In his most recent comment on the “Sentimental Reunion” thread, Shiva das has posted two URL’s which allow us to peek behind the saffron curtain and observe the commotion surrounding the recently departed HH Bhakti Tirtha Swami. The debate between GBCs, sanyasis and ISKCON leaders is focused, in part, on Bhakti Tirtha Swami’s recorded opinions and comments on the touchy subject of homosexuality in Krsna Consciousness. No doubt the readers have seen the many articles posted on Chakra as this topic has been debated. I didn’t feel compelled to add my thoughts on the matter, but as it has come to the forefront in the Krsna Blog, I guess the time is right.

It is politically incorrect to speak ill of the dead. Whether it be the departed HH Tamal Krsna Goswami or the now-departed HH Bhakti Tirtha Swami, we risk appearing “insensitive” if we reveal unsavory historical facts which don’t depict these high profile individuals favorably in the light of day. Not known to be deterred by such institutional and collegial niceties, I will express my thoughts on the matter. I agree with many of the points made in the email exchanges from Siddhanta.org, which Shiva dasa has introduced us to.

In a recent discussion with my local GBC, Bir Krishna dasa Goswami, I was called to task on account of a comment I made about Tamal Krsna Goswami just after he left his body. Bir Krishna dasa Goswami’s fuzzy wuzzy words about Tamal Krishna were intentionally ambiguous, and were laced with exaggerations, half-truths and misstatements of fact pertaining to the departure of Tamal Krsna. Bir Krishna suggested that His Divine Grace auspiciously departed in the Holy Dhama. In fact, it was a violent death on a road well outside the boundaries of Sri Dhama Mayapura. Witness ISKCON’s myth-making machine in motion. The same is now true for HH Bhakti Tirtha Swami.

I recently published a Blog article called “History… As It Is” wherein I state that due to the suppression of accurate ISKCON history, we are all unnecessarily suffering the negative results of recurring mistakes. It was obvious to me after reading the emails about Bhakti Tirtha Swami that the contributors purposely did not mention some of the most important historical and philosophical facts relative to the discussion at hand. Instead, they followed the unspoken creed that no one shall embarrass the leaders by telling the truth.

It is a well-known fact that Bhakti Tirtha Swami was a long-time supporter of -- what to speak of an active participant in -- Kirtanananda Swami’s New Vrindabin, a shadow ISKCON organization that existed during the eighties and early nineties. Kirtanananda’s empire included west Africa, where he was the official initiating guru. Kirtanananda’s zone also included Bhakti Tirtha’s preaching activities in America, primarily Washington D.C. Bhakti Tirtha was Kirtanananda’s lieutenant, and avidly supported Kirtanananda whenever there were disagreements with the GBC.

Kirtanananda’s regime functioned for many years well outside the auspices or direction of the GBC. The GBC turned a blind eye to the very questionable and bizarre goings-on that were taking place within this quasi-ISKCON temple community. Mainstream books published by non-devotee authors, such as “Monkey on a Stick”, describe all the unworldly cult-ish goings-on in the hills of West Virginia. We won’t reiterate the copious details here.

The historical facts pertaining to this discussion are that Kirtanananda is and always has been a practicing homosexual. In fact, there is credible evidence that he was also a child molester. His long-time, now deceased partner/lover was none other than Hayagriva dasa. It was Hayagriva’s young son who often shared Kirtanananda’s bed over many years. Many of New Vrindabin’s policies, programs, activities and attitudes -- particularly those adversely effecting women, children, and non-conformist members -- can be accurately sourced to the so-called founder-acarya’s hardcore homosexuality.

After Srila Prabhupada’s pastimes wound-up, the GBC was undermined and the Zonals took over. Two larger-than-life homosexuals, Kirtanananda and Bhavananda Swami, were amongst the gang of eleven. They wreaked havoc for well over ten years.

The strange, low road Kirtanananda led his community down after the GBC finally excommunicated him is now common knowledge. It was the external American society who finally put this character behind bars, where he belonged. If the legal authorities had received the full cooperation of ISKCON leadership, Kirtanananda would likely have gone away for life for conspiracy to murder.

Apparently it doesn’t occur to any of the GBC, sannyasis, and opinion writers we find on Siddhanta.org that HH Bhakti Tirtha Swami’s long-time association with and support of Kirtanananda had detrimentally impacted his spiritual life. This is particularly clear with regard to the issues outlined in the email debates. Aside from his un-bona fide support for homosexuality, there were all the nonsense habits and activities he displayed which mirrored Kirtanananda, such as his pastimes of donning bizarre outfits, writing about extraterrestrial life, trying to “relate” to other cultures and religions by adopting many of their traditions into our pure culture and philosophy. All the aforementioned undisputable historical facts, and the far greater untold content, gives us the true story.

We never hear the question asked, why was Bhakti Tirtha Swami suddenly struck down by debilitating cancer? What divine forces might have contributed to his departure? Could it possibly be due to his past activities, offenses or perhaps his attempts to change the siddhanta? No one within ISKCON’s power structure dares to pose these obvious questions. Un-sentimentally applying our philosophy to real life scenarios is our business and tradition, but when that might cause ISKCON’s rosy re-written history to be blemished, the practice is abandoned.

In the distant past and in the early eighties, when I was the Regional Secretary for East Africa, I had the unfortunate opportunity to deal with Bhakti Tirtha Swami. As such, I am aware of many untold stories of his Africa adventures, which I won’t get into here. These details are known and hidden by the GBC. Who do they think they are protecting? The truth will always eventually be made public, and they will be left looking like cover-up conspirators. Their credibility will further deteriorate. That is the inescapable result.

If we follow in Srila Prabhupada’s footsteps and let the true history be told, we can learn from it and go forward. Otherwise, we are certain to fail repeatedly. As Srila Prabhupada once said on a morning walk when a devotee pointed out a rat in a garbage can: “Doomed.”

Rocana dasa

Replies: 54 Comments

Posted by Kaunteya Das @ 01/20/2006 02:17 PM PST

Dearest Devotees,

These stories all appear to be coming from the same place in the heart.

To Love the Good in any soul or Iskcon keeps us on the road Back to Godhead.

To Hate the bad in a soul or Iskcon keeps us on the road back to hellish life.

They both appear the same, but the individual consciousness is not.

I could find many reasons to hate the bad, I had 4 sons attend Vrindavan and Mayapur gurukul for 5 years in late 70's and 80's. Where will that take me?

I personally learned forgiveness. What happened?

When the mother of those sons, Ulupi devi dasi, my beloved wife of 38 years was dying in 2005, Srila Prabhupada arranged for his personal bedsheet to be sent. He lay on this sheet in Vrindavan as he left his body. Now Ulupi was the first to lay on Srila Prabhupada's bedsheet.

She lay there for 5 months and a 30 year old preserved garland worn by Srila Prabhupada in Vrindavan was placed around her neck. At the moment of her leaving she had her children and myself by her side. Quietly she weakly whispered, Krsna, Krsna, Radhe, Radhe. This is an example of the personal loving mercy from a loving spiritual master to a sincere and loving soul.

For 5 months I sat almost 24/7 and cared for this most beautiful devotee. She was visited by Vaisnav devotees, Tibetan geshes and monks, Himalayan sadhus, and a priest. During those months an Italian monk said to me, "Sitting here for 2 hours with a sincere spiritual soul who is departing this world contains the lessons of reading a thousand books.

Ulupi came to me after her death and simply said, "Kaunteya, my darling, all that matters is the loving consciousness." It is love that takes the soul through the realms back to Godhead. Krsna sends us one person to love. Love just one unconditionally and all is so good.

There is so much focus on hating the bad, there is real danger of this consciousness taking over the heart. Love the Good.

Hare Krsna
Kaunteya Dasa

Posted by Paramananda das @ 01/18/2006 09:28 AM PST

Well Bhakti Tirtha Maharaja may have been controversial by trying to encourage the gays, I see no reason to believe he was one.He was a strict sannyasi, to all recollection of anyone.Regarding Tamal Krsna Maharaja, though he was a heavey personality, he was a great soul that was dedicadet to Srila Prabhupada and his mission.
Why should anyone find faults with these great souls?pray for their wellbeing if you saw some faults.I offer them my obaisences.why risk committing any offences???

Posted by Chaitanya @ 12/04/2005 11:00 AM PST

Haribol Dana!

Hare Krishna and no hard feelings.
Best wishes and thanks for your intelligent exchange

Your servant
Chaitanya

Posted by Dana @ 11/25/2005 02:55 AM PST

Cd mentioned: To try and infer that Iskcons problems are the cause of devotees not following the no sex principle is really bending the truth.

***************

Certainly would be, considering all the nonsense that the phony leadership has engaged in since HDG Srila Prabhupada left!

Umm.. so Cd? Where exactly did you and I disagree? (Other than you thinking it takes "suppression" to maintain the vow of celibacy, maybe?) And of course, you're right, MOST people won't manage the strict adherence, especially while younger. But if the usurpers have their way, the vows would be altered forever, thus removing the potency, (at least temporarily,) and almost ruining all the transcendental benefits possible from the teachings of HDG Srila Prabhupada, for all those who would fall victim to their dilution of the original process and philosophy.

Regardless of minor disagreement... after reading your last post, I'd say I'm in 100% agreement with about 99% of it.

Thank you for clarifying.

I remain, 'Forever indebted, to your ever-well-wisher'

Posted by Chaitanya @ 11/21/2005 11:17 AM PST

Thanks for finally admitting that even people who have sex can chant Hare Krishna.
I doubt very much whether everyone in Kali yuga will take the no sex vow anyway.Especially when Iskcon is full of BOGUS gurus who cant keep their gamchas tied tightly. Hmmm, lets see, other than Srila Prabhupada, who within Iskcon could a sincere seeker take shelter of? Perhaps Bhavanada? he is back at Mayapur and making his way up the ladder again.(YUK) Or what about devamrita swami, he overlooked child abuse at new vrindaban and now wants to get rid of Srila Prabhupadas books,(read his 2002 vyasa puja offering) and he also wants to make homosex marriages legit' within Iskcon.(BOGUS)What about Bhakticharu, he says that it is quite acceptable for a mahabhagavat to fall down.(Nonsense). Maybe theres a representative from the females? What about Urmilla? Na... she says this, "even a materialistic initiator into an impure method of worship is to be considered and respected as acarya" (More Nonsense) you see?
All the problems with sex desire and practically every single problem within Iskcon, such as child rape and abuse, occured after 1977. This is due to the offense of not following Srila Prabhupadas ORDER for initiations within Iskcon.
To try and infer that Iskcons problems are the cause of devotees not following the no sex principle is really bending the truth.
Devotees are a reflection of those who guide them. Since 1977 the assembled devotees have been cheated by Bogus imposters who have been claimed as being on the same level as Srila Prabhupada. This is RUBBISH!
There is only one Guru FOR ISKCON!
AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.
Dont blame the victims prabh'g' assist them by guiding them Back to Srila Prabhupada.
If someone cant follow the sex principle its more than likely they are guided by BOGUS CHEATERS, the greatest menace to society. THATS THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER.

