May 27, 2013 — CANADA (SUN) — Studying Srila Prabhupada's conversations with ISKCON leaders.
Today's Talks is inspired by Srila Prabhupada's morning walk of May 28, 1975 in Rome. You can listen to the audio or read the transcript of this conversation here.
Dhananjaya, Satsvarupa, and Yogesvara Prabhus are the persons primarily speaking with Srila Prabhupada throughout this conversation. As noted later in the transcript, Rome is Bhagavan's zone, and he was the GBC. For whatever reason he wasn't attending himself, although Yogesvara mentions Bhagavan and a book he's supposedly been writing. He also says there are some questions that Bhagavan asked Yogesvara to pose to Srila Prabhupada
Srila Prabhupada begins and ends this morning walk on a theme based on the principle of living locally -- that a civilized man, he will live locally. In other words, he won't unnecessarily travel around, but will find everything he needs to live simply, locally. He gives the example that even people living in Greenland are forced to live locally because no one else wants to live nearby.
I can't help but think that this philosophy of living locally was one of the basics of Srila Prabhupada's management program. Each temple was considered an independent entity, separately incorporated, and those who joined locally would stay in the local temples under the auspices of the Temple President, who usually came from that area, too. Everything would stay local. Srila Prabhupada dictated that management should never be centralized. The local leaders and devotees could be expected to know how to preach in their local area and would have an attachment for that area. They wouldn't unnecessarily travel outside that area except for pilgrimage, which would be the Mayapur festival or Vrindavan once a year.
This theme has deteriorated into what we find today, which is more and more centralization, bureaucracy, and many new recruits being initiated by gurus outside their local areas. The new initiates then want to leave the area to either go to India or be with their guru. Few want to just stay in the area where they joined and dedicate themselves to preaching there, under the direction of the local temple leadership. The gurus do not emphasize the "stay local" point at all, consequently their disciples just do what they please. Neither do the big gurus instruct their disciples to accept a local senior devotee as a siksa guru, under whose guidance they can help the local preaching scene, as was the case when Srila Prabhupada was here.
Satsvarupa enters the discussion and explains that nowadays, with transportation the way it is, people are looking at the world as if it's a global village. You can travel so easily, and it's seen as a good education to travel. Srila Prabhupada replies that in India, people live locally most of their life, but they travel on pilgrimage by walking to get their spiritual education. They don't just travel for the sake of engaging their senses.
When the question of education comes up, Srila Prabhupada goes right into the fact that in the Western educational institutions, the student are living as hippies, having sex and running naked, which is just the same as animal life. In other words, the civilization is really animal-like, but now the students are bringing it to its ultimate conclusion -- that you run around like animals and have sex anytime, which is the ultimate conclusion of animal existence. Srila Prabhupada sticks to this theme of materialistic civilization being simply animal civilization.
Yogesvara then brings up a issue that is currently very topical -- the appearance of terrorists. Srila Prabhupada answers in the most sensible way, again based on the theme that everyone is basically an animal, so why is everyone surprised when some of these animals are ferocious? This gives us such an interesting perspective on what's happening in the world today. Just like tigers, the terrorists of today are irrational. Srila Prabhupada says a human being is called 'rational animal'. If you come to rationality, that is required. If you remain an animal, that will not help you. Of course, the ultimate rationality is to become a devotee of Krsna and understand one's eternal transcendental position as a servant of the Lord. What's astounding about the terrorists' position of today is that it's so irrational, which is very much like animals. You're my enemy due to some material designation, and let's kill anyone who's the enemy. It's just another symptom of the animal life.
The Islamic terrorists are using God as their ultimate weapon, justifying their ferocity as being some kind of service to Allah, but it's obvious to any rational person that this is not the case at all. They're simply trying to exploit the foolish animals under their jurisdiction to act ferociously on their behalf, without a rational cause.
Srila Prabhupada had to break us of our attachment for Western civilization, and made it abundantly clear that we were brought up as animals and we have to break our attachment to this kind of civilization. Especially for Americans, Srila Prabhupada said we think we have a big nation, just like a dog thinks he has a big, stout body and is therefore able to bark at everybody. Saying you're a big nation with a big bark is just being a more sophisticated type of animal.
Srila Prabhupada gives another interesting example of men that go to naked dances, and he brings this theme up several times. Old men go to see women dancing naked, and pay some exorbitant fee to do so. Even though they see their wife naked every day, still they go to naked dance shows, behaving very much like animals. "He is simply chewing the, one bone, this way, that way, this way, that way. Because he is animal. He has no other engagement."
Srila Prabhupada brings the devotees back to their responsibility, which is that we have to counteract these influences for the benefit of human society. That is, we have to preach what is real in human society. That was his goal and mandate.
