"Recently, there has been many negative things being said about my Nama Guru and dearmost wellwisher- His Holiness Bhakti Tirtha Swami. Maharaja, as most of you know, left his body rather recently after an intense and extremely painful fight with melanoma skin cancer." Read full article.
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NEXT ARTICLE:
"Time Is Running Out: My Final Article" by Hari dasa
"Mentality of a Sheltered Disciple" by Rocana dasa
"Hari Hurrah" by Rocana dasa
"Sentiment, Not Siddhanta" by Rocana dasa
"The Letter He Didn’t Ask Me To Write"

Replies: 74 Comments

Posted by Nitya Siddha dasa @ 11/15/2005 05:30 PM PST

Hare Krishna Mahavegavati Dasi Prabhu,All Glories to Srila Prabhupada,Please accept my humble obeisances.
Thankyou for sharing your experiences with us all here.I for one do not doubt your veracity and I applaud you for having the courage to speak the truth.Your revalations about BT(OK agreed let's leave out the S 'cause he does'nt deserve it !)certainly give us all that are lovers of the truth a much more balanced picture of the actual nature and activities of this egotistical self centred, over glorified coakroach.There are those that wish to defend the indefensible and whitewash the decades of deceipt,lies and offences that these agents of Kali-yuga have burdened us all with.Thier vision is stifled by thier own self serving ego's and arrogance.Thier can be no reforms within Iskcon unless the truth is outed and those that are sincere and honest followers of Vedanta without selfish motivation can free society from the corrupt regime that goes under the name of the GBC.The same GBC that oversaw and almost condoned the abuse and molestation of innocent children,the same same GBC that confiscated and confiscates the street collections of hundreds of sincere but niave followers,the same GBC that has plundered the hearts and minds as well as the purses of thousands of innocent souls for thier own self aggrandisement.How far they are away from what Srila Prabhupada actually wanted us to be,and how foolish and childish are those that recommend Diksa initiation from them or condone thier posistions.Who but a child would worship the picture of any of these cockroaches?I thankyou for exposing this anathema to us all and may the Lord protect you for doing so.

Your Servant,
Nitya Siddha dasa

Posted by Mahavegavati Dasi @ 11/15/2005 12:31 PM PST

Dear Prabhus,

Hare Krsna. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. PAMFO I hope all is well.

Most of us who have given so much of our life (some of us still doing so) in service to Hari, Guru and Vaisnava, in reality do not want to say anything that will disturb anyone's faith in their guru; yet, due to the nature of ISKCON (in terms of how Srila Prabhupada had set it up), and how the GBC and many of the ISKCON gurus have taken Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON mission off course due to their dishonest spiritual and material dealings, some "oldtime" ISKCON devotees feel impelled (even forced by dint of circumstance) to come forth with various "unpalatable" truths - my using the word Srila Prabhupada uses in His BG 10.4 purport concerning satyam. (I'm going to begin from "Asammoha".)

"Asammoha, freedom from doubt and delusion, can be achieved when one is not hesitant and when he understands the transcendental philosophy. Slowly but surely he becomes free from bewilderment. Nothing should be accepted blindly; everything should be accepted with care and with caution. Ksama, forgiveness, should be practiced, and one should excuse the minor offenses of others. Satyam, truthfulness, means that facts should be presented as they are for the benefit of others. Facts should not be misrepresented. According to social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth should be spoken in a straight and forward way, so that others will understand actually what the facts are. If a man is a thief and if people are warned that he is a thief, that is truth. Although sometimes the truth is unpalatable, one should not refrain from speaking it. Truthfulness demands that the facts be presented as they are for the benefit of others. That is the definition of truth."

I was contacted by three writers on this conversation and agreed that I would write something since I directly served under BT for so many years, and was with him and my Godsister, Hladini prabhu, when they came together to Nigeria. BT instructed me to travel with them, and despite my begging numerous times that I be allowed to leave their company when the situation between them became so bizarre, and continue with my previous service, BT insisted I stay.

It started with BT coming to me telling me how "That woman is trying to pull me down..." (I'm making it very simple here. It was a VERY INSANE situation, and I begged BT many times to allow me to remove myself from their association and allow me to continue my services being rendered prior to their coming. BT refused, so - being trained to always follow the instructions of my direct ISKCON authorities - I stayed on in this HELLISH "drama" (and it was a TRIP!, a VERY CRAZY one at that!!!).

Hladini prabhu, who had not said anything to me concerning the situation, began to confide in me. Thus, BOTH BT and Hladini prabhu were separately coming to me telling me their side of the story, blaming the other person for what was going on. (This also included both of them showing me the letters the other person was writing to them, neither of them knowing the other person was coming and confiding in me.) Hladini prabhu ended up dead as a result of these exchanges, and BT tried to have me done in as well because of what I knew.

Besides this particular situation between BT and Hladini prabhu which became SO INSANE, serving under BT was HELLISH because of BT's dishonesty and diabolical intrigues. What I wrote in those VNN articles was only the tip of the iceberg. I am still extremely traumatised by it, along with the other (physical) results from my stay.

I knew that even with the little bit I had written, most likely no one would believe me, and I knew I would get condemned and have to sustain repercussion for writing the little I did. But I wrote it for the sake of truth, my feeling it would help other devotees in various ways. (No need to explain all of that here. Besides other things, obviously when someone is being so much glorified as a pure devotee, and some devotee(s) is (are) seeing something off kilter with that guru, the devotee will consider that his/her thinking is wrong as opposed to the fact that it is in actuality the guru who is in deviation.)

If anyone with any intelligence was to ask WHY I would take such a risk to write such a thing publically, they could only come up with two logical answers: Either it was true, (and thus I have the courage of conviction), or that I was crazy and in my insanity, I was believing what I was writing to be true. Other than these two reasons, WHY else would I write such a thing for the devotees to not believe and then condemn me, even to the point of threats and violence? (BT for years was threatening me to keep quiet about all the things I knew he had done. He was especially concerned that I keep the lip buttoned about what happened with Hladini prabhu.)

There is a lot more to be said. I was THERE! BT was sending BOTH Hladini and I to Liberia, when he KNEW there was a HORRIFIC coup going on, (neither Hladini nor I knowing about the coup). BT was ALWAYS reading the newspapers, his ALWAYS checking on the current events ALL OVER THE WORLD, ESPECIALLY about Africa!

There are more details to how and why Hladini prabhu was killed. Why Krsna made me come out alive from this to be the "knower," I wish Krsna had NOT arranged this, but He did; so what can be done? I lost my devotee friends over it because of BT lying to them about me in his paranoia that I MIGHT speak something to someone, and
there were other repercussions. But the truth is the truth, and at some point - BT's continued actions and their repercussions pushing me into it - I opened my mouth, and sometimes still do. Srila Prabhupada quoted one verse sach bale tomare lutha jutha jagat mohaye, "When one tells lies, everyone is enchanted, but when one tells the truth, s/he is beaten with sticks."

I KNOW that by my writing what I am here, (even without going into the further "gory" details of Hladini prabhu's death and why, as well as so many of the other horrific things I KNOW FOR A FACT that BT did), I am subjecting myself to danger because there are many passionately fanatical devotees out there NOT willing to objectively hear and weigh out things when it comes to someone in an ISKCON position, especially in a position of being their ISKCON guru.

I've been called a "snake" and so many other things for speaking up with the truth concerning BT and the GBC in general, and I've been physically attacked by devotees for my words. BT tried to have me killed in Africa ONLY because of his (own) PARANOIA that I MIGHT say something to someone about what I knew, but was unsuccessful in these attempts. When that failed, he did a most successful character assassination despite my MANY MANY years of SUBMISSIVE and FAITHFUL service under him (along with the funds I supplied from a settlement for the ISKCON Africa preaching mission), and my tolerating all the - for lack of a better word - hell that BT put me through with his lies, deceit, politics, dishonesty, and... - my doing so only because I knew how Srila Prabhupada wanted devotees to preach and spread His mission in Africa.

Although some other devotees are afraid to speak up with the truth about things they know directly about BT - many of them having served under BT and experiencing BT's duplicity and dishonesty (and thuggery) - I am saying the little (little in comparison to what happened), that I am.

Because Hari Das is a disciple of my Godbrother, I do not want to say more. For some disciples of my Godbrothers, it is faith in their guru - often enough that guru not being possessed of the character and qualities a genuine guru is possessed of - that is continuing to keep them engaged in service to Hari and Vaisnava. Many of these disciples are very sincere and believe their gurus to be bona fide, so can they be faulted? Ultimately it's Krsna Who is helping us to see as we do, based on varying factors.

The real blame belongs on those GBC and "gurus" who have usurped Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON with their "I and mine" consciousness, taking what does NOT belong to them and making certain people THINK they "own" a particular slice of the (ISKCON) pie.

If Srila Prabhupada's position as ISKCON Founder-Acarya was being properly acknowledged, and these gurus had not contributed to and demeaned Srila Prabhupada and His position, we would not be having to engage in such discussions concerning the subtle and gross deviations of such persons.

This fallen servant,

Mahavegavati Dasi
Hare Krsna

Posted by Nitya Siddha dasa @ 11/08/2005 02:25 PM PST

Hare Krishna Prabhus,Vijay,you are quite right about Demigods,Yogis and other beings in the universe being able to contact us in different ways if they wish.We learn from Shastra that the Demigods did indeed visit the earth thousands of years ago,during the time of Krishna's Lila and before.It is said that the demigods used to visit the earth at that time as a result of the performance of Yagna and that they could be seen by common poeple.Nowadays though, according to the vedas the demigods no longer physically manifest themselves before common poeple because there is no Yagna(fire sacrifice)being performed.Although you could argue that the Yagna of the yuga,namely the chanting of the Holy Names or Sankirtan is going on,therefore there is some Yagna being performed in the present day.Certainly though, I have not heard of anyone seeing Demigods physically manifest before us these days, although given we can be aware of thier presence in other ways.I do not doubt that based on Shastric evidence that there are millions of demigods of different varieties throughout the universe,such as Siddhas,Charanas,Ghandarvas,Apsaras,etc,as well as a whole host of subtle beings from the earthly and nether regions.Also has anyone had an communication from Demigods,Yogis and other beings,I would be interested to hear it,that would perhaps be another debate.I am no authority on the significance and interpretation of dreams and I would not like to speculate in this area,which is why I only stick to Guru,Sadha and Shastra when posting on these subjects.I think my central argument was that I thought it was unlikely that BTS had any control over his destiny after death therefore how could he say that he would be able to visit anyone after he left this world?If anyone else has got any other theories I would be interested to hear them,I have an open mind on the subject.

Your Servant,
Nitya Siddha dasa

Posted by Vijay @ 11/08/2005 02:48 AM PST

Just to add even demigods who are subtle and other lower enetities can communicate with us in many differnt ways, even yogis can do it telepathicaly in or out the body, the ancestors in pitru-loka occasionally are said to communicate in some way with their decendents stop shrada and worship.

I think either ghost or liberated seems quite narrow considering the possibilities offered by stories in ramayana mahabharata etc.

Posted by Leslie Howard @ 11/07/2005 07:54 AM PST

Regarding the ghost debate, I don't see why those here are so sure that the only common way for a person who has left their body to communicate through dreams or otherwise with those on this earth plane is if they were a ghost. There are many instances of people being contacted by deceased loved ones who were not ghosts. I think with the vedic knowledge that is passed down to us some make presumptions based upon it that things are very black and white, that either you are a ghost, totally liberated, or forced to immediatly take another body. Why can't there be an intermittant time where the soul processes some things before reentering a body? My sense of the creation beyond what we generally can understand in this material life is that there is so much more to it, it is so variagated, there are unlimited possiblities, I think it is a silly material practice to act like we can really understand these things based on a few statements of Vedic guidance. Really people are filling in the blanks in between with their presumptions.

I personally find it a strange point of debate whether or not BTS can appear in someone's dream and if so that that makes him a ghost or totally liberated. Dreams are a personal thing, and I've had plenty myself where I felt very directly guided by spiritual entities that weren't ghosts or necessarily in any other particular catagory of liberation. I have dreamed of Prabhupada and BTS even, and so has my husband, and we felt real contact in that. As a matter of fact I believe that people in bodies can visit one another in dreams. Sometimes it is symbolic, but sometimes not. I've recieved messages that a friend needs help or helped a friend myself through the dreaming process. There is really a lot to these things and I don't think it is wise to make a lot of generalizations about such things based on a few statements.

Posted by Nitya Siddha dasa @ 11/05/2005 06:48 AM PST

For the benefit of Hari-dasa who has become something of a "Loose Cannon"on these blogs,I would just like to clarify something about interpreting Dreams.
Many devotees including myself have had dreams of Srila Prabhupada and other Devotees as well as other poeple in our lives both living and no longer physically with us.Although I believe it is transcendental to have a dream about Prabhupada,Krishna or any other devotee,I would not say that the appearance of such personalities in dreams can be attributed to Ghostly activity.Prabhupada once said that you may see gold and then a mountain in waking consciousness then when you dream you may see a golden mountain.This is how dreams occur,they are a mixture of images and experiences that we have had in our present and current lives and not necessarily based on reality.I do not believe that they are ghostly apparitions.It is however possible for a real Ghost to manifest in a dream and this is a seperate matter.As you would'nt call Srila Prabhupada a ghost or BTS for that matter.A ghost would leave no doubt in the mind of it's victim as to his actual identity.
For most of us,let's say 99.9% of the population our destiny after death is not in our hands.That I think we can all agree is determined by higher authorities in the universe.So how could BTS have any control over his destination in the after life?would he be somehow able to come back to visit his godbrother's after death?I said that it is possible to do this if one becomes a ghost perhaps.But one only becomes a ghost in special circumstances,i.e when one commits suicide or dies an untimely death,such as being killed in an accident or being murdered.As far as I can ascertain this did not happen to BTS,as he died from natural causes.The reader can draw his own conclusions as to wether it was actually possible for BTS to visit anyone after death,or was it just mere whimsical fantasy?
There is however another way that the 0.01%can revisit after death and also decide his own destiny after leaving the body.In the vedas we learn that there have been many personalities that have achieved a state of liberation and total detachment from this material world by yoga practice.Grandfather Bhismadeva did it on the battlefield of Kurukshetra,Kardama muni did it,and so on.This very advanced stage of consciosness is rarely achieved although obviously not impossible.As it is stated in the Bhagavad-Gita "Sa Mahatma Sudhurlabaha""Such a great soul is very rare".In this Kali yuga,even rarer,although again not entirely impossible.As I am not a very advanced devotee myself I am not in a posistion to judge who is liberated and who is not.But based on my own common sense and logic as well as what I have observed,I would say that it is highly unlikely that BTS or any one else that I have met(except Srila Prabhupada) were on this platform.Some may disagree,but until I see evidence otherwise,I remained unconvinced.

Your Servant,

Nitya Siddha dasa

Posted by hari dasa @ 11/03/2005 03:07 AM PST

quote from radha krsna

"A couple of notes on a couple of points posted previously here.

1 - Nitya Siddha Prabhu correctly states on October 18th that according to Bhagavad-gita the soul passes into a new body after death. The soul doesn’t remain in “another” plane just to continue “communicating” with others for the fun of it -- as Bhakti-Tirtha Swami proposes. Ghosts are the only beings that I can think of that would do that. Was BTS planning to become a ghost after death?"

-ask the many senior devotees that have had dreams of Prabhupada after he left- was he a ghost? KC is a mystical process and the unusual is probable as spiritual energy is unlimited

"2 - The same day Shiva das Prabhu made the point that according to Gaudiya Siddhanta a guru may indeed have to suffer on account of his preaching (specifically if accepting more disciples than what he is qualified to accept). I agree completly with this point. Nonetheless, Bhakti-Tirtha Swami’s point is different. He attempts to convince us that he has to suffer in order to help others. He suffers to help, not suffers while trying to help. And that is a deviation from Vaisnava doctrine."

-BTS was compassionate, something you need to learn prabhu instead of trying to defame someone you are clearly envious of

"The “communications” and the compulsory suffering are a couple of instances of BTS’s theological deviations and pitiful contradictions. The question here is, where was the GBC’s Sastric Advisory Committe all along to stop BTS from constantly putting his foot in his mouth?"

-maybe think of your own deviations prabhu such as blaspheming the devotees who have dedicated their lives to spreading the holy name? I think that you should act like a Prabhupada disciple and show a good example yourself instead of making so many offenses

YS
Radha Krsna dasa

Posted by Radha Krsna dasa @ 11/02/2005 09:55 PM PST

A couple of notes on a couple of points posted previously here.

1 - Nitya Siddha Prabhu correctly states on October 18th that according to Bhagavad-gita the soul passes into a new body after death. The soul doesn’t remain in “another” plane just to continue “communicating” with others for the fun of it -- as Bhakti-Tirtha Swami proposes. Ghosts are the only beings that I can think of that would do that. Was BTS planning to become a ghost after death?

2 - The same day Shiva das Prabhu made the point that according to Gaudiya Siddhanta a guru may indeed have to suffer on account of his preaching (specifically if accepting more disciples than what he is qualified to accept). I agree completly with this point. Nonetheless, Bhakti-Tirtha Swami’s point is different. He attempts to convince us that he has to suffer in order to help others. He suffers to help, not suffers while trying to help. And that is a deviation from Vaisnava doctrine.

The “communications” and the compulsory suffering are a couple of instances of BTS’s theological deviations and pitiful contradictions. The question here is, where was the GBC’s Sastric Advisory Committe all along to stop BTS from constantly putting his foot in his mouth?

YS
Radha Krsna dasa

Posted by hari dasa @ 11/01/2005 03:39 AM PST

lets get one thing perfectly straight pandu, you are being very stupid and offensive and you will not stop, i have been trying to help you but you just dont listen.

Once i said to BTS "thank you for your mercy", he replied "i have none, it is all Prabhupadas mercy"

as soon as the gbc dropped the names ending in Pada, he agreed and we called him Gurudeva or Guru Maharaja (most of us did anyways) and he emphasised to those who were more guru groupies to chant Prabhupadas pranama first before his.

you do not know much about my guru so keep quiet and stop complaining so much. as far as the use of the BTG article i posted it because it was already posted on the btswami website so others could share it with others. Maybe read the article as it represents what most think about BTS not the vast minority of whiners on this site

grow up pandu

Posted by Pandu das @ 10/28/2005 07:12 AM PST

Hari das says,

there are 2 distinct differences between the 2 opinions, one(theirs) is offensive and mine is just defending my guru which is my duty.

Hari das,
You can look at it that way if you like. As I see it, the difference is that one side is interested in unbiased truth while the other is interested in eulogies.

You claim that we are offensive, but my view is that the root of offensiveness in this whole issue is that Bhakti-Tirtha falsely presented himself as a pure devotee, and his disciples continue to fuel that offense.

In Srila Prabhupada's purport to Caitanya Caritamrita, Madhya Lila 10.182, he says,

“The Lord herein confirms that if one is overestimated, glorification is just another form of blasphemy. In this way He protests this so-called offensive statement.”

Whereas Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu protested against his glorification, and whereas Maharaj Prithu (S.B. 4.15.22-26) did the same, Bhakti Tirtha obviously appreciated and encouraged his own glorification. What is the point of worshipping a "guru" who enjoys it?

Also, your posting of that article here is spam and a potential copyright issue. Next time link to the article.

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/28/2005 04:12 AM PST

this is satyarajas article on bts, at least he knows vaisnava etiquette and gives aknowledgement and respect where it is due. read it with an open mind and not an offensive mentality and you might just see that he not the demon some proclaim him to be...

Rain of Mercy: The Exemplary Life of Bhakti Tirtha Swami

By Satyaraja Dasa

A determined, charismatic spiritual leader, his example of dedication to the mission of the spiritual master can inspire us all.

