Transcript of Kirtanananda-Jayapataka Video
BY: SUN STAFF
Mar 01, 2011 — CANADA (SUN) — Appended to a recent article by Rocana dasa, "Princes of the Zonal Acarya Kings", is a five-part video series entitled 'Peons of Perfidy: Augmenting the Guru Hoax', featuring an extended discussion between Kirtanananda and Jayapataka.
Bhakta Harry has now kindly provided a transcription of the discussion, making the content much more accessible for study and comment. Our thanks to Harry Prabhu for making this effort. The transcription has not been proofed to assure a verbatim transcription, but it should be very close. Readers are invited to let us know of any corrections.
FM: Jayapataka-Kirtanananda
Jayapataka: …and GBC matters then they discussed this guru thing. So I read all these different points how the Prabhupada's position through Vaisnava's position and the various shastric evidences that worshipping the guru and this is …and the Gaudiya Matha now has started daily guru puja following Prabhupada.
All: [Laughs]
Jayapataka: I never, you know, living in Mayapura, we always took the answer, Prabhupada took the answer, we established the standard. We don't follow the other Gaudiya Matha, we follow what makes the standard. I presented all these things but so then what happened was that they started to say that well. When they couldn't give any answers, so they called like one thing they said was well Prabhupada's disciples are more near, more mature in many ways you can say although that's and but Prabhupada said that they require to bow down to their guru every day and beg for forgiveness for their offences. So the, you know, grand disciples are much less advanced less, you know, more neophyte as the rules go. So then how much more do they need to bow down to their gurus to beg for forgiveness, for their offences?
Kirtanananda: Well then, you know, then he made the point, that because he was talking about guru sadhu and sastra and he said, it is not in, it is not, it wasn't said directly by Prabhupada. That we have to worship the spiritual master like this and it is not in sadhu and he said there is no more sastra. So then I remembered the verse by Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura that we sing every morning, the spiritual master is to be worshipped just like Krishna. And then he says, this is approved by all authorities.
Jayapataka: sakshad-hari samasta-sastrair… So I have likings from America, Rupanuga came to me and told me that we should have all the candidates for initiation take an exam. And I said.. he said Prabhupada had the a system and so then I. I asked him, you know that questions that Prabhupada would have asked. So he told me that three questions I have been doing that religiously and that is good advice anyhow. So the three questions, the first was. Why are you convinced that you want to serve the guru for your whole life and even life after life? The second one; why do you worship the spiritual master equal with God? Almost alike as you would worship God. And the third is; do you believe, why are you convinced that the guru speaks the absolute truth? So there you have a problem with the second question that you take at the time of initiation that why do you worship the guru, as, you know, as you worship God? So there in the thing is likely has had no discussion. Well they didn't have any answer and sometimes people would kind of stoop down to the point of just saying why you are so attached to your seat? Why are you simply defending your seat? So even that, you know, fully stems pretty stubborn guys.
Kirtanananda: My seat?
Jayapataka: Not my seat, you're not [indistinct]
Kirtanananda: Sri guru, sri guru is the representative of Krishna. The problem is, you see, they don't understand the philosophy of disciplic succession. That it is the duty, it is the service of the spiritual master to accept whatever a disciple offers. If he offers a leaf, a fruit a little water that's all right thats what we give to Krishna on behalf of the disciples. If he offers a golden car, a vyasasana that is 10 feet high, that's all right we can accept it and offer it to Krishna. The spiritual master, Prabhupada said was like a peon. He is taking what the disciple offers and gives it to Krishna. Like a postman. The postman doesn't discriminate between the letter that has no money in it and the letter that has $1 million in it. They are both taken to their destination according to the address on the front. If the postman refuses to accept, "Oh, I can't take this because it isn't a million-dollar check." Is he a good postman?... Then he's a useless postman.
Jayapataka: What takes a disciple offer whether it is big or small .. or you know whatever it is..
Kirtanananda: That is up to the disciple. But you cannot tell a disciple you cannot offer. I say it is wrong to tell a disciple you have to offer. You have to offer the best you have that's all. If you are poor man, then you offer something small. If you are a rich man, you offer something big, opulent. Because that is the principle that we have to give our best. Someone said God doesn't look at how much you give but he looks at how much you keep back. Krishna says he is satisfied with a leaf or a flower but if you want to offer Krishna a leaf or a flower and for yourself fix halva, rasagula…
All: [Laughs]
Kirtanananda: Prabhupada said that report … the problem is they don't know the philosophy.
Jayapataka: The thing is that after, after the discuss thing, then I really know, they did. I was the proprietor although I knew the Vrindavana pundits and everyone was there. So they didn't have any words, they didn't have any and there isn't any, I don't think but they didn't have any strong arguments in em, in terms of you know what we are doing is unauthorised or something.
