879707840 message Rocana 879707786 Say ChrisL 879707755 Say Madhusudani 879707698 Say Madhusudani 879707655 Say Jagadananda 879707563 Say Jagadananda 879707537 Say Rocana
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879706217 Say Vaisnava 879706209 Say Bahudak 879706200 Say Madhusudani 879706163 Say Puranjana 879706145 Say Jagadananda 879706126 message Madhava 879706029 Say Jagadananda 879706021 Say Vaisnava 879705993 Say Rocana
879705925 Say ChrisL 879705894 Say Jagadananda 879705886 Say Vaisnava 879705842 Say Madhusudani 879705759 Say Vaisnava 879705706 Say Rocana
879705586 Say Madhusudani 879705584 Say Puranjana 879705554 Say Bahudak 879705533 Say Rocana
879705350 Say Vaisnava 879705320 Say Madhusudani 879705305 Say ChrisL 879705257 Say Puranjana 879705256 Say Puranjana 879705200 Say Rocana
879705155 Say Puranjana 879705087 Say Vaisnava 879705077 message Bahudak 879705062 Say Rocana
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879704800 Say Jagadananda 879704788 Say ChrisL 879704707 message Gurudas 879704696 Say Rocana
879704655 Say Puranjana 879704634 Say Madhusudani 879704528 Say Puranjana 879704511 Say Rocana
879704481 Say Vaisnava 879704410 Say Rocana
879704343 Say Madhusudani 879704341 message Vijnana 879704338 Say Rocana
879704289 Say ChrisL 879704244 Say Rocana
879704213 Say Puranjana 879704164 Say Jagadananda 879704163 Say Rocana
879704105 Say Madhusudani 879704058 Say Puranjana 879704001 Say Jagadananda 879703992 Say ChrisL 879703977 Say Rocana Did Abhirama dasa have any medical qualifications other than being Tamal Krsna s buddy? If he wasn't highly qualified, what was he doing in the role of Srila Prabhupada's nurse, who required highly skilled care?
879703971 Say Madhusudani 879703927 Say Puranjana 879703922 Say Rocana
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879703875 message Margaret 879703875 message Margaret 879703836 Say Rocana
879703754 Say ChrisL 879703663 Say Vaisnava 879703608 Say Madhusudani 879703582 Say Rocana If you listen to the sound file posted on the VNN page with very sensitive headphones you will hear that this is actually what is said." Please note that many other devotees have listened to this same audio clip, and they DO hear the word poison.
879703573 Say ChrisL 879703565 Say Jagadananda 879703507 Say Vaisnava 879703469 message ChrisL 879703464 Say Madhusudani 879703452 message Daruka dasa 879703451 message Jagadananda 879703432 Say Vaisnava 879703417 Say Dono 879703410 message Tulasi dasi 879703405 message Madhusudani 879703400 Say Puranjana 879703371 message Rocana 879703334 message Vaisnava 879703298 Say Rocana Puranjana dasa,
what news can you tell us? Thank you very much for all your dedicated work on these matters.
879703228 Say Tulasi dasi 879703219 message Rocana 879703208 message Puranjana 879702890 message Tulasi dasi 879702859 Logoff Dono 879702859 message Dono 879702757 message Dono 879702683 Say Dono 879702441 message Dono 879702441 message Dono 879702067 message Tulasi 879701588 message Daruka dasa 879701588 message Daruka dasa 879700436 Say Bahudak 879699919 Say Bahudak 879699835 message Bahudak [snipped several log on/log off's with no postings]
879670220 message Jimmy 879670078 Say Jimmy 879669985 message Jimmy 879668308 Say Ananda das
LOG ON: Ananda das
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Our CGI scripting is such that the dialogue unfolds in this way.
LOG OFF: Rocana
What about 10 months of arsenic being givin as stated on VNN. isn't this one of the oldest devices known?
