"Sadaputa Prabhu's presentation of Krishna Consciousness is absolutely essential, as the vast majority of people who we need to preach to, the western modern educated classes, will need the interesting answers he gives. As he draws on examples from scientific circles and parallels them with Vedic knowledge, to convince them of taking consciousness and Krishna Consciousness seriously, this is real bridge preaching.
His well defined arguments and understanding of the history of scientific thinking, which is of course predominantly Darwinian in nature, gives full analysis and from all disciplines of science, including cosmological affairs, brings forth very relevant arguments. For instance, explanations of different dimensions that he speaks of are also spoken of and accepted and pondered over deeply by people like Harvard Professor, Lisa Randal".
After nearly fifty years since Srila Prabhupada's initial instruction to 'carefully study the details of the fifth canto and make a working model of the universe', most members of ISKCON are unfortunately no closer to understanding that 'the Earth' is a gigantic circular plane (as the Puranas describe), and not a globe-shaped planet floating in space (as Western cosmology describes). The reason why members of the society are not conscious of, or convinced of the actual reality of the Vedic Earth-circle, is largely due to the presentation of 'Vedic cosmology' that began with Sadaputa dasa and later with Danavir Goswami.
We wish to stress once again that our disagreement with Sadaputa dasa, Danavir Goswami, and other members of ISKCON is on points of Vedic cosmology, and is certainly not intended as a personal criticism of any devotee of Sri Krishna. Throughout our papers we have focused on the presentations of Vedic cosmology made by Danavir Goswami and Sadaputa dasa as it was the initial research by these two members of ISKCON that set the scene for ISKCON's current understanding and presentation of the Vedic cosmos. Since the current presentation suffers from fundamental mistakes that have yet to be addressed—mistakes that are unfortunately to soon be presented via the TOVP—it is necessary to point out where the initial mistakes have been made, as well as how to rectify them with reference to the original description of the Earth given in Srimad Bhagavatam. In pointing out certain mistakes made in their understanding and presentation of Vedic cosmology, we do not wish to discredit the above devotees of Sri Krishna, who are to be otherwise thanked and appreciated for their sincere efforts to serve Srila Prabhupada's mission.
Sadaputa dasa was one of the original devotees delegated by Srila Prabhupada to study the details of the Srimad Bhagavatam'sfifth canto, and make a working model of the Vedic universe. Unfortunately, Sadaputa dasa not only kept members of the society believing that the Western understanding of the Earth is correct, he also negated the original Vedic description of the Earth in the process. Let's look, for example, at the Vedic Earth (Bhu-mandala), which according to Sadaputa dasa is not actually the Earth, but is really the solar system:
Sadaputa dasa: In terms of present scientific understanding, Bhu-mandala really corresponds to the solar system in terms of size… another interesting feature is that the solar system is flat, all the planetary orbits line up basically in a plane, so that's where Bhu-mandala essentially is. (from a lecture by Sadaputa dasa/Richard Thompson, Size and Position of Bhu-mandala (Solar System) posted on Youtube by Nettan Von Pavarga, 23.53 to 24.28 minutes)
In an interesting admission, Sadaputa dasa unquestionably accepts the modern idea that the planets line up in an 'orbital plane'. In our previous papers on "The Vedic Flat-Earth, Rahu, and the Eclipse", we discussed the difference between the Vedic and Western understanding of the arrangement of the planets. In the Vedic cosmological system, the planets are vertically arranged above the massive plane of the Earth-circle as shown in the image below:
In the Western system the planets are horizontally arranged around a massive Sun as shown in the image below:
But how can the solar system be 'flat' as Sadaputa dasa presents, when according to chapter 22 of Srimad Bhagavatam's fifth canto, the Sun is above the Earth, and the Moon is above the Sun, etc.? All the Vedic planets are described as being vertically arranged 'one above the other'; they do not form a flat 'orbital plane' as the Western cosmology describes. According to Srimad Bhagavatam, it is the Earth (Bhu-mandala) that forms a 'flat plane' and the other planets rotate 'above' this massive Earth plane at their respective heights. It is not that the Earth ever takes the form of a small globe, and that the other planets orbit 'around' this 'Earth planet' to form a flat orbital plane.
Instead of working from the Srimad Bhagavatam's description of the Earth being a flat circular plane with the planets rotating above it, Sadaputa dasa worked from the Western premise that the Earth is a globe and part of an 'orbital plane'. Working from this false premise, Sadaputa dasa unfortunately discredited the Srimad Bhagavatam's original flat-Earth concept:
"Here's another way to look at Bhu-mandala that also shows that it's not a flat-Earth model. Descriptions of Bhu-mandala have features that identify it as a model of the solar system. In the previous section I interpreted Bhu-mandala as a planisphere map. But now, we'll take it as a literal plane. When we do this, it looks at first like we're back to the naive flat Earth, with the bowl of the sky above and the underworld below.