Kirtanananda: Well just look at Satsvarupa's book. Satsvarupa, what does he quote? He hardly ever quotes Prabhupada. He quotes, Srivasa acarya, he quotes the Gaudiya Matha and he quotes the majority opinion. Now I never knew…
Follower: Srivasa acarya?
Kirtanananda: Srivasa acarya in Vrindavana, from Radha Raman temple.
Jayapataka: Well the other what is his name, ah?
Follower: Visvambara Swami?
Jayapataka: Visvambara Goswami.
Kirtanananda: Yeah, well anyway, those three. So, I never knew they were the authorities of Krishna consciousness.
Jayapataka: Prabhupada said that the three most dangerous things to our movement at least in India…
Kirtanananda: Caste Gosvamis..
Jayapataka: Caste Gosvamis in Vrindavana, his God brothers and the minicipality in Bombay. In Bombay I put up this proposal that we should not go outside of ISKCON to take any instruction which is already a GBC resolution. And all of the disciples of Prabhupada accepted that, except for that [indistinct] from Vrindavana. They take it as a recommendation other than a resolution, I don't know. I took.. no ISKCON guru is supposed to be called as a Srila. But then the bhakta will say Srila Narayana Maharaja.
Kirtanananda: [Laughs]
Jayapataka: [indistinct] And the problem is that I was preaching to the some disciples of Bhagavan who were visiting India and then because everyone was going to Narayana. They also went to Narayana but then I started to preach to them they should I take more shelter of Prabhupada movement, Prabhupada's book's. But they, once they get the habit, next thing they want to start going to Sai Baba.
Kirtanananda: Well the latest rumour I hear is that, that Tamala Krishna is going to move that we re-establish relations with or established relations with Sridhara … things have gotten a little crazy.
Jayapataka: The thing is after everything is said and done, I stayed up in Prabhupada's quarters there in Bombay and was chanting. I thought that somehow they are my God brothers I saw that it wasn't at least so much the philosophical point. Because if you breakdown the philosophy they don't have a very strong point but it was a point that considering the number of em, our guru or different leaders they have not lived up to their mark or whatever or. So for whatever reasons they just wanted to just concentrate on Prabhupada. So they, some people got very radical and they wanted to stop the worship of the guru and things like that. But I considered that, especially since in that Mayapura is like a world centre and. We have people coming from all over the world and the people, just like if the Indian people look at you and they are hungry or something. You don't want to eat, your just hung..you know. There are certain things, how can you accept worship of the people, even from your disciples if there are other people there who are visibly upset about that. So that…
Kirtanananda: I'll tell you how you do it, because I am not accepting it for myself.
Jayapataka: If you don't accept it for yourself then why?...
Kirtanananda: Then I am not concerned, I'm doing a service for Krishna. I am Krishna's representative for accepting service. If someone is envious that is not my problem.
Jayapataka: It's not only, I I there are some people that are envious, no doubt. But I was told…
Kirtanananda: If people were ignorant, it is not my problem. I can try to enlighten them but I don't have to perpetuate their ignorance.
Jayapataka: I thought that after considering in that it was better for the unity of ISKCON to move my guru puja to another place for the time being.
Kirtanananda: Now, I don't agree. Because you have slapped Prabhupada in the face.
Jayapataka: How?
Kirtanananda: First of all if he is the so-called founder acarya, that means to do things like he did it. What do you think founder acarya means, acarya means one who does by example. He taught us what is guru puja, he said guru puja was more important than mangala arotika.
Jayapataka: Guru puja is convenience…
Kirtanananda: Alright, and he taught us how to perform guru puja. He taught us to sing every day that the spiritual master should be worshipped just like Krishna. Do you keep Krishna in the closet?
Jayapataka: Not in the closet.
Kirtanananda: Well, worship Krishna, worship Krishna in your room. Worship Krishna in your room. And you might well offend the Christians, don't bring the dieties out where people can see them. They will say you are worshipping idols ...
Jayapataka: Why this is like, I went one temple and I…
Kirtanananda: You see, you become a party to their ignorance, by this and you help to promote them.
Jayapataka: I don't, by, Prabhupada would…
Kirtanananda: And your disciples are confused.
Jayapataka: My disciples are not confused. They are doing their daily guru puja, they are upkeeping everything.
Kirtanananda: But they lose their enthusiasm through…
Jayapataka: No, they become more enthusiastic…
Kirtanananda: No, I have not seen that. I've seen for instance in Satsvarupa's zone….
Jayapataka: They've stopped it…
Kirtanananda: Look, there are still told they can do it in their prayer, in their room.
Jayapataka: How? Well, I have, they have organised guru puja, I just, because they exist for the.. they go in to a fundamental thing for this matter it is not a permanent thing. But then we are all going to properly establish…
Kirtanananda: The same thing with the changing of Prabhupada's Gita…
Jayapataka: How is that?
Kirtanananda: They changed the Gita, now they are changing his guru puja after he established it. He said you become regular guru. He didn't say you become a new type of guru. He didn't say I am the only founder acarya guru. It will be just for me.