Looks like Rocana is trying to wrap things up. Thanks for the opportunity to "chat". Haribol. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
I agree with Jagadananda and Bahudak. Given Prabhupada's age and the possibility of sub-optimal treatment (e.g. giving Prabhupada sugar in spite of his diabetes, and possibly giving him ayurvedic medicines that contained mercury), it seems to have been negligence at worst that led to his passing at that particular time.
Puranjana. Who exactly is this secretary who poisoned Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and how do you know this? What proof do you have?
Rocana asked about Prabhupada's desire to do Govardhana parkrama. Back in 1977, I felt that such a trip was Prabhupada's swan song. That he wanted to go out in style, so to speak. The caregivers who blocked this desire of his did so in order to try to keep him alive.
Thanks to all for being here. We will cull the transcript from today, and attempt to present, in logical format, all the questions, rebuttals, etc., that have been raised. We hope you will all read that summarization, and add your further comments in Dharma Mela. It's interesting to not that irregardless of how irrelevant it may seem to some, this topic has attracted many interested participants. We are all so neophyte that we are attracted to sensational events instead of pure philosophy. Be that as it may, we have a responsibility to sift the wheat from the chaff. Hare Krsna.
Puranjan dasa says: This is why we have to connect the dots to the false appointment and the poisoning. Just like, what is the motive of the butler to poison the master and change his final will? Well, you get the master's empire. And that is what happened. So we have to look at what would be the motive. For example, in the Gaudiya Matha a motivated secretary poisoned his guru. Why? He then declared that he was the successor guru. So, from history we can see the paralells. As for the Rohini Sutas, they then go to the splicer and poisoner sector for a guru franchise certificate, etc. This also occured in the 40's in India, the first wave of deviants empowered a second wave of deviants --as guru. They hasd the original poisoner crew, and those voted in by those deviants.. history repeats..?
I cast my vote for Bahudak's last statement. There is sufficient cause to believe that the various ineffective treatments and their side effects led Prabhupada to say that they were poisonous for him.
I thought Prabhupada was saying it was the wrong vedis medicine that he took which was poisoning him...?
i listen to Paranjana, we have a mutual friend who was drummed out of IWR along with her husband for telling devotees what was really going on in an official ISKCON publication.
Puranjana, Jayapataka Maharaja is my guru because I asked him and he agreed. Everything else is irrelevant in our tradition.
Puranjana, how are your 60,000 (!) Hindus to be accepted as authorities? A rabble rouser's roused rabble is only proof that he is a good rabble rouser.
I agree with Bahudak. Why have a such a lenient set of standards for the accusers? The motive is weak at best, and the evidence is very shaky. I still can't even hear the word poison on the tape. Even if I assume it's there, the sentence makes no sense.
In closing this Sadhu Sanga, I suggest that we carry this discussion forward to the Dharma Mela board. There's a great deal more to be said on all these subjects. We will look forward to the professional analysis of the new tapes, and to the unfolding of questions and answers that are to come. We will be asking Isa dasa if he and his associate investigators will participate here with us in future at a specified time, so we can ask futher specific questions about the legacy material on these tapes.
Puranjana dasa to Madhusdani, the issue whether Srila Prabhupada was poisoned, whether or not his tapes were spliced are everyone's issues. Since the GBC suspended Jayapataka for not chanting his rounds, and since he was made guru by a spliced tape, how can we then say he has disciples? He lied that he had been appointed, and some of his colleagues are now being connected to the potential murder of Srila Prabhupada. The Hindus who hear that tape already think this is a foregone conclusion. So, why is JPS lying still to me in a recent letter he sent, that Srila PRabhupada named some gurus? Prabhupada never named anyone as his guru successor, and not only that it now appears there was a sinister plot to make this successor guru idea fly by foul play.... So when is JPS going to understnad that he has no disiples because he lied that he was appointed and his clique is suspect of murder of their guru?
