a dream and this is a seperate matter.As you would'nt call Srila Prabhupada a ghost or BTS for that matter.A ghost would leave no doubt in the mind of it's victim as to his actual identity.
For most of us,let's say 99.9% of the population our destiny after death is not in our hands.That I think we can all agree is determined by higher authorities in the universe.So how could BTS have any control over his destination in the after life?would he be somehow able to come back to visit his godbrother's after death?I said that it is possible to do this if one becomes a ghost perhaps.But one only becomes a ghost in special circumstances,i.e when one commits suicide or dies an untimely death,such as being killed in an accident or being murdered.As far as I can ascertain this did not happen to BTS,as he died from natural causes.The reader can draw his own conclusions as to wether it was actually possible for BTS to visit anyone after death,or was it just mere whimsical fantasy?
There is however another way that the 0.01%can revisit after death and also decide his own destiny after leaving the body.In the vedas we learn that there have been many personalities that have achieved a state of liberation and total detachment from this material world by yoga practice.Grandfather Bhismadeva did it on the battlefield of Kurukshetra,Kardama muni did it,and so on.This very advanced stage of consciosness is rarely achieved although obviously not impossible.As it is stated in the Bhagavad-Gita "Sa Mahatma Sudhurlabaha""Such a great soul is very rare".In this Kali yuga,even rarer,although again not entirely impossible.As I am not a very advanced devotee myself I am not in a posistion to judge who is liberated and who is not.But based on my own common sense and logic as well as what I have observed,I would say that it is highly unlikely that BTS or any one else that I have met(except Srila Prabhupada) were on this platform.Some may disagree,but until I see evidence otherwise,I remained unconvinced.

Your Servant,

Nitya Siddha dasa

Posted by hari dasa @ 11/03/2005 03:07 AM PST

quote from radha krsna

"A couple of notes on a couple of points posted previously here.

1 - Nitya Siddha Prabhu correctly states on October 18th that according to Bhagavad-gita the soul passes into a new body after death. The soul doesn’t remain in “another” plane just to continue “communicating” with others for the fun of it -- as Bhakti-Tirtha Swami proposes. Ghosts are the only beings that I can think of that would do that. Was BTS planning to become a ghost after death?"

-ask the many senior devotees that have had dreams of Prabhupada after he left- was he a ghost? KC is a mystical process and the unusual is probable as spiritual energy is unlimited

"2 - The same day Shiva das Prabhu made the point that according to Gaudiya Siddhanta a guru may indeed have to suffer on account of his preaching (specifically if accepting more disciples than what he is qualified to accept). I agree completly with this point. Nonetheless, Bhakti-Tirtha Swami’s point is different. He attempts to convince us that he has to suffer in order to help others. He suffers to help, not suffers while trying to help. And that is a deviation from Vaisnava doctrine."

-BTS was compassionate, something you need to learn prabhu instead of trying to defame someone you are clearly envious of

"The “communications” and the compulsory suffering are a couple of instances of BTS’s theological deviations and pitiful contradictions. The question here is, where was the GBC’s Sastric Advisory Committe all along to stop BTS from constantly putting his foot in his mouth?"

-maybe think of your own deviations prabhu such as blaspheming the devotees who have dedicated their lives to spreading the holy name? I think that you should act like a Prabhupada disciple and show a good example yourself instead of making so many offenses

YS
Radha Krsna dasa

Posted by Radha Krsna dasa @ 11/02/2005 09:55 PM PST

A couple of notes on a couple of points posted previously here.

1 - Nitya Siddha Prabhu correctly states on October 18th that according to Bhagavad-gita the soul passes into a new body after death. The soul doesn’t remain in “another” plane just to continue “communicating” with others for the fun of it -- as Bhakti-Tirtha Swami proposes. Ghosts are the only beings that I can think of that would do that. Was BTS planning to become a ghost after death?

2 - The same day Shiva das Prabhu made the point that according to Gaudiya Siddhanta a guru may indeed have to suffer on account of his preaching (specifically if accepting more disciples than what he is qualified to accept). I agree completly with this point. Nonetheless, Bhakti-Tirtha Swami’s point is different. He attempts to convince us that he has to suffer in order to help others. He suffers to help, not suffers while trying to help. And that is a deviation from Vaisnava doctrine.

The “communications” and the compulsory suffering are a couple of instances of BTS’s theological deviations and pitiful contradictions. The question here is, where was the GBC’s Sastric Advisory Committe all along to stop BTS from constantly putting his foot in his mouth?

YS
Radha Krsna dasa

Posted by hari dasa @ 11/01/2005 03:39 AM PST

lets get one thing perfectly straight pandu, you are being very stupid and offensive and you will not stop, i have been trying to help you but you just dont listen.

Once i said to BTS "thank you for your mercy", he replied "i have none, it is all Prabhupadas mercy"

as soon as the gbc dropped the names ending in Pada, he agreed and we called him Gurudeva or Guru Maharaja (most of us did anyways) and he emphasised to those who were more guru groupies to chant Prabhupadas pranama first before his.

you do not know much about my guru so keep quiet and stop complaining so much. as far as the use of the BTG article i posted it because it was already posted on the btswami website so others could share it with others. Maybe read the article as it represents what most think about BTS not the vast minority of whiners on this site

grow up pandu

Posted by Pandu das @ 10/28/2005 07:12 AM PST

Hari das says,

there are 2 distinct differences between the 2 opinions, one(theirs) is offensive and mine is just defending my guru which is my duty.

Hari das,
You can look at it that way if you like. As I see it, the difference is that one side is interested in unbiased truth while the other is interested in eulogies.

You claim that we are offensive, but my view is that the root of offensiveness in this whole issue is that Bhakti-Tirtha falsely presented himself as a pure devotee, and his disciples continue to fuel that offense.

In Srila Prabhupada's purport to Caitanya Caritamrita, Madhya Lila 10.182, he says,

“The Lord herein confirms that if one is overestimated, glorification is just another form of blasphemy. In this way He protests this so-called offensive statement.”

Whereas Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu protested against his glorification, and whereas Maharaj Prithu (S.B. 4.15.22-26) did the same, Bhakti Tirtha obviously appreciated and encouraged his own glorification. What is the point of worshipping a "guru" who enjoys it?

Also, your posting of that article here is spam and a potential copyright issue. Next time link to the article.

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/28/2005 04:12 AM PST

this is satyarajas article on bts, at least he knows vaisnava etiquette and gives aknowledgement and respect where it is due. read it with an open mind and not an offensive mentality and you might just see that he not the demon some proclaim him to be...

Rain of Mercy: The Exemplary Life of Bhakti Tirtha Swami

By Satyaraja Dasa

A determined, charismatic spiritual leader, his example of dedication to the mission of the spiritual master can inspire us all.

Bhakti Tirtha Swami (1950-2005), one of my dearest friends and mentors, was a person of singular determination, a courageous and bold preacher of Krsna consciousness. He had a passion for Srila Prabhupada’s mission that took him around the world, particularly to Eastern Europe, behind the Iron Curtain, where he surpassed all others in distributing his spiritual master’s books, often risking his own life, and to Africa, where kings and queens acknowledged him as a chief and recognized him as a spiritual leader. He was esteemed in Prabhupada’s own institution as well. In ISKCON he was a respected sannyasi, a monk in the renounced order of life, and a guru, with disciples of his own. He was the world’s first Afro-American Vaisnava spiritual master, and he published many books, too, explaining how to apply Krsna consciousness in the modern world. His books use the language of conflict resolution and depth psychology, as well as that of the New Age. They foster spiritual advancement through principle-centered leadership techniques and inner realizations. In addition, he had a tremendous ability to touch people on a deep level, to change lives, as thousands of Godbrothers, friends, and disciples can attest to.

The various names by which Bhakti Tirtha Swami is known in ISKCON tell us much about who he was. And I often enjoyed discussing this with him. For example, Srila Prabhupada gave him the name Ghanasyama Dasa, which means “servant of the blackish cloud.” The name Ghanasyama refers to Krsna, who is as beautiful as a dark rain cloud, with a complexion to match. So I used to playfully say to Bhakti Tirtha Swami that in naming him “Ghanasyama” Prabhupada had acknowledged his beauty as a charismatic black man, an Afro-American with marked exquisiteness both materially and spiritually. Upon hearing this, of course, he would characteristically laugh, or shine his contagious smile, expressing humility as he waved away with his hand the very notion of being like Krsna or of possessing some form of visible beauty, whether mundane or otherworldly.

I also pointed out to him that “Bhakti Tirtha,” the name he was given at his sannyasa ceremony, was highly appropriate as well. He is like the true tirtha, or “holy place,” I would say, in that such places are like bridges to the spiritual world. The word tirtha is conceptually linked to tirthankara, or “bridge-builder,” the idea being that a true holy place is like a bridge to the spiritual realm, and that teachers who help people achieve that realm are like tirthas in their own right. He, especially, was like a bridge, using bhakti, or devotion, to bring people to Krsna. Hence, “Bhakti Tirtha.” Along related lines, his style of conveying Krsna consciousness emphasized the importance of “bridge-building,” so that outsiders would have easy access to the philosophy. Due to his highly developed sense of compassion, he intensely labored to bring people to the lotus feet of Krsna. For a brief period in ISKCON’s history, in fact, Bhakti Tirtha Swami was known as Srila Krsnapada, which, again, indicates his favored position at Lord Krsna’s lotus feet and his ever-broadening capacity to give others shelter there. Of course, he was also a “swami,” which indicates one who is able to control his senses. As we shall see, his life as a devotee of Krsna reveals these qualities in abundance.

John Favors God, and God Favors Him

Bhakti Tirtha Swami was born John Edwin Favors on February 25, 1950, the youngest of four sisters and two brothers. He was marked by a speech impediment that he thought he might never conquer. An additional obstacle was that he was born into a poor family in a Cleveland ghetto. But his parents taught him well, giving him confidence, religion, and a sense of giving. Although he had few clothes, for example, his mother would often donate them to neighboring boys and girls, hoping to teach her children the importance of charity. She also volunteered long hours at local churches, giving her family a sense of sacrifice.