Jayapataka: I always thought that, ah they…
Kirtanananda: So he taught us how to perform it. Why shouldn't we follow Prabhupada's example?
Jayapataka: Before, this will actually allow a dialogue for unity to properly establish the system…
Kirtanananda: That is not unity. Prabhupada said what was our unity. Prabhupada said our unity and your chanting 16 rounds and I am chanting 16 rounds. You are following 4 regulative principles and I am following 4. Let them follow four regulative principles. They are not. A lot of those people who are big leaders on this thing are not following the four regulative principles. That is our unity. Unity in faults is no unity.
Jayapataka: Just like in, ah, in Prabhupada's palace you worship Prabhupada. Other people are not worshipping him, so in New Vrindavana you have a palace and you have the temple room. In Mayapura we have our complete samadhi but we have a temple. Once the samadhi is completed, I don't think they will be, I personally think that the puja, I don't find anything wrong with doing it and I defend it. There is nothing wrong with doing it in the temple. It is very natural to do it, we always did it there because we had always more than one guru and everyone always comes together in one place but eh.. at the best of time of people when they concentrate on Prabhupada..
Kirtanananda: But how does that concentrate on Prabhupada? You honour the follower by diminishing his son?
Jayapataka: You don't diminish the son. How does diminish the son …
Kirtanananda: But that's what they are doing.
Jayapataka: They are doing what I am saying that..
Kirtanananda: Then we have to teach them, if you want in part to honour Prabhupada, you honour his son. His actual follower, is the father more pleased when his son is not honoured so much? Tell me, if, what did Prabhupada say about pleasing a rich man? He said that was a very difficult thing but if you buy a five cent lollipop for his son, the father is pleased. Prabhupada personally wrote to me at new Vrindavana, he said that I am simply praying to Radha and Krishna that you will surpass me. Now, the mood of the disciple is, of course no one is equal to his guru. He never thinks that he can become equal to his guru. That is all right, that is a sentiment but Prabhupada said, "I want you to do more than I did." And we should try, didn't Prabhupada do more than Bhaktisiddhanta? Did Bhaktisiddhanta minimise because Prabhupada did more? Or is Bhaktisiddhanta glorified because what Prabhupada did? What did Prabhupada give the credit, what did he say was his greatness? "My greatness is coming from my Guru Maharaja." That is the disciplic succession. Whatever greatness you see in the present acarya is due to the past and whatever defects you see in the present acarya the blame goes to the previous acarya. So if they say that Prabhupada cannot have any sons equal to himself. That means he didn't have any potency. It is an insult, if we can say that Prabhupada had millions of sons. Then that is glorious.
Jayapataka: Well that's a phrase, Prabhupada, means one who has many prabhu's or many masters at his feet.
Kirtanananda: And that's what we want. We want to have qualified men, men who are a credit to Prabhupada. Not that we embrace this Christian philosophy, no one can be equal to our acarya.
Jayapataka: Just like Narahari, he said many things in that ah, in that ah..
Kirtanananda: Narahari is right on.
Jayapataka: Krishna-bhajanamrita.
All: [chuckle]
Jayapataka: Because em, ha, he said he could anticipate what was the problems in the future. One was, the first thing he dealt with was guru. And there will be confusion of who is the guru, how to deal with Vaishnava's and guru. And the second one was who is Krishna? Then of course for India, Gandhi(?) to who are the demigod how they relate with Krishna, and who is the shakti? Especially in Bengal, where shakti is a big thing.
Kirtanananda: Ha.
Jayapataka: But funny I just.. the guru…
Kirtanananda: That's excellent, I mean, that is almost exactly what I've been trying to say.
Jayapataka: Of course, there he did say that the previous guru's should get double. Double the worship.
Kirtanananda: Hum? No objection. Prabhupada gets about ..
Jayapataka: 10 times
Kirtanananda: 10 times, six times at least. He is worshiped six times a day, even if we worshiped once-a-day. I am not there for guru puja even once-a-day. I go maybe once a week for a couple of days. But guru puja is performed in the temple. Prabhupada is there for six pujas a day.. superfluous..
Jayapataka: Narahari also, he gave this elaborate description on how, if you know that someone is spiritually strong and you don't. Normally you don't give them proper worship..
Kirtanananda: That is a great offence..
Jayapataka: It's a very great offence, when you have to ..
Kirtanananda: To worship someone who is not so spiritually strong, foalbritely(?) You're making, you're giving them more worship than they really deserve. That is not much of a service but do not worship someone who is qualified, that is a great offence.
Jayapataka: I mean, I never really got into that. Then, of course, then he said but if you can't figure out who's a grand who is not a grand. After you give this whole a dozen verses or something [indistinct] ultimately you can't figure it out. You can't understand who is the master, who is not a master. Then it is like a ladylike gadget, some of the limbs are big some are small but all the waves are holy, so then you just respect everyone equally. In the beginning is that you stay safe..