LOG ON: Tirtha
For what it's worth (probably nothing if you're interested in gossip), I too was in LA and saw Rohini Suta. He behaved like a perfect gentleman the entire time I was there and was surrounded only by male disciples and god-nephews as his servants. He and I had an almost 3 hour discussion. But it took place on the porch of "his" house, in plain view of everyone. He was very proper.
as a teenager at Laguna Temple, i heard in 71-72 that Srila Prabhupada had diabetes. it may have been Vishnujana Swami who told me.
Srila Prabhupada began to look very ill about a year before his departure. The illness progressed till the point of departure. Did the "poisoning" begin a year before his death? Was Tamal Prabhupada's servant for a year before his departure? If not is it conceivable that there was a large number of conspirators working together to administer poison? Were the doctors in cahoots? If Prabhupada really felt he was being poisoned would he not have clearly stated this in English? Did Prabhupada not trust any of is Enlish speaking devotees ? I think we should apply a little harder logic to these suspicions and they become less likely.
Okay, the HTML code's going a bit crazy. Please bear with it.
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Vaisnava dasa wrote: "I see, I thought you were referring to the care Prabhupada was given. It appears that he was given the best care that he wanted. If he wanted a doctor, he was given, or if he didn't he wasn't. All was under Prabhupada's total control, so he was given the best care." What information do you have in hand that tells you Srila Prabhupada was being given the best care that he wanted? These references would be important to specify and point out at this stage. Everyone had the impression that Srila Prabhupada was totally in control, but I don't just accept that. For instance, Srila Prabhupada asked to be taken on parikama near His last days, but his request was refused. Why? And, Srila Prabhupada asked that all his devotees come to Vrindaban to be with him while he went into samadhi, and THAT request was denied. Why?
Puranjana dasa to Madhusudhani, Well prabhu you are right, we were misinformed about Rohini Suta, we did not say originally that he was getting massages by women. Just after we reported the original complaint an eye-witness saw him with a woman touching him for massage right here in LA. So, some of our stuff is wrong, and sometimes it is worse that we originally thought. Example, we never said anything about a pontential plot to kill our guru, now hoever, the facts are coming in differently
Puranjana, why bother disciples with these issues unless they express an interest? You put him or her in a very awkward position. Why don't you deal directly with your godbrothers and godsisters instead? If they don't want to listen to you, that's their right. It doesn't mean that you go through their disciples instead.
Rocana, no we're not in disagreement. I just wanted to clarify the topic of discussion.
Puranjana dasa says, Just now we tried to give a poison analysis to one of Jayapataka's followers and he told me this is mundane "politics." So, I'd like to know if anyone thinks we should take them up on this and write to say, the Governor of Missipi and make this a political issue? I don't get it, Srila Prabhupada's complaint is, according to the teachings of JPS is "politics." So, I think the GBC should talk to us about these issues, or it will go into the political realm very shortly. I am supposed to talk to a person running for Mayor of a big city very soon by the arrangement of some hindus. So, we wanted to make this an internal talk all along, they inisist we take it to the duck and pheasant club. So, we'll do that, but just wanted you to know they are ordering us to do that. And if this goes outside then we just wanted you to know that is not out idea.
Jagadananda dasa, I think Chris was referring to the fact that the institutional authorities removed from their service anyone who didn't buy the party line, and criticized the leaders. The four people who were in the room were not vocal public detractors of the "management". I don't understand your point?
Puranjana, I think it's good that you bring issues to the forefront and forces everyone to look at them. However, you'd have much more credibility if you posed them as interesting, but unsubstantiated rumors, instead of immediately adding them to your refrain. I know for a fact that several things you've written recently about Rohini Suta and Jayapataka Maharaja are simply false. Yet, you post them without even admitting that possibility. That makes me doubt other things you're writing too and I know many others who feel the same way. You'd be much more effective if you were more selective and if you didn't endorse every report you get, without checking the facts.