Chaitanya

Posted by Dana @ 11/21/2005 08:46 AM PST

My question posed to Cd:
"His teachings and their inherent restrictions on illicit sex life, which includes, but is not limited to: no sex life while not married within the traditions he delivered us, and then only in accordance with those traditions, (id est, monogamous and one man/one woman only, with sex strictly limited to that of a reproductive nature, thereby at most, once per lunar-month equivalent, based upon the woman's fertility cycle. )

Do you, or do you not, accept His teachings on the above?

Cd replied: "If one has taken the VOWS as established by Srila Prabhupada YES!"
************************

Wonderful!

You see, I was right to call you friend, for you do agree that His process should continue to be taught, unaltered, (I trust I can rightly gather as much from your answer.)

But you must understand, that there are those who today seek to 'dilute' His teachings. They wish to change the process, simply that they may gather large numbers of deluded followers around them, in order to improve their own material situation. You surely sounded as one of they who preach as much, certainly in your first discourses.

They seek to be worshipped, rather than to worship.

The difference between what the offenders are preaching, and the process given us by HDG Srila Prabhupada, is that He gave us, as lofty goal, a perfect form of regulated human life. He of course knew that not nearly all would succeed, ("When you are in the business of selling diamonds... you do not expect to have many customers")

But He nonetheless gave the instructions; 'Here, you take this and you try... just sincerely try to follow this life as I instruct.'

And THAT is how it is possible for the lowest of the low to be liberated. Not 'by sinning but also chanting'! No. No they preach a lifestyle of repeated offense.

Sincerity of effort. 'Succeed in this lifetime or not, does not too much matter, but just please take to this and try.' That is the merciful message He gave us.

They on the other hand, would simply abandon the goal entirely, thereby cheating those few who will indeed come along, who COULD have otherwise eventually achieved that goal.

They are to be soundly defeated, wherever they may appear, by simply 'sticking', cent per cent, (as He oft said,) to the process as He gave it, and not giving in to them so much as one millimeter!

Thank you for the clarification, my friend. I wish you great success in bringing the mercy of His unaltered, unalloyed, and wholly perfect instruction, to many!

Oh yes, and to answer your question:

Cd asked: "...is it worth their while to chant Gods Holy Names as asked by Srila Prabhupada? And if they do is there any spiritual advancement?"

Yes of course. For that is the first step He gave us, and those who try to climb so steep a stair, while skipping the first step...

...Well, they are as sure to stumble as those who would seek to dilute His teaching, now aren't they?

I am, 'Forever indebted, to your ever-well-wisher'

JAYA JAGAT-GURU SRILA PRABHUPADA!

Posted by Chaitanya @ 11/20/2005 09:49 AM PST

If one has taken the VOWS as established by Srila Prabhupada YES!

If not NO!

Now I ask you this prabhu'g', if a person has NOT taken a VOW to follow the four regulative principles, is it worth their while to chant Gods Holy Names as asked by Srila Prabhupada? And if they do is there any spiritual advancement?

Yes or No....please, no ranting!

Chaitanya

Posted by Dana @ 11/20/2005 09:24 AM PST

Cd said: "First of all prabhu'g' my arguments are not against Srila Prabhupada as you say."

Oh yes they are.

Your arguments are designed to have others preach a 'watered-down' version of the original instruction. Further, I tire of your petty games, and you begin to bore me. I shall, after this, ignore everything you address to me regarding myself. For that is 100% irrelevant to this argument.

I do not even yet consider myself worthy of initiation, hence the use of my name as given by Christian parents. That alone refutes, in it's entirety, your foolish notion that I think so highly of myself, and am only engaging in this discourse with you, based on that feeling. Unless you, at birth or contemporaneous naming ceremony, were christened with 'Caitanya dasa', then clearly you feel yourself worthy of initiation, erego you consider yourself to be at a more advanced level than myself.

Say you otherwise?

HDG Srila Prabhupada taught one thing, when it came to sex "enjoyment", and you my friend, you preach the literal, diametric opposite.

If you now seek to deny this, then you MUST now state, without further nonsensical equivocation, that you accept, 100%, His teachings and their inherent restrictions on illicit sex life, which includes, but is not limited to: no sex life while not married within the traditions he delivered us, and then only in accordance with those traditions, (id est, monogamous and one man/one woman only, with sex strictly limited to that of a reproductive nature, thereby at most, once per lunar-month equivalent, based upon the woman's fertility cycle. )

Do you, or do you not, accept His teachings on the above?

Posted by Caitanya das @ 11/19/2005 01:19 PM PST

First of all prabhu'g' my arguments are not against Srila Prabhupada as you say. But I suppose that you say this because not having sex makes you feel superior to those who do have sex.

You say,***For He teaches us a very different lesson than do you.***

I'm not teaching any lesson prabhu"g"!
I am just repeating what Srila Prabhupada said, and that is that, "Chanting Hare Krishna springs automatically from the spiritual strata, and as such anyone can chant, THERE IS NO NEED OF ANY UNDERSTANDING THE LANGUAGE OF THE MANTRA."
So in other words, making spiritual advancement in this age of quarrel is easy and everyone can do it.
Your argument is floored according to Srila Prabhupada, because you are starting at the point of sex desire.
Dont try and say that you are not, because your whole point has been based on that one principle, the No Sex principle or sex for procreation.
These statements by Srila Prabhupada which appear on the original Hare Krishna Mantra album, dont mention anything of which you are speaking about!
PROVE ME WRONG!
That fact is spiritual advancement DOES NOT start from the principle of no sex.
In Kali yuga Chanting Hare Krishna is where it starts.When Srila Prabhupada first arrived in the West, did he first tell people not to have sex? Or to Chant Hare Krishna?
Srila Prabhupada further say's that it springs automatically from the spiritual strata. So it is NOT dependent on anything, including the regulative principles. When Lord Chaitanya said that in this age of quarrell the only means for making spiritual advancement was to chant the Holy Names of the Lord,did He say ...is to chant the Holy Names of the Lord and follow the regulative principles? No, because in Kali yuga the regulative principles are NOT the means for achieving spiritual advancement. Chanting Hare Krishna is the only way. As you are trying to do here, go out and try preching to the general public that, no sex is the only means for acheiving spiritual advancement in this age of quarrell! DO YOU THINK THEY WILL LISTEN TO YOU?......NEVER.
And this is not what Srila Prabhupada taught. So please prabh'g', stick to preaching to others about the yuga dharma.

Chaitanya

Posted by Dana @ 11/19/2005 05:52 AM PST

'The fact remains', my friend, that thus far you refuse to even try and defeat the logic and reason of my words, and instead you gradually begin the process of hurling insults, seeking to attack me as a person, rather than the fortress of my position.

You are wise to do so, since my position is not of my own making, as is yours. No, mine is but a small attempt at rendition of the teaching of HDG Srila Prabhupada, regarding the 4 Principals He gave us. And he is undefeatable.

The Four Regulative Principals for civilized human life are not my creation at all.

Do not pretend that you are not rejecting HDG Srila Prabhupada when you reject his teachings, for you very clearly are doing just that. For you cannot at once, both claim to be a follower of HDG Srila Prabhupada, and also urge others to ignore His teachings. It is that simple.

Cd said: "But, left up to the type of exclusivism, that permeates your us, and them mentality..."
***************

Those who read my last post know that I clearly pointed out HDG Srila Prabupada's wonderful inclusivity! Even those who cannot yet even slightly follow, so long as their hearts are sincere, they are ALL welcomed! In fact I made strong mention of this wonderful mercy, (as you well know.) It is that merciful inclusiveness that is unique to His teachings, among all the others, including yours.

It is YOU who seek to exclude, and HDG Srila Prabhupada, along with His teachings, are that which you desire to exclude. It is also your wish to exclude people like myself, whose only good quality is the sincere desire to serve those who served Him. You try repeatedly to cast aside my attempts at helping others move beyond lust, with your own teaching that sex for pleasure will not get in the way of spiritual advancement, (which is exactly the opposite of what HDG Srila Prabhupada taught.)

For He teaches us a very different lesson than do you. You cannot both deny this and yet also continue to boldly preach against Him! (Unless you wish only utter fools as followers, of course.)

Cd said: "Like it or not prabhu'G'(In Kali Yuga) Krishna Consciousness is not an exclusive practice reserved for people who wear a dhoti or a sari, are vegetarians or who dont fall down."
*************

Of course not. And just as the last time you attempted that ploy, again I will reply that I never said this was the case! (Do you think others can read only your words, but not mine?)

Again I will point out, that I very clearly acknowledged that Krsna Consciousness is available to everyone, no matter how fallen. 'Even one who lives as a dog.'

But those who choose to reject it, and those who both reject it and also preach against it, (such as yourself,) are the most pitiable. For though it is available to you, you refuse it out of hand, and you also urge others to reject the process as it was given to us by HDG Srila Prabhupada.

You will never prevail in your argument against the teachings of HDG Srila Prabhupada. You will not ever convince those who try their best to sincerely follow Him, that your own teachings are better.

Never can you do this. You will only temporarily succeed in convincing a few of those who have doubts, that your own path of ignoring His teachings, and of embarking on a lustful lifestyle, is a path that has any value at all.

Your way is by far the easier way, but this is only because your path does not lead to the same destination.

The path given us by HDG Srila Prabhupada takes us back home, Back to Godhead.

Your path will only lead to the continuing misery of entanglement in the cycle of repeated birth and death.

So it is not at all difficult, to choose between your path and His.

JAYA JAGAT-GURU SRILA PRABHUPADA!

Posted by CD @ 11/18/2005 02:38 PM PST

The fact remains (whether you like or you dont ) Anyone who chants Hare Krishna (in Kali yuga) AUTOMATICALLY makes spiritual advancement. This is also Srila Prabhupadas teaching. You might not like that INCLUSIVE aspect of Krishna Consciousness but it is there!
Of course there are those great souls (such as yourself) who are better than those who have not experienced Lord Chaitanyas mercy.
But, left up to the type of exclusivism, that permeates your us, and them mentality, I doubt very much whether they would ever experience Lord Chaitanyas Love.
But then, you are not, and in all likelyhood, never will be, as merciful as His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.
Like it or not prabhu'G'(In Kali Yuga) Krishna Consciousness is not an exclusive practice reserved for people who wear a dhoti or a sari, are vegetarians or who dont fall down.
As I said YOU might not like it, but in kali yuga, great spiritual advancement is available to EVERYONE, even the gurus within Iskcon who have had sex.
Dont get me wrong, I am not condoning sex! I am condemming your attitude. The type of attitude that has haunted Iskcon for years,and which is the root cause of abuse and as mentioned the Turley Lawsuit.
Chanting Hare Krishna is for EVERYONE, and I'm very sorry to inform you prabhu'G', that this also includes people who have sex.
Hare Krishna!
CD

Posted by Dana @ 11/17/2005 12:15 PM PST

Cd said: "Yes, well that doesn't mean that the large majority of people are excluded from making spiritual advancement!"
*********

Of course not. But I did not say that, now did I?