The scholars Giorgio de Santillana and Hertha von Dechend carried out an intensive study of myths and traditions and concluded that the so-called flat Earth of ancient times originally represented the plane of the ecliptic (the orbit of the sun) and not the Earth on which we stand. Later on, according to de Santillana and von Dechend, the original cosmic understanding of the earth was apparently lost, and the Earth beneath our feet was taken literally as a flat plate. In India, the earth of the Puranas has often been taken as literally flat. But the details given in the Bhagavatam show that its cosmology is much more sophisticated.
Not only does the Bhagavatam use the ecliptic model, but it turns out that the disk of Bhu-mandala corresponds in some detail to the solar system (Figure 8). The solar system is nearly flat. The sun, the moon, and the five traditionally known planets—Mercury through Saturn—all orbit nearly in the ecliptic plane. Thus Bhu-mandala does refer to something flat, but it's not the Earth.
One striking feature of the Bhagavatam's descriptions has to do with size. If we compare Bhu-mandala with the Earth, the solar system out to Saturn, and the Milky Way galaxy, Bhu-mandala matches the solar system closely, while radically differing in size from Earth and the galaxy.
Furthermore, the structures of Bhu-mandala correspond with the planetary orbits of the solar system (Figure 9). If we compare the rings of Bhu-mandala with the orbits of Mercury, Venus (Figure 10), Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn, we find several close alignments that give weight to the hypothesis that Bhu-mandala was deliberately designed as a map of the solar system. (Sadaputa dasa, the Universe of the Vedas, Back to Godhead Magazine, 34-06, 2,000)
In the above passage it is quite clear that Sadaputa dasa falls hook, line, and sinker for the Western idea that the planets form a flat orbital plane. But how can the planets form a flat solar system, when Srimad Bhagavatam describes the Sun to be 100,000 yojana (800,000 miles) above the Earth-circle, and the rest of the planets to be vertically arranged above the Sun? Instead of simply accepting that the Bhu-mandala is a flat Earth, Sadaputa dasa argued instead that the description of the Bhu-mandala is really a description of the flat plane of the solar system. However, according to Srimad Bhagavatam 'the solar system' doesn't even exist, since the planets are otherwise described as being vertically arranged above the level of the massive Earth plane, not horizontally arranged around a massive central sun.
The image below shows Sadaputa dasa's depiction of Jambudvipa surrounded by the salt-water ocean, and the other islands and oceans of Bhu-mandala. Since Bharata-varsha is located at 'ground level' in Jambudvipa, how can Sadaputa dasa argue that the Sun, Moon, and other planets orbit around Bharata-varsha, when Bharata-varsha is not even described as a separate planet floating in space, but rather as one part (varsha) of a larger Earth circle.
Bharata-varsha is described as being surrounded by other lands and oceans belonging to the greater Earth plane, and is not otherwise described as being an independent planet surrounded by dark space (as globe iconography depicts). The idea prevalent in ISKCON that Bharata-varsha manifests as an Earth-globe floating in dark space, and that the Sun, Moon, and other planets orbit around Bharata-varsha, unfortunately results in the other islands and oceans of Bhu-mandala becoming effectively 'vaporized', and no longer existing in any practical sense except as an abstract idea that belongs to some nebulous aspect of 'Vedic cosmology'. Despite presenting and discussing images such as the one of Jambudvipa above (showing Bharata-varsha's location on the larger Earth plane), most members of ISKCON nonetheless unquestionably accept NASA's image of the Earth globe floating in dark space as the 'real' form of the Earth.
The acceptance of the Earth-globe as the 'reality' makes it impossible to understand the reality of Sukadeva Goswami's description of Bharata-varsha's location in Jambudvipa. The Srimad Bhagavatam's description is treated as not 'really real', or at best, most likely referring to something else. Instead of working consistently with the Srimad Bhagavatam's description of the Earth-circle, Sadaputa dasa, Danavir Goswami, etc., simply flick back and forth from Vedic to Western ideas of the Earth and other planets as if both systems are perfectly compatible with each other, when in fact the acceptance of one system necessarily implies the rejection or destruction of the other.