Madhusudani: I see, I thought you were referring to the care Prabhupada was given. It appears that he was given the best care that he wanted. If he wanted a doctor, he was given, or if he didn't he wasn't. All was under Prabhupada's total control, so he was given the best care. To Bahudak: I don't know about exhuming. To me, that question should be left up to the devotees and professional investigators if they by expert advise think it warrants. I do think that any sanga where open communications are encouraged, is very valuable. So long folks. Thanks for the chat. I hope I committed no offenses.
TIMEOUT: Vijnana
Madhusudani dasi wrote: "I think that there is a difference between suboptimal care and poisoning." Just to clarify, I think that discussing all peripheral issues is appropriate to what is the core issue here -- allegations of poisoning. I think it's early in the process to begin tightening the boundaries of "appropriate" discussion of this core issue. We need to examine all the correspondent issues that are of concern to all of us. As to the issue of quality of care: it depends on whether or not the persons administering "sub-optimal care", such as giving a diabetic sugar, knew of the ramifications of what they were doing. For a diabetic, sugar becomes poison. Therefore, it seems we need to look at all aspects. We're probably not really in disagreement on this point.
Last thought: Why is it that we are lacking source material? The Appointment tape controversy, and now this. The BBT should have had all the tapes recorded in this period, the letters. Why have all these source materials been kept away from the world for so long? It makes it appear to be conspiracy -- conspicuous by its absence.
Vaisnava I am saying that we are talking without any substantial evidence and therefore it is speculation without any realistic hope of reaching conclusion. It occurred to me years ago that Prabhupada may have been poisoned and it is a sickening thought. However, the only way to establish that he was would be to pressure authorities to exhume his transcendental body. Do you want to do this?Do you want to be responsible for this? And supposing that this was done and evidence of poisoning was found would it be possible to prove who did it? We all know who we think may have done it. if it was done, but proving it is another matter.
Vaisnava, I was simply rephrasing what Rocanca wrote questioning the qualifications of the medical and nursing caregivers. I have absolutely no way of knowing if Prabhupada's care was excellent or poor. My text simply referred to the fact that those are two different (although as Rocana said, possibly inter-related) issues and I posed the quesion about if they should be discussed together.
Puranjana to Bahudaka prabhu, Jagananda says no one beleives me, well 60,000 hindus do? Are they no one? Anyway: The facts are that Prabhupadasaid he was being poisoned on November 8th. Have you heard that tape? We've played it to about 60,000 hindus and they agree that there was a complaint of poisoning. Let me know if you have not heard it, we can send it to you by mail. As far as the conspiracy theory goes, it is a fact that the same guys who were in charge of the medicine and food, arethe guys who spliced up the appointment tape, and are the same guys who declared molesters are gurus, and are the same guys who re-instated a molester, and are the same guys who tried to orchestrate my murder and did orchestrate Sulocana and other murders, and what can I say, it is the same small circle or clique that is always connected to these things. No theory needed here, this is a fact. History will bear this out. Similarly, there were a few motivated fools in the Gaudiya Matha, and that clique is well known by Srila Prabhupada CONSTANT reminders to us.....
Chris said, they removed anyone who spoke out. The four people who were in the room are all still around. Are we to assume that they are all members of the conspiracy to murder Prabhupada?
LOG ON: Madhava
Puranjana. Everyone knows that you think the worst of everyone. You are like the boy who cried wolf. Because you think a priori that everything bad about the gurus is true, therefore no one can believe a word you say.
Madhusudani, I think the question is not of the quality of care. Actually, it appears that Tamala gave Srila Prabhupada excellent care, wonderful care. That should be admitted. It was a question of why Prabhupada said he was being poisoned and surrounding issues.