Kirtanananda: Then you are worshipping shri guru. You are worshipping the spiritual master, who is manifest differently in different vessels. But your worship is for shri guru.
Jayapataka: Prabhupada, didn't he mention that the word as shri guru, like that? I mean he would always mention about worship the parampara, you approach the parampara. I was personally present when, am, when Prabhupada said that, how that whole problem came at New Vrindavana when the four sannyasis where there and he immediately came from America to India. From Japan right to India and he talked to eh, Acyutananda. A few days after that he called me in and he explained the whole thing. He, first he tested me to see if I was contaminated. [indistinct] Acyutananda to see if I was contaminated
Kirtanananda: That was through Sridhara.
Jayapataka: Then after he asked me some questions, I don't know what you know, he was talking about. And then he saw that I was, innocent [indistinct]. Then he explained the whole thing to me, so I wouldn't, I'd be careful. He said that because they criticised me, to Acyutananda, and they said that, you know, actually Bhaktisiddhanta had ordered your guru to spread this movement throughout the world. So therefore you, the actual purpose was giving this whole energy or everything is actually Bhaktisiddhanta and everyone should actually direct have a relationship with Bhaktisiddhanta. Because he is the real person behind everything.
Kirtanananda: Yeah, that is not the same. That is not shri guru.
Jayapataka: Then, then Prabhupada explained that because…
Kirtanananda: Shri guru refers to the energy of the empowerment of Krishna. Krishna empowers, first Vyasa, or first Narada then Vyasa, then coming down. That empowerment is shri guru.
Jayapataka: Ah, just to finish the example. Because I haven't got, let's eh, that because they jumped over once…
Kirtanananda: They didn't jump over at all.
Jayapataka: And if they jumped at all, so then they start saying that Prabhupada…
Kirtanananda: Which is impersonalism.
Jayapataka: It becomes impersonal, so you have to approach the…
Kirtanananda: The present acarya…
Jayapataka: The present acarya and go through and pass through the disciplic succession to the present guru. You can't jump over.
Kirtanananda: That is correct.
Jayapataka: But when they said that Prabhupada was everyone's siksha guru, I objected to…
Kirtanananda: Because they are jumping over.
Jayapataka: Of that, that term. Now you could say, that they have changed the word, so that his teachings are the ultimate authority in ISKCON.
Kirtanananda: That is correct.
Jayapataka: Definitely correct, otherwise if you say that well Prabhupada is your direct siksha guru then why not Vyasadeva?
Kirtanananda: Right.
Jayapataka: Then why not Krishna? Then…
Kirtanananda: Exactly. If they would stick to the books and the philosophy there is problem. That is our agreement, that is our unity. But if we change the books, the next year they will be changed again because just like.. what's his name? Swami, he was in [indistinct] before.
Follower: Rohini ..
Kirtanananda: Rohini Kumar Swami. He has done an analysis of the new Gita and he said that it is more fallacious. There is a lot more mistakes than in the old Gita. So then we will have to have a new one in a couple of more years to correct the mistakes in this one. Then we will be almost up with the Christians. He has documented it very well.
Jayapataka: The point is that with some other disciples of Prabhupada are making. Of course in my time I don't really have any problems because you know, like in this zone other we always told everyone that eh, God brothers are, shouldn't be present or don't have to be present. They don't have to worship, is not, you know, it's a different relationship. And moreover we always said that if people want to take initiation from whoever they have taken then that's all right.
Kirtanananda: Exactly.
Jayapataka: Just like.. what is your name?
Follower: Tapan Misra dasa
Jayapataka: Tapa Misravan. We have always had, we didn't that discipline that everyone has to take, or…
Kirtanananda: Right.
Jayapataka: So we didn't have any difficulty but at the same time there are in other parts of the world, or other parts there are, they are even, you know, that some devotees may feel that, that ah, well when the puja is in the temple. What are the things they say well then they have to like leave the temple or they feel uncomfortable and they don't feel…
Kirtanananda: [Indistinct] In the morning program why? Well what's the harm in them leaving the temple? They don't come back.
Jayapataka: That's a cell(?) you know just as, as, as it is not a philosophical point ..when it really hits the smoke like that it's a sentimental point with them.
Kirtanananda: I mean it can be arranged. Let's evenly adjust it. But they want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. If you say the water is dirty throw the baby out with the bathwater..
Jayapataka: The point is like if we raise the topic in that Dallas meeting. Stagnating of preaching in North America which is the real reason for North American GBC meetings to begin with. When that topic came up, they said until all these things are settled, we cannot discuss it [indistinct].
Kirtanananda: Well that's something practically no preaching going on in North America.
Jayapataka: [indistinct] the discussion.