Cd said: "Remember this, there are no hard and fast rules for chanting Hare Krishna, it springs automatically from the spiritual strata and as such ANYONE can take part, even a child or EVEN A DOG can take part.
DOGS are always having sex, but Srila Prabhupada say's that even a dog can take part.
NO SEX is not the yuga dharma, Chanting Hare Krishna IS."
*******

Chanting Hare Krsna is how you advance spiritually in this age, that is correct. It is through chanting that we can rise to the level of sense control.

Learning to control the mind and the senses IS spiritual advancement.

If you do not learn to control the senses, then you will not succeed in making any further spiritual advancement.

HDG Srila Prabhupada never said that we may chant, and on the strength of the chanting we can also engage in sex for pleasure, and make spiritual advancement.

No, He gave us the process, and it is very clear. We are to chant AND we are to follow the four regulative principals.

Why should anyone who is sincere, listen to a person who claims HDG Srila Prabhupada was wrong, and so we should simply ignore this principal, or that principal?

So you will come and you will say, 'Ignore the restriction against illicit sex', and then another person will come and they will say, 'Ignore the principal against intoxication', and yet another will come along and they will say, 'Ignore the principal against meat eating' and finally, another will come who will say, 'Ignore the principal against gambling'.

Then what is left?

You are very clever to attack His principal against sex for pleasure. For if you attacked any of the others, you would find far fewer allies.

But anyone who tries to remove ANY of the principals is a cheater. If you are going to preach to the fallen souls that they do not really have to try to control the senses, and therefore that HDG Srila Prabhupada was actually wrong about it...

Well, you will surely find no shortage of sense-enjoyers willing to follow you, this is a well known fact. Just look at any of the many bogus gurus who preached as you do now. This is in fact very common, and is nothing new.

HDG Srila Prabhupada never taught that learning to control the senses makes someone "better" than others. But striving to live by all of the four principals He gave, certainly does indicate that the person is very sincere in trying to follow the teachings of HDG Srila Prabhupada.

If someone is struggling with lust, but they have in their heart the desire to one day control the senses as He instructed, then that person is also very sincere. Even if they still engage in illicit sex, so long as the true desire to one day follow is in the heart.

But if anyone comes forth and announces that one or all of the four principals are 'wrong', and that no one should try to follow the instruction as He gave it, then they are not only not sincere, but they are also a cheater. That sort of person is lying to others, and lying to themself, as well.

That person is not truly interested in Vaisnavism or Krsna Consciousness.

HDG Srila Prabhupada was very clear on this matter.

We may choose to follow, or we may choose to not follow. But it is foolish to say that someone can choose to NOT follow, and yet also expect to get the same result as if they DID follow.

"This year I will pay my electric bill, and next year I shall not... but the electricity shall flow, regardless."

Nonsense.

If the heart sincerely wishes to one day follow, then even those who live as the dog, they too will one day succeed. Yes, this is so.

But those who sincerely wish to follow, would not ever preach against His instruction.

To preach against His teachings immediately proves they are NOT sincere in following.

Therefore, anyone who preaches against His instruction, should be ignored by those who are sincere.

There simply is no debate.

Posted by Chaitanya das @ 11/16/2005 09:39 AM PST

Dana said:It is understood that the large majority of people will never learn to be free of lust.

Yes, well that doesn't mean that the large majority of people are excluded from making spiritual advancement!
Remember this, there are no hard and fast rules for chanting Hare Krishna, it springs automatically from the spiritual strata and as such ANYONE can take part, even a child or EVEN A DOG can take part.
DOGS are always having sex, but Srila Prabhupada say's that even a dog can take part.
NO SEX is not the yuga dharma, Chanting Hare Krishna IS.
No sex may be ok for you. But it doesn't make you any better than anyone who has sex, but who chants Hare Krishna, that advanced stage of purity takes time, NOT SURPRESSION.
If you think you are better than the rest of the world because you dont have sex. Then you fall down in another sense. PRIDE.

Posted by Dana @ 11/16/2005 06:06 AM PST

"A devotee is beyond a celibate priest and a vegetarian.

Your tone about sex doesn't serve the devotees well.
Sex is the greatest hurdle for ANY devotee.
Trying to surpress the sex desire has caused so many problems within Iskcon. (windle turley)
Devotees should be encouraged to get married and have nice Krishna conscious children, not to surpress the natural urges of sex."

**********

Your false argument of "not supressing" so-called "natural urges" seems to me but an excuse, a convenient way to accept lustful behaviours as somehow inevitable.

Simply that a process may be extremely difficult for most to follow, at least at first, is not at all a reason to discard that process.

The instruction against illicit sex would not be there, if it were not possible to follow it, given time. The voices who claim otherwise may seem loud here and now, but that is only the darkness of the age giving them false amplitude. There is a long history and tradition that proves them all wrong.

The process is not one of "supression", it is a process of experiencing something far better than lust, and then practicing that thing, even if attempts be flawed at first.

HDG Srila Prabhupada never said it was an easy process.

And when HDG Srila Prabhupada would instruct the men to marry, (those who felt they could not completely follow the 4 Principals,) he was NOT giving them license to engage in sex with their wives for pleasure. They were expected to follow the proper guidelines of restricted sexual behaviour for reproduction alone, as given in scripture.

It is understood that the large majority of people will never learn to be free of lust.

But those who think the goal should be to create vast numbers of devotees, at the expense of the regulations that allow for civilized life, they are completely misunderstanding the instruction He gave.

HDG Srila Prabhupada very often said, 'We do not need millions of silly stars... we only need that one moon.'

Over and over again, he explained that the goal was NOT to expand the quantity of followers, but to expand the quality of devotional service, among those few who could truly follow. ("When one is in the business of selling diamonds, he does not expect to have many customers.") That process will automatically bring more people, and it will bring sincere people.

None who honestly seek to gain a morsel of dust from the lotus feet of Kana, should ever be denied access to the places established by HDG Srila Prabhupada. (Those who truly do, will never be disruptive, nor would they ever teach a differing philosophy!)

But let us never allow those who are simply unwilling to follow, to establish principals that fall short of the original principals.

The four regulative principals are essential for civilized life, and anything established that would dilute them, will only serve to weaken the potency of the Harinam Sankirtana Movement.

Any who claim that it is not possible to move beyond lust, via the desire to serve, they are simply mistaken, (or perhaps not wholly honest.)

It is not 'failure', when at first it is difficult, and only those who pose themselves to others as able, when in truth they are not, actually suffer spiritually, from the occasional falldowns along the way.

For the sincere person, such falldowns become fewer and further between. This I know. It was not by forced suppression that I myself managed to overcome old habits. No, it was by a strong desire to join with all those many devotees who were already sincerely following.

(Even though it turned out there weren't as many as I had thought, long ago, still that desire to serve those who served HDG Srila Prabhupada, was sufficient. It will carry you on and see you through. To any who are struggling now and who read this, I tell you this is so. Do not despair that there may be very few now who preach the original message! Just keep going, and you will find what you need. Support His RathaYatra if you cannot find a spiritually strong temple. There is no nonsensical infighting, nor politics there, and it was something He greatly desired to see spread far and wide. The festivals still contain much of the original purity of the essence of preaching. But most of all, never give up!)

I am quite certain, that HDG Srila Prabhupada was not under any illusion when he gave instruction intended to guide humanity for the next ten thousand years.

Those who wish to never leave lust behind, let them do as they may. Large numbers are not needed.

There is less potency in one million pretenders, than there is in just one bhakta, who is truly sincere.

The 'silly stars' of the many false leaders will come and go, as they have done in the past. Those who would dilute the principals, they are easily ignored, and it will happen one day in spite of all of them...

...that glorious moon will rise!

Until then, we only have to be patient and continue to follow His example, while doing all that is in our power, to spread unaltered, the message He gave us.

Jaya Radhe!!

Posted by Chaitanya das @ 11/14/2005 10:39 AM PST

PAMHO AGTSP.

Just wondering what you think of devamrita swami given the job as an initiating diksa guru within Iskcon.
Most of his Iskcon career was spent as the right hand man of kirtananada (whom you critisize here) and he was also a leader at the New Vrindaban community.
How is it that he was given Iskcons top job with no accountability for his past?
He spent years in Australia and New Zealand and in Asia assisting kirtanananda to start a movement that went against Iskcon.
Kirtanananda was ex-communicated in the early 1980s from Iskcon, but Devamrita swami was still with kirtanananda in 1996?
He has been pinpointed in Australia at these times conducting bogus activities and there are even pictures available to prove this as fact.
How is it that he can make such a quick transition to a spiritual master that is on the same level as Srila Prabhupada?
It seems that Iskcon is still )today) a very Naive Orginisation, and the problems that you address here about Bhaktitirtha and Tamal Krishna are still issues that are alive and well to this very day.
Personally I would advise all devotees to stay well clear of devamrita swami as I know some Aussie devotees who suffered at his hands.
The problem for them is that they cannot go back to Srila Prabhupadas temples because devamrita is now considered the guru of their zone.

thanks
Chaitanya.