Bahudak dasa, you say, " I am not so sure that this conversation has any real merit. We may speculate but there is a great lack of evidence." It seems to me that the actual merit of this discussion is that we are, slowly, defining what the questions are that need to be put forward in order that we might actually identify the evidence. If we don't talk about it, we'll likely never arrive at the proper questions that need to be asked. If we don't ask the proper questions, we'll never be offered answers. If we don't have answers to examine, and compare to other existing information, we cannot identify discrepancies. So, I think this conversation....even though sometime speculative...has plenty of merit. Also, it's not simply speculation, but hypothesis. After all, there is an investigation going on. Every investigator has to do some speculating as part of the process of going after the facts.
How could this go on for 20 yrs? EASY! they removed anyone who spoke out! they would lie about sincere devotees, saying they had been led astray and not to have any dealings with them. i know of a few instances when temple presidents resorted to beatings and terror. and you think calling in the Gaudya- Math could clear things up? it was already done in the past and gave us too many conflicting stories.
I agree with Bahudak.
Got to run shortly folks, been nice chatting with y'all. Haribol!
Rocana, I'm sorry that I didn't express myself more clearly. I don't mean that Prabhupada's care was unimportant. Rather, I think that there is a difference between suboptimal care and poisoning. That's a similar difference between child neglect and child abuse. I thought we were discussing the possibility of poisoning here, but I have no problem with broadening the discussion if you think that would be helpful.
Bahudak, you mean to say that attempting to get down to the bottom of a possible poisoning of your guru has no merit? If so, I can't understand this. I can't understand why we can't let any facts come out that may have been swept under the rug.
POINT: This is first time I've heard that Srila Prabhupada actually had diabetes. What was this information not shared with the devotees? In fact, why wasn't there a continuous sharing of pertinent reports on His health being made available to all of us? Control of vital information has always been the modus operandi of Tamal Krsna Goswami and his exclusive circle of insiders.
Chris, if you have concrete insider info from that time, then let's use it constructively. We all have different strengths and experiences. Let's use them collaboratively and productively. So I hear you saying that some of the men in charge back then sometimes spoke "pidgin English". That doesn't surprise me. I have heard that too in many places over the years (it's actually something that really bugs me, but that's another discussion). Now, can you give us any information, based on your experience, why that speech pattern would be related to *careless* and *self-incriminating* speech?
Puranjana to Jagadananda prabhu, The fact that they were able to cover it up for 20 years does not make them innocent. I think that is the point. They used very clever tactics, just like smash and grab burglars do all over the world. Even if they were never "caught" they performed horrible misdeed, killing the devotees even to suppress the investigation. The only reason we caught them is that we did not care if they got us assassinated. Not a lot of devotees wanted to take that risk, hence, the apparently long time gap to now catch up to an even more sinister development: the probable assassination of Prabhupada himself. I now say that I feel good, not proud mind you, but I an in the same category as Srila Prabhupada in that they wanted to get him out and they want to get me out. Thus, every dog has his day.
I am not so sure that this conversation has any real merit. We may speculate but there is a great lack of evidence. The ultimate conclusion of this line of reasoning would be to press for the exhuming of Srila Prabhupada's body? Do we want to do this. Also , why are we connecting the poisoning issue with the appointment tape issue. Is it possible we are getting lost in conspiracy mentality?
Madhusudani says: "....Prabhupada had some very definite opinions about his care and treatment and that he was not easy to defy. Could they have insisted on better doctors or caregivers? Possibly, but that really isn't the topic at hand now, is it?" Yes, I think this is part of the topic at hand now. In fact, the only reason that we're getting some straight forward details now is because some professionals, such as Mirgendra dasa and Balvanta dasa can't risk doing anything but an excellent, complete job. So the same thing would apply to a properly certified professional medical attendant. And at the least, by asking these questions we begin the process of ascertaining what Srila Prabhupada actually had to say on these matters, all along. Did he defy the devotees requests that he accept better care? If so, where are the archival transcripts of these critical pieces of dialoague. He was willing to go to a hospital in England, and he himself called in old friends who were Auyervedic doctors, so it's not that he was against having professionals take care of him.