Kirtanananda: I mean, I am getting 6 to 8 big medium, I've spoken to over 100 million people in the last three or four weeks. And it's not just because of New Vrindavana or because of some controversy. Anybody could go up, the questions they ask are what you believe? What's with the Hare Krishna's? What are they about? Why do they dress like this? What do you do? They are interested in all about Hare Krishna. I had a big show this morning and at the end of it the guy said "Well I would like to get a hold of one of the people from the local temple and have a show with them now." Anybody can be doing this, any leader.
Jayapataka: That's what I do in South America and any other centre.
Kirtanananda: Great.
Jayapataka: The em, they were interested in, one thing I did was sing(?) a lot in North America now. The point is that I couldn't ever understand why you know, on what basis they were stopping all the pujas or all the, the whole system that Prabhupada gave us. At the same time, satisfied to change it, at the same time when I saw, you know that, I am now seeing that now they are so preoccupied with this. That I came, that I…
Kirtanananda: What will Paundraka's(?) preaching? Preaching on the basis of guru sadhu and sastra. That's what corrects all…
Jayapataka: I find that it is a lot easier to preach on the platform of just having the disciples that worship in the next room until I, here now your satisfied here is we are worshipping Prabhupada in the temple room. Then later on they turn round and say actually it was better, now 98% of the devotees they will even go into the next room. It is not really practical, they turn round every way.
Kirtanananda: [Laughs]
Jayapataka: But if you just force them. No I don't want to do it. Then it's like a sentimental issue, it goes beyond philosophy.
Kirtanananda: So of course if its the next room and they actually have a regular guru puja. That is nice, not so bad but. That is a practical matter but as far as I know in most places they have stopped the puja. They have just destroyed the vyasasanas.
Jayapataka: Just I went to one, I won't mention the name of the temple. I went to one temple and they said that we are a bit hesitant to have you speak. Certainly cos then..
Kirtanananda: Several temples have told me, don't come.
Jayapataka: Then he said, well one of the reasons is that well you some disciples here. We have already removed all of the vyasasanas, so we don't know if we offer you a small cushion there will be a trainer(?) but if we offer you a big seat. Even I don't have one to offer but if I were to offer then others would be offended. So then I explained this is my whole thing right now I am just trying to just you know I want to see my own disciples they are being maintained in the system that Prabhupada gave us. But just let us concentrate on Prabhupada, let the fever come down and then as far as to establish a…
Kirtanananda: Just concentrate on Prabhupada, is not what he taught us. He didn't teach us to come to…
Jayapataka: Publicly…
Kirtanananda: Well he didn't teach us to come to any Bhaktisiddhanta in the public either. He never even mentioned Bhaktisiddhanta for the first few years.
Jayapataka: Maybe you could explain why, maybe there's a different reason.
Kirtanananda: Why?
Jayapataka: He said because, because the other disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta did not follow his instructions because they work under GBC they didn't cooperate together. They didn't follow his instructions because basically they were opposed to what Prabhupada was doing and if he gave too much prominence to Bhaktisiddhanta then that would give them an opportunity to try to get more influence in the movement and destroy his preaching.
Kirtanananda: But that really doesn't make sense. He could have told us about Bhaktisiddhanta. He was in our temple he could have told us about Bhaktisiddhanta as he wanted to. And he proposed yes, as I am loving Bhaktisiddhanta you also have to love me. But actually he taught us to love him without telling us anything about Bhaktisiddhanta.
Jayapataka: He taught us a lot about Bhaktisiddhanta but he just didn't have any worship or any kind of formal worship of Bhaktisiddhanta. Actually brihad-mridanga and all the orders, he told us a lot of things about Bhaktisiddhanta. I mean that…
Kirtanananda: Just incidentally in his lectures he would mention briefly but factually we didn't even know. For the first year we didn't know anything about it. I remember when we first found a picture of Bhaktisiddhanta in the library and we brought it and Prabhupada said, "Oh that is my guru Maharaja." Then somebody found the Brahma samhita, Prabhupada never told us about it. Prabhupada never recommended that we read Bhaktisiddhanta.
Jayapataka: He told me not to read Bhaktisiddhanta. I was reading one Bhaktisiddhanta book, "Why are you reading it. You should read my books. Those books are written for me." But Prabhupada did say his books were written for the next 10,000 years…
Kirtanananda: So that's fine, I mean, I've never suggested that we not keep Prabhupada's books as the authority. Prabhupada's books are the authority, Prabhupada himself said that we should also write books. So it is the duty of every Vaishnava to write books….
Jayapataka: Because in Mayapura I was gone one day and then ah, Nitai Chand Maharaja he wrote a letter [indistinct] for the vyasasana. I come back and various God brothers came to me and they were very upset that why we already did that. So they [indistinct] and called a council meeting. Then they raised all these philosophical points, anyway Prabhupada said if you can do any changes you should do it only once a year. Apart from that why there should be any change in [indistinct] with reason. So they are very much established in the traditions and in the philosophy. They are Prabhupada disciples, so then it was put back on that basis. So when I arrived back from the Bombay meeting it was already a very strong opinion. So then I refined the point, that you know, I resolved the point, it was more answered but still the bottom line somehow or other they are totally… the Bengali's don't listen, they won't even listen to the things you have to say at this point you can't even preach the philosophy to some of them, just like if an error of sentiment…
Kirtanananda: Why is that?