In fact, John was a child evangelist, and while his speech defect made giving sermons difficult, he spoke best when speaking on religious topics. Somehow, his stuttering lessened when he shared the words of scripture, and in later years it subsided, with only the barest hint of it when he spoke. As a youth he regularly appeared on local television stations to preach the Christian Gospel. “Because I had seen so much poverty,” he said, “I was interested in doing something for myself and others.” He excelled as a student while at Cleveland’s East Technical High School and spent a good portion of his spare time doing welfare work.

He received a scholarship to Hawken Academy, a distinguished preparatory school in Cleveland. While there he became enamored of Dr. Martin Luther King's civil rights movement, and he eventually became a local leader for the cause. Despite his involvement in political concerns, or perhaps because of it, he became an exemplary student. In 1968 his exceptional grades earned him a scholarship to Princeton University, where he majored in psychology and Afro-American studies. At Princeton his political interests grew as he joined the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, the Black Panther Party, and other activist groups. He was elected student body president in 1971 and chairman of the Third World Coalition in 1972.

Melvin R. McCray, one of his colleagues at Princeton, remembers him as an extraordinary person. McCray wrote in the Princeton Alumni Weekly:

I saw John Favors for the first time at the introductory meeting of the Association of Black Collegians (ABC) in the fall of 1970. As ABC’s president, he delivered an impassioned speech on the role of blacks at Princeton. Though only 5' 9", he was an imposing figure in his leopard-print dashiki and matching fez-like hat, with walking stick, pipe, bushy afro, and full beard. At that time he called himself Toshombe Abdul, and he spoke with the force and dynamism of Malcolm X.
While at Princeton and soon thereafter John began serving as assistant coordinator for penal programs in the State of New Jersey in the Public Defender’s office. He was also a director in several drug abuse clinics and a special consultant for Educational Testing Services in the United States. Through it all he maintained a healthy interest in “mystic Christianity,” as he called it, and earnestly pursued his spiritual calling. This is not to say that while at college he didn’t indulge in the usual activities of the day. It was, after all, the turbulent '60s, with its sex, drugs, and rock 'n' roll. Still, while reminiscing he said, “I tried my best in those days to forget God. But despite my best efforts, I inevitably found myself continually glorifying Him.”

He explored the teachings of Sri Chinmoy, Swami Satchidananda, and a little-known mentor whom he never named. This latter mentor directed him to the saint who would become his spiritual master, His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. At first, however, he was reluctant to pursue Prabhupada and his teachings. “The first time I saw a Hare Krsna,” he said, “was up in Harvard Square at a football game. It was very cold, and a group of them were standing on the corner chanting. I looked at them and thought, ‘This is the epitome of absurdity.’ I presumed they were rich white students just out looking for some different kind of drug or alternate experience. But when I passed by again two hours later, they were still on the corner chanting in the cold. I knew then there was something extraordinary about them.”

Finally, a girlfriend gave him an album of Srila Prabhupada singing, called "Krishna Meditation." As he listened intently to the guru whom his mentor had suggested he would recognize as his eternal spiritual teacher, he began to remember something he had long forgotten: He was a soul caught in a material body, and he wasn’t black or white but, rather, a spiritual being. He began to weep uncontrollably.

Soon he was visiting the Brooklyn Hare Krsna temple, and soon after that he renounced the little he had to pursue Krsna consciousness with complete conviction. He moved into the temple, where the leading devotees, seeing his intellectual acumen and natural teaching ability, sent him to Dallas, Texas, to assist in the then fledgling Gurukula, a school for ISKCON children. Upon arriving there, however, he met Satsvarupa Dasa Goswami, and the course of his life changed. He was attracted to Satsvarupa Maharaja’s simple and straightforward presentation of Krsna consciousness and accepted the senior devotee as a sort of instructing spiritual master. At the time, Satsvarupa was starting a mobile sankirtana party, a group of devotees who would travel together distributing Srila Prabhupada’s books. John wanted in.

A Beautiful Blackish Cloud Arises

It quickly became evident that John Favors was no ordinary devotee. For example, he chanted at least thirty-two rounds of Hare Krsna on his beads daily, rather than the standard sixteen. To accomplish this, he would rise earlier than most devotees and would usually go to sleep late into the night. He also kept a diary in which he wrote a letter to Srila Prabhupada every day. In these letters, he would reveal his weaknesses, pray to overcome them, and express his determination to become pure. His eating was sparse, usually fruits and nuts, sometimes a few carrots, bananas, and a little butter.

Most amazingly, he outdid everyone else on the team he traveled with, distributing Prabhupada’s books with the skill of an experienced book salesman. Soon, Hridayananda Maharaja took over the party. He trained the young men, particularly Mahabuddhi Dasa and John, to sell books to university libraries. The party became known in ISKCON as “The Library Party,” underlining its newly chosen venue for selling books. John was highly successful in bringing books to the collegiate intelligentsia.

As weeks turned into months, he was initiated. Satsvarupa Maharaja recommended him highly to Srila Prabhupada, who wrote back a letter in February, 1973, giving him the name Ghanasyama Dasa. As Prabhupada’s “blackish cloud,” he lovingly created a distinct brand of torrential rain--a downpour of spiritual literature.

Throughout 1974 and 1975, Srila Prabhupada wrote numerous letters to Satsvarupa Maharaja and Ramesvara Maharaja, under whom Ghanasyama served. Prabhupada praised his activities and marveled at his success in selling books. Prabhupada also wrote Ghanasyama several personal letters during this period. In one, he wrote, “You are rendering first quality service to Krsna by your preaching success. Be blessed and continue your efforts and Krsna will recognize you very quickly.”

Teaming up with Kalakantha Dasa, Ghanasyama next went to Europe, specifically England, to carry on the book distribution of the Library Party. However, success there was minimal. As Kalakantha later reflected, “The Brits, at that time, seemed reluctant because of the India connection. It was still a sore spot for them.” After a while, the two ISKCON compatriots split up, with Ghanasyama going to Eastern Europe. There he distributed Prabhupada’s books in communist countries, where in most cases religion was banned. He lived his Krsna conscious life in secret, and in austere conditions. In Russia he lived on public trains, going from one to another throughout the night, chanting his rounds in public bathrooms. Despite all contrary odds, he continued to distribute with great success, remaining the top Library Party salesman. His determination and positive results brought great pleasure to Srila Prabhupada.

Rain of Mercy

When Prabhupada was ill, preparing to depart from this world in the summer and fall of 1977, reports of Ghanasyama’s exploits were among the few things that brought him solace. Numerous letters from Tamal Krsna Goswami, Prabhupada’s secretary at the time, reported Prabhupada’s unparalleled joy when hearing of Ghanasyama’s activities. Naturally, then, when Prabhupada made his final trip to the West, to England, Ghanasyama received special mercy in Prabhupada’s presence. He called the young book distributor into his room and, asking him to sit at his side, embraced him. With tears in his eyes, Prabhupada told him, “Your life is perfect.”

But his “perfection” did not make him complacent. After Prabhupada left this world, Ghanasyama continued to distribute books like a man possessed, and to serve his guru’s mission with full enthusiasm. In due course, in New Vrindavan, West Virginia, he took sannyasa from Kirtanananda Swami, receiving the name Bhakti Tirtha Swami. This was in 1979. Soon thereafter he started The Committee for Urban Spiritual Development. The aim of this project was close to his heart, since, as an inner-city child himself, he could relate to the concerns of the downtrodden and knew how to bring them to Krsna consciousness. Inner-city preaching, combined with welfare work and prasadam distribution, usually through opening restaurants, became a mainstay of his endeavors. His restaurant in Washington, D.C., was particularly successful.

It was around this time that he had a dream wherein Srila Prabhupada requested him to “open the door.” In the dream, he continued to tend to other services, leaving Prabhupada’s request aside. Finally, after Prabhupada uttered the request for a second and then a third time, Bhakti Tirtha opened the door, and a multitude of African people came running through. From this dream, he deduced that Srila Prabhupada wanted him to go to Africa, and so, without any particular inclination toward that part of the world and in the midst of a successful project in Washington, he left, suddenly, and with little planning.

In the end, his African venture was immensely successful. His accomplishments in Africa, and elsewhere, are too many and too vast to describe in detail here. In Africa, he opened and oversaw two farm communities and more than twenty temples across six countries. In addition, he maintained two public schools and worked at a grassroots level to enhance the spiritual lives of people throughout the continent, particularly in West Africa.

Among his most prominent accomplishments in America is perhaps his founding, in 1988, of the Institute for Applied Spiritual Technology (IFAST), dedicated to presenting Krsna consciousness to New Age spiritual seekers around the world. One of the aims of the Institute was to establish self-sufficient farm communities, and to that end he rejuvenated ISKCON's Gita-nagari project in Port Royal, Pennsylvania. With this project, the Swami found an attentive audience among professionals as well--high-powered doctors, lawyers, and others saw truth in his message.

A few highlights of his illustrious career:

Soon after taking sannyasa, he went to Jagannatha Puri and, although Westerners are not allowed in the temple, managed to get in to see the beautiful Jagannatha deities.
He met Mohammed Ali in 1981 and became one of his spiritual advisors.
He became a member of ISKCON's governing body in 1982 and an initiating spiritual master in 1985.
He went to Africa, where Pusta Krsna Dasa, Brahmananda Dasa, and others were preaching, and opened it up in an unprecedented way. He stayed there, on and off, for sixteen years, meeting and working with the country’s most distinguished dignitaries, celebrities, and leaders, including Nobel Peace Prize laureate Nelson Mandela.
In 1990 he was honored by being given the position of a high chief in Warri, Nigeria, in recognition of his outstanding work in Africa. He was widely accepted as an authentic religious leader throughout the African subcontinent.
He has sixteen books in print and three more ready for press. His international book team consists of translators working on the following languaged: German, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Macedonian, Croatian, Russian, Hebrew, Slovenian, Balinese, and Italian. Many of the books have already been printed in these languages, and a few are still in the process of being translated.
As he became something of a well-known international spiritual leader, with numerous college lectures, TV and radio talk shows, and inter-religious conferences lined up for years to come, the ravages of time manifested in an unexpected way, changing his plans forever.
Die Before You Die

Bhakti Tirtha Swami was diagnosed with a stage-four melanoma on his left foot. Ten years before, he had been told of a suspicious lump there. But it was benign, and removal would mean losing the use of his foot entirely. In a later attempt to remove it, doctors found that it was malignant. A diagnosis of diabetes limited the medical options. At first, he tried natural cures, which showed some promise but ultimately helped little.