I think it is important to keep in the forefront to leave politics out of this and simply try to determine the whys of various essential issues, like: Where are the tapes for this period and why have they been edited? Jagad questions why these so-called 'dumb' crooks fooled everyone for 20 years? Well, we never had access to any of Prabhupada's source material like tapes, letters, etc.
Puranjana, I completely agree that mistakes and wrongs have been made in ISKCON. However, it's a huge difference between editing an appointment tape and murdering your guru. I don't think you can draw the conclusion that one who is capable of the former also is capable of murder.
i too agree that we need to collect as much data as possible, then sift thru it looking for patterns to emerge. Madhusudani, i was with IC at the time, and got to see a lot of strange stuff, because i wasn't thought of as a threat to the gurus.
Kamsa also went on for 20 years, big deal. They get caught in the end. The Gaudiya Matha poisoner went on for forty years. That's ok, they are still guilty.
Kamsa also went on for 20 years, big deal. They get caught in the end. The Gaudiya Matha poisoner went on for forty years. That's ok, they are still guilty.
It is easy to keep secrets when no one is investigating. Nor is there easy access to vital information. Nor is there freedom of the press. There are many secrets that could be revealed, that are, in fact, in people's memories, but they don't yet have the hard evidence to substantiate them. And, people don't want to "get involved", because they fear the repurcussions.
Our Hindu neighbor Mrs. Vyasa says that when she heard the hindi, she cried. She felt intuitively that Srila Prabhupada had been mistreated. She also said that when Srila Prabhupada had waved for her to come over and speak to her, two cold clammy hands grabbed her shoulders and tried to stop her. Mr. Tamal. I also recall that Tamal told me in 1976, Puranjana you are just waiting for Srila Prabhupada to dis so you can sit in his seat. So, these things all add up, splicing the appointment tape, chasing out the devotees, and now we are merely seeing: the plot thickens. Again, this is what often happens in a criminal investigation...
To Jagad: I don't think anyone has speculated on a time-frame when the so-called conspiracy had started, nor a motive, since as Madhusudani says, Prabhupada was already frail. Yet, we also should try and determine the cryptic conversations with SP regarding being poisoned and see why he said so.
LOG ON: Bahudak
POINT: Tamal Krsna arranged everything to do with Srila Prabhupada s care. He saw to it that only his trusted friends were close enough to Srila Prabhupada to administer any food or medicine. It appears that Tamal Krsna dasa didn t keep a journal as to who was in Srila Prabhupada s room at all times during that crucial time period. Exactly what written records were kept of the movement of visitors in and out of Srila Prabhupada's room. What was the written directive at that time for the handling of tape recordings, their labeling, processing, and transferral to the Archives?
Puranjana Prabhu, If these are America's dumbest crooks, then why are we only finding out about this 'plot' twenty years down the road? For people who were so careless, they certainly managed to keep a secret.
Most crooks ultimately caught because they develop a mentality that they are immune. They get caught by Super Soul's arrangement, really. The Supreme Lord is always trying to reveal the evil doers, and every genius crook makes a slip-up sooner or later. The truth is always revealed. So, we cannot dismiss this tape whispering as potentially real simply based on the stupidity factor.
Rocana's point about the quality of care is valid. It seems like there were many young enthusiastic servants present during Srila Prabhupada's last 12 years. However, materially qualified people seemed more scarce. However, I find it hard to judge because I wasn't present and I understand from some of those who were that Prabhupada had some very definite opinions about his care and treatment and that he was not easy to defy. Could they have insisted on better doctors or caregivers? Possibly, but that really isn't the topic at hand now, is it?
Regarding the source material available from the BBT during 1977, there is a real lack of tapes, transcriptions available there during this time. We have had to resort to Lilamrita and other books like Tamala's "Final Pastimes of Srila Prabhupada" which we cannot hold as a transcendental document, or even mundane documentary.