Jayapataka: Well that's a…
Kirtanananda: [Laughs] majority of Prabhupada's disciples are in New Vrindavana. The majority of Prabhupada's disciples in the world, that are in temples are in New Vrindavana. Now there they don't feel like that…
Jayapataka: In Mayapura they don't feel like that either.
Kirtanananda: In Mayapura they don't feel like that, then…
Jayapataka: Maybe in Calcutta [indistinct] or I maybe in Gujarat…
Kirtanananda: Why, that's the, I am saying why? ..
Jayapataka: Well I, I found that it is not. There is different reasons, there are is so many you know, just every, the people you know …
Kirtanananda: Basically because they are being influenced by people. They are hearing from the wrong source.
Jayapataka: Then?
Kirtanananda: Therefore I say that the solution to the whole problem is vigourous preaching. For instance, every temple I have been to, when I speak, devotees usually say, "Wow! That's what I thought our philosophy was."
All: [Laughs]
Kirtanananda: When they hear, they say, they recognise. Actually that is our philosophy.
Follower: [Laughs]
Kirtanananda: So then, some good preaching and especially if they have heard from two or three different individuals like yourself, myself…
Follower: Yeah.
Kirtanananda: There will be no question. We could stop this poison.
Jayapataka: As I was saying that I was staying in that temple I went to that day in our hesitating(?) so when I explained, all right just for the letting the thing I told my disciples got in another room you know, you know. And do the puja just so that then we will discuss it the thing and like so many things came up from Sridhara came from different things we should just establish the Prabhupada's standard. So then immediately when you say a thing like that, they say, actually I want you to give a lecture here in the temple and then he found some dead Christian …
All: [Laughs]
Jayapataka: And then, actually he wants to be strict Vaishnava's, they want to have people preach but they have heard so many things
Kirtanananda: Yes so when… when it is actually explained that the guru is simply representative. That what you are offering to the guru, is not offered to him personally. It is offered to him because he is representing Krishna, or the previous acaryas. And in turn he is offering it to his spiritual master. So if they just give me a half inch cushion on a bir(?) what can I offer to Prabhupada? I have to offer Prabhupada the same cushion. That means Prabhupada is sitting on a half inch cushion. See, when you think about it that way it doesn't make any sense.
Jayapataka: One of the point is that they are saying that because the all the initiating gurus they took that position. So much for being the representative is that then they what Prabhupada said we should work under a GBC, we should cooperate in that way also. And then they take it that they are just totally independent they don't have any other authority that…
Kirtanananda: Then what we have to do is we have to get all of Prabhupada statements about the GBC and we have to make our organization conform to all the statement's not just one or two. For instance Prabhupada said the GBC is the ultimate managing authority. Without any doubt he said that, I accept that. Prabhupada also said that the GBC should meet once a year for three hours. I accept that, Prabhupada said that the GBC men should be exemplary in following the regulative principles, I accept that. Anyway, all of these statements have to be taken together. I have come to the conclusion and I hope to have this ready by Mayapura. I want to write a paper on what kind of organisation fits all of Prabhupada's statements. And I think it will be found to be an organisation that I have temporarily or tentatively named Transcendental Anarchy. Because Prabhupada said, that brahmana's prefer anarchy. Kshatriya's prefer monarchy, vaisyas prefer affluism and sudra's prefer socialism. Now obviously we have to have an organisation that fits all of these. In other words, for some it appears sometimes anarchistic, for others it appears monarchistic. For others it appears capitalistic and for others it appears socialistic. Now how is that possible? That is possible under a system of transcendental anarchy. Where in the force is love and trust, this is what Prabhupada taught us. Not that an army, not dependent on revolution. It depends on love and trust. Anyway I hope to develope this and have it ready for Mayapura.
Jayapataka: 15 days.
Kirtanananda: Hm?
All: [Laughs]
Kirtanananda: So I've written about six books [indistinct] six months.
Jayapataka: Do you dictate them or the disciples..
Kirtanananda: No I type them on the computer.
Jayapataka: How many pages in each of them?
Kirtanananda: Let me see. One…
Jayapataka: I reorganised Mayapura following the a Vedic structure. I am going to spend a 15 day course in Mayapura in the coming year.
Kirtanananda: Great. That's [indistinct]. This is on.. this is the first of a book on asrama, varnasrama. This is a brahmacari subject.
Jayapataka: [indistinct] brahmacaris [indistinct].
Kirtanananda: Yeah…
Jayapataka: How many pages do you write in a day? [indistinct] what you're writing, how do you?