In August 2004, his specialist advised him of the need for chemotherapy, immediate amputation of the foot, and the removal of affected lymph nodes. He conceded, but when only minimal success was reported, he prepared to leave this world. Bhakti Tirtha Swami saw in this an opportunity: “Krishna is allowing me to develop more purity, more potency to stage a change; he is allowing me to help others as well as myself to focus in a deeper way; we have to be ready to go the extra mile for the devotees.”

Actually, the illness did not come as a surprise to him. He had long prayed to take on the karmic debts of others, to suffer so that others might be released from suffering. He had prayed:

"Dear Lord,
Whatever we need to be better servants for Srila Prabhupada’s mission, let it happen or come to us. Whatever we need to have taken away to become pure in Srila Prabhupada’s service, let it be taken away.
He wrote that he was willing to die for the misdeeds of others, and that in dying he would somehow bring his friends and Godbrothers closer together. This is in fact what happened. According to Bhakti Caru Swami, another ISKCON leader and a friend who had been in close contact with him at the end, “Maharaja [Bhakti Tirtha Swami] emphasized that the sufferings of so many devotees had become too much for him to bear. He was praying very intensely to Srila Prabhupada that he wanted to become purified, become a better disciple, and help those who are struggling, at any cost.”

Radhanatha Swami, an ISKCON leader and one Bhakti Tirtha Swami's dearest friends, was constantly by his side for the last couple of months as his main caregiver. Others also stayed with Bhakti Tirtha Swami, including disciples who were physicians. Friends and well-wishers poured in, showing support, offering prayers, seeking blessings. Devotees from around the world resolved longstanding differences in his name.

As the last few weeks emerged, his consciousness was more and more absorbed in Krsna and he went into solitary meditation, allowing only those who spoke about Krsna to be with him. By the time of his departure his absorption was total. He listened only to Krsna's Vrndavana pastimes and viewed only a beautiful painting of Krsna and one of Prabhupada, in front of his bed. As he passed away, he was clasping a salagrama deity, and another one was placed on his head. He was sprayed with sacred Radha-kunda water, and a tulasi leaf was placed on his tongue. Truly, he left this world as he had lived: as an exemplary devotee.

When his rich, productive life was reaching its close, he and I began signing our letters to each other with the Sanskrit words aham tvam prinami: “I love you.” This gesture signified our deep appreciation for each other’s work. He had many times expressed his high regard for my books, and he knew well how much I relished his. But there was more. He and I felt like kindred spirits in yet another way. We both took it as our service to stretch the envelope, as it were, to show devotees, through word and deed, that there are many approaches to Krsna consciousness, that there is more than one way to serve the Lord. Still further, the new way of signing our letters showed the kind of person he was, always ready to express his love for other devotees. I love you, too, Bhakti Tirtha Swami, and you will always be in my heart.

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/28/2005 03:48 AM PST

quote from bhaktin rebecca

"So it comes down to which side you have more faith in for whatever reason, good or bad. It is no longer a question of evidence, if such evidence is no longer available. You cannot "prove" such an issue either way. You can only go on your opinion due to your chosen faith. "

response- good points rebbeca, your letter was nice, thank you. I have sent another article in which hopefully should conclude my side of all this. They want to change my opinion and i want to change theirs. but there are 2 distinct differences between the 2 opinions, one(theirs) is offensive and mine is just defending my guru which is my duty.

The new BTG is out, anyone who is interested in another angle on bts can see the article and its pictures for free on www.btswami.com

Posted by Ragaputra dasa @ 10/25/2005 08:48 AM PST

He convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

Posted by Nitya Siddha dasa @ 10/25/2005 07:09 AM PST

Hari dasa,what more evidence do you want?Are Mahavegavati's articles on VNN not enough?When considering wether someone is telling the truth or not one has to use a process of logical deduction and try to weigh up the facts by analyizing the pro's and the con's of what the person has to gain from either lying or telling the truth.When looking at Mahavegavati's articles on VNN one can draw 2 conclusions.1.That she is telling the truth and 2.That she is lying.If she is lying what does she have to gain?and why would she lie?I can see no good reason why she would have a grudge against BTS other than the fact that what she has said is a factual account of what happened to her.It does not make any sense that she would lie about such things since she had nothing to gain from lying.In effect if she was lying she would have put her own spiritual life on the line by committing a Vaishnava aparada,and why would she do that for no good reason?Therefore by the process of logical deduction one can conclude that it is more likely that she is telling the truth.Also there are other witness statements(some of them on this blog)about BTS's improprieties.This is called in law corraborative evidence and although there may be no actual physical evidence hypothetically speaking,still because there are other witness's corrobarating the original witness statement,then this adds weight to a powerful testamomy and makes it more likely that the original witness statement is true.Also the other witness testamonies are coming from independant scources,making it less likely that there was any conspiricy between the witness's.Looking at all the facts and by logical deduction one can only conclude that it is most likely that Mahavegavati is telling the truth.I think that you are in a minority not being able to accept that your whiter than white unrealistic conception of your so called "Guru" could be wrong.If you go through life with these delusions in your mind you will find it very difficult to progress and succeed in your goals to become a more advanced devotee.These misconceptions are certainly an impediment to you and they may also be referred to as Anartha's or material attachments,unwanted things.Maya means illusion or "That which is not"certainly Maya is very powerful and can take many forms including deluding the minds of neophyte devotees.These anarthas in the form of delusions must be removed from the path of a devotee before he can make further advancement in spiritual life.One should not become hypnotised by a personality in Iskcon just because he is wearing silk saffron robes and is carrying a stick covered in saffron cloth with a few fancy titles after his name.Look beyond the viel Hari-dasa,look and listen and you will learn,you need to do this so that you can become enlightened this will increase your intelligence and Knowledge and make you a better devotee instead of just being a fool.

Your servant,
Nitya Siddha dasa (UK)

Posted by Bhaktin Rebecca @ 10/25/2005 05:39 AM PST

Dear Hari das,

Does the GBC do all your thinking for you? We are not supposed to abandon our intelligence. What if the GBC chooses to never issue an official statement about something - does it cease to exist? And what if all evidence of an incedent is lost to time? Did the event never occur? It occured, but what you believe about it will be based on hearsay- of one side or the other.

So it comes down to which side you have more faith in for whatever reason, good or bad. It is no longer a question of evidence, if such evidence is no longer available. You cannot "prove" such an issue either way. You can only go on your opinion due to your chosen faith.

Trying to convince people on the basis of the words of the GBC and "senior devotees" when a good part of your audience may not necessarily accept them as authorities is essentially like arguing with a false premise. You defeat yourself before you begin. If you are really interested in convincing your audience here, then you must have some understanding of them and the rules by which they will be convinced. You have one set of rules, but they may follow another. Effective writing demands taking your audience into consideration.

If you like running in circles, then by all means, continue as you are doing. But if your goal is to actually get somewhere with this discussion, then you may want to adjust your approach. It is also helpful to consider while writing what arguements to your statements will be brought up by your opponent. This allows one to be more effective as well.

Just a bit of writing advice, as I am concerned that you must be getting a rather troublesome headache what with your apparent beating your head into a brick wall. Find a more appropriate approach, or give up for real. Don't torture yourself - that is also maya.

y/s Bhaktin Rebecca

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/25/2005 03:53 AM PST

quote from pandu

"Since you knew Bhakti Tirtha so well, maybe you can tell me what he was thinking while rolling out the red carpet for this unrepentant child molester to strut his stuff at my place for worshipping Sri Krishna.

Was it that in spite of his talk, he really just didn’t care about kids or ISKCON’s reputation as a haven for child abuse? Did he think himself so great that by his blessing everything would be alright? What was it? I’ve been waiting for a good answer to this question, but his disciples don’t want to talk about it.
It looked and continues to look to me like his claim to be a bona fide guru is simply a fraud."

response- what have the gbc said about this? i was not there, nor are any details coming from anywhere apart from you, you obviously have strong issues and are angry so how can i trust that your facts are 100% accurate?
what has your guru said about this?

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/25/2005 03:48 AM PST

there is no conclusive evidence from maha vegavatis writings

my proposal is that if you all are so concerned with issues regarding bts and his conduct especially in regards to having vpandit at gita nagari that you communicate with the gbc.

nor do i see direct evidence that BTS fell down sexually with anyone-it is hearsay, provide evidence please before making such accusations.

i am interested only in evidence and so will the gbc be, unless you can provide such then it is just rumours as i have said countless times already.

Posted by Nitya Siddha dasa @ 10/24/2005 10:47 AM PST

I have just read Mahavegavati's VNN articles about BTS's "African adventures"
Firstly it appears to me that Mahavegavati dasi is a totally sincere devotee and an early disciple of Srila Prabhupada,so why should anyone doubt her honesty?Actually I think she has been very brave in revealing these experiences and has opened to the reader what goes in in the real lives of the "Gurus" behind the daily charade in Iskcon temples.
So was BTS "A great exalted devotee"or just an imposter who misused his power and posistion to extort laxmi from his disciples by lying and cheating and then indulged in his sexual fantasies when he felt like it?Is Mahavegavati a Liar,I don't think so.But sadly there have been and continue to be too many cover ups for comfort.And while the followers of these so called "Gurus"are illusioned into thinking they are great exalted devotees or are too afraid to speak the truth we will always be left to investigate the facts for ourselves until it all comes out of the closet.You decide......

Your servant

Nitya Siddha dasa

Posted by Pandu das @ 10/24/2005 08:38 AM PST

Hari das,

Glad you decided to stay. It’s brave of you to venture out of the strictly-censored “BTSwami list.” Personally I don’t care about space ships or aliens, and I've never been to Africa. I didn’t read his books, and I don’t care to. I had no special interest in Bhakti Tirtha until 2005, when his poor choice of friends directly impacted my life and forced me to wake up to some serious questions about him and about ISKCON.

It seems that you would like us believe that all of BTS’ controversial activities were simply preaching tools, which we’re too neophyte or offensive to understand. Was his giving of special honors to Vakresvara Pandit also a preaching tool? It looked to me like a clear message that child abuse is A-OK in ISKCON, at least for anyone with “Swami” friends..