Bhakti Tirtha Swami (1950-2005), one of my dearest friends and mentors, was a person of singular determination, a courageous and bold preacher of Krsna consciousness. He had a passion for Srila Prabhupada’s mission that took him around the world, particularly to Eastern Europe, behind the Iron Curtain, where he surpassed all others in distributing his spiritual master’s books, often risking his own life, and to Africa, where kings and queens acknowledged him as a chief and recognized him as a spiritual leader. He was esteemed in Prabhupada’s own institution as well. In ISKCON he was a respected sannyasi, a monk in the renounced order of life, and a guru, with disciples of his own. He was the world’s first Afro-American Vaisnava spiritual master, and he published many books, too, explaining how to apply Krsna consciousness in the modern world. His books use the language of conflict resolution and depth psychology, as well as that of the New Age. They foster spiritual advancement through principle-centered leadership techniques and inner realizations. In addition, he had a tremendous ability to touch people on a deep level, to change lives, as thousands of Godbrothers, friends, and disciples can attest to.

The various names by which Bhakti Tirtha Swami is known in ISKCON tell us much about who he was. And I often enjoyed discussing this with him. For example, Srila Prabhupada gave him the name Ghanasyama Dasa, which means “servant of the blackish cloud.” The name Ghanasyama refers to Krsna, who is as beautiful as a dark rain cloud, with a complexion to match. So I used to playfully say to Bhakti Tirtha Swami that in naming him “Ghanasyama” Prabhupada had acknowledged his beauty as a charismatic black man, an Afro-American with marked exquisiteness both materially and spiritually. Upon hearing this, of course, he would characteristically laugh, or shine his contagious smile, expressing humility as he waved away with his hand the very notion of being like Krsna or of possessing some form of visible beauty, whether mundane or otherworldly.

I also pointed out to him that “Bhakti Tirtha,” the name he was given at his sannyasa ceremony, was highly appropriate as well. He is like the true tirtha, or “holy place,” I would say, in that such places are like bridges to the spiritual world. The word tirtha is conceptually linked to tirthankara, or “bridge-builder,” the idea being that a true holy place is like a bridge to the spiritual realm, and that teachers who help people achieve that realm are like tirthas in their own right. He, especially, was like a bridge, using bhakti, or devotion, to bring people to Krsna. Hence, “Bhakti Tirtha.” Along related lines, his style of conveying Krsna consciousness emphasized the importance of “bridge-building,” so that outsiders would have easy access to the philosophy. Due to his highly developed sense of compassion, he intensely labored to bring people to the lotus feet of Krsna. For a brief period in ISKCON’s history, in fact, Bhakti Tirtha Swami was known as Srila Krsnapada, which, again, indicates his favored position at Lord Krsna’s lotus feet and his ever-broadening capacity to give others shelter there. Of course, he was also a “swami,” which indicates one who is able to control his senses. As we shall see, his life as a devotee of Krsna reveals these qualities in abundance.

John Favors God, and God Favors Him

Bhakti Tirtha Swami was born John Edwin Favors on February 25, 1950, the youngest of four sisters and two brothers. He was marked by a speech impediment that he thought he might never conquer. An additional obstacle was that he was born into a poor family in a Cleveland ghetto. But his parents taught him well, giving him confidence, religion, and a sense of giving. Although he had few clothes, for example, his mother would often donate them to neighboring boys and girls, hoping to teach her children the importance of charity. She also volunteered long hours at local churches, giving her family a sense of sacrifice.

In fact, John was a child evangelist, and while his speech defect made giving sermons difficult, he spoke best when speaking on religious topics. Somehow, his stuttering lessened when he shared the words of scripture, and in later years it subsided, with only the barest hint of it when he spoke. As a youth he regularly appeared on local television stations to preach the Christian Gospel. “Because I had seen so much poverty,” he said, “I was interested in doing something for myself and others.” He excelled as a student while at Cleveland’s East Technical High School and spent a good portion of his spare time doing welfare work.

He received a scholarship to Hawken Academy, a distinguished preparatory school in Cleveland. While there he became enamored of Dr. Martin Luther King's civil rights movement, and he eventually became a local leader for the cause. Despite his involvement in political concerns, or perhaps because of it, he became an exemplary student. In 1968 his exceptional grades earned him a scholarship to Princeton University, where he majored in psychology and Afro-American studies. At Princeton his political interests grew as he joined the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, the Black Panther Party, and other activist groups. He was elected student body president in 1971 and chairman of the Third World Coalition in 1972.

Melvin R. McCray, one of his colleagues at Princeton, remembers him as an extraordinary person. McCray wrote in the Princeton Alumni Weekly:

I saw John Favors for the first time at the introductory meeting of the Association of Black Collegians (ABC) in the fall of 1970. As ABC’s president, he delivered an impassioned speech on the role of blacks at Princeton. Though only 5' 9", he was an imposing figure in his leopard-print dashiki and matching fez-like hat, with walking stick, pipe, bushy afro, and full beard. At that time he called himself Toshombe Abdul, and he spoke with the force and dynamism of Malcolm X.
While at Princeton and soon thereafter John began serving as assistant coordinator for penal programs in the State of New Jersey in the Public Defender’s office. He was also a director in several drug abuse clinics and a special consultant for Educational Testing Services in the United States. Through it all he maintained a healthy interest in “mystic Christianity,” as he called it, and earnestly pursued his spiritual calling. This is not to say that while at college he didn’t indulge in the usual activities of the day. It was, after all, the turbulent '60s, with its sex, drugs, and rock 'n' roll. Still, while reminiscing he said, “I tried my best in those days to forget God. But despite my best efforts, I inevitably found myself continually glorifying Him.”

He explored the teachings of Sri Chinmoy, Swami Satchidananda, and a little-known mentor whom he never named. This latter mentor directed him to the saint who would become his spiritual master, His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. At first, however, he was reluctant to pursue Prabhupada and his teachings. “The first time I saw a Hare Krsna,” he said, “was up in Harvard Square at a football game. It was very cold, and a group of them were standing on the corner chanting. I looked at them and thought, ‘This is the epitome of absurdity.’ I presumed they were rich white students just out looking for some different kind of drug or alternate experience. But when I passed by again two hours later, they were still on the corner chanting in the cold. I knew then there was something extraordinary about them.”

Finally, a girlfriend gave him an album of Srila Prabhupada singing, called "Krishna Meditation." As he listened intently to the guru whom his mentor had suggested he would recognize as his eternal spiritual teacher, he began to remember something he had long forgotten: He was a soul caught in a material body, and he wasn’t black or white but, rather, a spiritual being. He began to weep uncontrollably.

Soon he was visiting the Brooklyn Hare Krsna temple, and soon after that he renounced the little he had to pursue Krsna consciousness with complete conviction. He moved into the temple, where the leading devotees, seeing his intellectual acumen and natural teaching ability, sent him to Dallas, Texas, to assist in the then fledgling Gurukula, a school for ISKCON children. Upon arriving there, however, he met Satsvarupa Dasa Goswami, and the course of his life changed. He was attracted to Satsvarupa Maharaja’s simple and straightforward presentation of Krsna consciousness and accepted the senior devotee as a sort of instructing spiritual master. At the time, Satsvarupa was starting a mobile sankirtana party, a group of devotees who would travel together distributing Srila Prabhupada’s books. John wanted in.

A Beautiful Blackish Cloud Arises

It quickly became evident that John Favors was no ordinary devotee. For example, he chanted at least thirty-two rounds of Hare Krsna on his beads daily, rather than the standard sixteen. To accomplish this, he would rise earlier than most devotees and would usually go to sleep late into the night. He also kept a diary in which he wrote a letter to Srila Prabhupada every day. In these letters, he would reveal his weaknesses, pray to overcome them, and express his determination to become pure. His eating was sparse, usually fruits and nuts, sometimes a few carrots, bananas, and a little butter.

Most amazingly, he outdid everyone else on the team he traveled with, distributing Prabhupada’s books with the skill of an experienced book salesman. Soon, Hridayananda Maharaja took over the party. He trained the young men, particularly Mahabuddhi Dasa and John, to sell books to university libraries. The party became known in ISKCON as “The Library Party,” underlining its newly chosen venue for selling books. John was highly successful in bringing books to the collegiate intelligentsia.

As weeks turned into months, he was initiated. Satsvarupa Maharaja recommended him highly to Srila Prabhupada, who wrote back a letter in February, 1973, giving him the name Ghanasyama Dasa. As Prabhupada’s “blackish cloud,” he lovingly created a distinct brand of torrential rain--a downpour of spiritual literature.

Throughout 1974 and 1975, Srila Prabhupada wrote numerous letters to Satsvarupa Maharaja and Ramesvara Maharaja, under whom Ghanasyama served. Prabhupada praised his activities and marveled at his success in selling books. Prabhupada also wrote Ghanasyama several personal letters during this period. In one, he wrote, “You are rendering first quality service to Krsna by your preaching success. Be blessed and continue your efforts and Krsna will recognize you very quickly.”

Teaming up with Kalakantha Dasa, Ghanasyama next went to Europe, specifically England, to carry on the book distribution of the Library Party. However, success there was minimal. As Kalakantha later reflected, “The Brits, at that time, seemed reluctant because of the India connection. It was still a sore spot for them.” After a while, the two ISKCON compatriots split up, with Ghanasyama going to Eastern Europe. There he distributed Prabhupada’s books in communist countries, where in most cases religion was banned. He lived his Krsna conscious life in secret, and in austere conditions. In Russia he lived on public trains, going from one to another throughout the night, chanting his rounds in public bathrooms. Despite all contrary odds, he continued to distribute with great success, remaining the top Library Party salesman. His determination and positive results brought great pleasure to Srila Prabhupada.

Rain of Mercy

When Prabhupada was ill, preparing to depart from this world in the summer and fall of 1977, reports of Ghanasyama’s exploits were among the few things that brought him solace. Numerous letters from Tamal Krsna Goswami, Prabhupada’s secretary at the time, reported Prabhupada’s unparalleled joy when hearing of Ghanasyama’s activities. Naturally, then, when Prabhupada made his final trip to the West, to England, Ghanasyama received special mercy in Prabhupada’s presence. He called the young book distributor into his room and, asking him to sit at his side, embraced him. With tears in his eyes, Prabhupada told him, “Your life is perfect.”

But his “perfection” did not make him complacent. After Prabhupada left this world, Ghanasyama continued to distribute books like a man possessed, and to serve his guru’s mission with full enthusiasm. In due course, in New Vrindavan, West Virginia, he took sannyasa from Kirtanananda Swami, receiving the name Bhakti Tirtha Swami. This was in 1979. Soon thereafter he started The Committee for Urban Spiritual Development. The aim of this project was close to his heart, since, as an inner-city child himself, he could relate to the concerns of the downtrodden and knew how to bring them to Krsna consciousness. Inner-city preaching, combined with welfare work and prasadam distribution, usually through opening restaurants, became a mainstay of his endeavors. His restaurant in Washington, D.C., was particularly successful.

It was around this time that he had a dream wherein Srila Prabhupada requested him to “open the door.” In the dream, he continued to tend to other services, leaving Prabhupada’s request aside. Finally, after Prabhupada uttered the request for a second and then a third time, Bhakti Tirtha opened the door, and a multitude of African people came running through. From this dream, he deduced that Srila Prabhupada wanted him to go to Africa, and so, without any particular inclination toward that part of the world and in the midst of a successful project in Washington, he left, suddenly, and with little planning.

In the end, his African venture was immensely successful. His accomplishments in Africa, and elsewhere, are too many and too vast to describe in detail here. In Africa, he opened and oversaw two farm communities and more than twenty temples across six countries. In addition, he maintained two public schools and worked at a grassroots level to enhance the spiritual lives of people throughout the continent, particularly in West Africa.

Among his most prominent accomplishments in America is perhaps his founding, in 1988, of the Institute for Applied Spiritual Technology (IFAST), dedicated to presenting Krsna consciousness to New Age spiritual seekers around the world. One of the aims of the Institute was to establish self-sufficient farm communities, and to that end he rejuvenated ISKCON's Gita-nagari project in Port Royal, Pennsylvania. With this project, the Swami found an attentive audience among professionals as well--high-powered doctors, lawyers, and others saw truth in his message.

A few highlights of his illustrious career:

Soon after taking sannyasa, he went to Jagannatha Puri and, although Westerners are not allowed in the temple, managed to get in to see the beautiful Jagannatha deities.
He met Mohammed Ali in 1981 and became one of his spiritual advisors.
He became a member of ISKCON's governing body in 1982 and an initiating spiritual master in 1985.
He went to Africa, where Pusta Krsna Dasa, Brahmananda Dasa, and others were preaching, and opened it up in an unprecedented way. He stayed there, on and off, for sixteen years, meeting and working with the country’s most distinguished dignitaries, celebrities, and leaders, including Nobel Peace Prize laureate Nelson Mandela.
In 1990 he was honored by being given the position of a high chief in Warri, Nigeria, in recognition of his outstanding work in Africa. He was widely accepted as an authentic religious leader throughout the African subcontinent.
He has sixteen books in print and three more ready for press. His international book team consists of translators working on the following languaged: German, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Macedonian, Croatian, Russian, Hebrew, Slovenian, Balinese, and Italian. Many of the books have already been printed in these languages, and a few are still in the process of being translated.
As he became something of a well-known international spiritual leader, with numerous college lectures, TV and radio talk shows, and inter-religious conferences lined up for years to come, the ravages of time manifested in an unexpected way, changing his plans forever.
Die Before You Die

Bhakti Tirtha Swami was diagnosed with a stage-four melanoma on his left foot. Ten years before, he had been told of a suspicious lump there. But it was benign, and removal would mean losing the use of his foot entirely. In a later attempt to remove it, doctors found that it was malignant. A diagnosis of diabetes limited the medical options. At first, he tried natural cures, which showed some promise but ultimately helped little.

In August 2004, his specialist advised him of the need for chemotherapy, immediate amputation of the foot, and the removal of affected lymph nodes. He conceded, but when only minimal success was reported, he prepared to leave this world. Bhakti Tirtha Swami saw in this an opportunity: “Krishna is allowing me to develop more purity, more potency to stage a change; he is allowing me to help others as well as myself to focus in a deeper way; we have to be ready to go the extra mile for the devotees.”

Actually, the illness did not come as a surprise to him. He had long prayed to take on the karmic debts of others, to suffer so that others might be released from suffering. He had prayed:

"Dear Lord,
Whatever we need to be better servants for Srila Prabhupada’s mission, let it happen or come to us. Whatever we need to have taken away to become pure in Srila Prabhupada’s service, let it be taken away.
He wrote that he was willing to die for the misdeeds of others, and that in dying he would somehow bring his friends and Godbrothers closer together. This is in fact what happened. According to Bhakti Caru Swami, another ISKCON leader and a friend who had been in close contact with him at the end, “Maharaja [Bhakti Tirtha Swami] emphasized that the sufferings of so many devotees had become too much for him to bear. He was praying very intensely to Srila Prabhupada that he wanted to become purified, become a better disciple, and help those who are struggling, at any cost.”

Radhanatha Swami, an ISKCON leader and one Bhakti Tirtha Swami's dearest friends, was constantly by his side for the last couple of months as his main caregiver. Others also stayed with Bhakti Tirtha Swami, including disciples who were physicians. Friends and well-wishers poured in, showing support, offering prayers, seeking blessings. Devotees from around the world resolved longstanding differences in his name.

As the last few weeks emerged, his consciousness was more and more absorbed in Krsna and he went into solitary meditation, allowing only those who spoke about Krsna to be with him. By the time of his departure his absorption was total. He listened only to Krsna's Vrndavana pastimes and viewed only a beautiful painting of Krsna and one of Prabhupada, in front of his bed. As he passed away, he was clasping a salagrama deity, and another one was placed on his head. He was sprayed with sacred Radha-kunda water, and a tulasi leaf was placed on his tongue. Truly, he left this world as he had lived: as an exemplary devotee.

When his rich, productive life was reaching its close, he and I began signing our letters to each other with the Sanskrit words aham tvam prinami: “I love you.” This gesture signified our deep appreciation for each other’s work. He had many times expressed his high regard for my books, and he knew well how much I relished his. But there was more. He and I felt like kindred spirits in yet another way. We both took it as our service to stretch the envelope, as it were, to show devotees, through word and deed, that there are many approaches to Krsna consciousness, that there is more than one way to serve the Lord. Still further, the new way of signing our letters showed the kind of person he was, always ready to express his love for other devotees. I love you, too, Bhakti Tirtha Swami, and you will always be in my heart.

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/28/2005 03:48 AM PST

quote from bhaktin rebecca

"So it comes down to which side you have more faith in for whatever reason, good or bad. It is no longer a question of evidence, if such evidence is no longer available. You cannot "prove" such an issue either way. You can only go on your opinion due to your chosen faith. "

response- good points rebbeca, your letter was nice, thank you. I have sent another article in which hopefully should conclude my side of all this. They want to change my opinion and i want to change theirs. but there are 2 distinct differences between the 2 opinions, one(theirs) is offensive and mine is just defending my guru which is my duty.

The new BTG is out, anyone who is interested in another angle on bts can see the article and its pictures for free on www.btswami.com

Posted by Ragaputra dasa @ 10/25/2005 08:48 AM PST

He convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

Posted by Nitya Siddha dasa @ 10/25/2005 07:09 AM PST

Hari dasa,what more evidence do you want?Are Mahavegavati's articles on VNN not enough?When considering wether someone is telling the truth or not one has to use a process of logical deduction and try to weigh up the facts by analyizing the pro's and the con's of what the person has to gain from either lying or telling the truth.When looking at Mahavegavati's articles on VNN one can draw 2 conclusions.1.That she is telling the truth and 2.That she is lying.If she is lying what does she have to gain?and why would she lie?I can see no good reason why she would have a grudge against BTS other than the fact that what she has said is a factual account of what happened to her.It does not make any sense that she would lie about such things since she had nothing to gain from lying.In effect if she was lying she would have put her own spiritual life on the line by committing a Vaishnava aparada,and why would she do that for no good reason?Therefore by the process of logical deduction one can conclude that it is more likely that she is telling the truth.Also there are other witness statements(some of them on this blog)about BTS's improprieties.This is called in law corraborative evidence and although there may be no actual physical evidence hypothetically speaking,still because there are other witness's corrobarating the original witness statement,then this adds weight to a powerful testamomy and makes it more likely that the original witness statement is true.Also the other witness testamonies are coming from independant scources,making it less likely that there was any conspiricy between the witness's.Looking at all the facts and by logical deduction one can only conclude that it is most likely that Mahavegavati is telling the truth.I think that you are in a minority not being able to accept that your whiter than white unrealistic conception of your so called "Guru" could be wrong.If you go through life with these delusions in your mind you will find it very difficult to progress and succeed in your goals to become a more advanced devotee.These misconceptions are certainly an impediment to you and they may also be referred to as Anartha's or material attachments,unwanted things.Maya means illusion or "That which is not"certainly Maya is very powerful and can take many forms including deluding the minds of neophyte devotees.These anarthas in the form of delusions must be removed from the path of a devotee before he can make further advancement in spiritual life.One should not become hypnotised by a personality in Iskcon just because he is wearing silk saffron robes and is carrying a stick covered in saffron cloth with a few fancy titles after his name.Look beyond the viel Hari-dasa,look and listen and you will learn,you need to do this so that you can become enlightened this will increase your intelligence and Knowledge and make you a better devotee instead of just being a fool.

Your servant,
Nitya Siddha dasa (UK)

Posted by Bhaktin Rebecca @ 10/25/2005 05:39 AM PST

Dear Hari das,

Does the GBC do all your thinking for you? We are not supposed to abandon our intelligence. What if the GBC chooses to never issue an official statement about something - does it cease to exist? And what if all evidence of an incedent is lost to time? Did the event never occur? It occured, but what you believe about it will be based on hearsay- of one side or the other.