Posted by anonymous @ 10/22/2005 01:02 AM PST

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/07/2005 10:03 PM PST

h healthy questioning is not done in the way you, pandu or rocan or praghosh have shown. the term i would use is CRITICISE. there is a vast difference and a vast difference in the responses you get.

me maybe you better call out shrila prabhupada himself then. here's his bg purport

Asammoha, freedom from doubt and delusion, can be achieved when one is not hesitant and when he understands the transcendental philosophy. Slowly but surely he becomes free from bewilderment. Nothing should be accepted blindly; everything should be accepted with care and with caution. Satyam, truthfulness, means that facts should be presented as they are for the benefit of others. Facts should not be misrepresented. According to social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth should be spoken in a straight and forward way, so that others will understand actually what the facts are. If a man is a thief and if people are warned that he is a thief, that is truth. Although sometimes the truth is unpalatable, one should not refrain from speaking it. Truthfulness demands that the facts be presented as they are for the benefit of others. That is the definition of truth.

h no, i dont think myself better, but i am also reeling how a junior devotee can attack a senior vaisnava on the internet so liberally and happily without concern as to the consequences

me if things were being done right in iskcon there wouldn't be these situations where devotees feel they have to address it publicly. people are going public because there is no proper avenue of address. its foolish fanatics who have not yet realized that some senior devotees, even gurus have been doing all kinds of nasty things and call themselves into question. why do you think there is so much disgruntlement? if senior devotees would live like senior devotees should then there wouldn't be such talk. don't confuse position with spiritual advancement. advancement is a matter of consciousness. i know alot of negative things about your guru but respecting his death and that he can't answer for himself anymore, i won't say. he like other gurus didn't even know to follow simple vaishnava niti with their godbrothers. if they set such wrong examples no wonder why their disciples don't know these things. stalwart cult fanatics despite whatever solid evidence is presented to them will never accept it, so why should one waste their time in trying to communicate the truth to such people? they would prefer to be misled than to accept fact.

leslie says to you
I do take your point that BT Swami was in a very debilitated state near the end of his last life and likely was not able to fully process the problems that Vakresvara Pandit Das posed and

me pure devotees will not be put by krishna in such debilitated state that due to that state they make such wrongful decisions since it will cause them to be criticised for having done such a thing. your guru as a gbc hailed for his position on protecting children knew of vp's situation and yet he called him to lead kirtan despite the cpo's decision which had been in effect for a long time. this decision made by your guru shows at least in part the mentality of which your guru was possessed.

h if you do not desire to surender to Guru this is not my fault or anyone elses it is due to your lack of faith which would explain why you easily can criticise senior devotees who are also Guru

this shows your own foolishness that you profess to tell why it is someone is choosing to do or not do something. why should someone accept or be inclined to accept someone eles as a guru who they feel is not qualified? maybe it's time iskcon should consider how to clean up its messes so people will not be feeling such hesitency in accepting a guru to guide them.

h come on get real-you are angry at BTS, angry at the GBC and angry at me, you were already angry before i questioned your statements

me anger in and of itself is not to be condemned. maybe the source the reason of cause is what is to be addressed. this seems to be so in this case. hanuman was angry. are you going to criticise him for his anger.

h BTS himself told disciples to stop calling him that, when they did so at the vyasa puja he corrected them many times-i have this on tape

l I'm glad to hear that.

h are you a rtvik? what is wrong with glorifying ones guru anyways

this is the symptom of cultists. you jump in with name calling. why are you asking leslie if she's a ritvik? a non-rivik could also be posing the questions she's asking. even if she was a ritvik, what is the probelm with her asking and making legitimate questions and statements?

l I personally have felt this at Gita Nagari when the worship of BT Swami became so strong (and I can understand why, I'm just stating the fact here) that everyone was expected to join in. It can become uncomfortable for those like us who respect BT Swami, but have no inclination to worship him. My husband's own guru doesn't even approve of such worship for himself what to say of another ISKCON guru who is not Prabhupada.

h guru is to be honored even if he is not our own diksa

me you can't dictate to another person what their faith 'should' be in someone just because that someone is your guru. do you fully honor all of your gurus godbrothers? check out the cc purport which explains that the godbrothers of one's guru are to be honored exactly as one honors his guru.

h the krsnapada on yahoogroups is using his INITIATED NAME WHICH IS KRSNAPADA DAS, get your facts right before speaking please!

l I do have my facts straight I assure you. That is not the person who I am speaking of, though I admit to having wondered at the name. I was talking about a username, not an email address or name the person signs to messages. A small point, really.

Also to offer something more concrete about the pada issue I can point you to this link: http://www.ifast.net/about.aspx
IFAST is a major project of Bhakti Tirtha Swami.

me leslie's right. if not all of your guru's disciples a great many of them use his guru name and expect others to use it when referring to him as well.

h good luck on yours i am running out of time to get into petty bickerings. Please read Prabhupadas books and find a guru whom you can love and trust and above all LISTEN TO.

me seems to me you should take a better look at iskcon founder-acharya shrila prabhupada's books. shrila prabhupada didn't want us to be fanatical fools.

Posted by Niki @ 10/19/2005 06:59 PM PST

Haribol,

I would just like to add my comments on regards to reading Hari Dasa thoughts towards BT Swami. As a young devotee i perhaps do not know as much as others comments posted on this page, therefore i am sorry if i cause any offences.

Whilst reading i felt it is very unfortunate how much negativity, criticism and anger can be felt from the words. This is not Srila Prabhupada's and Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu message.

“Not considering who asked for it and who did not, nor who was fit and who unfit to receive it, Caitanya Mahaprabhu distributed the fruit of devotional service.”
Purport – This is the sum and substance of Lord Caitanya’s sankirtana movement. There is no distinction made between those who are fit and those who are not fit to hear or take part in the sankirtana movement. It should therefore be preached without discrimination. The only purpose of the preachers of the sankirtana movement must be to go on preaching without restriction. That is the way in which Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu introduced this sankirtana movement to the world.
(“Sri Caitanya-caritamrta” 1.9.29)

We should be spreading the message of Krishna Consciousness with humble hearts and a greatness of compassion, free from discriminating against those we do not fully understand. Free from judgement and assumptions. Continuing and focusing on our own spirtual paths as warriors.

Hare Krishna

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/07/2005 10:03 PM PST

leslies reply:

Posted by Leslie Howard @ 10/07/2005 07:26 PM PST

I do regret my angry tone, but in all fairness I should point out that it is rather unfortunate that people should feel pushed to the extremes of anger and "fault finding" when going about their spiritual path they find themselves deep in an ISKCON quagmire of rigid thinking and a resistance to healthy questioning.

-healthy questioning is not done in the way you, pandu or rocan or praghosh have shown. the term i would use is CRITICISE. there is a vast difference and a vast difference in the responses you get. What you are getting from me is a defense in honor of my guru-if you cannot accept that especially in the light that he recently left his body then you really need to ask yourself if you have any sensitivity or understanding towards others, save your own frustrations.

This comment here just sends me reeling:

Hari Das:
here we go again, another uninitiated devotee criticising a senior devotee-

Is your world view so narrow? Do you consider yourself better than me because you are initiated?

-no, i dont think myself better, but i am also reeling how a junior devotee can attack a senior vaisnava on the internet so liberally and happily without concern as to the consequences

I do take your point that BT Swami was in a very debilitated state near the end of his last life and likely was not able to fully process the problems that Vakresvara Pandit Das posed and do the needed teaching in the community related to that. But, nobody at the time would have suggested anything like that, and even you yourself say that VP, "Did his time". He plainly didn't. And even if he did follow the rectification plan given by the CPO there would still be a need for the greater community to monitor and enforce safe boundaries in regards to him. Instead many take the stance (including him which makes him rather dangerous) that 'he had the right'. We even had several devotees say at Gita Nagari that a 40 year old man having sex with a 13 year old girl is really no big deal. This is a most dangerous and disturbing mindset. I don't really want to get into the details here about it, but I will say that I am no longer able to participate in the Gita Nagari Community due to this problem and it's underlying implications. No GBC has stepped forward to deal with our very real concerns and work directly with the community.

-it IS at GBC level

Also regarding your above comment on initiation I assure you that it only lessons any desire I may have ever had to become initiated. Perhaps you should rethink your preaching.

-if you do not desire to surender to Guru this is not my fault or anyone elses it is due to your lack of faith which would explain why you easily can criticise senior devotees who are also Guru

If you think I'm not worth it because I'm an angry fault finder that is funny because I'm really nothing of the sort unless seriously pushed to it.

-come on get real-you are angry at BTS, angry at the GBC and angry at me, you were already angry before i questioned your statements

"Hari Das said:

-BTS himself told disciples to stop calling him that, when they did so at the vyasa puja he corrected them many times-i have this on tape

I'm glad to hear that.

-are you a rtvik? what is wrong with glorifying ones guru anyways

Well I can't say I particularily feel like I care at the moment, but there is something wrong with that. Glorifying one's guru on the same level as Prabhupada serves to take Prabhupada out of the center of ISKCON thus leaving it prone to splinter off into factions.

-Prabhupada is founder acarya and the Guru of the Guru in question- BTS, and we chant Prabhupadas pranam after BTS. If some kanistha disciples see BTS as higher than Prabhupada that is their concern, not mine, my concern is that BTS is a servant of Prabhupada and Prabhupada is a servant of BHaktisiddhanta and I am a servant of them all, but I have my connection to the acaryas via a current link who is BTS-this is called Parampara system. It is that simple and Guru is to be worshipped

I personally have felt this at Gita Nagari when the worship of BT Swami became so strong (and I can understand why, I'm just stating the fact here) that everyone was expected to join in. It can become uncomfortable for those like us who respect BT Swami, but have no inclination to worship him. My husband's own guru doesn't even approve of such worship for himself what to say of another ISKCON guru who is not Prabhupada.

-guru is to be honored even if he is not our own diksa

-the krsnapada on yahoogroups is using his INITIATED NAME WHICH IS KRSNAPADA DAS, get your facts right before speaking please!

I do have my facts straight I assure you. That is not the person who I am speaking of, though I admit to having wondered at the name. I was talking about a username, not an email address or name the person signs to messages. A small point, really.

Also to offer something more concrete about the pada issue I can point you to this link: http://www.ifast.net/about.aspx
IFAST is a major project of Bhakti Tirtha Swami.

So, I wish you well on your spiritual journey and will now continue with mine.

-good luck on yours i am running out of time to get into petty bickerings. Please read Prabhupadas books and find a guru whom you can love and trust and above all LISTEN TO.

Posted by

Posted by Leslie Howard @ 10/07/2005 07:26 PM PST

I do regret my angry tone, but in all fairness I should point out that it is rather unfortunate that people should feel pushed to the extremes of anger and "fault finding" when going about their spiritual path they find themselves deep in an ISKCON quagmire of rigid thinking and a resistance to healthy questioning.

This comment here just sends me reeling:

Hari Das:
here we go again, another uninitiated devotee criticising a senior devotee-

Is your world view so narrow? Do you consider yourself better than me because you are initiated? I do take your point that BT Swami was in a very debilitated state near the end of his last life and likely was not able to fully process the problems that Vakresvara Pandit Das posed and do the needed teaching in the community related to that. But, nobody at the time would have suggested anything like that, and even you yourself say that VP, "Did his time". He plainly didn't. And even if he did follow the rectification plan given by the CPO there would still be a need for the greater community to monitor and enforce safe boundaries in regards to him. Instead many take the stance (including him which makes him rather dangerous) that 'he had the right'. We even had several devotees say at Gita Nagari that a 40 year old man having sex with a 13 year old girl is really no big deal. This is a most dangerous and disturbing mindset. I don't really want to get into the details here about it, but I will say that I am no longer able to participate in the Gita Nagari Community due to this problem and it's underlying implications. No GBC has stepped forward to deal with our very real concerns and work directly with the community.

Also regarding your above comment on initiation I assure you that it only lessons any desire I may have ever had to become initiated. Perhaps you should rethink your preaching. If you think I'm not worth it because I'm an angry fault finder that is funny because I'm really nothing of the sort unless seriously pushed to it.

"Hari Das said:

-BTS himself told disciples to stop calling him that, when they did so at the vyasa puja he corrected them many times-i have this on tape

I'm glad to hear that.