Vakresvara was found by the CPO of having been guilty of several instances of child molestation (“AGGRAVATED SEXUAL ASSAULT” and “INDECENCY WITH A MINOR,” according to the Texas criminal statutes.), and that guilt was confirmed on appeal. (Open Letter to the ISKCON's CPO ) When BTS invited Vakresvara to Gita-nagari, without even discussing the issue with the community, Vakresvara had been officially banned from ISKCON as a stipulated penalty for failure to apologize and pay restitution. In addition, Vakresvara has obviously shown himself as a liar.

...i met BTS in 1996, however, i spent a long time serving him and hearing from him and others about him. I did not take the initiation until 2003 so that is 7 years of observation on both sides.

Since you knew Bhakti Tirtha so well, maybe you can tell me what he was thinking while rolling out the red carpet for this unrepentant child molester to strut his stuff at my place for worshipping Sri Krishna.

Was it that in spite of his talk, he really just didn’t care about kids or ISKCON’s reputation as a haven for child abuse? Did he think himself so great that by his blessing everything would be alright? What was it? I’ve been waiting for a good answer to this question, but his disciples don’t want to talk about it.

It looked and continues to look to me like his claim to be a bona fide guru is simply a fraud.

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/24/2005 02:46 AM PST

how many times do i have to tell you? the book Spiritual warrior 1 was a purely preaching tool, not necesarrily meant for iskconites or gaudiya vaisnavas.
BTS did a large part of his preaching outside of the boundaries of vaisnavism to non devotees and as such he got people to join iskcon.
if you actually read the book in question then you would see that the essence was to help people understand more than lost continents of mu and the like.
50+ people who read this book became his disciples and are in iskcon doing valuable service.
At first many of BTS writings were aimed at non devotees, but later we can see he wrote books for iskcon which were very well received.

In regards to this mataji claiming that BTS was intimatly involved with Hladini dasi- where is your evidence?

Actually, please provide evidence to any of the claims of mahavegavati and any other suspicions you guys may have-so far no evidence has been presented-just simply rumours.

provide evidence then you will be taken seriously, if you cannot then it is speculation on your part. The written word cannot provide truth unless it is based on factual evidence and i have requested this many many times

and regarding this:

"Why did you accept Bhakti Tirtha as your guru in the first place? The process is that first the prosepective disciple is supposed to find as much information as possible about the guru. Then after carefully judging that guru as being fit or unfit, then you are supposed to make the decision to accept or reject."

i first joined iskcon in 91, i met BTS in 1996, however, i spent a long time serving him and hearing from him and others about him. I did not take the initiation until 2003 so that is 7 years of observation on both sides.
Why did i choose him, because i saw how much others trusted him due to the fact that he gave so much time and actually helped others in their spiritual life and i saw how intensly engaged in Prabhupadas service he actually was- he would only sleep like 5 hours and eat once a day. His rounds were there without fail, i know this because i was chanting with him.

Whatever you have heard, get evidence first before accepting as truth. It is a known fact that many are jealous so how are their statements to be taken as truthful?

Posted by Narada das @ 10/23/2005 03:21 PM PST

Don't feel too bad, Hari das. Gopal Krishna Goswami's disciples will soon be out on the front lines with you. The Swami's wife just blogged a preview to her new, tell-all book:

http://writingknight.blogspot.com/2005/10/final-insult-excerpt-from-my.html

Posted by ameyatma das at pamho.net @ 10/23/2005 09:41 AM PST

siddhanta.com states that this Rocana Prabhu is "very, very angry", and he may have expressed anger in other writings, I don't know, I have not seen the website referred to. But, when I read this article I did not perceive great anger, I saw a genuine and serious concern being expressed in a very dignified and intelligent manor. A concern that I also share.

The last time I personally saw BTS was in Alachua, ~ 4-5 yrs ago. He was lead kirtan and danced. He was the same devotee I knew many years ago, Blissfully absorbed in dancing and singing.

I found siddhanta.com's article, and his reference to SB, his example of Lord Brahma to be both respectable and 'right-on'. BTS was a great Vaishnav, yet being a great Vaishnav does not mean, automatically, that he was pure and fully above wrong doing. The GBC Body's duty is to uphold the high standards that Srila Prabhupad set. Those standards extend from personal and community hygiene to the preservation of the teachings SP gave. Once in Mayapur on a morning walk, SP peeked inside a latrine and found it not clean to his standard. SP angrily demanded from Jayatirtha, who happened to have been the closest GBC walking with him, why the latrine was not clean. JT tried to argue that he was not the local GBC man, that it was not his responsibility, SP angrily taught JT - and the whole GBC - that was not the case. All GBC men, SP taught, were responsible for the standards in All of ISKCON, regardless the defect is in 'their' zone or not. It is the duty of each and every GBC man to take action when he sees a defect in any of the standards SP set.

Lets say, for sake of argument, that it was not BTS who wrote the outlandish things that he wrote. Lets say it was one of he many so-called gurus of the
1960's-70's. The preachers of ISKCON would have a field day - we would make a laughing stock of that so-called guru. We would expose such none-sense and would make it a major point in our preaching when confronting his followers. That should be totally indisputable. In LA in the mid 70's this bogi-yogi guru-maharaji had come to Culver City advertising that all those who paid the fee to come see his lecture that night, he would show each and every one the brahma-joyti. So, during his lecture he asked all to close their eyes and place a finger on their eyes and apply pressure until they saw light and colors. The in-rush of blood to the eye ball, causing the sensory nerves to produce a flash of color to the brain, - such was his utter non-sense. SP had commented that this bogus teacher should be SHOT. SP actually commented like this, that he should be shot. Why? Because he was misleading so many with his complete and utter non-sense.

Mother ships from mu is complete and utter non-sense. It has NO PLACE within SP's ISKCON, there is no need of it to try and convince lost souls in this world to take up our philosophy.

The GBC was and remains in complete dereliction of their duty for not having stood up and spoke out against this and similar non-sense.

Ys ameyatma das

Posted by Kaviraj Das @ 10/23/2005 09:17 AM PST

I have read Rocana's article about BTS and his followers and find that Rocana has presented sound and scripturally supported logic and argument. These followers, who have scurried up to the microphone to defend BTS are simply mental masturbators perhaps of the dangerous sort that have NOT studied the works of Swami Srila A.C.Bhaktivedanta. We are now entering the phase of Kaliyuga where false gurus will perhaps attempt to cast aside the tenets of the Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya Sampradaya. Caveat Emptor !

Posted by Krishna-kirti's (HDG) blog @ 10/23/2005 06:31 AM PST

If the Mothership from Mu stays parked in Srila Prabhupada's house, some devotees will have to leave...

Read more here:

http://www.siddhanta.com/2005/10/iskcon_gandhi_a.html

Posted by shiva das @ 10/22/2005 04:14 PM PST

Hari Das you wrote:

"please tell me how it is okay for rocana to do what you have accused me of? his articles in this thread are FULL of personal comments about BTS. We will find when someone starts something like praghosa and rocana have that many revelations will come regarding finger pointers-i have first hand knowledge that both these devotees are not seen as active or favourable to iskcon, nor have they always followed strictly. Maybe they should be honest about where they are at instead of trying to find faults with persons who have more popularity and influence and indeed spiritual potency and sincerity"

That type of debating technique is called a logical fallacy. This is a definition of logical fallacy from http://www.adamsmith.org/logicalfallacies/:

Any trick of logic or language which allows a statement or a claim to be passed off as something it is not, has an admission card to the enclosure reserved for fallacies. Very often it is the case that what appears to be a supporting argument for a particular contention does not support it at all. Sometimes it might be a deduction drawn from evidence which does not sustain it.

Many of the fallacies are committed by people genuinely ignorant of logical reasoning, the nature of evidence, or what counts as relevant material. Others, however, might be committed by persons bent on deception. If there is insufficient force behind the argument and the evidence, fallacies can add enough weight to carry them through.

The most used and most famous logical fallacy is the one you used in the above, it is called:

argumentum ad hominem .

Definition:

The person presenting an argument is attacked instead of the argument itself. This takes many forms. For example, the person's character, nationality or religion may be attacked. Alternatively, it may be pointed out that a person stands to gain from a favourable outcome. Or, finally, a person may be
attacked by association, or by the company he keeps.

There are three major forms of Attacking the Person:

(1) ad hominem (abusive): instead of attacking an assertion, the argument attacks the person who made the assertion.

(2) ad hominem (circumstantial): instead of attacking an assertion the author points to the relationship between the person making the assertion and the person's circumstances.

(3) ad hominem (tu quoque): this form of attack on the person notes that a person does not practise what he preaches.

Then you wrote:

it dissapoints me too because the level of aparadha against my guru has been very high with very serious accusations that for the most part have no foundation apart from gossip sources found on rtvik sites

Have you read any of this?

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET9905/ET24-3941.html

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0002/ET03-5397.html

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0002/ET07-5423.html

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0002/ET08-5432.html

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0002/ET10-5445.html

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0002/ET15-5475.html

Also this is a link to a bunch of articles by the same author as the above, go through them from top to bottom.

http://www.vnn.org/authors/mahavegavati.html

Then you wrote:

maybe your words should also be aimed at those such as rocana, praghosa, radha krsna, pandu and your goodself. For the high level of criticism you are all aiming at BTS shows your very own kanistha mentality, bear that in mind

You don't seem to understand the difference between ordinary devotees who are not taking disciples and promoting themselves as uttama adhikaris, who are not promoting the surrendering of as many people as they can possibly convince to become their willing slaves in the name of "going back to Godhead"; from devotees who do that.

If Rocana, or Praghosa, or myself, or anyone else has a disciple making machine all set up in order to either "make devotees" surrender to the "pure devotee who can take you back to Godhead because of his mystical potency", then by that choice of theirs to present themselves as capable spiritual masters who seek to convince you that you should surrender your life and soul to them, then yes, they should be subjected to the same scrutiny that they subject Bhakti Tirtha or any other supposed bona fide spiritual master who seeks a following of fully surrendered people.

Yes there is and should be a double standard. If someone represents himself as a person who everyone should surrender to, then that person is subject to scrutiny and critical analysis of their personal behavior that ordinary devotees should not be subjected to.