The story of Alexander the Great and the thief is a recurring theme that Srila Prabhupada mentions here, wherein the thief convinces Alexander that he's no different than Alexander himself, but that Alexander is just doing it on a bigger scale. Based on that logic, Alexander lets the thief go.
Yogesvara states that there are many people known as 'social reformers' who would agree with Srila Prabhupada because they want to stop war and stop people killing each other unnecessarily. Srila Prabhupada doesn't agree, but says that the reformers themselves are animals. Unless they become Krsna conscious, they can't reform anything or anybody.
Srila Prabhupada mentions that although he is condemning the western mode of life, still western young boys, they have come. "I never came to speak to flatter you, that Your western civilization is very nice. I never said that. Why you are coming? I never came to flatter you, neither I never came to say, Yes, there is no God. I am speaking just opposite, everything opposite." Srila Prabhupada points out that what he's saying is based on sound knowledge, and therefore we're accepting it.
Yogesvara brings up the fact that in Italy, a very catholic country, they've just passed a divorce law. Srila Prabhupada replies that this is another example of animal life. Then Yogesvara brings up the point that if people can't get along together, it's better that they separate. Srila Prabhupada responds by saying that it's all based on sex life, and that if it wasn't that way, then there wouldn't be so much divorce. He brings up the example of Sukadeva Goswami walking naked as a brahmacari, and the bathing women who didn't cover themselves when he passed by. But when the father, Vyasadeva, passed by, they covered themselves due to the fact that Vyasadeva had to distinguish between man and woman because he was married.
Srila Prabhupada mentions that some of his students would get married, then find out how difficult marriage is. Then, they'd want to take sannyasa. He called this very irresponsible. Why they would want to get married? They knew as his students that the reason they were getting married was because they wanted sex. They knew how many difficulties were involved with marriage. Still, they got married and discovered that it really wasn't worth it. But Srila Prabhupada said they had committed themselves and they can't go back now. If they weren't attracted to sex life in the first place they wouldn't have ever gotten married. The only way to stop this cycle is to become Krsna conscious. Srila Prabhupada then goes on to describe how nice it is to be Krsna conscious and how simple it is -- you can just become Krsna conscious and give up sex life. He simplifies Krsna consciousness, saying "We are satisfied with eating Krsna prasadam and chant whole day and night Hare Krsna."
Everything else is an anartha, an unwanted activity. Srila Prabhupada immediately comes up with some Bhagavatam slokas to emphasize this point. Twice, he chants the Sanskrit for the sloka from Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.7.6, then comments:
"The Bhagavata says that One should not become parent, father and mother, one should not become guru, one should not become friend, one should not become husband -- these are the guardians -- if one cannot release his dependent from this repetition of birth and death. This is civilization."
We assume Srila Prabhupada brings up this point because this phenomenon was taking place in ISKCON at the time. In hindsight, especially after Srila Prabhupada left, we can see so many people taking sannyasa and then giving it. Then regretting that they'd given up sannyasa, they want to go back to that position because it was more comfortable. Rather than just be dedicated to the principles of sannyasa, they had to take on the whole persona. As we know, the way most ISKCON sannyasis live is not at all according to the principles of sannyasa. For many, there's no austerity in ISKCON sannyasa anymore, other than not having sex.
The whole idea of not having sex is just one aspect of sannyasa. But if a sannyasi has a great deal of material power and opulent conditions, then it's not so different from having sex. Power also implies money, and a powerful, wealthy sannyasi who doesn't hanker for sex probably exhibits other symptoms that are a substitute for sex. Of course, in ISKCON we find sannyasis who fell down into sex or circumstances that can easily, rationally be considered related to sex, yet they were quickly forgiven and forgotten by their sannyasi colleagues. They didn't have to renounce sannyasa, but just continued on with the rest of their lifestyle, falling down and later being reinstated as a sannyasi. ISKCON history is rife with these examples.
Srila Prabhupada then goes back to his original theme of living locally, and brings up the example that he's trying to set in New Vrindaban. As time went on, we know that New Vrindaban turned out to be somewhat the opposite of Srila Prabhupada's vision for it, because Kirtanananda's influence became more prominent there than Srila Prabhupada's. Kirtanananda was sending everyone in vans all over the continent to collect money for New Vrindaban, which was really against the whole theme Srila Prabhupada was outlining in this talk. Few of the New Vrindaban devotees were just getting married, living very simply and staying local. Kirtanananda made it very difficult for them to do that.
Srila Prabhupada then brings up the fact that in earlier days, Bengal was like one big, beautiful garden. He said you can still see that once you get out of the city, and see how the villagers are living. In Colonial days, the British made Calcutta their capital and they were very much attached to it. Even our temple was in the British area, called Sahib Quarter.
Yogesvara mentions to Srila Prabhupada that some big factory owner has talked to him about the problems he's having with the union, and that he may even have to shut his factory down. Yogesvara wonders whether or not Krsna consciousness can solve his problem. Srila Prabhupada states:
"You give us the in charge, make us in charge of the factory, we shall do it, and see how we can deal. You can do it. We shall introduce immediately kirtana and give them prasadam. It will be solved."