Kirtanananda: What's my writting schedule? Well I get up usually at one o'clock and write to mangala arotika, four, four o'clock. Then I go to the morning program, then I take breakfast then maybe a little more rest. Then by nine o'clock I am out on my car driving. Then during the day if I find that I have time I type a little more. Mainly I write in the morning, early morning.
Jayapataka: [indistinct] best time otherwise during the day there is so many interuptions, in the temple.
Kirtanananda: It is very peaceful, then I go to bed 6.30-7 o'clock.
Jayapataka: What are these points [indistinct] where are these from?
Kirtanananda: Those are a few books about brahmacari…
Jayapataka: Yeah.
Kirtanananda: I've charted them here and there. .. Things that are helpful in maintaining brahmacari.
Jayapataka: You're going to have an all the parts asrama?
Kirtanananda: Yes, not as a [indistinct] because brahmacari is the foundation for all asramas.. I wish we had something like this 20 years ago. [Laughs] there is a real science to being brahmacari.
Jayapataka: People should get married before they are 25 and then, otherwise they found that they decrease their output or something. [indistinct] Prabhupada said that one should get married at 25 and girls at 16. Now they are worried about teenage pregnancies. [indistinct]….
Kirtanananda: Fine.
Jayapataka: If the leaders just have them married.
Kirtanananda: In here I say at least 20. Because the semen, male semen is not ripe, it is not fully mature until about 20.. now a bestseller is a book, number one or two. "Sex May Be Hazardous To Your Health" and it has sold so many.
Jayapataka: There is so much research is done, I was asking some of our scientists alike. If someone just went through and just saw all the different research that was done you would find that so many things that was established..
Kirtanananda: Yeah.
Jayapataka: Krsna conscious points…
Kirtanananda: I'm including a lot of things like that. [indistinct].
Jayapataka: [indistinct] materialistic point of view that no one ever hears about it…
Kirtanananda: But you see that is under bhoga tyaga, just like we went through the sexual revolution of the 60s, free sex. Now you're going to have a swing back. It's actually going to become anti-sex.
All: [Laughs]
Kirtanananda: This book, I tell you is going to have a good popular market.. the ah, separate point was made.
Jayapataka: Some of the demons seem very concerned that the people might give up sex life they are not even advertising the condoms on TV here.
Kirtanananda: Some minister was giving out condoms in church. But they just did an expose on him. He turned out to be some child molester or some …
Jayapataka: I was just flying up here from South America and usually I consider that some of the it is so common for the priests to have illegitimate children..
Kirtanananda: AIDS, it is becoming an epidemic in the Catholic Church.
Jayapataka: That eh, the parishes have a trans(?) policy which includes maintaining the illegitimate children of the priests.
Kirtanananda: AIDS, it is becoming almost epidemic among priests.
Jayapataka: 40% of the Catholic Church priests have engaged, usually. Maybe 20% but they said it is actually 40% of the.. [indistinct] now they violate parish halls and pagans(?)[indistinct] That is what Bhaktivinoda Thakura objected to, that the brahmanas shouldn't be hired by a, a preacher shouldn't have a dowry(?).. Prabhupada of course, he always, he was personally on many GBC, in Mayapura for instance for three years of GBC meetings and they had all these meetings for you know four or five days. He said why are they taking so long, at the same time, they were having the meetings, he was discounting the meetings because the meeting was taking time without coming to any conclusion.
Kirtanananda: How to observe brahmacari, almost all disease is ultimately attributable to stomach disorder which in turn is generally due to improper kind and quantity of food. When food is not proper… well that would explain. Well nutrition implies also total, not just protein. Because protein, pro.. there is a decrease in protein and decrease in total covert(?) outcome. People are into crack, that makes them more sex consider.
Jayapataka: Prabhupada said that brahmana's [indistinct] means that unless they are less attached to sex activity..
Kirtanananda: Well, my observation is that devotees are better when they are little lean. Besides, Bhaktisiddhanta whenever he would see a disciple getting, putting on a little weight. He would say, "oh you're getting a little fatty." He never said it prudently.
Jayapataka: Well specifically protein Prabhupada said that you could ..
Kirtanananda: Well protein of course is the, is the worst offender. And that is interesting, Prabhupada always spoke of not eating too much protein.
Jayapataka: He didn't even want the devotees to take soya beans.
Kirtanananda: Hm?
Jayapataka: He said not to eat the soya beans..
Kirtanananda: A lot… what danda are you using? Wonderful. [indistinct]
Jayapataka: Everyone has instructions, if we had…
Kirtanananda: If we can get 15 and then we can have our own parade. We should encourage the temple to take a float. I mean if Florida, if Miami took a float, Atlanta took a float, St Louis took a float, Charles took a float. [indistinct] haven't they? In that parade, from the Rose Bowl.
Jayapataka: [indistinct] they had one I don't know if they do it every year. They had one.
Kirtanananda: Anyway if each temple would be responsible it wouldn't be any big thing. We get our….