You may not like that, but that's the way they say how it goes.

Then you wrote:

again aim those words at those above mentioned also. i do not see evidence that any of you are at nama bhasa. when blaspheming devotees who have dedicated their lives to the propagation of the holy name/1st offense there is no case of tangible advancement. You all have said some very harsh things about BTS most of which has no foundation so you all have commited this offense-why do you not admit to this, your articles and writings are full of this kind of nonsense and rumours.

Here's the rub my fren, the actual sastric process tells us that we should carefully scrutinize anyone who claims to be a spiritual master in order to see if that person is truly what he claims to be. What has been going on here you characterize as offensive sniping, yet the fact is there has been really nothing but carefully thought out critical analysis of the qualifications of Bhakti Tirtha as being a person capable of "bringing you back to Godhead". Is he what he claimed to be?

Bhakti Tirtha claimed to be a person qualified to direct YOUR LIFE, and the lives of as many people as could gather to surrender to him. He claimed that he was a living channel of service to God. He claimed that by serving him you will be serving God.

Yet you seem to want there to be no critical analysis to see if in fact he warrants that kind of respect. You claim that he chanted 16 rounds, followed 4 regulative principles, was a member in good standing in Iskcon, as proof of his spiritual position. Yet the fact is you don't know if he actually followed those standards and it really doesn't matter anyways. Why? Tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of devotees chant 16 rounds and follow 4 regulative principles. What does that have to do with anything?

Should all of them also be treated like divine spiritual masters capable of taking complete and utter control over peoples lives? Should they all be uncritically accepted as being worthy of our total surrender and total devotion?

Then you wrote:

yes, we all should know and APPLY THIS, but how am i supposed to feel about Prabhupada disciples who are so publicly doing this in regards to my own guru??? should i just accept it-i do not think so somehow!

Why did you accept Bhakti Tirtha as your guru in the first place? The process is that first the prosepective disciple is supposed to find as much information as possible about the guru. Then after carefully judging that guru as being fit or unfit, then you are supposed to make the decision to accept or reject.

Did you go through that process? Did you search out for all the information that you could find about your guru before being initiated? Or did you receive all of your info from his followers and fellow travellers in positions of authority in Iskcon?

So what we are providing now is what should have been provided to any of his prospective disciples while he was still around, and in fact most of these critiques have been around for years. But due to people like you who wish to hide any critical analysis, who wish to impede the sastrically defined process of seeking out knowledge of the character and qualifications of a supposed guru, the result was that many if not most of his prospective disciples were not exposed to these things.

Then you wrote:

this is exactly what rocana, praghosa, radha krsna etc.. are doing to BTS-again throw that at them, after all BTS has left his body, his disciples are feeling the loss and public forums like this one should bear this in mind and control their tongues as mentioned in 1st verse and purport of upadesamrta

Why should people not have all of the information available about someone who claims to be a divine messenger of God? Why do you object to hearing both sides of the story? Again; Rocana, Praghosa, etc, do not have a media and social organization set up solely to convince people to fully surrender their lives over to their autocratic control. Bhakti Tirtha did and does. As do others. If you publicly claim to be a person worthy of being fully surrenderd to in body, mind, and soul, then you put yourself in a position where your qualifications are open to scrutiny. Your spiritual status becomes a public matter when you use an institution which you are a member of to promote yourself as a person worthy of having slave like followers in the name of God.

If Bhakti Tirtha or anyone else wanted to be free from critical analysis due to their assuming the position of Guru in the Gaudiya parampara, then they should work outside of any current Gaudiya organization. If they start their own personal organization where they are not dependent on the sacrifice of others for their ascendency, then their qualifications wouldn't be such a serious matter.

The past acaryas and countless vaisnavas have sacrificed their lives and built the current Gaudiya organizations. Why should someone waltz in and be given Godlike status by the fiat of a handful of individuals who have in some way or another gained positions of influence with those Gaudiya organizations?

If someone in Iskcon claims to be qualified to be accepted as worthy of surrendering to, then they no longer enjoy the anonymity of the common vaisnava. If they want to use the sacrifice of others for the purpose of having disciples serve them, then they have put themselves under public scrutiny by their own choice of claiming God like status.

yes, i think the word demon can definatly apply to those that wish to discredit a guru who is in good standing who has recently left.

What is a guru to you? Being in "good standing" with Iskcon leadership should be the determining factor of a persons spiritual standing?

In fact you have put forward that thesis previously:

From the vantage point of a menial servant I have had chance to study many senior devotees, hear from them and come to conclusions that many may not be able to. I have also had the association of many Prabhupada disciples who "have no position" and they fall into 2 categories:

1) the stalwarts- those who are still working damned hard in ISKCON and overlook the bad while trying to promote the good and working under intense conditions

2) the whiners- those who have so many issues that their sadhana is visibly poor thereby creating a bad example for others. Not only are they constantly criticising their godfamily, they are making matters worse by engaging in politics.

In your dialectical assessment you have defined the vaisnava community into 2 distinct groups. Those that uncomplainingly serve and are devoted to Iskcon i.e the good guys, and everyone else i.e the bad guys.

The bad guys are bad because they do not accept the status quo handed down to them by Iskcon authorities. Forget about details, this is black or white, good or bad. Turn off your mind and float downstream, be a good little stepford wife, keep your eyes on your beadbag and let the leaders run your life and Iskcon. Any other attitude is wrong.

From The Simpsons:

At the agricultural compound, the family harvest lima beans.

Homer: See Marge, our lives are so much better now!

[The Movementarian guy drives past with a megaphone.)

Glen: You two, stop talking and resume the lima bean harvest!

Homer: [sighs with affection] So much better.

-----------------------------------
For the first time, the forbidden barn opens, and a Rolls Royce exits. The Leader's presence is felt!

[The Leader's car blows dust all over Moe and Sideshow Mel.]

Moe: I'm covered in the dust of the leader! He favours me!

Sideshow Mel: I am even dustier! Dustier than thou!

[The Leader's car goes through some sloppy mud and Homer gets covered.]

Moe: [Bitter] Oh, look who the new pet is!

Homer: [Near tears] I've never been so happy!

-----------------------------------
Meanwhile, class is being taught... the Movementarian way.

Mrs. Krabappel: And who can tell me where thunder and lightning come from?...Yes, Bart?

Bart: The Leader, ma'am.

Mrs. Krabappel: Very good, Bart! And who invented Morse Code?

Bart: Oh, I should know this one... the.. the Leader?

Mrs. Krabappel: Ah, correct again!

-----------------------------------
Lisa can't take it anymore. She kicks her desk down, but then contemplates whether or not it's right to rebel -- after all, it could affect her grades. Meanwhile, the younger kids are entertained by Barney the Dinosaur, who apparently is under the Leader's influence, too.

Homer and Marge eat dinner.

Homer: These lima beans are even better than the ones we had for breakfast and lunch! Oh! A lima bean that looks just like the Leader! I'll put it with the others.

-----------------------------------
Groundskeeper Willie starts Homer's deprogramming:

Groundskeeper Willie: Alright, what's so fine and great about your fancy pants leader?

Homer: The Leader knows all and sees all!

Groundskeeper Willie: Ooh.. well that is impressive!

Homer: And he's going to take us to a wonderful new planet!

Groundskeeper Willie: Oh! This Leader, he sounds like a grand fella!

Marge: Willie, I'm not sure we're making any headway here.

Groundskeeper Willie: Would you shut up, woman! He's talking about my leader!

Posted by Nitya Siddha dasa @ 10/22/2005 12:52 PM PST

Hari dasa you have misunderstood the points that I was making in my posting.First of all it is not an offence to point out a mistake in someones execution of devotional service.Providing ones instuction is done in a constructive way for the benefit and education of others then there is no fault in that.I believe that there were a number of issues concerning Bhakti Tirtha swami's status and relationship with his disciples and godbrothers that needed to be dicussed in order to dispel the illusions that have developed in the minds of his disciples about his posistion.Otherwise we would be creating a society full of blind fanatics that are more concerned with personality cult style worship than a mature understanding of vedic Shastras and worship of the Sampradaya Arcarya.No one has committed an offence against BTS,we can all appreciate that he did some good service for Prabhupada and Krishna and we respect him for that.Instead of trying to understand these points your attitude is aggressive and defensive,but why are you angry and what is it you are trying to defend?What is the problem with accepting the truth and dealing with reality instead of believing a delusion?The points that Rocana,Pragosha and Radha Krishna Prabhu's have made in thier articles are entirely valid and presented in an intellectually enlightening manner for the benefit of the reader,so what is the difficulty in accepting that?Your attitude is not in keeping with that of a Vaishnava,you lack humility and the ability to open your mind to a deeper understanding of Spiritual life.As we have seen in the recent Sun Poll it appears that a majority of the Vaishnava community do not agree with you and that it is also widely acknowledged that there have been many mistakes regarding Diksa initiations in Iskcon and most devotees are broad minded enough to accept this truth.It is an offence to critisise a devotee for any past transgressions if (a)It is coming from a younger or junior disciple and (b)If it has no philosophical value and is unhelpful and hurtful or damaging to that individual.That is offensive,because the mentality that it is aimed with is personal and aggressive without regard or sensitivity for anothers feelings.This is an Aparadha.What has been discussed amongst our senior Godbrothers about the transgressions of BTS and others like him has been done without offence and for the benefit of dispelling delusions and revealing the truth.That is not an offence.Srila Prabhupada would sometimes critisise His godbrothers because there were obvious conflicts with his and Iskcon's interests,because of thier many misconceptions and also to protect his disciples from being polluted by them.This was not an offence but calling a spade a spade as Srila Prabhupada would sometimes say.I believe that Rocana Prabhu and others are doing the same with regards to some of Iskcon's present day Hierarchy for the same purpose.
In contrast I would say that your attitude is offensive,you are angry and unsubmissive,both qualities that will destroy you spiritually and as a human being.I do not believe that you can make any advancement in spiritual life with this kind of attitude.Your rantings are both disturbing and disturbed and bordering on the unintelligable.Your public airings of your grievances are making you look a fool amongst the worldwide vaishnava community and I would suggest that you need to do some serious soul searching before going any further with your belligerant blurtings on this forum.They are pointless and make the reader feel very uneasy with you.Take that as a bit of friendly advice.