The main point Srila Prabhupada is making is that you can't have the spirit of exploiting the workers. They cannot get that feeling from the owners of the factory, or nothing will work. Yogesvara says yes, if we cut down on their expenses by feeding them prasadam they'll be satisfied, and you won't have to pay them more money. Srila Prabhupada said:
"They will not take any payment. Just like under me so many Europeans and Americans work daily. I don't pay them a farthing. When they become Krsna conscious, you'll haven't got to pay anything. But you cannot take also anything. You cannot, you do not expect that "I don't have to pay anything, so it is very good profit." No, sir, you cannot take also anything. If I would have taken all the sales produced of the book selling, then you would not work. Because although it is my books, I do not take any profit or any sales proceeds, therefore you work. Similarly, these rascals, the proprietor of the factories, if they do not take anything, they will also agree not to take anything. Everything belongs to Krsna. Then the solution is there."
Here, in a nutshell, Srila Prabhupada explains the reason that he doesn't want people taking salaries in ISKCON temples, just as he never took a salary. Although he had some overhead because of his need to travel in order to give association and train, and he was producing the books, he had a relatively small staff in order to accomplish these tasks. Still, he would never take anything personally. He didn't exploit us, in other words.
Of course, this issue is a big concern nowadays in ISKCON. I can recall back in the days after Srila Prabhupada's departure how the Zonal Acaryas began to live far more opulent lifestyles than Srila Prabhupada ever had. This became very infectious, and the trickle-down effect moved through the entire Society. The Temple Presidents also began to live far more opulently than they had before. I can remember in Toronto when Bhagavan visited, he told Visvakarma that he should buy himself a new car and fix up his living quarters. All the Temple Presidents in Canada began to live far above what the temple could afford. I wasn't a Temple President at that time, but was in England running the Sankirtana. Still, it was around that point in time when I established my own personal bank account, so that if something again happened to me like it had shortly after Srila Prabhupada left, wherein I was ousted from my position in Seattle by Hansadutta, I wouldn't again be left in such a destitute situation. The Zonal Acaryas had all the money, and everyone else had nothing. And if they wanted to use their power to throw you out or to suddenly transfer you to some other area to get rid of you and take over your program assets, then there was no support system at all. Of course, if they had listened to Srila Prabhupada's instructions on staying local, these things wouldn't have happened.
Because the temple couldn't support everyone to live at the same level of comfort, if not opulence, as the newly empowered leaders, there began a great exodus out of the temples, especially of householders. They quickly tired of supporting the big leaders while getting little support themselves. Next the brahmacaries became disturbed because the system was that, by and large, they were the ones bringing home the money. They got disheartened and began leaving the temples, traveling around with the sannyasis or going to India, getting married, or whatever. They chose these things rather than continuing to financially support the temple and the opulent lifestyles of the leaders.
So using Srila Prabhupada's example in this morning walk, we can see that the leaders today in ISKCON are allowing salaries to be paid to cooks, pujaris and other staff because they won't live up to Srila Prabhupada's simple standard of not taking anything themselves. It's a well known fact and an undisputed reality that they have lots of money and they don't want to give it up.
The principle that Srila Prabhupada gives is that Krsna is the provider. But in the case of ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada is the proprietor as a via medium to Krsna. That is, all the money that goes through ISKCON or through the hands of anyone considering themselves to be in ISKCON, regardless of whether they're a diksa guru, GBC or sannyasi, it's all Srila Prabhupada's money. Would Srila Prabhupada want his money to be spent in the way that they're spending it? In the current news we see that many of the GBC flew to a very nice vacation spot in Italy to have a meeting to talk about problems like this one. One of our local GBC's, Bhakti Marg Swami, flew over to attend. When he was here at Vancouver for the Ratha Yatra we presented him with some of the local problems, but he said that he didn't think he should be a GBC, he didn't want to be a GBC, and he felt that the principle should be that sannyasis and gurus shouldn't be GBC. Unfortunately, he didn't choose to wait for 2 or 3 days after Ratha Yatra for Janmastami, but instead went off walking along the highways. Keep in mind that Bhakti Marg Swami hardly spends any time here at all. He has the power to solve problems - and Vancouver has many -- yet he refuses to do so, apparently based on this principle that he doesn't think he should be a GBC, and doesn't want to be a GBC. But we see that he's only too willing to take a vacation in Italy to attend a GBC meeting as our Canadian GBC representative. This appears to be a variation on the theme of how ISKCON leaders today deploy Srila Prabhupada's assets.
Srila Prabhupada ends the morning walk by saying "Yes. They become devotee, they will give to Krsna. You also become devotees. Not that they become devotee and you exploit them very nicely. That is not."