Vaisnava dasa, you raise an interesting point. Many of us are working towards generating a comprehensive archive of all available transcripts, so these many points of "conversation flow" can be studied and discussed.
Besides, wouldn't these alleged perpetrators not have had another place to do their whispering? If they have been carrying out their nefarious plan for ten months, surely they could have made any changes in their modus operandi elsewhere.
i came to the LA temple in 78, living a few blocks away. came to the morning programs, evening programs,etc. the soon to be gurus like Rameswara, Hanmsadutta,and others would try to talk in a hindu-english way, like indians do who dont speak english correctly.
LOG ON: Gurudas
POINT: According to my understanding of Abhiramas statement, it sounds as though Srila Prabhupada s disease wasn t necessarily life threatening IF it had been diagnosed earlier and treated properly. Quote from Citrakara dasa, aka/Dr. Hans-Heinrich Rhyner, MD in Alternative Medicine, Yoga Expert, Ayurveda Physician and Philosopher, and a disciple of Srila Prabhupada: My question would rather be, why this condition was not properly taken care of much earlier. It would have certainly made Srila Prabhupada's quality of life much better and kept him alive 10 more years."
Puranjana to Madhusdani, crooks make many big mistakes when they think they are about to be caught, they get desparate and they might talk too loud, etc. This is well known, watch "America's dumbest crooks" on TV and you'll see this phenomena occurs all the time, hundreds of times ever day....
Chris, this did not happen in the LA temple. Are you trying to disqualify my statement because you think I haven't been around long enough? True, I was not in LA, I was in Atlanta. Were speech patterns really that different there? Also, how do you then disqualify Jagadananda's similar observation? He spent a lot of time in ISKCON communities in India with these guys in the 70s.
We played the November 8th tape on radio in Houston, they agree that the hindi points to poison. The tapes with Mr. Perle are really icing on the cake..
As far as the risk of being heard, it seems that someone was pulling a tape recorder away from the conversation that was taking place between Jayapataka Swami and Srila Prabhupada, and the microphone and tape recorder was being passed by these unknown "whisperers" without being turned off, unbeknownst to them.
The source of this all are the tapes, and the conversations with SP books. Now, did anyone find it very strange that when Prabhupada startled everyone with news about being given poison, Tamala responds by saying that no one can poison the harinam? And then let's just have kirtana? To me, it appears that the tapes were spliced or edited because the subject matter was then dropped altogether.
Chris, would you elaborate on your last comment, please?
Sorry, Puranjana I disagree. If they thought they were about to be caught, it might have made sense to *increase* the dosage or to use something different and more powerful. However, it doesn't logically follow that they would start *speaking* about it and risk being heard.
LOG ON: Vijnana
We now can go to great lengths to collect waters from 1080 holy rivers to purify Srila Prabhupada on his centennial, but then we couldn t search throughout all of India for the most highly qualified Aurvedic and naturopathic doctors to be in Srila Prabhupada s constant attendance.
on the contary, they did talk like this. If you were at the LA Temple in 1977-80, you would know what i'm talking about Madhusudani.
POINT: The hot sweet milk given to a known diabetic in crisis is another pertinent question to be placed at their feet. Who would be so foolish as to place themselves in this extremely responsible position and have no prerequisite qualifications or experience? What was the quality of advice being given? This also begs the question as to why nothing was actively done about Srila Prabhupada s medical condition long before he was beyond the point of no return.
Puranjana dasa say, Abhirama was not there on November 8th anyway, nor has he discussed that. Nex point: Why were they so blatant on November 10th? Simple. Srila Prabhupada had started to reveal their plot on November 8th, so they figured better to get him now, better to risk getting caught whispering, because if dont get him now we'll be exposed by him real soon....
I see that Madhusudani and I have exactly the same idea, arrived at entirely independently.