Your servant,

Nitya Siddha dasa

Posted by loka @ 10/22/2005 05:37 AM PST

i not leave because i angry with shrila krishnapada just i know he is not real guru so i leave and go find real guru. aslo i see shrila krishnapada make many politic so this not is guru.

Posted by loka @ 10/22/2005 05:34 AM PST

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/22/2005 04:09 AM PST

provide evidence when making such a crazy claim please

no crazy claim. our guru sexing harishikesha swami. she was bhaktipada sanyassi mataji in africa. shrila krishnapada before my guru but i leave becuase what i know and go to real guru.

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/22/2005 04:09 AM PST

Posted by loka @ 10/21/2005 08:37 AM PST

only this comment my no waste time any more.

in africa shrila krishnapada's disciple i was. i see his many bad activitys. i sometime after leave. he break sex priciple and worse. he was not real guru by activty.

response- provide evidence when making such a crazy claim please

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/22/2005 04:07 AM PST

first let me respond to nitya siddha dasa:

Nityasiddha-"Once again Hari dasa is displaying his immaturity and offensive mentality and is now resorting to personal comments about a devotees past."

response- "please tell me how it is okay for rocana to do what you have accused me of? his articles in this thread are FULL of personal comments about BTS. We will find when someone starts something like praghosa and rocana have that many revelations will come regarding finger pointers-i have first hand knowledge that both these devotees are not seen as active or favourable to iskcon, nor have they always followed strictly. Maybe they should be honest about where they are at instead of trying to find faults with persons who have more popularity and influence and indeed spiritual potency and sincerity"

NSiddha-"Frankly this disappionts me since his remarks have no philosophical value and are therefore irrelevant."

response- it dissapoints me too because the level of aparadha against my guru has been very high with very serious accusations that for the most part have no foundation apart from gossip sources found on rtvik sites

NSiddha-"What a devotee has done in his past,wether it be in this life or the past life cannot be spoken of by a neophyte devotee who has no qualification to critisize."

response- "maybe your words should also be aimed at those such as rocana, praghosa, radha krsna, pandu and your goodself. For the high level of criticism you are all aiming at BTS shows your very own kanistha mentality, bear that in mind"

Nsiddha-"A neophyte devotee whilst in the delicate early stages of Nama Bhasya and Nama Aparadha should never critisize a senior Godbrother or the spiritual master."

response- again aim those words at those above mentioned also. i do not see evidence that any of you are at nama bhasa. when blaspheming devotees who have dedicated their lives to the propagation of the holy name/1st offense there is no case of tangible advancement. You all have said some very harsh things about BTS most of which has no foundation so you all have commited this offense-why do you not admit to this, your articles and writings are full of this kind of nonsense and rumours.

NISdhha-"This is called the "mad elephant offense"that is while a devotee is trying to carefully cultivate the delicate creeper of devotion he like a mad elephant tramples through the garden and ruins the creeper before it has a chance to grow."

response- yes, we all should know and APPLY THIS, but how am i supposed to feel about Prabhupada disciples who are so publicly doing this in regards to my own guru??? should i just accept it-i do not think so somehow!

Nsiddha-"A devotee may have done so many things in his past and lets be honest we all have,but it is very unsavoury and distasteful for another devotee to attack his Godbrother by throwing his past in his face.

response- this is exactly what rocana, praghosa, radha krsna etc.. are doing to BTS-again throw that at them, after all BTS has left his body, his disciples are feeling the loss and public forums like this one should bear this in mind and control their tongues as mentioned in 1st verse and purport of upadesamrta...

NSiddha-"In this regard Srila Prabhupada once said,that if a devotee critisises another devotee for his past before he became a devotee then he is to be considered a demon."

response- yes, i think the word demon can definatly apply to those that wish to discredit a guru who is in good standing who has recently left.

Nsiddha-"Also Srila Prabhupada often used the expression,"When you look at the moon you dont see the craters"If a devotee is engaged in service to the Supreme Lord even though it may not be perfect he should be given all respect and considered to be saintly.It has also been said that when a devotee visits the temple of the Lord to offer Him sincere worship,he does not see the past sins of his devotee,only that he is coming to offer the Lord his respect and worship and when he claps his hands in front of the Diety all the sins of his past life fly away."

response- okay so maybe the mentioned devotees should bear this sastric evidence in mind while thinking about BTS and others they criticise

Nsiddha-"To Hari-dasa and others like him,please don't let your immaturity be your worst enemy and do not allow this forum to degenerate into a meaningless mud slinging excersise and blindly commit many apharadas.Stick to facts and philosophy,dispell illusions about anything you don't agree with in a constructive and polite manner for the education of other devotees so that we can all learn from it.But don't misuse this website and forum to air your personal grievances,that is not Vaishnava."

response- again tell this to rocana and his friends, they started this and it is highly offensive, i agree with many of your points here and hope that you understand that i am a disciple of BTS and I know him very well. His past doesnt bother me, i knew him since 1996 and my experiences with him were very positive and know many that appreciate what he has done. Those mentioned should keep their mouths shut and focus on their own stagnant KC and maybe try to be of positive input in iskcon by being good examples themselves and participating in iskcon more

Lakshmis piece..



Lakshmi-"Hari dasa, whatever valid points you made up to now in this discussion have been dimmed by your attempt to crab-walk backwards after throwing this cowardly jab."

response- how is it cowardly to present to the audience that those critical of my guru are less than perfect themselves?after all shouldnt the readers know that there may be some motivation to present distorted facts about others in order to hide the real truth about themselves?


Lakshmi-"You keep saying that BTS left his body under very auspicious circumstances, but many others disagree."

response-how is leaving ones body hearing the holy name and holding salagramas and having tulasi and senior devotees such as RNS praying inauspicious? what is there to dissagree about?

lakshmi-" You never respond point for point to their assertions, which only indicates that you have no answers, thus your conclusion is the wrong one."

response-many points made are just plain ridiculous, if you are that concerned paste the points you wish me to specifically reply to and i will do my best to do so. My answer is plain and simple-BTS is my guru and i am his disciple, it is my duty to serve him and i appreciate as do many others the good things he done for iskcon, for those that deny this then i say-look again at his life and achievements carefully and read his later books and then you might have a different impression than the one gained from reading critical postings on websites.

Laksmi-"Who exactly are all these 'senior devotees' who have reviewed BTS's books and concluded they were fine? Please provide names, otherwise your assertion is a puff of smoke."

response- Urmila dd, Ravindra Swarupa, Bhakti Caitanya Swami, Radhanatha Swami, Sacinandana Swami, Bhurijana prabhu, Bhakti Caru Swami. I can send you reviews at some stage if you wish. Maybe if you looked at the books before judging them first you might have a different view. And his books on leadership have been reviewed by leaders in the field such as ken blanchard etc...

Laksmhi-"Please also tell us who all the mysterious 'senior devotees' are who have shared with you the details of Rocana's past. Give us their names, please, and tell us what they allege. Please don't be shy about giving us the details. Over the years, Rocana has often displayed his willingness to publicly acknowledge his mistakes and be honest about his past. You should give him an opportunity to do so now, instead of slinging dung with these nebulous allegations, which you make under the guise of being a 'deferential junior'."

response- over the next while rocana will hear from those that are less than impressed with this website and his treatment of BTS publicly, it is not my position to break confidentiality, but rest assured he is going to hear about it very very soon.

lakshmi-"You also remark that Rocana is happy to now attack BTS because he's not present to defend himself. You should read the Internet archives, prabhu. Rocana has made many statements about BTS in the past along similar lines to the current discussion. BTS, unfortunately, never responded while he was here to do so."

response- maybe BTS had better things to do than correspond with someone who has not done much sacrifice to help iskcon and push prabhupadas movement. He was very busy and used his time wisely in order to help others. Maybe he was disgusted with rocanas attitude and did not see fit to engage in petty debates such as these.

ys
Hari

Rocana
These disciples, represented by Jyotirmaya and Hari dasa, are publicly presenting themselves as trained up, initiated Brahmins. Their exalted diksa guru, Bhakti Tirtha Swami, is in charge of passing on our siddhanta to these individuals. When they open their mouths, we find they are sadly lacking in transcendental knowledge and it’s practical applications, and they are passing on their speculations as truth.

rocana

Posted by Nitya Sidda dasa @ 10/21/2005 04:10 PM PST

Once again Hari dasa is displaying his immaturity and offensive mentality and is now resorting to personal comments about a devotees past.Frankly this disappionts me since his remarks have no philosophical value and are therefore irrelevant.What a devotee has done in his past,wether it be in this life or the past life cannot be spoken of by a neophyte devotee who has no qualification to critisize.A neophyte devotee whilst in the delicate early stages of Nama Bhasya and Nama Aparadha should never critisize a senior Godbrother or the spiritual master.This is called the "mad elephant offense"that is while a devotee is trying to carefully cultivate the delicate creeper of devotion he like a mad elephant tramples through the garden and ruins the creeper before it has a chance to grow.A devotee may have done so many things in his past and lets be honest we all have,but it is very unsavoury and distasteful for another devotee to attack his Godbrother by throwing his past in his face.In this regard Srila Prabhupada once said,that if a devotee critisises another devotee for his past before he became a devotee then he is to be considered a demon.Also Srila Prabhupada often used the expression,"When you look at the moon you dont see the craters"If a devotee is engaged in service to the Supreme Lord even though it may not be perfect he should be given all respect and considered to be saintly.It has also been said that when a devotee visits the temple of the Lord to offer Him sincere worship,he does not see the past sins of his devotee,only that he is coming to offer the Lord his respect and worship and when he claps his hands in front of the Diety all the sins of his past life fly away.To Hari-dasa and others like him,please don't let your immaturity be your worst enemy and do not allow this forum to degenerate into a meaningless mud slinging excersise and blindly commit many apharadas.Stick to facts and philosophy,dispell illusions about anything you don't agree with in a constructive and polite manner for the education of other devotees so that we can all learn from it.But don't misuse this website and forum to air your personal grievances,that is not Vaishnava.