So it comes down to which side you have more faith in for whatever reason, good or bad. It is no longer a question of evidence, if such evidence is no longer available. You cannot "prove" such an issue either way. You can only go on your opinion due to your chosen faith.

Trying to convince people on the basis of the words of the GBC and "senior devotees" when a good part of your audience may not necessarily accept them as authorities is essentially like arguing with a false premise. You defeat yourself before you begin. If you are really interested in convincing your audience here, then you must have some understanding of them and the rules by which they will be convinced. You have one set of rules, but they may follow another. Effective writing demands taking your audience into consideration.

If you like running in circles, then by all means, continue as you are doing. But if your goal is to actually get somewhere with this discussion, then you may want to adjust your approach. It is also helpful to consider while writing what arguements to your statements will be brought up by your opponent. This allows one to be more effective as well.

Just a bit of writing advice, as I am concerned that you must be getting a rather troublesome headache what with your apparent beating your head into a brick wall. Find a more appropriate approach, or give up for real. Don't torture yourself - that is also maya.

y/s Bhaktin Rebecca

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/25/2005 03:53 AM PST

quote from pandu

"Since you knew Bhakti Tirtha so well, maybe you can tell me what he was thinking while rolling out the red carpet for this unrepentant child molester to strut his stuff at my place for worshipping Sri Krishna.

Was it that in spite of his talk, he really just didn’t care about kids or ISKCON’s reputation as a haven for child abuse? Did he think himself so great that by his blessing everything would be alright? What was it? I’ve been waiting for a good answer to this question, but his disciples don’t want to talk about it.
It looked and continues to look to me like his claim to be a bona fide guru is simply a fraud."

response- what have the gbc said about this? i was not there, nor are any details coming from anywhere apart from you, you obviously have strong issues and are angry so how can i trust that your facts are 100% accurate?
what has your guru said about this?

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/25/2005 03:48 AM PST

there is no conclusive evidence from maha vegavatis writings

my proposal is that if you all are so concerned with issues regarding bts and his conduct especially in regards to having vpandit at gita nagari that you communicate with the gbc.

nor do i see direct evidence that BTS fell down sexually with anyone-it is hearsay, provide evidence please before making such accusations.

i am interested only in evidence and so will the gbc be, unless you can provide such then it is just rumours as i have said countless times already.

Posted by Nitya Siddha dasa @ 10/24/2005 10:47 AM PST

I have just read Mahavegavati's VNN articles about BTS's "African adventures"
Firstly it appears to me that Mahavegavati dasi is a totally sincere devotee and an early disciple of Srila Prabhupada,so why should anyone doubt her honesty?Actually I think she has been very brave in revealing these experiences and has opened to the reader what goes in in the real lives of the "Gurus" behind the daily charade in Iskcon temples.
So was BTS "A great exalted devotee"or just an imposter who misused his power and posistion to extort laxmi from his disciples by lying and cheating and then indulged in his sexual fantasies when he felt like it?Is Mahavegavati a Liar,I don't think so.But sadly there have been and continue to be too many cover ups for comfort.And while the followers of these so called "Gurus"are illusioned into thinking they are great exalted devotees or are too afraid to speak the truth we will always be left to investigate the facts for ourselves until it all comes out of the closet.You decide......

Your servant

Nitya Siddha dasa

Posted by Pandu das @ 10/24/2005 08:38 AM PST

Hari das,

Glad you decided to stay. It’s brave of you to venture out of the strictly-censored “BTSwami list.” Personally I don’t care about space ships or aliens, and I've never been to Africa. I didn’t read his books, and I don’t care to. I had no special interest in Bhakti Tirtha until 2005, when his poor choice of friends directly impacted my life and forced me to wake up to some serious questions about him and about ISKCON.

It seems that you would like us believe that all of BTS’ controversial activities were simply preaching tools, which we’re too neophyte or offensive to understand. Was his giving of special honors to Vakresvara Pandit also a preaching tool? It looked to me like a clear message that child abuse is A-OK in ISKCON, at least for anyone with “Swami” friends..

Vakresvara was found by the CPO of having been guilty of several instances of child molestation (“AGGRAVATED SEXUAL ASSAULT” and “INDECENCY WITH A MINOR,” according to the Texas criminal statutes.), and that guilt was confirmed on appeal. (Open Letter to the ISKCON's CPO ) When BTS invited Vakresvara to Gita-nagari, without even discussing the issue with the community, Vakresvara had been officially banned from ISKCON as a stipulated penalty for failure to apologize and pay restitution. In addition, Vakresvara has obviously shown himself as a liar.

...i met BTS in 1996, however, i spent a long time serving him and hearing from him and others about him. I did not take the initiation until 2003 so that is 7 years of observation on both sides.

Since you knew Bhakti Tirtha so well, maybe you can tell me what he was thinking while rolling out the red carpet for this unrepentant child molester to strut his stuff at my place for worshipping Sri Krishna.

Was it that in spite of his talk, he really just didn’t care about kids or ISKCON’s reputation as a haven for child abuse? Did he think himself so great that by his blessing everything would be alright? What was it? I’ve been waiting for a good answer to this question, but his disciples don’t want to talk about it.

It looked and continues to look to me like his claim to be a bona fide guru is simply a fraud.

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/24/2005 02:46 AM PST

how many times do i have to tell you? the book Spiritual warrior 1 was a purely preaching tool, not necesarrily meant for iskconites or gaudiya vaisnavas.
BTS did a large part of his preaching outside of the boundaries of vaisnavism to non devotees and as such he got people to join iskcon.
if you actually read the book in question then you would see that the essence was to help people understand more than lost continents of mu and the like.
50+ people who read this book became his disciples and are in iskcon doing valuable service.
At first many of BTS writings were aimed at non devotees, but later we can see he wrote books for iskcon which were very well received.

In regards to this mataji claiming that BTS was intimatly involved with Hladini dasi- where is your evidence?

Actually, please provide evidence to any of the claims of mahavegavati and any other suspicions you guys may have-so far no evidence has been presented-just simply rumours.

provide evidence then you will be taken seriously, if you cannot then it is speculation on your part. The written word cannot provide truth unless it is based on factual evidence and i have requested this many many times

and regarding this:

"Why did you accept Bhakti Tirtha as your guru in the first place? The process is that first the prosepective disciple is supposed to find as much information as possible about the guru. Then after carefully judging that guru as being fit or unfit, then you are supposed to make the decision to accept or reject."

i first joined iskcon in 91, i met BTS in 1996, however, i spent a long time serving him and hearing from him and others about him. I did not take the initiation until 2003 so that is 7 years of observation on both sides.
Why did i choose him, because i saw how much others trusted him due to the fact that he gave so much time and actually helped others in their spiritual life and i saw how intensly engaged in Prabhupadas service he actually was- he would only sleep like 5 hours and eat once a day. His rounds were there without fail, i know this because i was chanting with him.

Whatever you have heard, get evidence first before accepting as truth. It is a known fact that many are jealous so how are their statements to be taken as truthful?

Posted by Narada das @ 10/23/2005 03:21 PM PST

Don't feel too bad, Hari das. Gopal Krishna Goswami's disciples will soon be out on the front lines with you. The Swami's wife just blogged a preview to her new, tell-all book:

http://writingknight.blogspot.com/2005/10/final-insult-excerpt-from-my.html

Posted by ameyatma das at pamho.net @ 10/23/2005 09:41 AM PST

siddhanta.com states that this Rocana Prabhu is "very, very angry", and he may have expressed anger in other writings, I don't know, I have not seen the website referred to. But, when I read this article I did not perceive great anger, I saw a genuine and serious concern being expressed in a very dignified and intelligent manor. A concern that I also share.

The last time I personally saw BTS was in Alachua, ~ 4-5 yrs ago. He was lead kirtan and danced. He was the same devotee I knew many years ago, Blissfully absorbed in dancing and singing.

I found siddhanta.com's article, and his reference to SB, his example of Lord Brahma to be both respectable and 'right-on'. BTS was a great Vaishnav, yet being a great Vaishnav does not mean, automatically, that he was pure and fully above wrong doing. The GBC Body's duty is to uphold the high standards that Srila Prabhupad set. Those standards extend from personal and community hygiene to the preservation of the teachings SP gave. Once in Mayapur on a morning walk, SP peeked inside a latrine and found it not clean to his standard. SP angrily demanded from Jayatirtha, who happened to have been the closest GBC walking with him, why the latrine was not clean. JT tried to argue that he was not the local GBC man, that it was not his responsibility, SP angrily taught JT - and the whole GBC - that was not the case. All GBC men, SP taught, were responsible for the standards in All of ISKCON, regardless the defect is in 'their' zone or not. It is the duty of each and every GBC man to take action when he sees a defect in any of the standards SP set.

Lets say, for sake of argument, that it was not BTS who wrote the outlandish things that he wrote. Lets say it was one of he many so-called gurus of the
1960's-70's. The preachers of ISKCON would have a field day - we would make a laughing stock of that so-called guru. We would expose such none-sense and would make it a major point in our preaching when confronting his followers. That should be totally indisputable. In LA in the mid 70's this bogi-yogi guru-maharaji had come to Culver City advertising that all those who paid the fee to come see his lecture that night, he would show each and every one the brahma-joyti. So, during his lecture he asked all to close their eyes and place a finger on their eyes and apply pressure until they saw light and colors. The in-rush of blood to the eye ball, causing the sensory nerves to produce a flash of color to the brain, - such was his utter non-sense. SP had commented that this bogus teacher should be SHOT. SP actually commented like this, that he should be shot. Why? Because he was misleading so many with his complete and utter non-sense.

Mother ships from mu is complete and utter non-sense. It has NO PLACE within SP's ISKCON, there is no need of it to try and convince lost souls in this world to take up our philosophy.

The GBC was and remains in complete dereliction of their duty for not having stood up and spoke out against this and similar non-sense.

Ys ameyatma das

Posted by Kaviraj Das @ 10/23/2005 09:17 AM PST

I have read Rocana's article about BTS and his followers and find that Rocana has presented sound and scripturally supported logic and argument. These followers, who have scurried up to the microphone to defend BTS are simply mental masturbators perhaps of the dangerous sort that have NOT studied the works of Swami Srila A.C.Bhaktivedanta. We are now entering the phase of Kaliyuga where false gurus will perhaps attempt to cast aside the tenets of the Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya Sampradaya. Caveat Emptor !

Posted by Krishna-kirti's (HDG) blog @ 10/23/2005 06:31 AM PST

If the Mothership from Mu stays parked in Srila Prabhupada's house, some devotees will have to leave...

Read more here:

http://www.siddhanta.com/2005/10/iskcon_gandhi_a.html

Posted by shiva das @ 10/22/2005 04:14 PM PST

Hari Das you wrote:

"please tell me how it is okay for rocana to do what you have accused me of? his articles in this thread are FULL of personal comments about BTS. We will find when someone starts something like praghosa and rocana have that many revelations will come regarding finger pointers-i have first hand knowledge that both these devotees are not seen as active or favourable to iskcon, nor have they always followed strictly. Maybe they should be honest about where they are at instead of trying to find faults with persons who have more popularity and influence and indeed spiritual potency and sincerity"

That type of debating technique is called a logical fallacy. This is a definition of logical fallacy from http://www.adamsmith.org/logicalfallacies/:

Any trick of logic or language which allows a statement or a claim to be passed off as something it is not, has an admission card to the enclosure reserved for fallacies. Very often it is the case that what appears to be a supporting argument for a particular contention does not support it at all. Sometimes it might be a deduction drawn from evidence which does not sustain it.

Many of the fallacies are committed by people genuinely ignorant of logical reasoning, the nature of evidence, or what counts as relevant material. Others, however, might be committed by persons bent on deception. If there is insufficient force behind the argument and the evidence, fallacies can add enough weight to carry them through.

The most used and most famous logical fallacy is the one you used in the above, it is called:

argumentum ad hominem .

Definition:

The person presenting an argument is attacked instead of the argument itself. This takes many forms. For example, the person's character, nationality or religion may be attacked. Alternatively, it may be pointed out that a person stands to gain from a favourable outcome. Or, finally, a person may be
attacked by association, or by the company he keeps.

There are three major forms of Attacking the Person:

(1) ad hominem (abusive): instead of attacking an assertion, the argument attacks the person who made the assertion.

(2) ad hominem (circumstantial): instead of attacking an assertion the author points to the relationship between the person making the assertion and the person's circumstances.

(3) ad hominem (tu quoque): this form of attack on the person notes that a person does not practise what he preaches.

Then you wrote:

it dissapoints me too because the level of aparadha against my guru has been very high with very serious accusations that for the most part have no foundation apart from gossip sources found on rtvik sites

Have you read any of this?

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET9905/ET24-3941.html

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0002/ET03-5397.html

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0002/ET07-5423.html

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0002/ET08-5432.html

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0002/ET10-5445.html

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0002/ET15-5475.html

Also this is a link to a bunch of articles by the same author as the above, go through them from top to bottom.

http://www.vnn.org/authors/mahavegavati.html

Then you wrote:

maybe your words should also be aimed at those such as rocana, praghosa, radha krsna, pandu and your goodself. For the high level of criticism you are all aiming at BTS shows your very own kanistha mentality, bear that in mind

You don't seem to understand the difference between ordinary devotees who are not taking disciples and promoting themselves as uttama adhikaris, who are not promoting the surrendering of as many people as they can possibly convince to become their willing slaves in the name of "going back to Godhead"; from devotees who do that.

If Rocana, or Praghosa, or myself, or anyone else has a disciple making machine all set up in order to either "make devotees" surrender to the "pure devotee who can take you back to Godhead because of his mystical potency", then by that choice of theirs to present themselves as capable spiritual masters who seek to convince you that you should surrender your life and soul to them, then yes, they should be subjected to the same scrutiny that they subject Bhakti Tirtha or any other supposed bona fide spiritual master who seeks a following of fully surrendered people.

Yes there is and should be a double standard. If someone represents himself as a person who everyone should surrender to, then that person is subject to scrutiny and critical analysis of their personal behavior that ordinary devotees should not be subjected to.

You may not like that, but that's the way they say how it goes.

Then you wrote:

again aim those words at those above mentioned also. i do not see evidence that any of you are at nama bhasa. when blaspheming devotees who have dedicated their lives to the propagation of the holy name/1st offense there is no case of tangible advancement. You all have said some very harsh things about BTS most of which has no foundation so you all have commited this offense-why do you not admit to this, your articles and writings are full of this kind of nonsense and rumours.

Here's the rub my fren, the actual sastric process tells us that we should carefully scrutinize anyone who claims to be a spiritual master in order to see if that person is truly what he claims to be. What has been going on here you characterize as offensive sniping, yet the fact is there has been really nothing but carefully thought out critical analysis of the qualifications of Bhakti Tirtha as being a person capable of "bringing you back to Godhead". Is he what he claimed to be?

Bhakti Tirtha claimed to be a person qualified to direct YOUR LIFE, and the lives of as many people as could gather to surrender to him. He claimed that he was a living channel of service to God. He claimed that by serving him you will be serving God.

Yet you seem to want there to be no critical analysis to see if in fact he warrants that kind of respect. You claim that he chanted 16 rounds, followed 4 regulative principles, was a member in good standing in Iskcon, as proof of his spiritual position. Yet the fact is you don't know if he actually followed those standards and it really doesn't matter anyways. Why? Tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of devotees chant 16 rounds and follow 4 regulative principles. What does that have to do with anything?

Should all of them also be treated like divine spiritual masters capable of taking complete and utter control over peoples lives? Should they all be uncritically accepted as being worthy of our total surrender and total devotion?

Then you wrote:

yes, we all should know and APPLY THIS, but how am i supposed to feel about Prabhupada disciples who are so publicly doing this in regards to my own guru??? should i just accept it-i do not think so somehow!

Why did you accept Bhakti Tirtha as your guru in the first place? The process is that first the prosepective disciple is supposed to find as much information as possible about the guru. Then after carefully judging that guru as being fit or unfit, then you are supposed to make the decision to accept or reject.

Did you go through that process? Did you search out for all the information that you could find about your guru before being initiated? Or did you receive all of your info from his followers and fellow travellers in positions of authority in Iskcon?

So what we are providing now is what should have been provided to any of his prospective disciples while he was still around, and in fact most of these critiques have been around for years. But due to people like you who wish to hide any critical analysis, who wish to impede the sastrically defined process of seeking out knowledge of the character and qualifications of a supposed guru, the result was that many if not most of his prospective disciples were not exposed to these things.

Then you wrote:

this is exactly what rocana, praghosa, radha krsna etc.. are doing to BTS-again throw that at them, after all BTS has left his body, his disciples are feeling the loss and public forums like this one should bear this in mind and control their tongues as mentioned in 1st verse and purport of upadesamrta

Why should people not have all of the information available about someone who claims to be a divine messenger of God? Why do you object to hearing both sides of the story? Again; Rocana, Praghosa, etc, do not have a media and social organization set up solely to convince people to fully surrender their lives over to their autocratic control. Bhakti Tirtha did and does. As do others. If you publicly claim to be a person worthy of being fully surrenderd to in body, mind, and soul, then you put yourself in a position where your qualifications are open to scrutiny. Your spiritual status becomes a public matter when you use an institution which you are a member of to promote yourself as a person worthy of having slave like followers in the name of God.

If Bhakti Tirtha or anyone else wanted to be free from critical analysis due to their assuming the position of Guru in the Gaudiya parampara, then they should work outside of any current Gaudiya organization. If they start their own personal organization where they are not dependent on the sacrifice of others for their ascendency, then their qualifications wouldn't be such a serious matter.

The past acaryas and countless vaisnavas have sacrificed their lives and built the current Gaudiya organizations. Why should someone waltz in and be given Godlike status by the fiat of a handful of individuals who have in some way or another gained positions of influence with those Gaudiya organizations?

If someone in Iskcon claims to be qualified to be accepted as worthy of surrendering to, then they no longer enjoy the anonymity of the common vaisnava. If they want to use the sacrifice of others for the purpose of having disciples serve them, then they have put themselves under public scrutiny by their own choice of claiming God like status.

yes, i think the word demon can definatly apply to those that wish to discredit a guru who is in good standing who has recently left.

What is a guru to you? Being in "good standing" with Iskcon leadership should be the determining factor of a persons spiritual standing?

In fact you have put forward that thesis previously:

From the vantage point of a menial servant I have had chance to study many senior devotees, hear from them and come to conclusions that many may not be able to. I have also had the association of many Prabhupada disciples who "have no position" and they fall into 2 categories:

1) the stalwarts- those who are still working damned hard in ISKCON and overlook the bad while trying to promote the good and working under intense conditions

2) the whiners- those who have so many issues that their sadhana is visibly poor thereby creating a bad example for others. Not only are they constantly criticising their godfamily, they are making matters worse by engaging in politics.

In your dialectical assessment you have defined the vaisnava community into 2 distinct groups. Those that uncomplainingly serve and are devoted to Iskcon i.e the good guys, and everyone else i.e the bad guys.

The bad guys are bad because they do not accept the status quo handed down to them by Iskcon authorities. Forget about details, this is black or white, good or bad. Turn off your mind and float downstream, be a good little stepford wife, keep your eyes on your beadbag and let the leaders run your life and Iskcon. Any other attitude is wrong.

From The Simpsons:

At the agricultural compound, the family harvest lima beans.

Homer: See Marge, our lives are so much better now!

[The Movementarian guy drives past with a megaphone.)

Glen: You two, stop talking and resume the lima bean harvest!

Homer: [sighs with affection] So much better.

-----------------------------------
For the first time, the forbidden barn opens, and a Rolls Royce exits. The Leader's presence is felt!

[The Leader's car blows dust all over Moe and Sideshow Mel.]

Moe: I'm covered in the dust of the leader! He favours me!

Sideshow Mel: I am even dustier! Dustier than thou!