-are you a rtvik? what is wrong with glorifying ones guru anyways

Well I can't say I particularily feel like I care at the moment, but there is something wrong with that. Glorifying one's guru on the same level as Prabhupada serves to take Prabhupada out of the center of ISKCON thus leaving it prone to splinter off into factions. I personally have felt this at Gita Nagari when the worship of BT Swami became so strong (and I can understand why, I'm just stating the fact here) that everyone was expected to join in. It can become uncomfortable for those like us who respect BT Swami, but have no inclination to worship him. My husband's own guru doesn't even approve of such worship for himself what to say of another ISKCON guru who is not Prabhupada.

-the krsnapada on yahoogroups is using his INITIATED NAME WHICH IS KRSNAPADA DAS, get your facts right before speaking please!

I do have my facts straight I assure you. That is not the person who I am speaking of, though I admit to having wondered at the name. I was talking about a username, not an email address or name the person signs to messages. A small point, really.

Also to offer something more concrete about the pada issue I can point you to this link: http://www.ifast.net/about.aspx
IFAST is a major project of Bhakti Tirtha Swami.

So, I wish you well on your spiritual journey and will now continue with mine.

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/07/2005 12:05 AM PST

pandu, write to my email adress and we can talk, but for the benefit of those that are not angry i respond here

Hari das,

I questioned the problems that I saw with Bhakti-Tirtha Swami at Gita-nagari because I could not stand to see high honors given to an unrepentant child molester or worship given to the men who were honoring him. I gave almost ten years to serving ISKCON as much as I could, naively believing it to be a pure spiritual society.

-iskcon is pure in essence but many individuals are in anartha nivritti stage, do not expect everyone to be a saint just yet-work on your own stuff is the best thing. regarding Vpandit, he did his time.....

Actually today is my ten year anniversary for my acceptance of Sri Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

-congrats prabhu, keep going for another 50, i have been around for 15

I take no pleasure in criticizing, but I’m upset that I put such faith in spiritual leaders who do not seem to understand how criminal it is for a middle-aged man to have sexual relationships with a child.

-BTS was on heavy painkillers and in a lot of pain besides he was trancending the body during all this and situating himself in his siddha swarupa. his sense of the externals was diminishing, dont blame him

As I see it, it is not aparadha to call a tilak-wearing person who lies "a liar," or one who molests children "a child molester;" but for a liar and a child molester to dress like a devotee and accept high honors, or for anyone to give him exhalted honors while knowing of their crimes, that is aparadha.

-prabhu, this is the cpo issue not mine, i do not know the full details but i do know that public talks about these things are upsetting many people, maybe be more low key and deal with those empowered to do so, no one on the forum can help you with this-it is just discussions that will not solve a single thing

Maybe you see it the other way around, but then I would expect that from someone who obviously accepts whatever the leaders tell you.

-there are many leaders i do not trust, but i trust my Guru BTS and so do many many others. He was leaving the body and that is turbulent-do not judge him for anything that happened during those last weeks-it is simply not fair

That is a proven method for attaining a leadership position yourself, so maybe you’re motivated by that.

-me a leader? no way, they wouldnt let me!I do not follow blindly and dont accept anyone based on their position alone-i have to TRUST THEM.

Personally, I want to live up to the standard of integrity that speaks from my heart, and that forbids me from honoring those who use Srila Prabhupada’s achievements to further their personal desires for fame and lording it over innocent Hare Krishna devotees.

-integrity is good, but we must also be sensitive to others feelings above our own, this is called selflesness

It may be your view that Bhakti-Tirtha Swami is only serving Srila Prabhupada and had no personal agenda, but that was not the way it looked to me; and I had every reason to be biased in his favor. I sacrificed my leadership position at Gita-nagari, my family's participation in the community, and many friendships because I had to speak up for what I believe in. If I could somehow be convinced that he was the pure devotee who you and your godbrothers and godsisters believe he is, I would fall flat on my face and beg forgiveness until I was out of breath and drained of tears. Actually I even did that, but I woke up the next morning and again saw the illusion for what it was, I’m sorry to say. I tried my very best to believe that your guru was a pure devotee of Sri Krishna, but belief does not immediately make a thing true. I wish him and you and everyone all success in spiritual life; it’s just that from what I’ve seen, I can’t help but think you’re being duped. I wish you could convince me otherwise.

-i cannot convince you, but maybe you should speak to some senior devotees in good standing who are not politicians or subtle rtvk. If you tried to see the sheer scale of BTS's works and successes then that might help you understand him better. He was with devotees chanting at the time of death so that guaranteed he went back to Godhead. even if he wasnt fully pure-he sure is now. besides i do not wish to tell the whole world that they should see my Guru as a pure devotee, rather i wish them only to aknowledge his achievments as well as the large amount of people he genuinely helped and this cannot be denied.
As far as me being duped, i feel like i am making advancement so it is working for me. But it is really not a good thing to go telling disciples of a guru that they are being duped-try to see how others may feel due to the words you use.

you can write me privatly on - abeggars_son@yahoo.co.uk

Hare Krishna

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/06/2005 11:48 PM PST

here we go again, another uninitiated devotee criticising a senior devotee-

"Hari Das said:

Oh really? That was what the GBC ruling decided, but I would be pretty surprised if you didn't know that they indeed are still being used.

-yes sometimes sentimental disciples have continued to use the term that cannot be denied

Many times during my time at Gita Nagari did I hear "All Glories to Krishnapada" and other variants.

-BTS himself told disciples to stop calling him that, when they did so at the vyasa puja he corrected them many times-i have this on tape

I've even had it spoken on the phone to me as a greeting when I was doing service for Bhakti Tirtha Swami, creating the program for his big gala Vyasa Puja this year. I've also seen many creative titles given to Bhakti Tirtha Swami on the BTswami list, including His Divine Grace.

-are you a rtvik? what is wrong with glorifying ones guru anyways

When Pandu brought this issue up with others on the community board at Gita Nagari he was told that the devotees in Africa wouldn't even know who "Bhakti Tirtha Swami" was and he just had to understand the "context". Interesting that his American disciples also use the name "Krishnapada" (one even has it as a yahoogroups username) when I'm sure they can 'understand'.

-the krsnapada on yahoogroups is using his INITIATED NAME WHICH IS KRSNAPADA DAS, get your facts right before speaking please!

Posted by Leslie Howard @ 10/06/2005 08:36 PM PST

Hari Das said:

"the honorifics ending in pada were not used anymore after the falldown of Harikesh, and all sanyassis in general were adressed as HH instead of HDG-again this is past tense"

Oh really? That was what the GBC ruling decided, but I would be pretty surprised if you didn't know that they indeed are still being used.

Many times during my time at Gita Nagari did I hear "All Glories to Krishnapada" and other variants. I've even had it spoken on the phone to me as a greeting when I was doing service for Bhakti Tirtha Swami, creating the program for his big gala Vyasa Puja this year. I've also seen many creative titles given to Bhakti Tirtha Swami on the BTswami list, including His Divine Grace.

When Pandu brought this issue up with others on the community board at Gita Nagari he was told that the devotees in Africa wouldn't even know who "Bhakti Tirtha Swami" was and he just had to understand the "context". Interesting that his American disciples also use the name "Krishnapada" (one even has it as a yahoogroups username) when I'm sure they can 'understand'.

Posted by Pandu das @ 10/06/2005 07:42 PM PST

Hari das,

I questioned the problems that I saw with Bhakti-Tirtha Swami at Gita-nagari because I could not stand to see high honors given to an unrepentant child molester or worship given to the men who were honoring him. I gave almost ten years to serving ISKCON as much as I could, naively believing it to be a pure spiritual society. Actually today is my ten year anniversary for my acceptance of Sri Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. I take no pleasure in criticizing, but I’m upset that I put such faith in spiritual leaders who do not seem to understand how criminal it is for a middle-aged man to have sexual relationships with a child.

As I see it, it is not aparadha to call a tilak-wearing person who lies "a liar," or one who molests children "a child molester;" but for a liar and a child molester to dress like a devotee and accept high honors, or for anyone to give him exhalted honors while knowing of their crimes, that is aparadha.

Maybe you see it the other way around, but then I would expect that from someone who obviously accepts whatever the leaders tell you. That is a proven method for attaining a leadership position yourself, so maybe you’re motivated by that. Personally, I want to live up to the standard of integrity that speaks from my heart, and that forbids me from honoring those who use Srila Prabhupada’s achievements to further their personal desires for fame and lording it over innocent Hare Krishna devotees.

It may be your view that Bhakti-Tirtha Swami is only serving Srila Prabhupada and had no personal agenda, but that was not the way it looked to me; and I had every reason to be biased in his favor. I sacrificed my leadership position at Gita-nagari, my family's participation in the community, and many friendships because I had to speak up for what I believe in. If I could somehow be convinced that he was the pure devotee who you and your godbrothers and godsisters believe he is, I would fall flat on my face and beg forgiveness until I was out of breath and drained of tears. Actually I even did that, but I woke up the next morning and again saw the illusion for what it was, I’m sorry to say. I tried my very best to believe that your guru was a pure devotee of Sri Krishna, but belief does not immediately make a thing true. I wish him and you and everyone all success in spiritual life; it’s just that from what I’ve seen, I can’t help but think you’re being duped. I wish you could convince me otherwise.

Hare Krishna

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/06/2005 05:09 PM PST

pandu wrote:

He also displayed an overblown need for honor (for example, "His Divine Grace Srila Krishnapada"); and in his Sunday program classes (which I remember not even one from him out of Bhagavad-gita) he rarely had much to say about Krishna until the last few weeks when he was facing imminent death. I recall feeling privileged to be there for those last classes when Krishna was his focus.

the honorifics ending in pada were not used anymore after the falldown of Harikesh, and all sanyassis in general were adressed as HH instead of HDG-again this is past tense

As far as Maharaja never really talking about Krsna, that is nonsense prabhu, maybe if you listened to his classes carefully you would realise that he was always talking about anartha nivritti and how to help devotees overcome obstacles in devotional service.

Srila Prabhupada was always called His Divine Grace, so does that mean that he was in need of honor?

The problem is that there a growing culture of aparadha as is exemplified by posts such as pandus, rocans and now Bhakti Viksasa"swami" has posted more crazy rantings......

one question- do you think that disciples of any guru in good standing should tolerate when persons blaspheme so publicly?

grow up and become real devotees and be good examples for others and speak the truth in a relevant way that is pleasing to the hearer.

people criticise iskcona and its leaders but fail to see their own faults in relishing prajalpa and aparadhic discussions that serve no other purpose than dragging down consciousness.

Posted by Pandu das @ 10/05/2005 07:32 PM PST

Hari das,

Your responses here sound like they're coming from a robot; and I’m familiar with your program. My experiences with Bhakti-Tirtha Swami and his disciples have left me with the impression that he was more of a cult leader than a genuine guru, and my getting to know them ended up being a very traumatic challenge to my faith in Krishna consciousness.

I gave him all respect and whatever service I could, and became friends with many of his disciples; but when he invited an unrepentant child molester to Gita-nagari, and I questioned it, they condemned me for it. That is how mundane oppressive cults work, not Krishna consciousness. When I raised an issue, there was much discussion of how dare I submit a pointed question in public (after my private questions went unanswered); and the responses to the question were shallow, faulty, canned talking points that I was expected to just accept.