Your Servant,

Nitya Siddha dasa

Posted by Lakshmi @ 10/21/2005 01:11 PM PST

Hari dasa, whatever valid points you made up to now in this discussion have been dimmed by your attempt to crab-walk backwards after throwing this cowardly jab.

You keep saying that BTS left his body under very auspicious circumstances, but many others disagree. You never respond point for point to their assertions, which only indicates that you have no answers, thus your conclusion is the wrong one.

Who exactly are all these 'senior devotees' who have reviewed BTS's books and concluded they were fine? Please provide names, otherwise your assertion is a puff of smoke.

Please also tell us who all the mysterious 'senior devotees' are who have shared with you the details of Rocana's past. Give us their names, please, and tell us what they allege. Please don't be shy about giving us the details. Over the years, Rocana has often displayed his willingness to publicly acknowledge his mistakes and be honest about his past. You should give him an opportunity to do so now, instead of slinging dung with these nebulous allegations, which you make under the guise of being a 'deferential junior'.

You also remark that Rocana is happy to now attack BTS because he's not present to defend himself. You should read the Internet archives, prabhu. Rocana has made many statements about BTS in the past along similar lines to the current discussion. BTS, unfortunately, never responded while he was here to do so.

Posted by loka @ 10/21/2005 08:37 AM PST

only this comment my no waste time any more.

in africa shrila krishnapada's disciple i was. i see his many bad activitys. i sometime after leave. he break sex priciple and worse. he was not real guru by activty.

Posted by Pandu das @ 10/21/2005 05:55 AM PST

Hari das,

If you want to be left out of this discussion, you should've simply said so and that's all. Instead, your continued attacks against Rocana prabhu and others show that you're actually just interested in getting the last word. Rocana and others have the right to respond to you and your latest comments if they so choose, your request to be left out of it notwithstanding. You can't take another swing at people and immediately announce "I'm not playing anymore." That's cheating, or shall I say, "less than Vaishnava."

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/21/2005 03:34 AM PST

in regards to rocana prabhus continued attacks against me and my spiritual master or indeed against anyone who is appreciative of my guru, he wonders why i am not replying.

To be frank, this is not vaisnava behaviour. BTS left his body under very auspicious circumstances and whatever transpired between him and kirtanananda is past tense. Regarding suspicion that he fell down, this is just suspicion based on grievious gossip.

Vaisnavas should respect each other, nor does it behoov junior uninitiated devotees to criticise a senior without just cause or evidence.
Many senior devotees have carefully looked through BTS books including the SW1 and saw no problem with it as it was a preaching tool that made lots of devotees. Judge by the results not the apparent content but seek the essence.

I have spoken to many senior devotees over the past while who assure me that rocana prabhu's past is less rosier than those he criticises. They advise that he be careful when judging others as his conduct now and before is less than vaisnava.

Iskcon does not need polluting with this kind of stuff, nor do i appreciate rocana attacking me so publicly so i humbly request he leave me out of his discussions from now on.

It is easy to argue on the net, not so easy to confront in person. Which is why rocana has no fear criticising BTS now he is no longer physically present to defend himself. Yet when disciples defend BTS rocana does not like that either. He would rather be left undisturbed so he can continue on his blasphemous campaign which is only falling on the ears of the weak, disloyal and offensive.

I beg to be left out of this before he goes to far

hari dasa

Posted by Gadahdar Dasa @ 10/19/2005 02:11 PM PST

Srila Prabhupada says in one of his lectures:

So visnu-bhakto bhaved devah asuras tad-viparyayah. These two classes, how they are ascertained? One who is a devotee of the Supreme Lord Visnu, they are called deva, or demigods, and persons who know Visnu or may not know -- on the whole, they are not devotees of Visnu -- even they are devotee of other demigods, they are called asura. Just like Ravana. Ravana, he was a great devotee of Lord Siva, but he is described as asura, raksasa. Similarly, Hiranyakasipu was a great devotee of Lord Brahma; still, he is accepted as raksasa. So unless one is Vaisnava or devotee of the Lord Visnu, he is asura or raksasa. This is the instruction of the sastra.

See how sharp line is drawn by HDG Srila Prabhupada about demons and devotees.

So what does "lost continent of mu" has to do with Krishna or His Devotees?

Where is Krishna Katha in it?

Don't mix sand with sweet and claim that now sweet tastes better.

Wishing You All Well,
YS - Gadadhar Dasa

Posted by jatayu das @ 10/19/2005 11:06 AM PST

Hare Krishna agtSP,
BTS surely felt like being a spiritual Robin Hood to expose all those injustices imposed to the awfull poverty strikken African continent. It is right, America's and Europe's material prosperity is maintained by the scrupelous exploitation of the African people and Africa's agricultural/mineral resources. But, as Srila Prabhupada pointed out many times, this material world always was/is a place of exploiters and exploited and the solution for a Vaishnava devotee is not to point out mundane outrages injustice but to introduce devotional service to Krishna what will automatically solve all problems. The underlying motivation of BTS's preaching was to point out in his books to analyze/expose the exploiters in this modern world from his point of view and thus he created enemies, even among his own godbrothers.
Prabhupada's preaching was, no, we dont feed starving people, otherwise they have to continue their karma in future - we give them Prasadam only when there's Kirtan going on simultaneously and try to make them devotees of Krishna, then their problems in this world are really solved for ever:

Srila Prabhupada: "...Yes. So here the love propensity is being misplaced in this material world. That should be placed in God. Then the love will be perfection. Just like if you pour water on the leaves of the tree or branches of the tree it is simply waste of time. If you pour water on the root then the effect of pouring water is distributed. Similarly, foodstuff, if you place the foodstuff on your nose, on your eyes or your ears, it is simply wasted. But if you put foodstuff to the mouth in the stomach immediately the energy derived from the foodstuff is distributed throughout the whole body. Similarly, if you love God then your, automatically your love is distributed to everyone. But if you don't love, if you simply love your country... Just like an Englishman, you love your country; German, he loves his country, but there is fight between the English and the Germans because the love is misplaced. But if the Germans or the Englishmen or the Indians they put their love in God there will be no more fighting. Therefore our philosophy is to educate people how to love God. That is real religion. Sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje. That is first-class religion which teaches the follower how to love God..."

Posted by shiva das @ 10/18/2005 02:50 PM PST

Very thoughtfull and incisive article by Radha Krsna Das. Although to be honest there are more stories to be told about Bhakti Tirtha's treatment of female vaisnavas in Africa which I have heard about from those affected by him. Since I don't personally know those devotees I will leave that up to them to speak out on that topic.

Concerning one point brought up by Radha Krsna Das wherein he writes about the misconception that Bhakti Tirtha or in fact any Guru is made to suffer because of their "taking on the karma of their followers".

While this conception does in deed have some kind of verification in Gaudiya siddhanta, it is a concept that is easily misunderstood.

Here is what Srila Prabhupada wrote on the topic from Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila 22.118

avaisnava-sanga-tyaga, bahu-sisya na kariba
bahu-grantha-kalabhyasa-vyakhyana varjiba

The twelfth item is to give up the company of nondevotees. (13) One should not accept an unlimited number of disciples. (14) One should not partially study many scriptures just to be able to give references and expand explanations.

PURPORT

Accepting an unlimited number of devotees or disciples is very risky for one who is not a preacher. According to Srila Jiva Gosvami, a preacher has to accept many disciples to expand the cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. This is risky because when a spiritual master accepts a disciple, he naturally accepts the disciple's sinful activities and their reactions. Unless he is very powerful, he cannot assimilate all the sinful reactions of his disciples. Thus if he is not powerful, he has to suffer the consequences, for one is forbidden to accept many disciples.

It's very easy to misunderstand that statement. It has to be understood within the context it is written in. The context is a warning not to accept many disciples if one is not a preacher and if one is not very powerful.

If Bhakti Tirtha was suffering due to the sins of his followers it was because he wasn't a powerful person. Secondly we have to understand what this warning is all about. Why would Krishna transfer karmic reactions from a follower to a leader if that leader is a person who has been promised by Krishna to be protected by Him from all sinful reactions if he abandons all paths but that of devotional service to Sri Krishna?

sarva-dharman parityajya
mam ekam saranam vraja
aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
moksayisyami ma sucah

Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.

The warning about accepting disciples is for people who are not powerful preachers of Krishna Bhakti. An example can be given of the relationship between the head of the government and a common soldier.

If the soldier is commiting sinful acts by killing and wanton destruction of innocent people and their villages, then the leader will take on the karmic reactions of that soldier to some degree. The soldier is under the command structure. Whatever actions the soldier commits are therefore the responsibility of the leader. The leader's job is to make sure that only qualified soldiers are "in the field" and that they are trained up properly and have the moral training to qualify them them to represent the leader's military ambitions. Therefore the leader is culpable for the sinful acts commited by those under his chain of command. The leader by virtue of taking the position of ultimate authority brings upon himself the responsibility of the actions of those who are under his authority. Unless that leader is powerful and can control those under him, limiting them to non sinful actions, then he puts himself in a precarious situation because the leader is ultimatly responsible for the actions of those who are chosen to work for him and take orders from him. The leader has to make sure that his forces are up to the task of fighting in a morally acceptable way. If they are not, but he still chooses to go ahead and use them in warfare, then he risks the chance of incuring the karmic reactions created by those under his chain of command. It is risky to accept the position as absolute authority over others. Only someone who is qualified should attempt it.

So a surrendered disciple is someone who the guru has taken the responsibility over. The sastra tells the disciple to utterly surrender to the guru. If the guru accepts the disciple and the disciple surrenders completely to the guru, then the guru risks the chance of being the recipient of karmic reactions. They can be of 2 types. Those created by the disciple as long as the disciple thinks he is doing what the guru wants him to do, and those brought onto the guru by giving orders or advice to the disciple for reasons other then trying to make the best and most helpful decision for the disciple.

Unless the guru is free from all exploitative tendencies and all anarthas, and also fully surrendered to Krishna, a liberated soul, then the chance of karmic reactions are very high. Krishna promises to protect anyone from all karmic reactions if they surrender to Him. Why would this promise not extend to the bona fide spiritual master? The bona fide spiritual master is supposed to be the quintessential fully surrendered soul. So He above anyone else will be protected from all sinful reactions.

If someone who is not a "poweful" vaisnava and a "preacher" and fully surrendered to Krishna, takes on disciples, then it is risky, he may take on karmic reactions.