[The Leader's car goes through some sloppy mud and Homer gets covered.]

Moe: [Bitter] Oh, look who the new pet is!

Homer: [Near tears] I've never been so happy!

-----------------------------------
Meanwhile, class is being taught... the Movementarian way.

Mrs. Krabappel: And who can tell me where thunder and lightning come from?...Yes, Bart?

Bart: The Leader, ma'am.

Mrs. Krabappel: Very good, Bart! And who invented Morse Code?

Bart: Oh, I should know this one... the.. the Leader?

Mrs. Krabappel: Ah, correct again!

-----------------------------------
Lisa can't take it anymore. She kicks her desk down, but then contemplates whether or not it's right to rebel -- after all, it could affect her grades. Meanwhile, the younger kids are entertained by Barney the Dinosaur, who apparently is under the Leader's influence, too.

Homer and Marge eat dinner.

Homer: These lima beans are even better than the ones we had for breakfast and lunch! Oh! A lima bean that looks just like the Leader! I'll put it with the others.

-----------------------------------
Groundskeeper Willie starts Homer's deprogramming:

Groundskeeper Willie: Alright, what's so fine and great about your fancy pants leader?

Homer: The Leader knows all and sees all!

Groundskeeper Willie: Ooh.. well that is impressive!

Homer: And he's going to take us to a wonderful new planet!

Groundskeeper Willie: Oh! This Leader, he sounds like a grand fella!

Marge: Willie, I'm not sure we're making any headway here.

Groundskeeper Willie: Would you shut up, woman! He's talking about my leader!

Posted by Nitya Siddha dasa @ 10/22/2005 12:52 PM PST

Hari dasa you have misunderstood the points that I was making in my posting.First of all it is not an offence to point out a mistake in someones execution of devotional service.Providing ones instuction is done in a constructive way for the benefit and education of others then there is no fault in that.I believe that there were a number of issues concerning Bhakti Tirtha swami's status and relationship with his disciples and godbrothers that needed to be dicussed in order to dispel the illusions that have developed in the minds of his disciples about his posistion.Otherwise we would be creating a society full of blind fanatics that are more concerned with personality cult style worship than a mature understanding of vedic Shastras and worship of the Sampradaya Arcarya.No one has committed an offence against BTS,we can all appreciate that he did some good service for Prabhupada and Krishna and we respect him for that.Instead of trying to understand these points your attitude is aggressive and defensive,but why are you angry and what is it you are trying to defend?What is the problem with accepting the truth and dealing with reality instead of believing a delusion?The points that Rocana,Pragosha and Radha Krishna Prabhu's have made in thier articles are entirely valid and presented in an intellectually enlightening manner for the benefit of the reader,so what is the difficulty in accepting that?Your attitude is not in keeping with that of a Vaishnava,you lack humility and the ability to open your mind to a deeper understanding of Spiritual life.As we have seen in the recent Sun Poll it appears that a majority of the Vaishnava community do not agree with you and that it is also widely acknowledged that there have been many mistakes regarding Diksa initiations in Iskcon and most devotees are broad minded enough to accept this truth.It is an offence to critisise a devotee for any past transgressions if (a)It is coming from a younger or junior disciple and (b)If it has no philosophical value and is unhelpful and hurtful or damaging to that individual.That is offensive,because the mentality that it is aimed with is personal and aggressive without regard or sensitivity for anothers feelings.This is an Aparadha.What has been discussed amongst our senior Godbrothers about the transgressions of BTS and others like him has been done without offence and for the benefit of dispelling delusions and revealing the truth.That is not an offence.Srila Prabhupada would sometimes critisise His godbrothers because there were obvious conflicts with his and Iskcon's interests,because of thier many misconceptions and also to protect his disciples from being polluted by them.This was not an offence but calling a spade a spade as Srila Prabhupada would sometimes say.I believe that Rocana Prabhu and others are doing the same with regards to some of Iskcon's present day Hierarchy for the same purpose.
In contrast I would say that your attitude is offensive,you are angry and unsubmissive,both qualities that will destroy you spiritually and as a human being.I do not believe that you can make any advancement in spiritual life with this kind of attitude.Your rantings are both disturbing and disturbed and bordering on the unintelligable.Your public airings of your grievances are making you look a fool amongst the worldwide vaishnava community and I would suggest that you need to do some serious soul searching before going any further with your belligerant blurtings on this forum.They are pointless and make the reader feel very uneasy with you.Take that as a bit of friendly advice.

Your servant,

Nitya Siddha dasa

Posted by loka @ 10/22/2005 05:37 AM PST

i not leave because i angry with shrila krishnapada just i know he is not real guru so i leave and go find real guru. aslo i see shrila krishnapada make many politic so this not is guru.

Posted by loka @ 10/22/2005 05:34 AM PST

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/22/2005 04:09 AM PST

provide evidence when making such a crazy claim please

no crazy claim. our guru sexing harishikesha swami. she was bhaktipada sanyassi mataji in africa. shrila krishnapada before my guru but i leave becuase what i know and go to real guru.

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/22/2005 04:09 AM PST

Posted by loka @ 10/21/2005 08:37 AM PST

only this comment my no waste time any more.

in africa shrila krishnapada's disciple i was. i see his many bad activitys. i sometime after leave. he break sex priciple and worse. he was not real guru by activty.

response- provide evidence when making such a crazy claim please

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/22/2005 04:07 AM PST

first let me respond to nitya siddha dasa:

Nityasiddha-"Once again Hari dasa is displaying his immaturity and offensive mentality and is now resorting to personal comments about a devotees past."

response- "please tell me how it is okay for rocana to do what you have accused me of? his articles in this thread are FULL of personal comments about BTS. We will find when someone starts something like praghosa and rocana have that many revelations will come regarding finger pointers-i have first hand knowledge that both these devotees are not seen as active or favourable to iskcon, nor have they always followed strictly. Maybe they should be honest about where they are at instead of trying to find faults with persons who have more popularity and influence and indeed spiritual potency and sincerity"

NSiddha-"Frankly this disappionts me since his remarks have no philosophical value and are therefore irrelevant."

response- it dissapoints me too because the level of aparadha against my guru has been very high with very serious accusations that for the most part have no foundation apart from gossip sources found on rtvik sites

NSiddha-"What a devotee has done in his past,wether it be in this life or the past life cannot be spoken of by a neophyte devotee who has no qualification to critisize."

response- "maybe your words should also be aimed at those such as rocana, praghosa, radha krsna, pandu and your goodself. For the high level of criticism you are all aiming at BTS shows your very own kanistha mentality, bear that in mind"

Nsiddha-"A neophyte devotee whilst in the delicate early stages of Nama Bhasya and Nama Aparadha should never critisize a senior Godbrother or the spiritual master."

response- again aim those words at those above mentioned also. i do not see evidence that any of you are at nama bhasa. when blaspheming devotees who have dedicated their lives to the propagation of the holy name/1st offense there is no case of tangible advancement. You all have said some very harsh things about BTS most of which has no foundation so you all have commited this offense-why do you not admit to this, your articles and writings are full of this kind of nonsense and rumours.

NISdhha-"This is called the "mad elephant offense"that is while a devotee is trying to carefully cultivate the delicate creeper of devotion he like a mad elephant tramples through the garden and ruins the creeper before it has a chance to grow."

response- yes, we all should know and APPLY THIS, but how am i supposed to feel about Prabhupada disciples who are so publicly doing this in regards to my own guru??? should i just accept it-i do not think so somehow!

Nsiddha-"A devotee may have done so many things in his past and lets be honest we all have,but it is very unsavoury and distasteful for another devotee to attack his Godbrother by throwing his past in his face.

response- this is exactly what rocana, praghosa, radha krsna etc.. are doing to BTS-again throw that at them, after all BTS has left his body, his disciples are feeling the loss and public forums like this one should bear this in mind and control their tongues as mentioned in 1st verse and purport of upadesamrta...

NSiddha-"In this regard Srila Prabhupada once said,that if a devotee critisises another devotee for his past before he became a devotee then he is to be considered a demon."

response- yes, i think the word demon can definatly apply to those that wish to discredit a guru who is in good standing who has recently left.

Nsiddha-"Also Srila Prabhupada often used the expression,"When you look at the moon you dont see the craters"If a devotee is engaged in service to the Supreme Lord even though it may not be perfect he should be given all respect and considered to be saintly.It has also been said that when a devotee visits the temple of the Lord to offer Him sincere worship,he does not see the past sins of his devotee,only that he is coming to offer the Lord his respect and worship and when he claps his hands in front of the Diety all the sins of his past life fly away."

response- okay so maybe the mentioned devotees should bear this sastric evidence in mind while thinking about BTS and others they criticise

Nsiddha-"To Hari-dasa and others like him,please don't let your immaturity be your worst enemy and do not allow this forum to degenerate into a meaningless mud slinging excersise and blindly commit many apharadas.Stick to facts and philosophy,dispell illusions about anything you don't agree with in a constructive and polite manner for the education of other devotees so that we can all learn from it.But don't misuse this website and forum to air your personal grievances,that is not Vaishnava."

response- again tell this to rocana and his friends, they started this and it is highly offensive, i agree with many of your points here and hope that you understand that i am a disciple of BTS and I know him very well. His past doesnt bother me, i knew him since 1996 and my experiences with him were very positive and know many that appreciate what he has done. Those mentioned should keep their mouths shut and focus on their own stagnant KC and maybe try to be of positive input in iskcon by being good examples themselves and participating in iskcon more

Lakshmis piece..



Lakshmi-"Hari dasa, whatever valid points you made up to now in this discussion have been dimmed by your attempt to crab-walk backwards after throwing this cowardly jab."

response- how is it cowardly to present to the audience that those critical of my guru are less than perfect themselves?after all shouldnt the readers know that there may be some motivation to present distorted facts about others in order to hide the real truth about themselves?


Lakshmi-"You keep saying that BTS left his body under very auspicious circumstances, but many others disagree."

response-how is leaving ones body hearing the holy name and holding salagramas and having tulasi and senior devotees such as RNS praying inauspicious? what is there to dissagree about?

lakshmi-" You never respond point for point to their assertions, which only indicates that you have no answers, thus your conclusion is the wrong one."

response-many points made are just plain ridiculous, if you are that concerned paste the points you wish me to specifically reply to and i will do my best to do so. My answer is plain and simple-BTS is my guru and i am his disciple, it is my duty to serve him and i appreciate as do many others the good things he done for iskcon, for those that deny this then i say-look again at his life and achievements carefully and read his later books and then you might have a different impression than the one gained from reading critical postings on websites.

Laksmi-"Who exactly are all these 'senior devotees' who have reviewed BTS's books and concluded they were fine? Please provide names, otherwise your assertion is a puff of smoke."

response- Urmila dd, Ravindra Swarupa, Bhakti Caitanya Swami, Radhanatha Swami, Sacinandana Swami, Bhurijana prabhu, Bhakti Caru Swami. I can send you reviews at some stage if you wish. Maybe if you looked at the books before judging them first you might have a different view. And his books on leadership have been reviewed by leaders in the field such as ken blanchard etc...

Laksmhi-"Please also tell us who all the mysterious 'senior devotees' are who have shared with you the details of Rocana's past. Give us their names, please, and tell us what they allege. Please don't be shy about giving us the details. Over the years, Rocana has often displayed his willingness to publicly acknowledge his mistakes and be honest about his past. You should give him an opportunity to do so now, instead of slinging dung with these nebulous allegations, which you make under the guise of being a 'deferential junior'."

response- over the next while rocana will hear from those that are less than impressed with this website and his treatment of BTS publicly, it is not my position to break confidentiality, but rest assured he is going to hear about it very very soon.

lakshmi-"You also remark that Rocana is happy to now attack BTS because he's not present to defend himself. You should read the Internet archives, prabhu. Rocana has made many statements about BTS in the past along similar lines to the current discussion. BTS, unfortunately, never responded while he was here to do so."

response- maybe BTS had better things to do than correspond with someone who has not done much sacrifice to help iskcon and push prabhupadas movement. He was very busy and used his time wisely in order to help others. Maybe he was disgusted with rocanas attitude and did not see fit to engage in petty debates such as these.

ys
Hari

Rocana
These disciples, represented by Jyotirmaya and Hari dasa, are publicly presenting themselves as trained up, initiated Brahmins. Their exalted diksa guru, Bhakti Tirtha Swami, is in charge of passing on our siddhanta to these individuals. When they open their mouths, we find they are sadly lacking in transcendental knowledge and it’s practical applications, and they are passing on their speculations as truth.

rocana

Posted by Nitya Sidda dasa @ 10/21/2005 04:10 PM PST

Once again Hari dasa is displaying his immaturity and offensive mentality and is now resorting to personal comments about a devotees past.Frankly this disappionts me since his remarks have no philosophical value and are therefore irrelevant.What a devotee has done in his past,wether it be in this life or the past life cannot be spoken of by a neophyte devotee who has no qualification to critisize.A neophyte devotee whilst in the delicate early stages of Nama Bhasya and Nama Aparadha should never critisize a senior Godbrother or the spiritual master.This is called the "mad elephant offense"that is while a devotee is trying to carefully cultivate the delicate creeper of devotion he like a mad elephant tramples through the garden and ruins the creeper before it has a chance to grow.A devotee may have done so many things in his past and lets be honest we all have,but it is very unsavoury and distasteful for another devotee to attack his Godbrother by throwing his past in his face.In this regard Srila Prabhupada once said,that if a devotee critisises another devotee for his past before he became a devotee then he is to be considered a demon.Also Srila Prabhupada often used the expression,"When you look at the moon you dont see the craters"If a devotee is engaged in service to the Supreme Lord even though it may not be perfect he should be given all respect and considered to be saintly.It has also been said that when a devotee visits the temple of the Lord to offer Him sincere worship,he does not see the past sins of his devotee,only that he is coming to offer the Lord his respect and worship and when he claps his hands in front of the Diety all the sins of his past life fly away.To Hari-dasa and others like him,please don't let your immaturity be your worst enemy and do not allow this forum to degenerate into a meaningless mud slinging excersise and blindly commit many apharadas.Stick to facts and philosophy,dispell illusions about anything you don't agree with in a constructive and polite manner for the education of other devotees so that we can all learn from it.But don't misuse this website and forum to air your personal grievances,that is not Vaishnava.

Your Servant,

Nitya Siddha dasa

Posted by Lakshmi @ 10/21/2005 01:11 PM PST

Hari dasa, whatever valid points you made up to now in this discussion have been dimmed by your attempt to crab-walk backwards after throwing this cowardly jab.

You keep saying that BTS left his body under very auspicious circumstances, but many others disagree. You never respond point for point to their assertions, which only indicates that you have no answers, thus your conclusion is the wrong one.

Who exactly are all these 'senior devotees' who have reviewed BTS's books and concluded they were fine? Please provide names, otherwise your assertion is a puff of smoke.

Please also tell us who all the mysterious 'senior devotees' are who have shared with you the details of Rocana's past. Give us their names, please, and tell us what they allege. Please don't be shy about giving us the details. Over the years, Rocana has often displayed his willingness to publicly acknowledge his mistakes and be honest about his past. You should give him an opportunity to do so now, instead of slinging dung with these nebulous allegations, which you make under the guise of being a 'deferential junior'.

You also remark that Rocana is happy to now attack BTS because he's not present to defend himself. You should read the Internet archives, prabhu. Rocana has made many statements about BTS in the past along similar lines to the current discussion. BTS, unfortunately, never responded while he was here to do so.

Posted by loka @ 10/21/2005 08:37 AM PST

only this comment my no waste time any more.

in africa shrila krishnapada's disciple i was. i see his many bad activitys. i sometime after leave. he break sex priciple and worse. he was not real guru by activty.

Posted by Pandu das @ 10/21/2005 05:55 AM PST

Hari das,

If you want to be left out of this discussion, you should've simply said so and that's all. Instead, your continued attacks against Rocana prabhu and others show that you're actually just interested in getting the last word. Rocana and others have the right to respond to you and your latest comments if they so choose, your request to be left out of it notwithstanding. You can't take another swing at people and immediately announce "I'm not playing anymore." That's cheating, or shall I say, "less than Vaishnava."

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/21/2005 03:34 AM PST

in regards to rocana prabhus continued attacks against me and my spiritual master or indeed against anyone who is appreciative of my guru, he wonders why i am not replying.

To be frank, this is not vaisnava behaviour. BTS left his body under very auspicious circumstances and whatever transpired between him and kirtanananda is past tense. Regarding suspicion that he fell down, this is just suspicion based on grievious gossip.

Vaisnavas should respect each other, nor does it behoov junior uninitiated devotees to criticise a senior without just cause or evidence.
Many senior devotees have carefully looked through BTS books including the SW1 and saw no problem with it as it was a preaching tool that made lots of devotees. Judge by the results not the apparent content but seek the essence.

I have spoken to many senior devotees over the past while who assure me that rocana prabhu's past is less rosier than those he criticises. They advise that he be careful when judging others as his conduct now and before is less than vaisnava.

Iskcon does not need polluting with this kind of stuff, nor do i appreciate rocana attacking me so publicly so i humbly request he leave me out of his discussions from now on.

It is easy to argue on the net, not so easy to confront in person. Which is why rocana has no fear criticising BTS now he is no longer physically present to defend himself. Yet when disciples defend BTS rocana does not like that either. He would rather be left undisturbed so he can continue on his blasphemous campaign which is only falling on the ears of the weak, disloyal and offensive.

I beg to be left out of this before he goes to far

hari dasa

Posted by Gadahdar Dasa @ 10/19/2005 02:11 PM PST

Srila Prabhupada says in one of his lectures:

So visnu-bhakto bhaved devah asuras tad-viparyayah. These two classes, how they are ascertained? One who is a devotee of the Supreme Lord Visnu, they are called deva, or demigods, and persons who know Visnu or may not know -- on the whole, they are not devotees of Visnu -- even they are devotee of other demigods, they are called asura. Just like Ravana. Ravana, he was a great devotee of Lord Siva, but he is described as asura, raksasa. Similarly, Hiranyakasipu was a great devotee of Lord Brahma; still, he is accepted as raksasa. So unless one is Vaisnava or devotee of the Lord Visnu, he is asura or raksasa. This is the instruction of the sastra.

See how sharp line is drawn by HDG Srila Prabhupada about demons and devotees.

So what does "lost continent of mu" has to do with Krishna or His Devotees?

Where is Krishna Katha in it?

Don't mix sand with sweet and claim that now sweet tastes better.

Wishing You All Well,
YS - Gadadhar Dasa

Posted by jatayu das @ 10/19/2005 11:06 AM PST

Hare Krishna agtSP,
BTS surely felt like being a spiritual Robin Hood to expose all those injustices imposed to the awfull poverty strikken African continent. It is right, America's and Europe's material prosperity is maintained by the scrupelous exploitation of the African people and Africa's agricultural/mineral resources. But, as Srila Prabhupada pointed out many times, this material world always was/is a place of exploiters and exploited and the solution for a Vaishnava devotee is not to point out mundane outrages injustice but to introduce devotional service to Krishna what will automatically solve all problems. The underlying motivation of BTS's preaching was to point out in his books to analyze/expose the exploiters in this modern world from his point of view and thus he created enemies, even among his own godbrothers.
Prabhupada's preaching was, no, we dont feed starving people, otherwise they have to continue their karma in future - we give them Prasadam only when there's Kirtan going on simultaneously and try to make them devotees of Krishna, then their problems in this world are really solved for ever:

Srila Prabhupada: "...Yes. So here the love propensity is being misplaced in this material world. That should be placed in God. Then the love will be perfection. Just like if you pour water on the leaves of the tree or branches of the tree it is simply waste of time. If you pour water on the root then the effect of pouring water is distributed. Similarly, foodstuff, if you place the foodstuff on your nose, on your eyes or your ears, it is simply wasted. But if you put foodstuff to the mouth in the stomach immediately the energy derived from the foodstuff is distributed throughout the whole body. Similarly, if you love God then your, automatically your love is distributed to everyone. But if you don't love, if you simply love your country... Just like an Englishman, you love your country; German, he loves his country, but there is fight between the English and the Germans because the love is misplaced. But if the Germans or the Englishmen or the Indians they put their love in God there will be no more fighting. Therefore our philosophy is to educate people how to love God. That is real religion. Sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje. That is first-class religion which teaches the follower how to love God..."