He also displayed an overblown need for honor (for example, "His Divine Grace Srila Krishnapada"); and in his Sunday program classes (which I remember not even one from him out of Bhagavad-gita) he rarely had much to say about Krishna until the last few weeks when he was facing imminent death. I recall feeling privileged to be there for those last classes when Krishna was his focus.

Although my family was an integral part of the Gita-nagari community for two years, giving him many hours of service, the only time he spoke to us was shortly after we moved there, and that was basically just a "Hello, who are you?" He seemed too important to talk with us. Although I heard from others that he had said he appreciated our service, it would've been nice if he spoke to us personally.

Of course there were also aspects of him that touched me in a good way, but it's hard to remember them after such a cruel rejection by his disciples, especially those whom I thought were my friends. Also, it's not as easy for me to focus on the good in a person after I've been intimidated into accepting him as absolutely perfect and beyond question, when he clearly wasn’t. It’s very difficult for me to get over the severe disappointment of seeing my Hare Krishna friends lie to me, desperate to preserve their fantasy image of their perfect guru. I can't see much good about Bhakti-Tirtha Swami without first hoping that he would be ashamed of such crude behavior by his brahmana disciples. When so many of them, especially the leaders, readily and expertly took to lying and various kinds of dirty politics, it's hard not to think that he taught them like that.

...
Regarding Praghosh prabhu, I don't know anything about him other than what I can infer from the writing that provoked your response. That impression I get from it is that he's speaking honestly and openly according to his perception, and I respect and appreciate that a lot. Honesty is a point from which we can move forward.

Hare Krishna.

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/05/2005 04:20 PM PST

and this below from rocan dasa cannot be overlooked without due question as to its validity.....

"We never hear the question asked, why was Bhakti Tirtha Swami suddenly struck down by debilitating cancer? What divine forces might have contributed to his departure? Could it possibly be due to his past activities, offenses or perhaps his attempts to change the siddhanta?

-rocan prabhu, have you no sensitivity? BTS left his body recently and you are talking openly about offenses and changes to the siddhanta? please tell us what offenses BTS committed and EXACTLY HOW he made changes to the siddhanta. You cannot expect to make such statements without giving CLEAR EVIDENCE AND EXAMPLES OF SUCH. have you no consideration for the disciples of BTS??

No one within ISKCON’s power structure dares to pose these obvious questions.

-these types of questions if raised should be done in the proper manner, not on public forums such as these. Concerns should be raised if evidence is there to back up such, if not it is just gossip.....

Un-sentimentally applying our philosophy to real life scenarios is our business and tradition, but when that might cause ISKCON’s rosy re-written history to be blemished, the practice is abandoned.

In the distant past and in the early eighties, when I was the Regional Secretary for East Africa, I had the unfortunate opportunity to deal with Bhakti Tirtha Swami.

-in which way was it unfortunate-share with us prabhu, and please be truthful, you seem to be one of very few people with negative things to say about BTS

As such, I am aware of many untold stories of his Africa adventures, which I won’t get into here.

-the stories which have been published have no foundation, just rumours made up by bitter people who dwell on their negative mindsets. please provide proof and witnesses IN GOOD STANDING.

These details are known and hidden by the GBC. Who do they think they are protecting? The truth will always eventually be made public, and they will be left looking like cover-up conspirators. Their credibility will further deteriorate. That is the inescapable result.

-yes,just like your credibility is now waning due to the negativities you are promoting wherein at first you claimed to some devotees who have written me off list to express that they feel like you tricked them into participating in a forum which was to help devotees make spiritual advancement.

I propose a challenge prabhu, you are disrespecting my Guru and as a disciple i have the right to defend him. If you are so convinced BTS is bad and has done bad things, then list them (the ones you have evidence for) and then also make a list of the genuine accomplishments he had and see and indeed we will all see which has the greater number.

i look forward to seeing how you will respond prabhu and please be more sensitive as to how you present details of a recently departed soul who gave his life to Srila Prabhupada, think about his disciples and how they are feeling-are your words helping them any?

hari dasa

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/05/2005 12:55 PM PST

and regarding this gutter stuff!

"Hari Dasa Prabhu is asking judging by the results but then he should answer the following:

(1) Possible poisoning of Srila Prabhupada to clear the way to become Zonal Acharyas.

-ooooooooh no, the poison issue, please get a life-this is boring and not at all factual!

(2) Unauthorized Creation of Zonal Acharya System and then of Guru Rubber Stamping Factory (Disbanding of Rittvik System).

-oh noooooooooo, rtvik vada, get a life and a guru who will directly tell you what to do when you need instruction and chastisement!

(3) Abuse, molestation, and intimidation of men, women, and children and its ongoing cover up to promote bogus Zonal Achrya System and the current Guru Rubber Stamping Factory at any cost.

-iskcon now has the cpo, not my business to get involved here,but if you are concerned maybe join their team and try to work with others instead of criticising them?

(4) Unauthorized changing of Srila Prabhupada’s Books.

-read Jayadavaita Maharajas explanation, i think you will find it conclusive, if you accept authority with a humble heart that is

(5) Biggest loss – 95% or more of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples were either thrown out or left ISKCON

-Prabhupadas movement is voluntary, if some left of their own accord that is their choice, if some were ousted out, then why were they thrown out-what did they do?

(6) Catastrophic decline in distribution of BTG from 1,000, 000 (yes one million) per month in 1975 to almost nothing.

-maybe distribute them yourself?

(7) Catastrophic decline in distribution of Srila Prabhupada’s books.

-go out and make a difference, complaining will not solve the problem

(8) Catastrophic decline in Harinam distribution.

-nothing stopping you from encouraging others and going out yourself!

(9) Catastrophic decline in Prasadam Distribution.

-can you cook prasad? if so go distribute also

(10) Rampant mismanagement of the institution.

-rampant? how bout rampant unapreciation for the good that is happening?

(11) Instead of glory of flourishing ISKCON we are facing days of gloom and doom.

-get a life and travel and you will see many sucess stories if you visit temples

Please answer above questions in light of the present status as opposed to status of ISKCON in 1977.

-please understanding that your consciousness is focused on negativities and will affect others based on your mindsets. you can make a difference if you become more positive, regarding rtvk and poison issues and declines, what can i say? that is your corrupted vision not mine

Wishing You All Well,
YS- Gadadhar Dasa

Posted by hari dasa @ 10/05/2005 12:46 PM PST

regarding this unpleasant quote from bill:

Dear Hari das,
PAMHO.AGTSP.
I think you need to grow up prabhu.You belong to the fanatic zone.
Just tell me why BTS used to dress so strangely???Totally unvaishnavic not in line with Vaishnava dress.Why did he encourage his disciples to distribute his books instead of Srila Prabhupada's books?Was is it because he was so convinced that his books were better than Srila Prabhupada's??Why was it that he was such a staunch supporter of Kirtananda, a renowed homosexual??did you ever read about Bhakti Vikash Swami's accusations against BTS??
where are your answers prabhu??

1-BTS was a preacher who used different methods to get in to peoples zones i.e new ages zones, professional zones etc... he used IMAGE to preach and it worked. I do not think it is bills position to judge, after all you are just a bhakta and to judge a senior vaisnava who did good work for iskcon is an offense, i suggest you get proper training and stop looking at discussion forums and maybe read some books to see how to behave.

2-BTS sold many books, but requested disciples to continue selling Prabhupadas, many times disciples asked if they could print masses of his books and sell them on the street, he said NO sell Prabhupadas books as priority and i heard this with my own ears

3-BTS WAS a supporter of Kirtanananda but LEFT him, past tense, why do you dwell on the past?get a life and think of the positive

4-regarding Bhakti Vikasa swami, most of his godbrothers didnt like his tone, maybe if you studied the replied given by BTS to him you will see a humble approach. Bhakti Vikasa Maharaja will not be guru for long, he is under investigation for going around telling BTS disciples to reject their guru and that is NOT vaisnava behaviour

bill, i suggest you study ALL the facts and make an investigation before typing things out. if you were to understand the sheer volume and sucess of BTS preaching then you would have more appreciation. As an uninitiated devotee i feel you should keep your opinions to yourself-and be more sensitive to those who are disciples of BTS who are still grieving due to his leaving the body rather recently.

learn some humility and correct judgement first before associating with vaisnavas on this level or you will commit more offenses.

you ask BTS godbrothers who are IN GOOD STANDING about him and see what they say, do not listen to those who have no position and are envious due to having no guru or GBC post.

think about it, your words will affect your spiritual life, i suggest you apologise to BTS disciples

Posted by bhaktin Miriam @ 10/04/2005 10:59 PM PST

I really liked and admired Bhakti Tirtha Swami. But I must say, I was very dissapointed when he invited a child molester to sing and give classes in Gita-Nagari before he left his body.
I cannot condone what he did. I think it was extremely poor judgement in his part. Worse yet, he left the impression that he didn't care for the victim. That was callous in his part.

Posted by gadadhar Dasa @ 10/04/2005 07:06 PM PST

Those who want to know how much Srila Prabhupada liked TKG and other leaders should read at least 1977 "Conversations With Srila Prabhupada" volumes 30 to 36 and try to understand what HDG Srila Prabhupada has repeatedly said such as:

"aims and aspirations of ISKCON may be spoiled"

"Big big buildings - will become bird nests"

"Disciple will think Guru (I) have given them Galagraha not Shri Vigraha - burden of maintaining temple not the pleasure of devotional service to Shri Vigraha"

So what is status of ISKCON in terms of the above comments of HDG Srila Prabhupada.

Hari Dasa Prabhu is asking judging by the results but then he should answer the following:

(1) Possible poisoning of Srila Prabhupada to clear the way to become Zonal Acharyas.
(2) Unauthorized Creation of Zonal Acharya System and then of Guru Rubber Stamping Factory (Disbanding of Rittvik System).
(3) Abuse, molestation, and intimidation of men, women, and children and its ongoing cover up to promote bogus Zonal Achrya System and the current Guru Rubber Stamping Factory at any cost.
(4) Unauthorized changing of Srila Prabhupada’s Books.
(5) Biggest loss – 95% or more of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples were either thrown out or left ISKCON
(6) Catastrophic decline in distribution of BTG from 1,000, 000 (yes one million) per month in 1975 to almost nothing.
(7) Catastrophic decline in distribution of Srila Prabhupada’s books.
(8) Catastrophic decline in Harinam distribution.
(9) Catastrophic decline in Prasadam Distribution.
(10) Rampant mismanagement of the institution.
(11) Instead of glory of flourishing ISKCON we are facing days of gloom and doom.

Please answer above questions in light of the present status as opposed to status of ISKCON in 1977.