So if Bhakti Tirtha was suffering from karmic reactions it is because he wasn't receiving the protection that a fully surrendered soul would receive. Sometimes we may hear of descriptions where famous vaisnavas have asked for the sins of others to be put on their own heads, but that is to demonstrate the deep non exploitative and charitable character of great devotees. An educated devotee know that Krishna will not cause His pure devotee to suffer for the actions of others.

Haridas Thakura was beaten mercilessly, yet he did not even feel it. This is what the Lord offers his pure devotee. Haridas Thakura's pastime was an example to show us that no one's sinful acts can cause a pure devotee to suffer, even if they beat him with sticks.

Posted by Bhakta David Nollmeyer @ 10/18/2005 02:46 PM PST

Hare Krishna Prabhus

Is it possible for anyone connnected with Bhakti Tirtha Maharaj to clarify the issue with Hadlini Prabhu.

They are both gone now but this issue should be closed.

Hare Krishna

Bhakta David

The Martyrdom of Hladini © 2000

Hladini devi dasi and her husband Mahananda dasa were initiated in Detroit on 29 March 1970. How she came to be in Monrovia, Liberia at the time of her death is obscure. Because she was aligned with the breakaway Kirtanananda faction at the time of her death she has never been given the recognition she deserved. Now that a general amnesty has long since been granted to the breakaway faction, and indeed as former breakaway members now serve on the GBC, perhaps her story can now be told.

By the time Hladini got to Monrovia, the various factions fighting in Liberia had gotten a reputation for bizarre behavior. They wore strange costumes like wedding gowns, Donald Duck masks, shower caps, or nothing at all. They fought in a drug-induced frenzy. Many of these warriors were children who went into battle carrying teddy bears and baby dolls. Why devotees were there at all is an open question with mysterious overtones. The temple was in the capital, Monrovia, in an area nominally controlled by the Economic Community of West African States Monitoring Group (ECOMOG). The Freeport area, which is about five miles outside Monrovia, was controlled by the troops of the Independent National Patriotic Front of Liberia (INPFL), led by Prince Yormei Johnson. Prince Johnson was a notorious killer who had tortured and killed the former President Samual Doe. The event was filmed on video and the copies sold in the marketplace. Johnson also was known for killing his own men at a faster rate than the enemy.

Now, it so happened that the devotees wanted to do food distribution: there was widespread starvation and two out of every three Liberians had been made homeless. So, they approached Johnson and made a proposal to him which ran something like this: “Since you control the port and all the international food aid that comes to the country passes through your hands, why don’t you give us some of the food? We will distribute that food to the hungry and you will get credit for being a great humanitarian.” The warlord agreed to this proposal and thereafter he diverted supplies of commodity food to the devotees, who then distributed it as prasadam. He even visited the temple and received a Bhagavad Gita as-it-is. Apparently he visited more than once and enjoyed prasadam. But, the warlord’s reputation for insane murder bothered some of the devotees, so one day a Nigerian devotee wrote a letter to Prince Johnson that said, in effect, “You are a great personality, so you should stop conducting yourself in such a demonic manner and stop killing people. This will benefit you and all humanity.” It has been claimed that Hladini was the author of the letter, but that is not true. There were two young brothers who were bhaktas in the temple. It is they who heard Johnson and his troops arrive late in the night of Thursday, 13th September 1990. One of them hid behind the bathtub, the other in a closet. Because they hid, they survived. There was banging on the door, and then a crash. All the devotees were rounded up downstairs. There were seven African men and an African woman, plus Hladini devi dasi, disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Johnson ranted and raged and held up the letter, shaking it. “How dare you send this to me!” he bellowed in his pidgin West African English. Then they pushed the devotees out and shoved them into a waiting vehicle. They were driven over the low bridge that crosses the muddy St Paul River and then the little convoy stopped at a dirty beach by the mouth of the river. At gunpoint, the nine devotees were forced out and herded onto the sand. Johnson announced that only the men would be killed. It may be the women were to be raped and released, or left entirely unmolested. Such things are terribly random in these circumstances, and very hard to predict. But it was then that Hladini had her finest hour and showed bravery greater than any man I have ever known. As Johnson raised his weapon to fire the execution volley, Hladini leapt forward and attacked Johnson with her hands. “How dare you kill devotees of Krishna!” she shouted. But she was a woman, and a beautiful but weak one at that, so her attack had little result but to ensure her own death. All were slain save the African girl, who is no longer an active devotee. They chanted as they were shot down. That was the night of September 13th, or it could have been the early morning hours of September 14th (Indira Ekadasi). The bodies were left on the beach. When the tide came in they were washed out, but as the river is tidal at that point, the bodies were carried back into the town with the tide. The bodies of some of the men could be seen drifting in and out in the St Paul River for days, their dead hands stiff with rigor mortis holding their beads within their beadbags. Hladini’s body also drifted in. Her sari became entangled with the structure of the bridge and remained there for several days, rising and falling with the tide. According to Tribhuvanatha prabhu, who helped investigate this and interviewed one of the brothers, “It freaked out the whole town.” Not content with his work thus far, Prince Johnson continued on his bloody rampage, murdering a total of 29 people that night. In 1996 the interim government of Charles Taylor attempted to arrest him for murder and Johnson precipitated a wave of violent riots. He later went “insane” and is rumored to be in an asylum in Nigeria. The faction he led disintegrated. The next time you are distributing a book and someone insults you, think twice about calling him a demon. Understand what a demon really is, as opposed to the merely misguided or unfortunate. For a chaste woman, given the choice between rape and death, with your students about to be slain in the cruelest manner before your eyes, what do you do? Hladini faced an impossible choice in a doomed, impossible situation. She reacted with integrity and loyalty and without fear and is a credit to her spiritual master. Oh, such a disciple! But she had such a spiritual master! And, we know how Prabhupada admired courage. In short, she passed her test gloriously. Let no one attempt to minimize her. In Lagos, Nigeria the devotees found out about it from Liberian refugees they encountered on sankirtan several months later. One of my Nigerian friends wrote me in London about it.

http://www.iskcon.net/inmemoriam/devotees/d_Hladin.html

Posted by Bhakta David Nollmeyer @ 10/18/2005 02:45 PM PST

Hare Krishna Prabhus

Is it possible for anyone connnected with Bhakti Tirtha Maharaj to clarify the issue with Hadlini Parbhu.

They are both gone now but this issue should be closed.

Hare Krishna

Bhakta David

The Martyrdom of Hladini © 2000

Hladini devi dasi and her husband Mahananda dasa were initiated in Detroit on 29 March 1970. How she came to be in Monrovia, Liberia at the time of her death is obscure. Because she was aligned with the breakaway Kirtanananda faction at the time of her death she has never been given the recognition she deserved. Now that a general amnesty has long since been granted to the breakaway faction, and indeed as former breakaway members now serve on the GBC, perhaps her story can now be told.

By the time Hladini got to Monrovia, the various factions fighting in Liberia had gotten a reputation for bizarre behavior. They wore strange costumes like wedding gowns, Donald Duck masks, shower caps, or nothing at all. They fought in a drug-induced frenzy. Many of these warriors were children who went into battle carrying teddy bears and baby dolls. Why devotees were there at all is an open question with mysterious overtones. The temple was in the capital, Monrovia, in an area nominally controlled by the Economic Community of West African States Monitoring Group (ECOMOG). The Freeport area, which is about five miles outside Monrovia, was controlled by the troops of the Independent National Patriotic Front of Liberia (INPFL), led by Prince Yormei Johnson. Prince Johnson was a notorious killer who had tortured and killed the former President Samual Doe. The event was filmed on video and the copies sold in the marketplace. Johnson also was known for killing his own men at a faster rate than the enemy.

Now, it so happened that the devotees wanted to do food distribution: there was widespread starvation and two out of every three Liberians had been made homeless. So, they approached Johnson and made a proposal to him which ran something like this: “Since you control the port and all the international food aid that comes to the country passes through your hands, why don’t you give us some of the food? We will distribute that food to the hungry and you will get credit for being a great humanitarian.” The warlord agreed to this proposal and thereafter he diverted supplies of commodity food to the devotees, who then distributed it as prasadam. He even visited the temple and received a Bhagavad Gita as-it-is. Apparently he visited more than once and enjoyed prasadam. But, the warlord’s reputation for insane murder bothered some of the devotees, so one day a Nigerian devotee wrote a letter to Prince Johnson that said, in effect, “You are a great personality, so you should stop conducting yourself in such a demonic manner and stop killing people. This will benefit you and all humanity.” It has been claimed that Hladini was the author of the letter, but that is not true. There were two young brothers who were bhaktas in the temple. It is they who heard Johnson and his troops arrive late in the night of Thursday, 13th September 1990. One of them hid behind the bathtub, the other in a closet. Because they hid, they survived. There was banging on the door, and then a crash. All the devotees were rounded up downstairs. There were seven African men and an African woman, plus Hladini devi dasi, disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Johnson ranted and raged and held up the letter, shaking it. “How dare you send this to me!” he bellowed in his pidgin West African English. Then they pushed the devotees out and shoved them into a waiting vehicle. They were driven over the low bridge that crosses the muddy St Paul River and then the little convoy stopped at a dirty beach by the mouth of the river. At gunpoint, the nine devotees were forced out and herded onto the sand. Johnson announced that only the men would be killed. It may be the women were to be raped and released, or left entirely unmolested. Such things are terribly random in these circumstances, and very hard to predict. But it was then that Hladini had her finest hour and showed bravery greater than any man I have ever known. As Johnson raised his weapon to fire the execution volley, Hladini leapt forward and attacked Johnson with her hands. “How dare you kill devotees of Krishna!” she shouted. But she was a woman, and a beautiful but weak one at that, so her attack had little result but to ensure her own death. All were slain save the African girl, who is no longer an active devotee. They chanted as they were shot down. That was the night of September 13th, or it could have been the early morning hours of September 14th (Indira Ekadasi). The bodies were left on the beach. When the tide came in they were washed out, but as the river is tidal at that point, the bodies were carried back into the town with the tide. The bodies of some of the men could be seen drifting in and out in the St Paul River for days, their dead hands stiff with rigor mortis holding their beads within t