Posted by shiva das @ 10/18/2005 02:50 PM PST

Very thoughtfull and incisive article by Radha Krsna Das. Although to be honest there are more stories to be told about Bhakti Tirtha's treatment of female vaisnavas in Africa which I have heard about from those affected by him. Since I don't personally know those devotees I will leave that up to them to speak out on that topic.

Concerning one point brought up by Radha Krsna Das wherein he writes about the misconception that Bhakti Tirtha or in fact any Guru is made to suffer because of their "taking on the karma of their followers".

While this conception does in deed have some kind of verification in Gaudiya siddhanta, it is a concept that is easily misunderstood.

Here is what Srila Prabhupada wrote on the topic from Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila 22.118

avaisnava-sanga-tyaga, bahu-sisya na kariba
bahu-grantha-kalabhyasa-vyakhyana varjiba

The twelfth item is to give up the company of nondevotees. (13) One should not accept an unlimited number of disciples. (14) One should not partially study many scriptures just to be able to give references and expand explanations.

PURPORT

Accepting an unlimited number of devotees or disciples is very risky for one who is not a preacher. According to Srila Jiva Gosvami, a preacher has to accept many disciples to expand the cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. This is risky because when a spiritual master accepts a disciple, he naturally accepts the disciple's sinful activities and their reactions. Unless he is very powerful, he cannot assimilate all the sinful reactions of his disciples. Thus if he is not powerful, he has to suffer the consequences, for one is forbidden to accept many disciples.

It's very easy to misunderstand that statement. It has to be understood within the context it is written in. The context is a warning not to accept many disciples if one is not a preacher and if one is not very powerful.

If Bhakti Tirtha was suffering due to the sins of his followers it was because he wasn't a powerful person. Secondly we have to understand what this warning is all about. Why would Krishna transfer karmic reactions from a follower to a leader if that leader is a person who has been promised by Krishna to be protected by Him from all sinful reactions if he abandons all paths but that of devotional service to Sri Krishna?

sarva-dharman parityajya
mam ekam saranam vraja
aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
moksayisyami ma sucah

Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.

The warning about accepting disciples is for people who are not powerful preachers of Krishna Bhakti. An example can be given of the relationship between the head of the government and a common soldier.

If the soldier is commiting sinful acts by killing and wanton destruction of innocent people and their villages, then the leader will take on the karmic reactions of that soldier to some degree. The soldier is under the command structure. Whatever actions the soldier commits are therefore the responsibility of the leader. The leader's job is to make sure that only qualified soldiers are "in the field" and that they are trained up properly and have the moral training to qualify them them to represent the leader's military ambitions. Therefore the leader is culpable for the sinful acts commited by those under his chain of command. The leader by virtue of taking the position of ultimate authority brings upon himself the responsibility of the actions of those who are under his authority. Unless that leader is powerful and can control those under him, limiting them to non sinful actions, then he puts himself in a precarious situation because the leader is ultimatly responsible for the actions of those who are chosen to work for him and take orders from him. The leader has to make sure that his forces are up to the task of fighting in a morally acceptable way. If they are not, but he still chooses to go ahead and use them in warfare, then he risks the chance of incuring the karmic reactions created by those under his chain of command. It is risky to accept the position as absolute authority over others. Only someone who is qualified should attempt it.

So a surrendered disciple is someone who the guru has taken the responsibility over. The sastra tells the disciple to utterly surrender to the guru. If the guru accepts the disciple and the disciple surrenders completely to the guru, then the guru risks the chance of being the recipient of karmic reactions. They can be of 2 types. Those created by the disciple as long as the disciple thinks he is doing what the guru wants him to do, and those brought onto the guru by giving orders or advice to the disciple for reasons other then trying to make the best and most helpful decision for the disciple.

Unless the guru is free from all exploitative tendencies and all anarthas, and also fully surrendered to Krishna, a liberated soul, then the chance of karmic reactions are very high. Krishna promises to protect anyone from all karmic reactions if they surrender to Him. Why would this promise not extend to the bona fide spiritual master? The bona fide spiritual master is supposed to be the quintessential fully surrendered soul. So He above anyone else will be protected from all sinful reactions.

If someone who is not a "poweful" vaisnava and a "preacher" and fully surrendered to Krishna, takes on disciples, then it is risky, he may take on karmic reactions.

So if Bhakti Tirtha was suffering from karmic reactions it is because he wasn't receiving the protection that a fully surrendered soul would receive. Sometimes we may hear of descriptions where famous vaisnavas have asked for the sins of others to be put on their own heads, but that is to demonstrate the deep non exploitative and charitable character of great devotees. An educated devotee know that Krishna will not cause His pure devotee to suffer for the actions of others.

Haridas Thakura was beaten mercilessly, yet he did not even feel it. This is what the Lord offers his pure devotee. Haridas Thakura's pastime was an example to show us that no one's sinful acts can cause a pure devotee to suffer, even if they beat him with sticks.

Posted by Bhakta David Nollmeyer @ 10/18/2005 02:46 PM PST

Hare Krishna Prabhus

Is it possible for anyone connnected with Bhakti Tirtha Maharaj to clarify the issue with Hadlini Prabhu.

They are both gone now but this issue should be closed.

Hare Krishna

Bhakta David

The Martyrdom of Hladini © 2000

Hladini devi dasi and her husband Mahananda dasa were initiated in Detroit on 29 March 1970. How she came to be in Monrovia, Liberia at the time of her death is obscure. Because she was aligned with the breakaway Kirtanananda faction at the time of her death she has never been given the recognition she deserved. Now that a general amnesty has long since been granted to the breakaway faction, and indeed as former breakaway members now serve on the GBC, perhaps her story can now be told.

By the time Hladini got to Monrovia, the various factions fighting in Liberia had gotten a reputation for bizarre behavior. They wore strange costumes like wedding gowns, Donald Duck masks, shower caps, or nothing at all. They fought in a drug-induced frenzy. Many of these warriors were children who went into battle carrying teddy bears and baby dolls. Why devotees were there at all is an open question with mysterious overtones. The temple was in the capital, Monrovia, in an area nominally controlled by the Economic Community of West African States Monitoring Group (ECOMOG). The Freeport area, which is about five miles outside Monrovia, was controlled by the troops of the Independent National Patriotic Front of Liberia (INPFL), led by Prince Yormei Johnson. Prince Johnson was a notorious killer who had tortured and killed the former President Samual Doe. The event was filmed on video and the copies sold in the marketplace. Johnson also was known for killing his own men at a faster rate than the enemy.

Now, it so happened that the devotees wanted to do food distribution: there was widespread starvation and two out of every three Liberians had been made homeless. So, they approached Johnson and made a proposal to him which ran something like this: “Since you control the port and all the international food aid that comes to the country passes through your hands, why don’t you give us some of the food? We will distribute that food to the hungry and you will get credit for being a great humanitarian.” The warlord agreed to this proposal and thereafter he diverted supplies of commodity food to the devotees, who then distributed it as prasadam. He even visited the temple and received a Bhagavad Gita as-it-is. Apparently he visited more than once and enjoyed prasadam. But, the warlord’s reputation for insane murder bothered some of the devotees, so one day a Nigerian devotee wrote a letter to Prince Johnson that said, in effect, “You are a great personality, so you should stop conducting yourself in such a demonic manner and stop killing people. This will benefit you and all humanity.” It has been claimed that Hladini was the author of the letter, but that is not true. There were two young brothers who were bhaktas in the temple. It is they who heard Johnson and his troops arrive late in the night of Thursday, 13th September 1990. One of them hid behind the bathtub, the other in a closet. Because they hid, they survived. There was banging on the door, and then a crash. All the devotees were rounded up downstairs. There were seven African men and an African woman, plus Hladini devi dasi, disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Johnson ranted and raged and held up the letter, shaking it. “How dare you send this to me!” he bellowed in his pidgin West African English. Then they pushed the devotees out and shoved them into a waiting vehicle. They were driven over the low bridge that crosses the muddy St Paul River and then the little convoy stopped at a dirty beach by the mouth of the river. At gunpoint, the nine devotees were forced out and herded onto the sand. Johnson announced that only the men would be killed. It may be the women were to be raped and released, or left entirely unmolested. Such things are terribly random in these circumstances, and very hard to predict. But it was then that Hladini had her finest hour and showed bravery greater than any man I have ever known. As Johnson raised his weapon to fire the execution volley, Hladini leapt forward and attacked Johnson with her hands. “How dare you kill devotees of Krishna!” she shouted. But she was a woman, and a beautiful but weak one at that, so her attack had little result but to ensure her own death. All were slain save the African girl, who is no longer an active devotee. They chanted as they were shot down. That was the night of September 13th, or it could have been the early morning hours of September 14th (Indira Ekadasi). The bodies were left on the beach. When the tide came in they were washed out, but as the river is tidal at that point, the bodies were carried back into the town with the tide. The bodies of some of the men could be seen drifting in and out in the St Paul River for days, their dead hands stiff with rigor mortis holding their beads within their beadbags. Hladini’s body also drifted in. Her sari became entangled with the structure of the bridge and remained there for several days, rising and falling with the tide. According to Tribhuvanatha prabhu, who helped investigate this and interviewed one of the brothers, “It freaked out the whole town.” Not content with his work thus far, Prince Johnson continued on his bloody rampage, murdering a total of 29 people that night. In 1996 the interim government of Charles Taylor attempted to arrest him for murder and Johnson precipitated a wave of violent riots. He later went “insane” and is rumored to be in an asylum in Nigeria. The faction he led disintegrated. The next time you are distributing a book and someone insults you, think twice about calling him a demon. Understand what a demon really is, as opposed to the merely misguided or unfortunate. For a chaste woman, given the choice between rape and death, with your students about to be slain in the cruelest manner before your eyes, what do you do? Hladini faced an impossible choice in a doomed, impossible situation. She reacted with integrity and loyalty and without fear and is a credit to her spiritual master. Oh, such a disciple! But she had such a spiritual master! And, we know how Prabhupada admired courage. In short, she passed her test gloriously. Let no one attempt to minimize her. In Lagos, Nigeria the devotees found out about it from Liberian refugees they encountered on sankirtan several months later. One of my Nigerian friends wrote me in London about it.

http://www.iskcon.net/inmemoriam/devotees/d_Hladin.html

Posted by Bhakta David Nollmeyer @ 10/18/2005 02:45 PM PST

Hare Krishna Prabhus

Is it possible for anyone connnected with Bhakti Tirtha Maharaj to clarify the issue with Hadlini Parbhu.

They are both gone now but this issue should be closed.

Hare Krishna

Bhakta David

The Martyrdom of Hladini © 2000

Hladini devi dasi and her husband Mahananda dasa were initiated in Detroit on 29 March 1970. How she came to be in Monrovia, Liberia at the time of her death is obscure. Because she was aligned with the breakaway Kirtanananda faction at the time of her death she has never been given the recognition she deserved. Now that a general amnesty has long since been granted to the breakaway faction, and indeed as former breakaway members now serve on the GBC, perhaps her story can now be told.

By the time Hladini got to Monrovia, the various factions fighting in Liberia had gotten a reputation for bizarre behavior. They wore strange costumes like wedding gowns, Donald Duck masks, shower caps, or nothing at all. They fought in a drug-induced frenzy. Many of these warriors were children who went into battle carrying teddy bears and baby dolls. Why devotees were there at all is an open question with mysterious overtones. The temple was in the capital, Monrovia, in an area nominally controlled by the Economic Community of West African States Monitoring Group (ECOMOG). The Freeport area, which is about five miles outside Monrovia, was controlled by the troops of the Independent National Patriotic Front of Liberia (INPFL), led by Prince Yormei Johnson. Prince Johnson was a notorious killer who had tortured and killed the former President Samual Doe. The event was filmed on video and the copies sold in the marketplace. Johnson also was known for killing his own men at a faster rate than the enemy.

Now, it so happened that the devotees wanted to do food distribution: there was widespread starvation and two out of every three Liberians had been made homeless. So, they approached Johnson and made a proposal to him which ran something like this: “Since you control the port and all the international food aid that comes to the country passes through your hands, why don’t you give us some of the food? We will distribute that food to the hungry and you will get credit for being a great humanitarian.” The warlord agreed to this proposal and thereafter he diverted supplies of commodity food to the devotees, who then distributed it as prasadam. He even visited the temple and received a Bhagavad Gita as-it-is. Apparently he visited more than once and enjoyed prasadam. But, the warlord’s reputation for insane murder bothered some of the devotees, so one day a Nigerian devotee wrote a letter to Prince Johnson that said, in effect, “You are a great personality, so you should stop conducting yourself in such a demonic manner and stop killing people. This will benefit you and all humanity.” It has been claimed that Hladini was the author of the letter, but that is not true. There were two young brothers who were bhaktas in the temple. It is they who heard Johnson and his troops arrive late in the night of Thursday, 13th September 1990. One of them hid behind the bathtub, the other in a closet. Because they hid, they survived. There was banging on the door, and then a crash. All the devotees were rounded up downstairs. There were seven African men and an African woman, plus Hladini devi dasi, disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Johnson ranted and raged and held up the letter, shaking it. “How dare you send this to me!” he bellowed in his pidgin West African English. Then they pushed the devotees out and shoved them into a waiting vehicle. They were driven over the low bridge that crosses the muddy St Paul River and then the little convoy stopped at a dirty beach by the mouth of the river. At gunpoint, the nine devotees were forced out and herded onto the sand. Johnson announced that only the men would be killed. It may be the women were to be raped and released, or left entirely unmolested. Such things are terribly random in these circumstances, and very hard to predict. But it was then that Hladini had her finest hour and showed bravery greater than any man I have ever known. As Johnson raised his weapon to fire the execution volley, Hladini leapt forward and attacked Johnson with her hands. “How dare you kill devotees of Krishna!” she shouted. But she was a woman, and a beautiful but weak one at that, so her attack had little result but to ensure her own death. All were slain save the African girl, who is no longer an active devotee. They chanted as they were shot down. That was the night of September 13th, or it could have been the early morning hours of September 14th (Indira Ekadasi). The bodies were left on the beach. When the tide came in they were washed out, but as the river is tidal at that point, the bodies were carried back into the town with the tide. The bodies of some of the men could be seen drifting in and out in the St Paul River for days, their dead hands stiff with rigor mortis holding their beads within their beadbags. Hladini’s body also drifted in. Her sari became entangled with the structure of the bridge and remained there for several days, rising and falling with the tide. According to Tribhuvanatha prabhu, who helped investigate this and interviewed one of the brothers, “It freaked out the whole town.” Not content with his work thus far, Prince Johnson continued on his bloody rampage, murdering a total of 29 people that night. In 1996 the interim government of Charles Taylor attempted to arrest him for murder and Johnson precipitated a wave of violent riots. He later went “insane” and is rumored to be in an asylum in Nigeria. The faction he led disintegrated. The next time you are distributing a book and someone insults you, think twice about calling him a demon. Understand what a demon really is, as opposed to the merely misguided or unfortunate. For a chaste woman, given the choice between rape and death, with your students about to be slain in the cruelest manner before your eyes, what do you do? Hladini faced an impossible choice in a doomed, impossible situation. She reacted with integrity and loyalty and without fear and is a credit to her spiritual master. Oh, such a disciple! But she had such a spiritual master! And, we know how Prabhupada admired courage. In short, she passed her test gloriously. Let no one attempt to minimize her. In Lagos, Nigeria the devotees found out about it from Liberian refugees they encountered on sankirtan several months later. One of my Nigerian friends wrote me in London about it.

http://www.iskcon.net/inmemoriam/devotees/d_Hladin.html

Posted by Nitya Siddha dasa @ 10/18/2005 02:30 PM PST

With reference to Radha Krishna dasa's brilliant article"The letter he did'nt ask me to write"I would like to commend Radha Krishna dasa for such a brilliant and detailed account of some of the history of Bhakti Tirtha Swamis illness,activities and ultimate demise.This is perhaps the most sane exposistion of the real life of BTS that I have read to date.It addresses the real core truths about BTS's life and preaching as well as the illusions about his posistion both from himself,his godbrothers and his disciples.I thank Radha Krishna dasa for such a well researched,brilliantly presented and informative article.
There is'nt much I can add as most of the important points have already been discussed, although I would like to elaborate on BTS's idea that he would somehow be able to communicate with his godbrothers and disciples on the "astral"plain during his life and after his death.These ideas have got more to do with the psychic fair fraternity of mediums and physchics than any real basis in fact.It in my opinion exhibits a shallow understanding of the very basis of our religion expounded by the Bhagavad-Gita.In the verse; "Dehino smin yatha dehe
kaumaram yauvanam jara,thata dehantara praptir dhiras tatra na muhyati. Translation: "As the emodied soul continually passes,in this body,from boyhood to youth to old age,the soul similarly passes into another body at death.A sober person is not bewildered by such a change".(Bhagavad Gita 2.13)Here it is clearly stated by Lord Sri Krishna Himself,that the soul passes into another body at death.It does not say that the soul hangs around in an ephemeral astral plain and starts communicating via this medium with other living beings both physically embodied and departed.This in essence would represent a serious deviation from the teachings of the Supreme Lord and all other learned vaishnavas.The only circumstance that I can think of where there may be some possibility of this kind of communication taking place is in a dream,wherein it is not factual nor based in reality or if the living entity dies an untimely death and becomes a ghost.It is therefore possible that the so called new age phychics and mediums are communicating with ghosts.This idea is not outside of our philosophy and is supported to a certain extent by vedanta.So where does this leave Bhakti Tirtha Swami? Either he egocentrically imagined himself to be liberated and endowed with mystic siddhis or in the realms of fantasy.I suggest to the reader that the latter is more likely to be closer to the truth.

Your Servant,

Nitya Siddha dasa

Posted by Anonymous @ 10/18/2005 02:22 PM PST

Finally, someone has the sense and guts to point out the absurdity of BTS's situation. Didn't anyone besides myself see the hypocrisy of his pursuing aggressive (and futile) medical treatment to the tune of $6000+/wk while he aligned himself ostensibly with marginalized devotees? I would have been more impressed had he chanted quietly in Mayapur, avoided the pathetic death watch drama, and donated the funds to poor devotees' medical care than to throw that money in the air as he did. Our godsister Ganga dasi died w/o all the hoopla and fanfare. We all have to die; what is so remarkable about that?

Posted by jatayu das @ 10/17/2005 10:52 PM PST

Some good points by Radha Krsna das, Mexico:

"The Letter He Didn’t Ask Me To Write"

[Text snipped, as article was posted on Sun's front page today. Thanks for posting it here, Jatayu das.]

Posted by Pandu das @ 10/17/2005 10:36 AM PST

jyotirmaya,

"He kept his vows of chanting at least 16 rounds per day, followed the 4 regulative principles,"

How do you know? I've heard from several sources that he had illicit sex, even as a sannyasi. I can't prove it either way, and I doubt you can either. It sounds like you're just repeating something somebody told you, unsubstantiated, and expecting everyone to believe it.

"Why nitpick?"

I nitpick because my local devotee community, Gita-nagari, expects everyone to worship him, but I don't want to worship anyone who retains material conditioning. They portray him as a pure devotee, equal to Srila Prabhupada. A pure devotee should have no fault, so a responsible spiritual aspirant will evaluate the person to see if there is some fault. Otherwise there is a serious danger of being mislead.