The reason why members of the International Society for Krishna consciousness are not openly discussing and preaching about the greater Earth plane as described in the fifth canto is because the correct understanding of the Vedic Earth-circle has been 'lost in translation.' Those charged by Srila Prabhupada with researching and presenting the Vedic cosmology have effectively 'disappeared' the Vedic Earth. In the above statement, Sadaputa dasa, for example, has argued away the existence of the Bhu-mandala by claiming that the description of the Earth is actually the description of the Western solar system. Since most of the members of ISKCON follow Sadaputa dasa's explanation, is it any wonder that after nearly 50 years since the publication of the fifth canto, hardly any members of the society are able to discuss or preach on the idea that we live on an Earth circle, not an Earth globe.
They say that this world is unreal, with no foundation, no God in control. (Bg 16.8)
I raise this verse not to accuse Sadaputa dasa of propagating the ideology of the asuras, but simply to warn the devotees of Sri Krishna that we should not think of the Bhu-mandala as something unreal. To say that the Bhu-mandala 'is' the solar system, is effectively to say that only the solar system exists—which essentially declares that the Bhu-mandala doesn't exist, or that it is otherwise 'unreal'. However, the description of the Bhu-mandala is a literal description of a larger Earth, not a symbolic description of something else. The Bhu-mandala is the largest feature in the Vedic universe, and the Puranas declare that all life in the universe is dependent (for one reason or another) on the great Earth-circle. In the Vayu Purana, the personified Earth says:
"O Most excellent of all kings, but for me the subjects will be ruined. O king, all the worlds rest in me. The whole universe is sustained by Me". (Vayu Purana, part 2, chapter 1, verse 154)
Again:
"The Earth, sustained upon the head of this sovereign serpent [Ananta-sesha], supports in its turn, the garland of the spheres, along with (their inhabitants,) men, demons, and gods." (Vishnu Purana, Book 2, chapter 5)
The reality and importance of Bhu-mandala should not be undermined by mistakenly thinking that the description of Bhu-mandala in Srimad Bhagavatam is really referring to something else (i.e. the solar system). The various locations on the surface and interior of the Earth (Bhu-mandala) are described in chapters 16-20 and chapters 24-26 of the fifth canto. The planets, by contrast, are described separately in chapters 21 and 22 of the fifth canto. The description of the Earth, and the description of the planets, are descriptions of two different places; they cannot be simply merged as if they are a description of one thing—namely the so-called solar system.
If I have a description of a bird and an elephant, the difference in description informs me of the existence of two different creatures with different features, characteristics, etc. But if someone argues that the description of the bird is actually the description of an elephant, the person is effectively saying that the bird and the elephant are the same thing, and not two different things. In a similar way, to say that the Bhu-mandala 'is' the solar system is to claim that there is no separate Bhu-mandala. The Earth globe ideology effectively covers any notion that there is more Earth as described in Srimad Bhagavatam.
It is really quite astonishing how Sadaputa dasa managed to equate Bhu-mandala with the solar system, considering that the Srimad Bhagavatam describes Bhu-mandala (Earth circle) as literally that—a circular Earth, whilst the planets are described as something entirely different, namely planets, (not the Earth). To say that the solar system is the Earth circle is clearly a mistake in reasoning. If a 'scientist' can be regarded as a person bearing a type of faith or world-view like a Hindu, Muslim, or Christian, Sadaputa dasa clearly presented the 'scientific' world-view of the universe in contradiction to the original Vedic cosmological idea presented in Srimad Bhagavatam. By arguing in favour of the Western understanding of the planetary arrangement, Sadaputa dasa did not actually build a bridge between the ancient Vedic world-view and the modern scientific world-view; rather, he failed to build the bridge that can take others to the transcendental side of the Vedic world-view, and effectively left everyone stranded on the side of the modern scientific world-view.
As mentioned, the planets in the Vedic system are situated in a vertical arrangement one above, and thus do not in an way conform to the modern Western system which has them circling each other on an orbital plane. Not only does Sadaputa dasa accept the modern Western idea that the planets form an orbital plane (an idea completely contradictory to Srimad Bhagavatam), he also conflates this idea of the solar system with the Bhu-mandala itself—effectively 'disappearing' Bhu-mandala in the process. The whole idea is such a travesty, it simply beggars belief that other devotees cannot see the mistake in reasoning, but simply blindly follow this completely irrational conflation of two wholly different categories.
As an example of blind following we can look at the presentation by Radha-Mohan dasa from the Bhaktivedanta Manor community who has several videos on Youtube promoting so-called 'Vedic cosmology'. Radha-Mohan dasa's only distinction in presenting various arguments for the Earth globe, is to loyally follow every mistake made by his two predecessors, namely Sadaputa das and Danavir Goswami. For example, in the video called The Solar System in Vedic Astronomy, Radha-mohan dasa (again in wanton defiance of the Srimad Bhagavatam's description that the planets are vertically arranged one above the other) repeats the same assumption made by Sadaputa dasa that the planets form a flat orbital plane:
Radha-Mohan dasa: "So Sadaputa dasa draws parallels between Bhu-mandala…the plane of Bhu-mandala, and the solar system…Now interesting enough both are flat discs in space with very similar dimensions".