Wishing You All Well,
YS- Gadadhar Dasa

Posted by the pink lady @ 10/04/2005 05:00 PM PST

To Haripada:

Well Sir, you ask why BTS dressed as he did from time to time. Perhaps for the aske of preaching, as did Bhaktisiddhnata. Of course i understadn that you have done practically no preaching in the last 10 years plus so this may be difficult for you to understand. ever see the picture of Bhaktisiddhanta;s preachers in black with priest colors?

You ask why he encouraged his disciples to distribute his own books rather than those of his guru. Does this really even warrant a response? Why did Prabhupada encourage his disciples to distribute his books, instead of those of his guru of Bhaktivinoda?

Why was he supportive of Kirtanananda for so long? Well, why was Srila Prabhupada a staunch supporter of Kirtanananda? Did he not know that Kirtananda had homosexual leanings? Why did Prabhupada give him sannyasa? And finally, why did BTS sever hs connection with Kirtananda when his moral transgression became public knowledge.

As for Bhakti Vikash Swami, like you, he belongs to the fanatic zone. Get a life.

Posted by Haripada das @ 10/04/2005 12:17 PM PST

Dear Hari das,
PAMHO.AGTSP.
I think you need to grow up prabhu.You belong to the fanatic zone.
Just tell me why BTS used to dress so strangely???Totally unvaishnavic not in line with Vaishnava dress.Why did he encourage his disciples to distribute his books instead of Srila Prabhupada's books?Was is it because he was so convinced that his books were better than Srila Prabhupada's??Why was it that he was such a staunch supporter of Kirtananda, a renowed homosexual??did you ever read about Bhakti Vikash Swami's accusations against BTS??
where are your answers prabhu??

Posted by Bill @ 09/30/2005 10:14 AM PST

Ragaputra:
I promise you if I ever see Kirtanananda acting inappropriately I will reject his Spiritual misplacement.
Hare Krsna!

Posted by Ragaputra das @ 09/29/2005 08:53 PM PST

In response to Bill, I can only assume your comment was tounge in cheek or that you intended to provoke outrage. How many more names could be added to the list that "were good enough for Prabhupada" whose litanies of evil are longer than your arm. No doubt these souls rendered valuable service, but one should not follow them into the abyss.

Your servant,

Ragaputra dasa

Posted by Bill @ 09/28/2005 04:15 AM PST

Whatever you want to say about Bhakti Tirtha, or Kirtanananda that is your opinion. They served Prabhupada and Prabhupada accepted them. If they were good enough for Prabhupada then they are good enough for me. Hare Krsna!

Posted by Jyotirmaya das @ 09/28/2005 12:09 AM PST

I had a medical miracle happen to me on the very day Gurudeva passed away. There was no medical reason why I was cured on that day. I knew deep in the core of my heart as he was departing that day that my debilitting Illness(which I posted on the BTSwami yahoo website and do not wish to explain here again)was being relieved by his loving grace. He was taking my karma -- there was no doubt in my mind at all -- and I never even knew about any letter he asked Satsvarupa Maharaja to write, or even his own prayers to Krishna regarding taking karma on behalf of devotees and others for the benefit of the world.

All I can say is things like this just do not happen when an ordinary Vaishnava passes on. He was an exceptional devotee to say the least.

Pragaosh das wrote: >>HH Bhakti Tirhta Swami suffered some confusion no doubt. His writings clearly demonstrated that. He was misguided in his youth by HH Kirtanananda Swami. This is a simple historical fact. That "training" left him with certain misunderstandings.<<

I would like to know exactly what "misunderstandings" Praghosa prabhu thinks Bhakta Tirtha Maharaja was left with.

Posted by Praghosa Das @ 09/26/2005 07:06 PM PST

Hello Prabhus,
Having gone through an acute struggle with my own health, I have a particular perspective on this subject concerning the passing of HH Bhakti Tirtha Swami.

Maharaja of course fancied himself many things, and was also fond of sharing those perceptions of himself with those who might "see what he assumed he was seeing". He had a particular "vision" as he would say and this persisted up to the end. It was what it was. There is so much that could have been said about his writings or his "ideas" etc. However as he has now moved on - there is not too much point in devoting too much time to any negative aspects of his ideas, precisely because he is no longer here to promulgate them and I honestly do not see there being too much chance of any of his ideas generating much interest in his absence. That may sound harsh or insensitive to some. However the world is essentially - a market. We offer the market our goods, services, and IDEAS. All of these "offerings" must be purchased in some manner. Either with our money or our energy and labor. My assessment is that the musings of HH Bhakti Tirtha Swami, on all the subjects he presented, are not something the general "market" is really going to exert much energy to obtain or realize. Nothing I have seen in his writings or history tells me otherwise.

In the end - he was fortunately surrounded by sincere devotees who spoke NOTHING of the stuff he liked to get into. They all - to the man - simply chanted the Holy Name and encouraged him with their service and affection to immerse himself in the hearing and chanting of the glories of the Lord and His Holy Name. Likewise they all emphasized recounting the glories of our Srila Prabhupada. That he was blessed to have THAT spiritual ambiance in his final months and moments is the real testimony to his being cherished by Srila Prabhupada and Lord Krsna.

His good fortune - in those most trying moments - is what will ultimately be remembered the most about him.

When our Godbrother Jayananda Prabhu passed in 1976, our Srila Prabhupada composed a letter of condolence to him. Within it Srila Prabhupada confirmed Jayananda's good fortune when he said to the effect that "Since I have heard that you were chanting the Holy Name at the final moment of your life, I have no doubt that you have returned home Back to Godhead".

HH Bhakti Tirhta Swami suffered some confusion no doubt. His writings clearly demonstrated that. He was misguided in his youth by HH Kirtanananda Swami. This is a simple historical fact. That "training" left him with certain misunderstandings. We are all a work in progress and he was as well. We can take heart though, for as Lord Krsna promised in the Bhagavad Gita - He will carry what we lack and preserve what we have if we but offer our energy to Him in a spirit of devotion. The events of his passing from this world serve as a testament to the Lord's above cited statement.

Clearly - the Lord was kind upon Maharaja and allowed him to leave this world sorrounded by devotees chanting His name. He accomplishes many things at once. Maharaja had finished whatever good he could accomplish here (otherwise it is obvious the Lord would never have taken him) and simultaneously - the negative consequences of some aspects of Maharaja's fanciful ideas and methods were terminated with little commotion. Lord Krsna works in amazing and utterly simple ways. In SSR Srila Prabhupada comments on JFK's passing as being "undesired" by many - YET unavoidable - due to his being obliged to submit to the will of the Lord. Srila Prabhupada said to Lord Krsna in the Boston Harbor that "I do not know WHY you have brought me here. Now you can do whatever you like. I guess you have some business here; otherwise why would you have brought me to this horrible place!"

So whether the Lord brings us to this "horrible place" or takes us out - He has some purpose, HIS purpose, and we just have to accept it.

My own estimation is that some men, like HH Bhakti Tirtha Swami or HH Tamal Krsna Gosvami, are no longer capable of doing as much good as they are of perhaps unintentionally doing harm, beings so positioned as they were, and thus the Lord allows them to gracefully leave the stage of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada, before they cause more harm than they could if they remained.

Subtly - both HH Bhakti Tirtha Swmami and HH Tamal Krsna Gosvami were introducing elements of speculation and invention into the mission of Srila Prabhupada that, coming from less important men - would have long ago been dealt with swiftly and correctly - but because they were coming from them - the mission was essentially under attack and the Lord saw fit to allow them a safe and wonderful exit, while safeguarding the mission established by our Srila Prabhupada.

In the end - both of these men will be remebered for their earlier simplicity and for the wondeful final mercy and sweetness shown them by Lord Krsna. That is the most important aspect to their lives and their departure.

No doubt they are dear to His Divine Grace and he has reenlisted them in his service in some capacity that will take full advantage of all they possessed worth "preserving" to futher the success of his mission.

Sincerely Praghosa Das

Posted by naikaja @ 09/16/2005 03:43 AM PST

Krishna is suprime controllor and He knows all and everybody in all times everywhere.We dont need to worry...we have to chant His names and not waste time in prajalpa.We are not Krishna.WE have to do our best and try to spred names of Krishna everywhere..

Posted by Brian @ 09/12/2005 04:52 PM PST

Hare krsna One main question I have is whats wrong with Iskcon today.What needs to happen to have it run properly now? I'm not anti-Iskcon there are alot of nice devotees in the movement sort of hanging in there hopeing that things will get better.We cant change the past but we can make a difference now.Brian in Beaverton.

Posted by Nitya Siddha dasa @ 09/11/2005 12:16 AM PST

I read with interest some of the comments made about Bhakti Tirtha swami's death.
When I first joined Iskcon early in 1978,Bhakti Tirtha swami,(who was then known as Ganishrama(excuse the spelling)dasa) was residing at BHAKTIVEDANTA MANOR in England.At that time he was part of the BBT library programme to get Srila Prabhupada's books into as many libraries as possible.I remember observing at Breakfast prasadama that Bhakti Tirtha swami did not eat the normal temple prasadam.Instead everyday he used to eat the same meal which consisted of a raw carrot,an apple,some raisins and some butter.It appeared that this is all he ate for breakfast everyday.When I heard the news that Bhakti Tirtha swami got cancer,I was somewhat surprised.Not only because he always looked so healthy and effulgent whenever I saw him in person, but also I had observed that he appeared to strictly adhere to a healthy diet.So why did he die of cancer?
More recently shortly after his departure I read one possible explanation put forward by Satsvarupa swami.In his Chakra article he states that Bhakti Tirtha swami wanted to take the karma of all of his disciples as well as everyone on the planet and that this was the cause of his sudden illness and consequent death.He further states that he did not expect to get so sick so quickly,assuming that his prayers to take the burden of world's karma on his own head was actually having it's effect on him?Are we members of the esteemed Vaishnava community expected to believe that this is a plausible explanation for Bhakti Tirtha Swamis departure from this world?And why has no one contested this theory on Chakra or any other Vaishnava forum?Can any one of us be egocentric enough to believe that we would have this much importance in the eyes of the Supreme Lord?I don't think so, at least while the vast majority of us are still insignificant and offensive neophytes in devotional life.Perhaps other members of the GBC or vaishnava community might have an alternative even more colourful theory as to why Bhakti Tirtha Swami departed so quickly?

Posted by Bhagavata dasa @ 09/05/2005 12:33 PM PST

You mentioned that Srila Prabhupada stated that a celibate meat eating priest was far more advanced than a sex-enjoyer who was vegetarian!

A devotee is beyond a celibate priest and a vegetarian.