"Our movement would be very strong if we had more men like him."

Bhakti-Tirtha caused me to lose faith in ISKCON after ten years of my nurturing that faith. From a high point of my enthusiasm for participating in ISKCON, to seeing it as a mundane cult, simply due to Bhakti-Tirtha Swami's influence. I thought no one could ever harm my faith, but I didn't consider that the threat would come from within my chosen Hare Krishna community.

"I am sure he went back to Godhead to be with Srila Prabhupada. He sure couldn't have been much wrong if he accomplished that."

How do you know he went back to Godhead? Did you go to Krsnaloka and see him there?

I am still waiting for a proper explanation of why he invited an ISKCON-convicted, unrepentant child molester to Gita-nagari and gave him extremely high honors.

I would also like a satisfactory explaination concerning the response by his disciples when I asked about it. First I was threatened by a Gita-nagari temple boardmember. Then I was condemned by many of his disciples. Then the other Gita-nagari leaders formed a conspiracy to get me impeached from my elected community board position. Multiple so-called brahmana disciples of Bhakti-Tirtha Swami told me lies, which were either obvious on their face or which I was able to find out later by a little investigation. Gradually it became apparent that these people were were corrupt, pretending to be Vaishnavas but sacrificing ethical principles for power. In day-to-day life, everything was fine, but as soon as a question arose, they had to get their way by any means. That's not my idea of what it means to be a Vaishnava.

Hare Krsna

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/17/2005 04:10 AM PST

quote from Jyotirmaya

"So Bhakta Tirtha Maharaja tried to be creative in his preaching work. At least he tried to preach in an effective, albeit controversial, way."

-thank you for recognizing the truth of the matter!

And let's not forget that Srila Prabhupada had given him his exceptional blessings in the presence of other disciples by embracing him and saying, "Now your life is successful."

-yes this is true, but the negative ones fail to mention these blessings and the pleasure that Srila Prabhupada had in hearing about BTS's LIFE RISKING preaching.

He kept his vows of chanting at least 16 rounds per day, followed the 4 regulative principles, chanted and danced ecstatically in the association of devotees, took sannyasa and tried to make his preaching work dynamic and then died in an exemplary way. Why nitpick? He was just trying to be innovative, trying to see if he could be successful in his preaching work by adopting such methods. He had the basics down, and he was, in my eyes, just trying to make it more appealing and stirring more interest in people by adding something different.

-yes, yes and yes, he dovetailed modern trends to ATTRACT PEOPLE TO KC AND HE WAS VERY SUCCESFUL. the book SW1 which has been criticised made over 50 devotees who are now initiated iskcon members.

Our movement would be very strong if we had more men like him.

-this is what many people have said

This reminds me of when Srila Prabhupada came to the U.S. and his godbrothers criticized him because he was doing the preaching work in his own way.

-yes, that is a fact, a comparison i made in an article which was criticised but it is a fact, envy is everywhere- especially when someone is succesful and powerful


Bhakti Tirtha Maharaja was a saint!

-yes, and yes again, i am happy at least one person who reads this website agrees with the truth of the matter.

I am sure he went back to Godhead to be with Srila Prabhupada. He sure couldn't have been much wrong if he accomplished that.

I hope like Jayananda prabhu, we will have a day in honor of Bhakta-tirtha Maharaja.

-his dissapearance day is on the iskcon calender, thank you for your appreciation of my gurudeva
ys
hari

your servant,

jyotirmaya das

Posted by jyotirmaya das @ 10/14/2005 05:03 PM PST

Prabhus - Please accept my respectful obeisances. Prabhupada ki jai!

So Bhakta Tirtha Maharaja tried to be creative in his preaching work. At least he tried to preach in an effective, albeit controversial, way. And let's not forget that Srila Prabhupada had given him his exceptional blessings in the presence of other disciples by embracing him and saying, "Now your life is successful."

He kept his vows of chanting at least 16 rounds per day, followed the 4 regulative principles, chanted and danced ecstatically in the association of devotees, took sannyasa and tried to make his preaching work dynamic and then died in an exemplary way. Why nitpick? He was just trying to be innovative, trying to see if he could be successful in his preaching work by adopting such methods. He had the basics down, and he was, in my eyes, just trying to make it more appealing and stirring more interest in people by adding something different.

Our movement would be very strong if we had more men like him.

This reminds me of when Srila Prabhupada came to the U.S. and his godbrothers criticized him because he was doing the preaching work in his own way.

Bhakti Tirtha Maharaja was a saint! I am sure he went back to Godhead to be with Srila Prabhupada. He sure couldn't have been much wrong if he accomplished that.

I hope like Jayananda prabhu, we will have a day in honor of Bhakta-tirtha Maharaja.

your servant,

jyotirmaya das

Posted by Vijay @ 10/14/2005 04:48 PM PST

I thought I'll mention the UFO point as Shiva prabhu spent 7 paragraphs explaining how it began after 1947.

For the 1 book out of 7/8 books maharaj wrote and the fraction of lectures he gave on these topics compared to direct krishna concious talks I personally think this has been blown out of propotion by those that have either been hurt in the past and have an agenda, and others that may justifibly be cautious of what happens in the movement due to the many deviations previously, and genuinely want to make others aware for their own good.

Please do make others aware as thats how I've learnt about what to be wary about, but please try and do it in a way which prabhupada himself would have done and taught when dealing with conflicts between vaishnavas, using vaishnava culture, and ettiquette, else we in the name of being brahminical we say our so called truth in a self rightous way, which will fall on deaf ears to those you are trying to make aware.If we dont follow the culture we also become a part of the problem and may unintentionally do more harm than good no matter how much one thinks he is a scholor in siddhanta.

Posted by Ragaputra dasa @ 10/14/2005 09:37 AM PST

It is wholly irrelevant whether UFO's, alien conspiracies, or any of the rest of such new age babble has any basis in fact. It is all material. It has nothing whatsoever to do with transcendental knowledge. It is at best, prajalpa. Krishna's name, qualities, forms and pastimes are all attractive for all living entities for all time. Any attempt to dilute the pure siddhanta for the sake of salesmanship belies a basic failure to grasp this point. The comparison between Srila Prabhupada's "Easy Journey to Other Planets" and "Spiritual Warrior I" is entirely misplaced. On the one hand, Srila Prabhupada is dispensing absolute truth in line with the previous acharyas; on the other hand, we have a panoply of concocted theories with no basis in the sastra. If one does not have the power to discriminate between the two and detect the obvious difference, there is no point in arguing further.

Posted by Vijay @ 10/14/2005 09:09 AM PST

Shiva Prabhu you wrote:

"That kind of "preaching" is counterproductive and will end up turning people off from Krishna consciousness more then turning them on. Most will feel they have been conned. It's always best to be upfront and honet with any type of preaching. Trying to present vaisnavism through some psuedo spiritual teaching in order "to fill more seats" is really quite foolish. Those people may be gullible and love investigating psuedo spirituality, but they are not complete idiots and they will most likely not be amused when they find out they are being given the soft sell, they will not be amused when they realize that the purpose of the presentation is to convert them to Krishna consciousness."

From the tone of above it seems like you've had a great deal of experience with people who felt they had been conned by maharaj or done some sort of survey to measure the damage. As I said in my experience where I've met literally hundreds of people who have been to maharaja's talk's, I've also taken many new people to his talks from universities, no one has ever felt conned (if you want to verify this we have a database with contacts), most knew its something to do with krishna conciousness, and had an interest in the subject maharaj is talking about. At these programs we tried "to fill more seats" with these "foolish" topics and now have dedicated devotees that are doing youth preaching as a result of these talks.

Krishna says 4 types of people are attracted to him, so we cater for different mentalities. So we have other foolish talks to trick people to come like stress management, how to be materially succesful, astrology and whatever thy hype is at the time as well as standard topics, my opinion is this is dynamic preaching and your opinion is its foolish, fine, let us try and do what pleases prabhupada in our own ways.

As for the UFO thing you say:

"The modern UFO movement started in 1947 with the first sighting."

I agree the movement started then as well as an increase in sightings but I dont agree that there were no sightings prior to 1947.

You said:
"Previous to 1947 there was no UFO movement nor was there talk of UFOs or abductions, nor sightings nor any of it. "

Take a look at this its a summary timeline of sightings throughout the ages. http://web.bryant.edu/~history/h453proj/spring_99/ufos1/mainTimeline.html

Posted by shiva das @ 10/14/2005 04:05 AM PST

Vijay you wrote:

I would just like to point out that most "intelligent" people your talking about would see chanting on the streets, being vegeterian, the 4 regs believing in a blue cowheard boy god etc as the lunatic fringe.

I would disagree. There are close to a billion hindus in the wrold who would also disagree, and pretty much any intelligent person who takes the time and energy to investigate bhakti yoga.

On the other hand the belief in alien overlords, mu, etc, are the kinds of beliefs that generally speaking are considered part of the lunatic fringe. And the more someone investigates that topic the more they will think it is crazy.

If someone thinks gaudiya vaisnavas are wacko it is relatively easy to show that person that their belief is based on ignorance of Hinduism and bhakti yoga. Whereas if someone is a leader of gaudiya vaisnavas, touted as a messenger of God, someone touted as a channel for God, then if that person writes and speaks frequently about how all of the fringe UFO/Alien conspiracy/Alien overlords stuff is not only true and actually real, but that he has an explanation of what those Aliens and conspiracies actually are, based on his religion and religious books, then the people who rightly think that the alien conspiracy stuff is wacko will also think that "Swami Krishnapada" is also a wacko and his followers are wacko and his religion is wacko...regardless of it's connection to Hinduism, Vedanta, and Yoga.

Granted some people will be attracted to that sort of stuff, but most people will think it quite mad.

You also wrote:

The point is to attract lunatics and less of a lunatic people to krishna conciousness.

But what of all the people who come into contact with "Swami Krishnapada" through his numerous lectures on aliens etc, who are not lunatics? They will think Krishna consciousness is crazy for advocating the worship of a crank as a God realized soul.

Then you quoted this from "Swami Krishnapada":

"I have even included in the new edition at the beginning that the author
is purposely using the language of the psychics to attract them to
bhakti and not to influence the devotees to embrace secondary knowledge.
In rare cases some of our acaryas like Bhaktivinoda have done this, so
it is not unique. The beauty of the book really is how it shows how
these professionals become devotees now serving in ISKCON, following all
four principles and giving up their past gurus, impersonalism, etc."

That is not what he says in the intro, I have read it, it's online. What he actually says is that he is trying to show how God is the ultimate controller i.e God has ultimate control over the aliens and their conspiracies. He writes that he is trying to bring God consciousness to people through his lectures on those topics. As he mentions it is a new introduction, due to criticism from vaisnavas no doubt.

But really he misses the point. If I write a book about how martians are involved in controlling the political events on earth and how they have a plan to control everything to furthur their evil goals, and then I add that I mean to show how those martians are ultimately not really in control, that really they are higher beings then humans from other dimensions who may live for millions of years and have superhuman powers but they are still subject to karma, and that their plans are ultimately only leading to death, that they are inferior to the vaisnavas who are visnuduttas and can battle the martians on the pyschic plane...then how does that make my assurances that martians are real and controlling the world any less crazy?

It's like telling someone that you talk to invisible space demons but that you teach them about God, so that means you aren't really crazy.

More people will be turned off by such a presentation then turned on by it, and the people that are turned on by it will generally be the types of people who believe anything to some degree or another. To them anything Bhakti Tirtha says about Krishna wil just be another exotic page in their book of exotic new age psychic alien pyramid phenomena.

There is definitely a class of people who are believers in anything otherworldy and mysterious if it includes enough psuedo mystical new age babble about aliens and mystic overlords. The Theosophical society in the latter part of the 19th century invented that milieu of psuedo mystical atlantis aryan alien hidden master new age tripe. The nazi's based their entire philosophy on Theosophy dogma. So there is an audience for that kind of stuff. But it is very small and eccentric. The vast majority of people will think that anyone who believes in that stuff to be quite foolish.

So Bhakti Tirtha is in the opinion of most people a foolish person, not based on his being a gaudiya vaisnava, but because of his belief in Theosophy/Nazi/Elizabeth Clare Prophet/New Age foolishness. And because he is promoted as being the best and brightest that gaudiya vaisnavism has to offer, then he automatically will turn most people off to gaudiya vaisnavism.

Then you wrote:

Now im not sure how many people he put off, but when at university we organised many talks all through out england including the prestigous cambridge and oxford, his talks seemed to attract by far the most students, (Past life regression attaracted a similar amount done by a different devotee) Many devotees have come through in this way. Again its down to opinions I personally think it done more good as i've seen devotees come through may be you've seen people put off, but those that wernt interested just didnt bother coming until a topic that suited them came around I've never heard anyone say because of maharaj that hare krishna's are lunatics (If they did say that it was due to the dress and the singing and dancing and other strangeness they saw)

No doubt there are quite a few people who will be attracted by his Theosophical style of dogma, but most people will not be, they will be turned off. And in fact the people that are attracted to hear from vaisnavas speaking on New Age psuedo spiritual topics will then be more likely to be turned off once they find out that the real motive of the speaker or author is to get people to convert to a specific religious belief and to become a follower of that person as a cult leader. That kind of "preaching" is counterproductive and will end up turning people off from Krishna consciousness more then turning them on. Most will feel they have been conned. It's always best to be upfront and honet with any type of preaching. Trying to present vaisnavism through some psuedo spiritual teaching in order "to fill more seats" is really quite foolish. Those people may be gullible and love investigating psuedo spirituality, but they are not complete idiots and they will most likely not be amused when they find out they are being given the soft sell, they will not be amused when they realize that the purpose of the presentation is to convert them to Krishna consciousness. Vaisnavas should always be honest and upfront, the potency is in Krishna consciousness presented purely, there is no need to present some hackneyed psuedo spiritual claptrap in the name of "attracting people". If the devotees are sincere then the potency of Sri Caitanya will be felt, Krishna consicousness should never be attemtped to be presented in some roundabout tricky way. It is not tricks that enlighten people, it is Krishna who enlightens people.

You also wrote:

You also talked about UFO's and how it began, I've got some knowledge on this subject and have read what you wrote previously although its true that sighting increased due to militry activities after the world wars its not true to say
"That is when the UFO sightings began."

There have been written accounts of beings form other planets all over the vedic literature, egyption accounts, biblical accounts and throughout the ages including the famous fatima prophecies. Just do a google search on "ancient" "ufo".

The modern UFO movement started in 1947 with the first sighting. Yes, you can find all sorts of teachings and writings about beings from other planets in most cultures around the world from a very long time ago. But those are always intertwined with the religious mythology and or mystical visions and metaphorical religious symbolism of those cultures. Previous to 1947 there was no UFO movement nor was there talk of UFOs or abductions, nor sightings nor any of it. That is the milieu that Bhakti Tirtha belongs to and embraced and tried to present himself as a prophet of. Maybe he was an estimated prophet?.

Posted by Vijay @ 10/13/2005 03:57 AM PST

Shiva prabhu,

Just to clarify a few things if I may.

You said:
"Think about it; the topics discussed by Bhakti Tirtha are considered by most intelligent people to be nonsense i.e UFOs, Atlantis, Mu, Alien overlords running secret societies, etc. These are considered to be by most intelligent people fringe conspiracy theories and wacko delusions."
I would just like to point out that most "intelligent" people your talking about would see chanting on the streets, being vegeterian, the 4 regs believing in a blue cowheard boy god etc as the lunatic fringe.

The point is to attract lunatics and less of a lunatic people to krishna conciousness.

Bhakti tirtha swami admits he makes wild statements.

"Srila Prabhupada's first book was "Easy journey to other planets". He
tried to capture people by using this contemporary theme. I have one
very unusual book: Spiritual Warrior I, which was a series of lectures
to professionals who are metaphysics. I made a few wild statements. I
have several disclaimers in the book however, clarifying that the real
goal is not these passages of secondary knowledge but primary knowledge
which brings one to full surrender to the Supreme."

You also say:
"Buuuutt...the problem is that he could not say that in his writings or lectures. He couldn't tell his readership and audience that what he was telling them was all a big scam in order to convert them to Hinduism, could he?"

However as maharaj points out above and also below that he does say in his writings that this is lower truth.

"I have even included in the new edition at the beginning that the author
is purposely using the language of the psychics to attract them to
bhakti and not to influence the devotees to embrace secondary knowledge.
In rare cases some of our acaryas like Bhaktivinoda have done this, so
it is not unique. The beauty of the book really is how it shows how
these professionals become devotees now serving in ISKCON, following all
four principles and giving up their past gurus, impersonalism, etc."

Now im not sure how many people he put off, but when at university we organised many talks all through out england including the prestigous cambridge and oxford, his talks seemed to attract by far the most students, (Past life regression attaracted a similar amount done by a different devotee) Many devotees have come through in this way. Again its down to opinions I personally think it done more good as i've seen devotees come through may be you've seen people put off, but those that wernt interested just didnt bother coming until a topic that suited them came around I've never heard anyone say because of maharaj that hare krishna's are lunatics (If they did say that it was due to the dress and the singing and dancing and other strangeness they saw).

You also talked about UFO's and how it began, I've got some knowledge on this subject and have read what you wrote previously although its true that sighting increased due to militry activities after the world wars its not true to say
"That is when the UFO sightings began."

There have been written accounts of beings form other planets all over the vedic literature, egyption accounts, biblical accounts and throughout the ages including the famous fatima prophecies. Just do a google search on "ancient" "ufo".

Heres a link on some famous ancient art works dipicting flying saucers http://www.dudeman.net/siriusly/ufo/art.shtml

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/12/2005 11:44 AM PST

i am very tired of this issue, it is not going anywhere-fast

i will agree that some of us disagree and wish you all the best in Prabhupada's service.

devotees should not fight and focus on differences, rather they should focus on the similarities i.e chanting and following the process

we are after nectar, not stool

ys
hari dasa

Posted by Pandu das @ 10/11/2005 05:19 PM PST

Hare Krishna.
Dear Jahnava dd, Thanks for fixing the formatting on that comment. It was quite confusing to see without the indentations.

Just so its clear, that was my response to an e-mail that Hari das sent to my guru, complaining about me and suggesting that I get counseling. He's at least the fourth person do do that in the past few months. I'll give him credit though, he was the first to tell me about it in advance, so at least I could ask him to copy me on his e-mail so I could have a fair chance to give a reply. Hare Krishna.

Posted by bhaktin Miriam @ 10/11/2005 03:53 PM PST

Hari das prabhu said that this is not true:

- disciples of Prabhupada who are gurus should not be considered pure but conditioned
- disciples of such Gurus should be sceptical towards them and not hold them in high esteem
-the gbc is not to be trusted
-iskcon is failing
-persons like myself are in illusion and need your help to see things as they are

Prabhu, there is ample evidence that many gurus have fallen down and others who have not had a "public" falldown are not being true to their positions. Taking a guru is very risky indeed.
Whether devotees that have been initiated by Srila Prabhupada are pure or not is not the point. The point is that taking initiation from them is a big gamble.
No, Hari das prabhu, it is not that we should not hold gurus in high esteem. It is that we should hold them accountable for wrong-doings, like everyone else. They are not exempt. They are not above the law.
In the case of Bhakti Tirtha Maharaja, we cannot and should not pretend that he did not ask a child molester to give lectures and lead kirtans. Nor should we pretend that Bhakti Tirtha Maharaja did not invite Kirtananda to Gita-Nagari.
Yes, the GBC is not to be trusted. In the past they have lied. For instance, the GBC wrote a paper against the book "Srila Prabhupada: The Prominent Link." That paper doesn't have an ounce of truth.
Prabhu, you are being dishonest by refusing to admit that Bhakti Tirtha Maharaja did wrong by inviting two child molesters (Vakresvara Pandit and Kirtananda)to Gita Nagari, and that he gave high honors to one of them in front of everybody.
Yes, prabhu, ISKCON *is* in big trouble.