Below is Radha-Mohan's image presenting Bhu-mandala as the solar system.
Let us all be aware of the following points: (1) The Puranas do not describe 'a solar system' as in the above depiction which shows the planets arranged in a flat orbital plane. (2) The Vedic planets do not form a flat or horizontal arrangement in space, but are rather stacked in a vertical arrangement one above the other; that is they rotate 'above' the Earth-circle (Bhu-mandala), not 'around' the Earth globe as depicted in Radha-Mohan's illustration of the solar system. (3) Since the planets are vertically arranged above the Earth-circle, they are not to be equated with the Earth-circle itself which is the horizontal plane above which the planets rotate. To put it simply, the Earth-circle is where 'Earthlings' live, and the planets are where the devas live. The Earth-circle and the planets are two completely different categories that cannot be conflated or merged into a single identity. If the Bhu-mandala is actually the solar system then the 'Earthlings' would be described as living on planets (grahas), not islands (dvipas) as Sukadeva Goswami describes. Radha-Mohan dasa's presentation is so ridiculous it hardly deserves any expenditure of time to refute it, but since 'the ridiculous' is the direction in which the whole society is proceeding in its understanding of the 'Vedic cosmos, one is obliged to at least squawk something in response.
Radha-Mohan dasa has been on our Vedic cosmology mailing list for several years, and despite having personally pointed out the above mistakes in his understanding of Bhu-mandala, along with the numerous other mistakes in regards to his many spurious arguments for the existence of an Earth globe, he is unfortunately intent on blindly following his perceived authorities, and (along with other members of the society) is recklessly and unwisely propagating a huge misinformation campaign in in the name of so-called Vedic cosmology.
Yet again we see a clear example of how members of ISKCON simply manoeuvre in and out of two completely different conceptions of how the planets are arranged and work. Although the image of Bhu-mandala is presented as the centerpiece of the 'Vedic cosmology', the concept of Bhu-mandala serves as really nothing more than a façade. Bhu-mandala is clearly presented as a façade, since all explanations for how the universe works are based entirely on the Western conception of the Earth being an Earth globe, and part of the so-called orbital plane of the solar system.
We can see the same thing in the work of Danavir Goswami. In the Vedic Cosmos documentary by Danavir Goswami, the Bhu-mandala is initially presented with the planets rotating above at respective heights as shown in the image below:
Then as the video progresses, the Bhu-mandala 'mysteriously' disappears, and the planets are no longer depicted as rotating above the Earth-circle at respective heights (as Srimad Bhagavatam describes), but rather as forming an orbital plane around a small Earth globe as the Western cosmology describes. The image below shows Danavir Goswami's depiction of the planets now orbiting 'around' an Earth globe instead of rotating 'above' the Earth circle.
The above image is not very clear, and can be better seen in the following video link beginning at 16.30 minutes:
Thus a switch has been made from the Srimad Bhagavatam's description of the planets forming a vertical arrangement above the plane of the Earth-circle, to the Western system of the planets forming a horizontal arrangement or 'orbital plane' around an Earth-globe. The only difference with the Western idea of the planetary arrangement is that instead of the so-called Earth-globe going around the Sun, members of ISKCON have presented the idea that the Sun goes around the so-called Earth-globe. However both ideas contradict the Srimad Bhagavatam's description that the Earth is a massive circular plane, (not an Earth-globe), and that the Sun rotates 'above' the Earth-circle, (not 'around' an Earth-globe). If the Earth-globe supposedly represents Bharata-varsha, how can the Sun and other planets be said to be orbiting around Bharata-varsha when Bharata-varsha is 'ground level' (being situated on the Bhu-mandala), and the planets are otherwise described as being hundreds of thousands of miles above the ground level. Moreover, if the Sun, Moon, and other planets are said to be orbiting around Bharata-varsha, what happens to the other islands and oceans of Bhu-mandala that are surrounding Bharata-varsha? In the above depiction, the planets are incorrectly placed where the islands and oceans of Bhu-mandala should be; and the seven great islands and seven great oceans of Bhu-mandala have mysteriously vaporized in the process.
As stated previously, the bridge (fifth canto) that was to take Sri Krishna's devotees to the side of the Vedic world-view has yet to be built, and most members of the International Society for Krishna Consciousnesses remain stranded on the side of the scientific world-view.