Jayapataka: [indistinct] only six hours away from Houston, Atlanta.
Kirtanananda: Make a start, that's a party if you want.
Jayapataka: Or if you do it for the Mardi Gras you could even have the floats, possibly I don't, even for just some other time.. but actually on Monday there is only two parades. Monday is the day before they are coming out. They're calling it Lundie Gras. If we had, if we had, if we had the decree that Monday was going to be more show because only two parades that day.
Kirtanananda: Huh? I think we can have the best from anywhere.
Jayapataka: I don't know the internal regulations, that whether we can get any day you want.
Kirtanananda: Not only that but you know that the original thing in the 1860's when they started this thing. They used to throw peanuts. If we have own parade, we can throw peanuts and we can say that we are reviving the original custom among us.
Jayapataka: [indistinct]
Kirtanananda: That's a great idea.
Jayapataka: Okay, so I was thinking [indistinct] if we cancel food but if they threw peanuts in those days, then they can't be cooking.
Kirtanananda: Well if we have our own parade we can throw anything we want.
All: [Laughs]
Jayapataka: Oh it is just a rule of these parades.
Kirtanananda: Just a rule of the parades.
Jayapataka: A part of each crew.
Kirtanananda: That would be a, you see thats a decent kind of prasadam.. we just get together and buy hundreds of pounds of peanuts.
Jayapataka: They probably threw the peanuts in the shells in those days.
Kirtanananda: Well that is what we will throw. We can roast them in the shell and throw them that way.
Follower: What if the fall on the ground and…
Kirtanananda: Throw them on the ground, then someone will pick them up and eat them. They are not dirty you just crack open the shell and take them.
Jayapataka: That's great. How far is Baltimore?
Kirtanananda: Oh, I bet you could throw them a long way.
Jayapataka: [Laughs] you can throw the bananas. So nice together bananas and rice I wouldn't want to throw [indistinct]
All: [Laughs]
Jayapataka: I think that's a pretty harmless, pure peanuts. Pretty hard to secure..
So we should research the whole market…
Follower: Should be about 15 minutes Srila Bhaktipada.
Kirtanananda: So where is lunch?
Follower: Do you want lunch now?
Kirtanananda: What did you think that I wanted it at 2.30 after the meeting?
Jayapataka: I want to go see the floats.
Kirtanananda: Yeah you should.
Follower: Srila Bhaktipada I begun a program about a month ago ..
Kirtanananda: Yeah.
Follower: .. and the personnel [indistinct] every time a question. If I will ask you a question before you get through explaining it you get cut off in a, you get cut off before you get to explaining…
Kirtanananda: That is still, still a great show, that was a great show and the producers of the show kept coming up to us and saying heh your getting the best of them. [indistinct] and from that show we will get on the biggest TV show, the Phil Donahue.
Follower: Isn't that the show, that even actor with cameras went off into the audience..
Kirtanananda: Oh, yes.
Follower: … 20 minutes and then asked questions
Kirtanananda: Yes, true men. And not only that, the, some deprogramers where there and an ex-devotee. So they were raising their points but then the audience, Gopa and her parents were there. Like they were saying something about we took kids away from their parents. So Mr Gopala Priya he raised his hands and they took, went over with a mike and he told them, "That is not true, my daughter is a Hare Krishna and I am never discouraged from coming" and he went on to glorify the devotees. He said, "Actually I was going to have her deprogrammed but I started investigating what these deprogrammers do" and then he went on [indistinct] disagree.
Jayapataka: He is very like an American.
Kirtanananda: Like an American, he is about 60 years old.
Follower: We had one time in Columbus Ohio a teacher [indistinct] he attended the movies, I mean the problem. The reason we called him was because we wanted him to give lessons in kung fu for some of the boys. He said to us the guru was very good but the other guy was completely insane. He has [indistinct]
Jayapataka: That's the way it came off.
Follower: Yeah, the people was more..
Kirtanananda: The people were definitely entrusted by us a lot.. More than by them. That's the national strength. 20 million people.
Jayapataka: [indistinct] I read, I just was, when I went to Miami and went to South America. He gave me that paper from Acaryadeva and I also thought that the philosophical points is about the guru puja that we.. but eh,
Kirtanananda: [indistinct]
Jayapataka: Other quotes, those other quotes you took were those out of context from everywhere you know like eh, in the sense that. You see this man as you were explaining that we should just try to do…
Kirtanananda: You know before we leave.. and he took it all out of context. For instance I have never said that I am equal to Prabhupada. A disciple never says that but I will say that you can become as good as Prabhupada. Or you can become as great as Prabhupada. How do you become as great as Prabhupada? Do what Prabhupada did. Surrender to Krishna and go out and preach. In other words I will not agree that there is a philosophical reason why you cannot become supreme. The same empowerment that was available to Prabhupada is still available. It is available to everyone. Now you can say, [indistinct].