Posted by Pandu das @ 10/11/2005 03:34 PM PST

Hare Krishna.
Dear Jahnava dd, Thanks for fixing the formatting on that comment. It was quite confusing to see without the indentations.

Just so its clear, that was my response to an e-mail that Hari das sent to my guru, complaining about me and suggesting that I get counseling. He's at least the fourth person do do that in the past few months. I'll give him credit though, he was the first to tell me about it in advance, so at least I could ask him to copy me on his e-mail so I could have a fair chance to give a reply. Hare Krishna.

Posted by Pandu das @ 10/11/2005 03:07 PM PST

The comment below, under:

Posted by Pandu dasa (repost) @ 10/11/2005 12:22 PM PST

was not submitted here by me, and is somewhat messed up in its presentation. There is no clear demarcation between where Hari das' writing ended and mine began. Better to link to the original pages, I think.

Hare Krishna.

Posted by shiva das @ 10/11/2005 01:25 PM PST

1)
-so more are out of iskcon than in?(please show statistics) it makes one a real follower of Prabhupada to not be active in the society by means of preaching, donating funds, doing regular service? how is this confirmed by Prabhupadas own words and those of sastra? Prabhupada said just before he left "your love for me will be shown by how you CO OPERATE WHEN I AM GONE".
How is not participating co operating? please answer this?

Srila Prabhupada had somewhere around 10,000 disciples. I doubt that there are more then a few hundred still in Iskcon. Why would you need statistics? I don't think anyone who has been to Iskcon temples lately would disagree that 90% or more of Prabhupada's disciples are not in Iskcon. I'm suprised that you would want data to confirm this obvious fact.

Co-operate doesn't mean that some people take the position as infallible God like beings who gather an army of blind followers ready to do anything that "guru" asks of them. Co-operate doesn't mean fascism. Fascism is "a system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism". Mussolini called fascism "corporatism". His fascism was marked by the control of the country by the corporate leaders with help from the government, it's essentially a form of plutocracy.

If a guru in Iskcon has enough followers and wealth then history has shown us that they set themselves up in mini fascist regimes. The people who provide wealth are then given leadership positions along with the guru, by the guru. Essentially after Srila Prabhupada left the zonal acaryas each set up their own plutocratic fascist regime. When some of the prominent disciples of Srila Prabhupada raised a stink and after the disrepute some of the zonal acaryas fell into, then Iskcon allowed more gurus. Bhakti Tirtha was one of those. The same thing continued to happen as before. Those gurus with enough charisma and wealthy followers gained more prominence then others with less charisma and wealth. The way Iskcon is run is that there is usually a GBC who runs his zone like a fascist plutocrat. If that GBC is a guru then he has more power. If he has a lot of waelth coming in then he has even more power.

Co-operation doesn't mean that everyone is supposed to accept the dictates of the leaders. When Srila Prabhupada said that the GBC were to be given managerial control over Iskcon, that didn't mean that they were to be Iskcon's rulers. Srila Prabhupada specified what the duties of the GBC were to be. From the direction of management written in 1970:

6. The primary objective of the GBC is to organize the opening of new Temples and to maintain the established Temples.

7. Advice will be given by the GBC in cases of real property purchases, which will be in the name of ISKCON, INC. (Trucks or other vehicles will be purchased in the name of the local president).

The GBC was never given spiritual authority nor were they given authority to rule over the activities of temple presidents. Their job was to see to it that Iskcon as a whole was going on smoothly and to help out with the financing and manning of new temples as well as assisting temple presidents when needed. Temple presidents were supposed to manage temples, the GBC was supposed to make sure everything in general was going on smoothly, they were supposed to be an oversight commitee which had the responsibility of keeping tabs on the whole movement whereas the temple presidents could concentrate on their own temples.

What happened is that first the zonal acaryas took complete control over everything in their zone, temples, devotees, funds, direction. They were the authority, period. After that system fell apart the GBC's and prominent gurus took that position of complete control over temples, devotees, funds, and direction.

The system Srila Prabhupada set up was the system he asked his followers to co-operate with. After Srila Prabhupada left that system changed into a fascist plutocracy. Co-operate from then on meant submission to the leaders.

I know many of your godbrothers and know much of the history, but guess what? I do not care so much for history-past is past, i prefer to stay in the present and hope for a bright future. People change(hopefully for the better) and I know many made mistakes, but most rectified such. It is actually an offense to bear grudges and hold opinions based on the past( see Bhagavad Gita)-see if indeed people have changed first. I could tell you things i know, but wish to dwell on the positives rather than dwell on the negatives, unlike you it seems, for your article is nothing short of denouncing iskcon as a failure. I have had really bad things happen to me also-but I am still here trying to get on with my KC life despite it all.

So you believe that let the past be ignored? Hope for a bright future? You claim that "holding opinions" on the past is against the teachings of the Gita? I seem to remember the Gita as being all about Arjuna not wanting to fight his relatives who had usurped the kingdom unlawfully. I don't remember Krishna telling Arjuna to forget the past, to have no opinion about the past and just try to get along with the current rulers. Do you? If you want to live life with blinders on, go ahead. Others may want to be more proactive in wanting to change things for the better. The past has shown us that Iskcon leadership has displayed qualities which are not qualities of uttama adhikaris. The decisions that they have made have severly damaged Iskcon's reputation the world over. If the people who were part of those decisions are left in power and worshipped as being as good as God, what does that say about the spiritual integrity of Iskcon?

We are not talking about the Boy Scouts and pack leaders. We are talking about people who have taken the position and are being promoted to be God's messenger's on earth. People who are promoted as being so close to God that you must surrender to them and be their slave. People's lives are being asked to be given over to other people who claim or at least pose as people on the highest level of God consciousness, who pose as intimate lovers of God, who pose as people who are giving a direct line or darshan to God.

That may be all fun and games for you, it may be something worth supporting for you, you may want to ignore the signs that point to the foolishness of such beliefs, that may be your destiny, but don't demand that everyone else join the fools parade and go along with the charade of the emperors new clothers.

According to your philosophy and outlook expressed in your article you propose the following

- disciples of Prabhupada who are gurus should not be considered pure but conditioned
- disciples of such Gurus should be sceptical towards them and not hold them in high esteem
-the gbc is not to be trusted
-iskcon is failing
-persons like myself are in illusion and need your help to see things as they are

the above being the case, if you are right-then we are in big trouble.... why are we wasting our time????? but the converse is that you are wrong, making a mountain out of a molehill and holding grudges because you yourself are not in a position of power-hence the website you run, to "show the world " how iskcon is a bad place (according to your experience and perception which is relative for you must also be conditioned if the gurus are....)

The gurus who are not speaking directly with God should admit that, don't you agree? Why should people be accepted as the highest level vaisnava if in reality they are not?

The reality is we have heard it all before swamiji. When the zonal acaryas were in control their leading disciples and sycophants spoke exactly like you, they huffed and puffed, but then when their gurus fell into disrepute, one by one, the whole thing was exposed as a lesson in blind faith. What then of your insistence on absolute blind faith in people who take the position of diksa gurus in Iskcon? Have you learned nothing?

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

-George Santayana

Posted by Rocana dasa @ 10/11/2005 12:32 PM PST

Dear Hari dasa,

You wrote: "you have revealed yourself and the tru nature of this site ... one word ... rtvik"

Prabhu, please educate yourself about my philosophical positions before throwing out that tired old accusation. I have been called a "rtvik" by practically every ISKCON-ite I've ever debated. They usually start calling me that when they feel they're losing the debate. Never mind the fact that I've never been a rtvik, and have written a strong rebuttal against rtvik-ism. I know it's much easier to just call me names than to deal with the actual points I'm making, but please make an effort to address the real issues at hand. In the meantime, you'll find my anti-rtvik paper here: Church of Rtvik.

Posted by Pandu dasa (repost) @ 10/11/2005 12:22 PM PST

This posting came from Pandu dasa's blog, Opposite Rule:

Hare Krishna. Yesterday Hari das (BTS) sent an e-mail to Bhaktimarga Swami complaining about me. It resulted from the conversation I posted this morning. Below is my response, which I sent to both Hari das and Bhaktimarga Swami. The e-mail from Hari das is divided into block quotes in my reply, but I’m pretty sure it’s all there except for his signature. Hare Krishna.

///////////////

Hare Krishna. My comments are below.

—–Original Message—– From: hari das [mailto:abeggars_son@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 1:51 PM To: Pandu (das) BMS (Gita Nagari, PA - US) Subject: regarding pandu dasa

Dear Bhakti Marg Maharaja PAMHO,AGTSP!

My name is Hari dasa, I am a disciple of Srila Bhakti Tirtha Swami. I am really sorry to disturn you via email as you more than likely have had many others before me writing you about this.

I happened across a website - www.harekrsna.com/sun which suprised me with the sheer volume of attacks against my Guru. I engaged in discussions with your disciple Pandu das after he stated that “he fears I am being duped”, for brevity i am not including whole quotes but can provide them if needed.

My concern is that Pandus concerns are not getting aired in the right manner, nor through the right channels as his outbursts against BTS and disciples are more than public thereby dangerous for a new comer to iskcon to hear.

I am totally opposed to this idea of “right channels,” and the more I hear this kind of talk, the more it appears that ISKCON is ashamed of itself and is therefore obsessed with keeping secrets. Bhakti Tirtha Swami, and perhaps other gurus, are portrayed as “pure devotees,” and as such should in theory be free from faults. A man who is being portrayed as worshipable should be able to be scrutinized by those who are being pressured to worship him. Otherwise it is only blind following. Instead we were told that Bhakti Tirtha Swami was equal to Vasudeva Datta and Jesus; and no one is allowed to question it. Of course Bhakti Tirtha Swami had many great achievements, but to hear a devotee comparing himself favorably with Sri Krishna Caitanya’s personal associates seemed rather arrogant.

While we were hearing such deification of Bhakti Tirtha Swami by himself and his supporters, he was giving high honors to an unrepentant child molester, who was also terribly crude in manner and an obvious liar. I privately asked the other Gita-nagari board members, and Leslie asked the other Child Protection Team member, (all of whom are disciples of BTS) if anyone knew how Bhakti Tirtha Swami viewed the issue. Weeks went by, and although we repeated our inquiries, they would not look into the matter. Finally, after MONTHS of losing sleep and having headaches thinking about this, I asked in a large group of BTSwami’s disciples, and in response I was threatened with violence by a Gita-nagari temple board member and condemned by several others. Later, when the Gita-nagari temple and community boards decided to get me out of my elected position as a community board member, they made a conspiracy, having several secret meetings convened to develop a means to impeach me. I also caught several of these board members in lies. Finally, sickened by seeing all these so-called brahmanas lie to me, I resigned from the community board and severed my ties with Gita-nagari. It is quite apparent by all of this that Gita-nagari has become a base for Bhakti-Tirtha’s fanatical cult. They call it aparadha to speak about what happened, but I would rather be an honorable dog than a dishonest brahmana disgracing the sacred thread.

As I see it, for newcomers to hear only the exaggerated positive aspects of ISKCON gurus, with unbiased discussions of character censored — that is the real danger. Those who come to ISKCON looking for truth should not have it hidden from them. There is so much pressure to surrender to a guru in ISKCON, and if that guru has mundane ambitions then the disciple becomes badly cheated in this relationship; and as in my case, others who are not disciples of that guru are also negatively affected. This can have far reaching psychological consequences and can cause the disciple to become opposed to ISKCON, as has happened many times in the past. Truth is said to be the last leg of dharma; but for many ISKCON members, this leg also seems quite lame.

The other concern I have is that when all this happened at Gita Nagari, it was the most sensitive of times- BTS was leaving his body and Pandu brought all this up and was surpised at the reaction. I hope one day Pandu could see how this was the worst possible time to pronounce politics at the ears of BTS disciples.

I did not choose the time to raise these issues, which are not politics, but matters of safety and spiritual integrity. Bhakti-Tirtha Swami dropped this in my lap as he was leaving his body, and I resent the repeated accusation that I brought this up. I was doing my duty as an elected community leader, looking out for threats to the community’s wellbeing. I do acknowledge that Bhakti Tirtha Swami was probably mentally incompetent at the time, although Radhanatha Swami was proclaiming from the Vyasaasana that he was completely clear and mentally strong to the end. Also Radhanatha Swami was himself promoting Vakresvara Pandit, even after Vakresvara was again found guilty of child molestation, having lost his appeal on June 8, 2005. I had not only the right, but also the duty to make issue of the fact that this dishonest and unrepentant child molester was invited to our community, especially when he was intending to stay and was being trusted with young ladies and children in the forest. This was a dangerous situation, and the ISKCON leadership who participated were totally irresponsible about it; and the excuses that I was eventually given were so ridiculous as to be shameful.

It may be traumatic for BT Swami’s disciples to have lost his physical presence, but death should be no surprise, and his was obviously a long time coming. However, it was a big surprise for me to find out that more than 500 children have been physically and sexually abused in ISKCON. That’s the real news item. Bhakti Tirtha Swami’s disciples consistently minimize the abuse of these children, and the impact that this has on ISKCON and its mission to glorify Sri Krishna on behalf of Srila Prabhupada. It’s always, “it was such a bad time for Pandu to discuss this.” Nonsense! It was such a bad time for Bhakti Tirtha and Radhanatha Swamis to glorify an unrepentant child molester when ISKCON was just bankrupted by 535 children suing ISKCON for $400 million, resulting in a $9.5 million settlement. Does Hari das write to the Washington Post and other mainstream news agencies and tell them not to write about the child abuse in ISKCON, how it will harm the “kanisthas?” If ISKCON wants a good reputation, then it should conduct itself properly, not try to censor those who comment on their feelings after being disappointed. Sooner or later everyone gets confronted with the truth. I would argue that sooner is better.

Hari das, Instead of hating the messenger, why don’t you use your voice against the real criminals in ISKCON, those who raped and tortured the Vaishnavas’ children and those responsible for allowing it? By speaking openly and honestly about ISKCON’s problems such as these, I’m doing my part to prevent such crimes from continuing. You, by defending those who honor child molesters, are perpetuating the problems and driving principled and conscientious devotees away.

As his Guru, I hope that maybe you could suggest some points for him to consider if you havent already done so. He has upset many and continues to write-he needs to be councelled or at least have some one to talk to about all this from an unbiased perspective. Iskcon does not need all these things happening, least of all disciples of a Guru who just left his body.

In the matter of counseling, personally I feel quite fine already (though being repeatedly tattled upon by brainwashed cult members trying to control me gets me a little irritated). However, Leslie and I have been waiting a long time for a GBC or some other big leader to come to Gita-nagari to help address the issues that have arisen in the past several months, although it appears that isn’t happening. (Bhaktimarga Swami, Any word on that?) Instead, through my writings I have found many devotees whom I can talk to, who are of like mind, who understand what I’ve been through, and who are sympathetic. It has been quite therapeutic to know that there are so many out there who are supportive of my writing (which, as the archives reveal, I began with the hope of documenting how great life is as a Hare Krishna in ISKCON). The overwhelming majority of devotees who have written to me have thanked me for having the courage to speak about what’s happened and how I feel about it. I’m convinced that I’m doing a good thing, writing about what I find as I search for Sri Krishna.

Hare Krsna

Sincerely, Pandu das

Posted by Jahnava dd @ 10/11/2005 08:52 AM PST

Sun Blog posting are only deleted if they are purposely offensive and/or they contain one-liner 'cracks' devoid of philosophical or practical statements and unrelated to the thread. That was the case in the few one-liner's that were recently deleted here.

Thank you.

Posted by Pandu das @ 10/11/2005 08:52 AM PST

It's nice to dwell on the positives; but how did that help when kids were getting raped and tortured in the gurukulas?

Are we paying a $9.5 million settlement so we can pretend it didn't happen or was insignificant?

Posted by Devadeva dasi @ 10/11/2005 07:26 AM PST

Hare Krishna--

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

I am no one, yet I simply beg all of you, please stop. Srila Prabhupada wanted us all to behave like ladies and gentlemen.

This is all just the croaking of toads. None of this is bringing any of us closer to Krishna.

Please, let us focus on Hari Katha. Our movement surely needs it.

Humbly, your fallen servant, Devadeva dasi

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/11/2005 06:10 AM PST

okay rocan prabhu, below is my reply, you replied to me so i request you reply to this
for all to see

OPEN LETTER TO ROCAN DAS-FROM HARI DASA
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Rocan Prabhu
PAMHO,AGTSP!

Thank you for sending such a lengthy response to my articles. I said I wouldnt write another article but the tone of your article and the information contained therein was against our sidhanta and contained many points worthy of contestion. For brevities sake, as unlike your goodself, i have other things to do than to spend 1-2 hours churning out articles, i have picked out a few points which i will contest and humbly request you answer then as you see fit.

1) The real ISKCON includes all of Srila Prabhupada's followers, the majority of whom are not participating in the present day institution going by the name ISKCON

-so more are out of iskcon than in?(please show statistics) it makes one a real follower of Prabhupada to not be active in the society by means of preaching, donating funds, doing regular service? how is this confirmed by Prabhupadas own words and those of sastra? Prabhupada said just before he left "your love for me will be shown by how you CO OPERATE WHEN I AM GONE".
How is not participating co operating? please answer this?

2)Hari dasa personifies so many over-incubated disciples found in ISKCON today, who have been sheltered from real life.

-how is that prabhu? you do not know what i have seen , heard and felt during my 15 years in iskcon. I know many of your godbrothers and know much of the history, but guess what? I do not care so much for history-past is past, i prefer to stay in the present and hope for a bright future. People change(hopefully for the better) and I know many made mistakes, but most rectified such. It is actually an offense to bear grudges and hold opinions based on the past( see Bhagavad Gita)-see if indeed people have changed first. I could tell you things i know, but wish to dwell on the positives rather than dwell on the negatives, unlike you it seems, for your article is nothing short of denouncing iskcon as a failure. I have had really bad things happen to me also-but I am still here trying to get on with my KC life despite it all.

3)My frequently expressed position is that the interests of the second generation disciples are better served if they have the opportunity to experience reality, in the form of hearing legitimate viewpoints which go beyond their own cloistered sentiments

-what exactly is your position prabhu? you only edit a minimally read website who's sole aim is to "expose" people for what you believe them to be. According to your philosophy and outlook expressed in your article you propose the following

- disciples of Prabhupada who are gurus should not be considered pure but conditioned
- disciples of such Gurus should be sceptical towards them and not hold them in high esteem
-the gbc is not to be trusted
-iskcon is failing
-persons like myself are in illusion and need your help to see things as they are

the above being the case, if you are right-then we are in big trouble.... why are we wasting our time????? but the converse is that you are wrong, making a mountain out of a molehill and holding grudges because you yourself are not in a position of power-hence the website you run, to "show the world " how iskcon is a bad place (according to your experience and perception which is relative for you must also be conditioned if the gurus are....)


4)Hari dasa and all those he represents should understand that many of those he fault-finds have courage, conviction, and the skill to communicate. They have taken the time to express themselves and they speak for many other Vaisnavas.


- and what is the tone expressed? doubt, sceptical, and very doom and gloom. how is that going to help iskcon if indeed it is in trouble? how is judging the way you do going to help anyone. the only thing i do understand from what you have written is that it is not based on sastra or Prabhupadas own quotes but from a bitter mind that is harboring stuff from the past and will not let go of it unless he sees justice done. and the justice you seek is the acceptance that you are right and the gurus and gbc are wrong. Majority rules it seems and you and your kind are definatly in the minority for the parampara and iskcon itself continues to preach and survive. Those that have left, that is their problem how they could not see how to make a difference themselves. Setting up websites wherein anyone can say what they like because they do not have the courage to say it in a physical forum-it is nothing but cowardice and impersonal.