Your tone about sex doesn't serve the devotees well.
Sex is the greatest hurdle for ANY devotee.
Trying to surpress the sex desire has caused so many problems within Iskcon. (windle turley)
Devotees should be encouraged to get married and have nice Krishna conscious children, not to surpress the natural urges of sex.
If a devotee does give in to the pleasure of sex, they can still chant Hare Krishna and go on with their spiritual life.
To make them feel guilty (as in your above post) only serves to weaken there resolve to become a better devotee. Would Srila Prabhupada want them to go away without trying?
Who is better? A meat eating priest, a vegetarian sex-enjoyer, or a devotee who chants Hare Krishna, but due to the strong urges of sex desire falls down sometimes?
Most Iskcon devotees are victims anyway.
Since 1977 they have been subject to witnessing guru's whom they looked upon as good as God having illicit sexual relationships.
How can the rank and file members of Iskcon be expected to uphold the regulative principles under such bad examples of leadership?

Posted by Berna @ 08/29/2005 03:26 AM PST

My sincere inquiry is about a teacher known as Jagad Guru Siddhaswarupananda who is based in Hawaii and also has a youth school in the Philipines. I would like to hear from anyone with respect and sincere thoughts about this man, his devotees and his work. I believe he was within Iskon at one time and then left to continue his work. Please write to me.

Posted by Brian @ 08/17/2005 09:50 PM PST

I read the church of rtvik by
Rocana dasa . Bottom line why cant anyone give iniation in Iskcon thats the way it should be.
Hear me out this is for new Bhaktas they should be able to pick their Diksa Guru and take iniation from him. Provided he has been iniatated by Srila Prabhupada. He must also be strickly following. Hey... share Prabhupada. All diksas should be aloud. to iniatate. Not we say who can initate. Hare krsna Rocana Brian in Beaverton

Posted by Pita das @ 08/17/2005 05:54 PM PST

Concerning the opions of Srila Prabhupada on homo sex I was just listening to a taped conversation in melborne to a social worker 1975 where Srila Prabhupdada very clearly stated that" we are looking to produce frist class men"

"We do not care about the opinions of the karmis which can not follow the 4 regualitive priciples,thier opinons are insane
no one cares for the opinions of insane men."

Srila Prabhupada then related a story of how catholic priests were
haveing to be placed in homes because of acholism.

He then said he saw an article in the paper watch tower where priests were condoneing homo sex marrage ,

Here Srila Prabhupada very clearly says "we do not care for such low class opinons ,if they want this they can go away we can not change."

"I never cared what the westerners throught of the no illicit sex rule if they can not follow they can go away."

If our godbrothers preach diffrently than our founder acarya then they also should go away .
Because we have time and time again pointed this out to them they have made us go away.

And if they do not learn from what has happened to Jaya Tirtha ,and others Krishna will remove them forceabley.

In no way is this aparadha to say such things rather it is much more of an aparadha to speak words against the concludison of our founder acaryar just to please the masses
Jai Goura Nitai
YS
pita das

Posted by Brian @ 08/16/2005 12:01 AM PST

I joined Iskcon in 81 and stayed in until 87. I left because I felt I needed to sort things out.
Most Devotees will agree that some acted in maya while in the movement.If I go back to Iskcon I pray to krsna I will Never Bloop.
But at the same time I will be quick to point out any devotees in maya.I will not suport any devotee acting in maya for his own personal gain. I want to go back to Iskcon but I dont want to
suport maya activites. Any advice?

Posted by Dana @ 08/11/2005 10:44 AM PST

HDG Srila Prabhupada once remarked that a celibate, meat-eating priest, was much more spiritually advanced than a sex-enjoyer who was vegetarian.

From this, we can logically conclude that abstaining from sex-for-pleasure is more critical than being a vegetarian, for those seeking spiritual advancement.

If the practice of engaging in sex-for-pleasure is now going to be accepted by ISKCON, (in spite of HDG Srila Prabhupada's unambiguous "four regulative principals",) then ISKCON should also adopt a policy of 'not excluding' those who advocate, and have no desire to end, the practice of meat-eating.

After all, if they, (ISKCON,) now stand ready to 'not exclude' those who have no desire to end the more-serious violation, (of the 'four regs',) then clearly they should not exclude those who have no desire to end the less-serious violation.

To 'accept' those who choose to deny HDG Srila Prabhupada's regulation against sex-for-pleasure, while still refusing to accept those who choose to deny His regulation against meat-eating, is to expose the true nature of the acceptance of the former.

There is no "need" for sex-pleasure of ANY sort, and HDG Srila Prabhupada made clear that abstinence from such sense-enjoyment is a more critical 'reg' than abstinence from meat-eating.

Sacrificing quality of association, for quantity, was very clearly spoken-against by HDG Srila Prabhupada.

All in this age are fallen, and all are fully eligible for liberation. All sincere souls should be welcomed into the association of Devotees. But those who speak against the philosophy and practices of Vaisnavism, including any of the four principals, must be seen as the false-ego-guided neophytes that they are.

Advocating violation of the rules of spiritual life is a grave disservice to those sincere souls who work hard trying to live by those rules.

To begin to dismantle the very foundation of regulated spiritual life, is to remove the purity of the Harinam Sankirtana Movement.

If none remain, within ISKCON, who are willing to stand by His legacy, there will simply no longer be any point in going forward.

Pretending to help deliver the fallen souls, while actually abandoning the difficult path of spiritual life for the very easy path of sex, has the polar-opposite affect as honestly trying to help deliver them.

Posted by Rocana dasa @ 08/03/2005 06:13 AM PST

Dear Nandu Suna dasa,

Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

In response to your statements as to the “auspicious” departure of HH Bhakti Tirtha Swami being indicative of his advanced state, I beg to differ. At the present time there is much debate concerning the lack of concern and attention paid to “common” non-guru devotees who are receiving little or no help from the society they served selflessly their entire lives. Meanwhile, the Gurus are treated as good, if not better, than Srila Prabhupada himself. Your assumption that it was none other than Lord Sri Krsna who personally orchestrated the auspicious surroundings you describe, rather than his devoted followers and friends, is a bit naïve.

As far as HH Bhakti Tirtha Swami’s eating, sleeping, preaching and traveling habits as compared to anyone else’s, that I don’t take into serious consideration when evaluating just how advanced he was or what his next destination may be. As for your concept of Bhakti Tirtha Swami’s consistent and surrendered service, by what measure, exactly, are you judging his consistency? How are you measuring the degree of his surrender?

My personal past experiences involving Bhakti Tirtha Swami were in an official capacity in Africa, as mentioned in my article. I also had many very unpleasant, long-term encounters with his past mentor, Bhakti-fraud Kirtanananda, and those stories could fill volumes with their scandalous content. Be thankful I don’t get into those historical details, for they would certainly take some of the blush off Bhakti Tirtha Swami’s rosy past.

Regardless of historical facts, questionable symptoms, bizarre behavior and obvious character flaws, there will always be personalities like yourself who will turn-off their intelligence, ignore sastra, guru, and sädhu, and continue to worship such personalities unquestioningly, with blind obedience. That’s why it took ten years to end the Zonal Acarya System, and the surviving Zonals still hold such great power. There still exists a see, speak, and hear no evil policy regarding certain Holy Diksa gurus and GBC. One who artificially props-up and defends such Pundraka-like personalities is inadvertently contributing to the deterioration of Srila Prabhupada’s Movement

Posted by Nanda Sunu dasa @ 08/02/2005 01:51 PM PST

"why was Bhakti Tirtha Swami suddenly struck down by debilitating cancer? What divine forces might have contributed to his departure? Could it possibly be due to his past activities, offenses or perhaps his attempts to change the siddhanta? "

If this was so then why was it such a glorious departure? Why would Krishna allow someone who has attempted to change His siddhanta to leave this world so calmly, absorbed in the chanting of hundreds of devotees, decorated with Maha Maha tualsi, Giriraj, in the prescence of Radha Syamasundara, in one of Prabhupadas dearest projects?

I humbly request you be very careful before make judgements on devotees who have wholeheartedly given themselves to serving Srila Prabhupada and Krishna. There are few who can say that they have traveled more, slept less, preached more strongly or made as many devotees as HH Bhakti Tirtha Swami. This kind of consistant and surrendered service is not possible for someone who is not empowered.

Posted by Jahnava devi @ 07/30/2005 10:14 PM PST

Dear Gaura dasa,

Hare Krsna. No, we are not a Rtvik site, nor are we Rtvik supporters. Please see Rocana's paper on the matter, which clearly defines our position: The Church of Rtvik.

You'll find additional detailed information on our personal siddhantic understanding at: Sampradaya Acarya.

Posted by Gaura dasa @ 07/30/2005 09:51 PM PST

Are you a ritvik site.

Posted by Kaliya Damona Das @ 07/27/2005 08:43 AM PST

Keep on chanting. All your offenses and mine will fall to the wayside one day. Pray this happens to you and I. Keep on chanting my friend.
IN SERVICE, Kaliya

Posted by Damodara dasa @ 07/23/2005 06:35 AM PST

as is typical of many heterosexual men, Rocana lumps homosexuality in with child molestation and other unsavory subjects. you are wrong, so wrong, in doing so.

i also wonder what you will say, when your - or your wife's - aging body is struck-down with a terrible disease or horrible accident.

you remain in your own eyes a pundit.

i think you're just another pompous "holier than thou" dude, who's got his own very unsavory womanizing past to cover.

bye to you, sport.

Posted by jairam das (26 2nd ave one) @ 07/15/2005 12:03 AM PST

In regard to Shiva Das letter: We know that there are many indiscepencies in this world. Just because we have entered and are humbly attempting to follow the Rupanuga Line, which was given to us by the Mercy only of our Acharyas, does not gaurantee that we are immediately in the Spiritual World and immunized from our previous karmic reactions and material gunas. These things continue to be present in spite of the fact that we are attempting to practice.
I understand the frustration devottees may feel: However, I would suggest that in spite of the wrongs we think we are percieving, our job as sadhakas is to ignore our tendencies to criticise, lest we also become infected with Vaisnava aparadha. Better to see that even the worst case scenario is given to us as "Prasad" by "Him" and that there is underlying cause to help us grow in our practice. In other words - "The universe is friendly" to those who are properly adjusted. Please have faith and ignore as far as possible the "barking dog"(Maya) that are always present along the path that has chosen Us. Vaishnava Apardha is our greatest danger in this regard. Most of the problems with our ISKCON may be traced directly or indirectly to this egragious offense. "As you see it, so it is". Therefore I ask all Devottees to continue to do the best that they can with their given circumstance, and to keep their focus "Upward", and overlook the faults of others, see the glass as "half-full", and be merciful to all, just as our Acharya(s) have been merciful to us.
JaiRam Das

Posted by Nitai @ 07/14/2005 02:49 PM PST

Gauranga

Srila Prabhupada said somewhere that when one tels one criticism after that one should tell three good things. My opinion is that if we would practice this the atmosphere within ISKCON would be much more nicer and the devotees who hear the criticism would also try to improve rather then fight back with contra-criticism. Maybe this opinion can cause a heated up conversation but the ultimate test is whether we follow Srila Prabhupada: 1 criticism - 3 praises. I think we could more quickly overcome our accompanying faultfinding tendency what is the main cause also for our faults.

Hare Krishna
Nitai

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