5)Not unlike the dharmadvajis mentioned by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Hari dasa has adopted the persona of a self-appointed crusader venturing out to defend his “Jagat-Guru”, HH Bhakti Tirtha Swami Krsnapada. His defense of Bhakti Tirtha Swami reveals that he assigns the same spiritual status to Bhakti Tirtha as he does to Srila Prabhupada. Hari dasa has equated Srila Prabhupada’s purported sastras to Bhakti Tirtha Swami’s science fiction. He equates Srila Prabhupada's worldwide travels to Bhakti Tirtha Swami's tours. How did he come to embrace these misconceptions? He has been a disciple of Bhakti Tirtha Swami for over ten years. Didn’t Bhakti Tirtha have ample opportunity to correct him on such misconceptions? Hari dasa seems to be oblivious of the reality that he displays, for all the world to witness, the very essence of what we are trying to point out to be wrong. By his words, he demonstrates himself as uneducated, immature and offensive to Srila Prabhupada, while proudly presenting himself as a senior disciple of HH Bhakti Tirtha Swami.

-since when it is offensive to Srila Prabhupada to have 100% faith in the guru who have him the holy name and linked him to the parampara? since when is it offensive to follow the process laid down by the acaryas and sastras? the process dicates that one accept guru, hear from him and take initiation and Krsna Himself says that one who is a devotee of His devotee is actually a devotee.

There is a saying "love me-love my dog", so in this spirit-I too love Prabhupada and his sincere disciples who serve him with mind body and soul. your judgements bear no weight on me nor affect my faith. you do not have the adhikara nor the sastric back up to convince me that having faith in my Guru's is wrong, nor would i allow you to weaken my faith in the process. You want me to have faith in your perception of the process which is outlined from feelings of anger and resentment.
That is not Krsna consciousness. It is absolute and one must have absolute faith in ones Guru and the way things are now is the Prabhupada is not longer here physically so one has to choose one of his representatives-it is not your business to try to interfere with the faith of those that have made a choice unless there is a sign that the guru is fallen. Under the circumstances and evidence- Bhakti Tirtha Maharaja always followed the regs, chanted his rounds and did his service(wether you approve of the nature of it or not) and at the end of his life, he was surrounded by devotees chanting and was holding Salagramas in his hands. So he remembered the Lord at the time of death and so went back to Godhead as it is stated in Bhagavad Gita.
So, just say you are right- even so- BTS left the world in full Krsna consciousness which means he went back home, that makes him bonafide now even if he wasnt before.

And as far as the personal training i got from BTS? He told me to follow the process and to avoid bad association. If i were to follow your instructions then I would be going against those 2 essential principles.

Oh, and one last question- do you have ANY positive things to say about iskcon, its leaders and initiating Guru's? I would be encouraged if you did...

I hope you are well and anxiously await to see your reply

dasanudas
Hari dasa

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/11/2005 05:48 AM PST

rocan prabhu

why do you delete all my comments and refuse to post my reply to your very unsual apassidhantic letter?

you have revealed yourself and the tru nature of this site

one word

rtvik

Posted by A Sheltered Disciple @ 10/10/2005 09:38 PM PST

Re:
Mentality of a Sheltered Disciple

Hare Krishna,

All glories to Srila Prabhupada and the assembled devotees.
It seems that we are losing the focus of what this movement that is so dear to all of us is all about.
Yes Rocana prabhu maybe Hari Das is a little blindsided with love for his chosen guru H. H. Bhakti Tirtha Maharaja, but your article reeked of a verbal tounge lashing that seems to be out of place for a person like yourself who has received the mercy of Srila Prabhupada.
Aren't we all in this material world together, and therefore all at fault?
Why not adopt an attitude of helping and guiding the conditioned souls, instead of tearing them down.
Hari Das's ten years of service is a long time to give to any endeavor, I believe a certain level of encouragement is due, otherwise why should anyone feel encouraged to stay.
Srila Prabhupada tolerated many offenses from us in our neophyte state, but was always kind and forgiving, I think we could learn from that.
I admire what your trying to do in keeping the purity in ISKCON, 'Purity is the Force' 'Preaching is the Essence' but I beg you to tread lightly and offer our new devotees a positive direction.

Hari Bol.

Posted by shiva das @ 10/10/2005 05:15 PM PST

Some of the people who are posting here and who are apologists for Bhakti Tirtha Swami; this is for you.

When Hari Das posted his schedule of Bhakti Tirtha's travels and preaching to famous and important people, I wondered if all of those people who he touched were given the Spiritual Warrior books.

Think about it; the topics discussed by Bhakti Tirtha are considered by most intelligent people to be nonsense i.e UFOs, Atlantis, Mu, Alien overlords running secret societies, etc. These are considered to be by most intelligent people fringe conspiracy theories and wacko delusions.

So here we had a leader, a guru, a big time representative of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the Gaudiya sampradaya meeting with respectable world leaders giving them books on what they will most likely consider to be writings from the lunatic fringe.

Of course Bhakti Tirtha claims that he was using the old bait and switch. He claimed that his writings were usefull in appealing to a certain segment of the population who believe in those things.

Buuuutt...the problem is that he could not say that in his writings or lectures. He couldn't tell his readership and audience that what he was telling them was all a big scam in order to convert them to Hinduism, could he?

So everyone who recieved his writings or heard his lectures on those topics, if they were not members of the so called "lunatic fringe", then they would think that Bhakti Tirtha was a wacko, and also that the organization and philosophy he represents is wacko as well.

So in effect there are certainly many important people and not so important people who think that the Gaudiya sampradaya, and especially Iskcon, belongs to the lunatic fringe.

I'm sure that some people were attracted by Bhakti Tirtha's presentations. But how many have been convinced that Krishna consciousness is part of the lunatic fringe due to his presentations?

If Bhakti Tirtha was not an Iskcon leader, nor represented an "official" Gaudiya lineage as an "authorized spiritual master" handing down the teachings of the parampara, then there would be no problem. He would just be another UF0 New Agey type of conspiracy theorist, they're a dime a dozen.

But what effect does his literary repuation have on people who think that sort of stuff is the product of a wacko? They will naturally conclude that the organization he heads and which promotes him as a messenger from God, is also wacko.

The amount of people who believe in the stuff Bhakti Tirtha promoted is a very small number in relation to the number of people who think it is crazy. While it is true that in America there is an extraordinary number of people who believe in UFOs, that number drops precipitously when all of the rest of the sci-fi/fantasy/conspiracy stuff is added. And outside of America there is not so much belief in any of it, especially among Hindus and stable minded educated people.

In the late 1940's and 1950's when the Cold War was really heating up that was a time of a new age in technology, especially in aircraft and weaponry. After the famous radio show by Orson Wells of 'The War of the Worlds', it became noticed by the military and the CIA just how gullible people were when it came to stories of aliens. A large percentage of listeners believed the drama to be real news and that in fact aliens had landed and were killing people with their space ships. A panic ensued.

During the new technological age after WW2 when all the german scientists who had run Germany's rocket and jet programs had come over to work for the U.S government, there rather suddenly appeared in the sky around select military bases new proto type aircaft and weaponry. The U.S was investing heavily in new aircraft and weapons designs because of the new cold war with the Soviet Union.

That is when the UFO sightings began.

Stories of aliens and their advanced technology being captured by the U.S government became useful propaganda in order to create fear of the U.S military. If the Soviets or Chinese or any other "threat" believed that the American military was in contact with aliens and had access to advanced technology, then that would be just fine with the CIA and the military industrial complex.

In 1985, Ronald Reagan is on record saying that Gorbachev and himself during a meeting had discussed the way in which "all the peoples of the world, including the United States and Russia, would unite in the face of an invasion from another planet".

In 1999 the French Government set-up a major task force to explore the social, political, religious, and military implications of the "extraterrestrial hypothesis". The existence of intelligent extraterrestrial beings was "quasi-certain", and stressed the need to "inform all decision-makers and persons of responsibility", and "undertake diplomatic action towards the United States for cooperation on this capital question".

On a visit to Russia, President Clinton was asked by students if the American military had a crashed UFO, his stuttered response was "No... well, I don't know, they won't tell me.

It's all what is known as a psy-op among the intelligence community. A psychological operation aimed at creating a specific mindset or belief in a person or population which is not factual. The entire history of the UFO movement in the U.S has been prodded along by the CIA and the military, they have purposefully played cat and mouse with Ufologists, pretending to be hiding the "Truth" about aliens. When in reality they want the public to believe.

For a history of the UFO movement see:

http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/10011/10011.ch05.html

Posted by Vijay @ 10/10/2005 10:15 AM PST

"In response to Vijay, are we to understand that no criticism should be levied against ISKCON unless one is a pure devotee? It is not an offense to call a thief a thief, or is it? "

No its not an offence - in my opionion may be the way its done should be improved especially as its the age of quarrel and hypocracy. Prabhupadas books talk about this, and we can also learn from his example cant we?

"To call Pragosh's criticism "flippant" merely exposes Vijay's lack of historical knowledge on the subject and an unwillingness to accept that many of the so called gurus have engaged in serious philosophical deviations in the name of preaching Krsna Consciousness. Have you read "Spiritual Warrior I" or anything recent by Satsvarup das?"

Im quite well aquainted with the past and I am willing to accept that alot of deviations have happened, are still happening and will continue to happen.

I have no problem admiting that and have admitted that already.
Ive read spirtual warrior 1, when I first came to KC that was one of the first non prabhupada books I read, and it did help me as I was into that sort of stuff, but have no interest after getting a little deeper in KC.

"A responsible follower of Srila Prabhupada cannot sit idly by and allow such things to go on without making a protest. Silence implies consent."

Fine make the protest I never said dont. Just learn how to do it according to prabhupada's teachings so that you get the best resaults from you protest, and do it bearing in mind how prabhupada practically protested and how much time he spent on such things. Else theres the danger that we may be getting involved in the subtle snares of self ritousness and politics in the name of kc. Prabhupada never felt the need to write about his godbrothers after their departure or even while living to write essays on how corrupt the gaudiya math and how they are not following did he? He spent as much time on it as neccessary and the rest he led by example. Anger can blind us to what is actually needed. Simple for the simple

"So tell us Vijay, who you are and what are you doing to spread Krsna Consciousness that gives you the right to criticize Pragosh and Rocana "

As stated above my point wasnt that no one can say anything unless pure, just get the balance right and learn to do it in the way prabhupada taught. Im sure Rocana prabhu you and Pragosh prabhu are nice devotees and have at least 3 times more experince than me in years and way more in terms of service.

Posted by Ragaputra dasa @ 10/10/2005 09:07 AM PST

In response to Vijay, are we to understand that no criticism should be levied against ISKCON unless one is a pure devotee? It is not an offense to call a thief a thief, or is it? Perhaps Vijay should examine his own motives. The holier than thou one upsmanship could continue for ever, with each retort more sanctimonious than the last. I know Pragosh dasa and Rocana dasa and I also lived through the horror of the "Zonal Acarya" fiasco, so I can judge their credibility. To call Pragosh's criticism "flippant" merely exposes Vijay's lack of historical knowledge on the subject and an unwillingness to accept that many of the so called gurus have engaged in serious philosophical deviations in the name of preaching Krsna Consciousness. Have you read "Spiritual Warrior I" or anything recent by Satsvarup das?A responsible follower of Srila Prabhupada cannot sit idly by and allow such things to go on without making a protest. Silence implies consent. So tell us Vijay, who you are and what are you doing to spread Krsna Consciousness that gives you the right to criticize Pragosh and Rocana (adopting your requirements)? If you indeed practice what you preach, I'll sit down and shut up. Convince me that you are not just another poseur who can't wait to hear what he's going to say next.

Posted by Vijay @ 10/10/2005 03:49 AM PST

Any disciple will defend his guru or his siksa gurus who have natured and raised him, especially when devotees like pragosh prabhu who flippantly make statements without evidence as he did in one of his articles.

I also think you may benefit by trying to save the worlds 6 billion population than debating on the character of your god brothers and everyone else in the name of helping others (There are better ways to help). You seem to have a mission other than what prabhupada had. Prabhupada did not see fit to regularly write letters analysing the broken institution set up by bhaktisidhanta swami nor did he stick around criticising his god brothers, instead he saw the bigger picture and continued preaching, your mentality is the quarrelling god brothers who engaged in fault finding and lost the plot on the purpose of mahaprabhu's mission.

If prabhupada was like your self then im afraid you nor I would be in krishna consciousness. If you see a void in the number of pure devotees then please try and become a pure devotee common people like me are always looking for someone they can follow and be inspired by. Its nice you see prabhupada very highly as written in your sampradaya acarya articles, if you love him so much then please do something he'll be pleased with and follow in the mood he had, which was absorption in giving krishna to everyone. Unfortunately we have a lot of analysers but not enough pure devotees. Rather than blaming others for not being perfect and other imperfect people following them I implore you to become perfect and follow in the mood of your guru rather than concoct your own justifications for attacking and your agenda of exposing thinking that this will please prabhupada.

Prabhupada had many of his disciples deviating I don’t believe he was interested in "exposing" these devotees instead he worked to bring them back and help them. He only criticised his god brothers when he saw a danger to his disciples and that was very occasionally compared to the amount of preaching he done. Maybe srila prabhupada was also sentimental? Or maybe he was a true vaishnava and sensitive to what everyone needs, he criticised but that wasn’t a problem as there he was always there for people to have faith in. I am not against the truth being told but please do it in a vaishnava fashion recognising the good and the bad giving devotees a replacement, rather than just tearing down and also bearing in mind that you are still conditioned so maybe you’ll write in a slightly more humble way. Please forgive me for my offences which I undoubtedly made saying my relative truth.

“We are Vaisnava devotees, not politicians. So these things must be stopped, plotting. Your merit stands far above theirs, you have done some tangible work to please me by spreading this Krishna Consciousness message in New Orleans, that is the test. Let them do something first, then we shall see what is their criticism. Simply criticizing and no work, that is the business of inferior men. So do not be disturbed by them, go on with your work, increasing more and more. Never mind the jackals howl.
Hoping this meets you in good health.

Your ever well-wisher,
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami”

Posted by Aspiring friend @ 10/10/2005 01:16 AM PST

Respected Bhakti Vikas Maharaj,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Hare Krishna!
I deeply deeply respect you for your desire to adhere to Krishna's words and your boldness and courage to openly bring out a discrepancy.

your servant

Posted by Ragaputra dasa @ 10/09/2005 07:46 PM PST

Regarding the deification of the current crop of gurus, I am reminded of the reply of one of Alexander the Great's generals when informed that Alexander had commanded that he be worshipped as a god; "If he want's to be worshipped as a god, then let him BE a god."

Posted by Nitya Siddha dasa @ 10/09/2005 12:14 PM PST

RE:"Time is running out"my final article.
I sincerely hope so,as this is the kind of scentimental and sychophantical eulogy that we can all do without.I wish some devotees would get real,instead of being self deluded misguided scentimental sychophants.Sure we can all appreciate that BTS did some service to Krishna,but then so has the guy who washes the dishes every Sunday at the ISKCON Sunday programme,and yet we never even here his name.Do we all really need to be patronised and told just how "great"and "humble"and how much service etc. etc. so and so has done and that's why you think we should all think the same and agree with you?Well I've got some news for you my friend some of us don't and niether shall we ever do.To base your opinion of someone's character and personality above others on the basis of your own scentiments and mental speculation is very neophyte and somewhat childish.Whereas some of the blame for the current situation within Iskcon's Hierarchy can be laid firmly at the feet of the leaders I also feel that persons such as yourself within the commmunity are fueling the problems to a certain extent with this kind of Kindergarten mentality.
Also in your article you speculate that somehow BTS was able to take away devotees and the world's community's Karma ? What is your basis for making such a statement and what proof or scientific evidence can you present us with to prove this was the case,or do you think that we're all supposed to be stupid and just accept such nonsense theories on face value?
My advice to you would be to stop being a scentimental fool and to base your future opinions on hard facts instead of mental speculation.Your attitude is very immature and typical of the same disciple/guru/personality cult worship mentality we see amongst the followers of some other bogus gurus.I will not mention any names but I think the reader will draw his own conclusions.

Posted by cosmosis @ 10/06/2005 10:02 AM PST

wow Swami, far out stuff- check this channeling stuff out from PANDU....quite lengthy be patient and read closely dude!

August 30, 2005

Channelling session with Our Friends

[Note from Sun Editors: The entire text, which was cross-posted here, has been deleted. Sun Blog postings should have a majority of content that is authored by the poster, with paste-in content that is minimal in comparison. Please link to outside content you're not directly commenting on, rather than pasting it in here. Thank you.]

Posted by Bhakti Vikas swami's at pamho @ 10/05/2005 11:12 PM PST

FROM: Bhakti Vikas swami (PAMMHO.NET) posted December 20, 2004.

Dear Bhakti Tirtha swami, Please accept my obesiances.

I am very sorry for criticizing your book "Spirital Warrior I." Who am
I to dispute that the world's biggest leaders are engaged in human
sacrifices to the Devil? They probably are. We all know this is why
George Bush gives Vladamir Putin that special "Texas hot sauce" when
they meet. And who am I to say that we humans were not placed on earth
by alien spaceships on the continent Mu, before it sank into the
Atlantic ocean, and it is now known as Atlantis. And our ancestors
escaped by floating off on giant leaves, to England? And we are a
colony of space alien's experiments? This all seems quite possible.
And who am I to say that the leaders of the Trilateral commission are
not really other aliens from the lower planets? Maybe they are. And
who am I to say that you are not really an African prince from Motubu?
Maybe you are.

And who am I to disagree with you that when the next asteroid passes
earth, named Zectoid five, is not really a space ship which going to
gather up the faithful citizens of planet Earth? And this will give
the faithful Zectoid-ites special space-capable bodies so they can
float off to Jupiter and meet Glankon one, the leader of the
interplanetary space commission. And this leaves the rest of us earth
citizens behind to fight an invasion of "Waroc," the mechanically
aided insect - like aliens from the next asteroid, named "Tweeble
1006"? This is all probably going to occur. Why should we GBC ever
doubt your holy predictions, which you conducted using the special
kwabble tree from the African garden planetarium in Washington DC?
Sorry, I have to run off now, going to the store to get my "Waroc"
language decoder ring as we speak! Just in case the invasion starts
soon, I need to be able to say, "Hold your fire, master Waroc insect
race, I am not an employee of 'Bug Hitters.' I will be your house
cleaner servant." Thanks for warning us! Your servant, soon to be
Waroc interstellar space commander number seven, Bhakti Vikas Swami.

This is a public message from Bhakti Vikas Swami December 17, 2004

I offer obeisances and apologies to all devotees who have been
offended by my recent posting regarding my philosophical differences
with HH Bhakti Tirtha Maharaja. It was not my intention to offend but
to clarify that my stance had not changed. I did so publicly and
succinctly because quite a few devotees have commented or asked me
about it. I reiterate that these differences are primarily
philosophical and I pray not to harbor bad feelings toward anyone,
especially a devotee of the Lord. Although philosophical clarity needs
to be upheld, this is undoubtedly a difficult time for Maharaja and
those close to him, and my posting seems to have made it more
difficult. I apologize for that and hereby withdraw the posting. [end
of statement]

My Angry Letter to Bhakti Tirtha Swami
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 06:50 +0200
From: "Bhakti Vikasa Swami"
To: "Bhakti-tirtha Swami"

I have been warned that my angry letter to BTS will cause spiritual
suicide. But I have reason to be angry. Many devotees around the world
are being spiritually murdered by believing BTS's bizarre assertations
(in his widely distributed book Spiritual Warrior I), for instance
about "motherships" coming from "the fallen continents of Atlantis and
Mu"; Skull and Bones society controlling the world by conducting human
sacrifices; that the world was formerly ruled from Africa (not, as
sastra and Srila Prabhupada state, from India), etc.

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