The poision could easily have been sugar in his milk, or this Auyervedic medicine that he was purportedly taking for over ten months. So, if he was being poisioned, those planning the scheme may not have intended for it to be a "quick" plan. Madhusudani dasi, I agree with your point about the use of language....why would the actual word "poison" be used in this context.
Apparently Narayana Maharaja was around during those last days too and Prabhupada spoke frankly with him. Has anyone contacted him about this? Also, has anyone contacted Prabhupada's doctor? Apparently he was not that old and could well still be alive.
The Gaudiya Matha had motivated people around who were supposedly the top leaders, Jesus was betrayed by his top leaders, and so on. This occurs in the lives of great saints. They know they have some motivated leaders, and Srila Prabhupada wrote that over and over...
I haven't heard the tape. But I have to say that 'Let's put the poison in his milk' does not seem like the type of thing possible poisoners would be whispering to each other around Prabhupad's bedside. (1) Wouldn't this have been planned elsewhere? This seems sort of spontaneous. (2) The language seems too direct. Poisoners would probably have a euphemistic way of speaking about what they are doing.
as i posted in Dharma-Mela last night, my daughter hears "poison" as did i. i cannot agree w/Bir Krsna Swami.
POINT: We need to explore what appears to be an astonishing degree of bewildered incompetence surrounding Srila Prabhupada at that time. For example, was Abhirama dasa a highly qualified nurse? Abhirama dasa recently wrote: "As you may know I acted as Srila Prabhupada s nurse and assistant secretary from 25th July through 16th October of 1977, and was therefore in the best position to evaluate the factors influencing his health during this time. I kept a diary which often documented his physical condition, food intakes, and discomforts."
Unfortunately, even the original interpretation People don't talk like that. If someone was actually planning on adding posion, do you really think they'd use those words, as opposed to "let's add this" or "let's add the powder" , or "let's add the pill" or whatever form the posin was in. It makes no sense whatsoever for them to actually say let's add the poison. Besides, if this was something that was added over a long period of time, it seems unlikely that they would continue to need to talk about it at each administration - and so openly. Third, based on all the medical reports about Prabhupada's condition, it sounds like he was close to dying anyway. Why do you think reducing his life by a number of weeks or months at most was so important to those who would take over?
Puranjana dasa says, Bir Krishna should listen to the November 8th tape, which is enough evidence itself to point out that Srila Prabhupada was poisoned.
Even if the tape analysis doesn t reveal the incriminating facts that it now appears are being revealed, there are still some very important lessons to be learned, and many important questions to be asked.
We are hoping that Isa dasa logs on this morning. I expect he could tell us details of the timetable for new, professional analysis of the tape, the audio prints, etc.
LOG ON: Margaret
TIMEOUT: Tulasi
I agree with you Puranjana dasa. Many items can be added to the long list you've given. But the question I have is, did Srila Prabhupada know that he was surrounded by personalities who could possibily do such a thing as poision him? If you think He had the ability to perceive the nature or the qualities and characteristics of these persons, would he have given them any endorsement as Rttvik acaryas after his departure?
Thanks for the help in getting this out Puranjana!
Bir Krsna's interpretation of the audio clip aside, does anyone else interpret the audio clip to say anything other than "Let's put poison in his milk"?
We've listened to the clip many times now and to us it could be any of the above or none of the above. Really hard to say, without a better copy and analysis. Does anyone know what the time table for the new analysis is?
JUST RECEIVED - The following note was received from Bir Krishna Swami at 5:00 p.m. PST, November 15th: "Sorry that I can't participate tommorrow, but you would be interested to know the whisper states: 'that's not part of the treatment.'
pamho & AGTSP, HARE KRSNA, Everyone
Dandavats to all.
PAMHO, Rocana, Puranjana, Bahudak, Madusudani, and anyone else I missed.
LOG ON: ChrisL
Haribol, Maitreya and I just logged on (under my
name)
LOG ON: Daruka dasa
LOG ON: Jagadananda
Haribol, everyone. I just wanted to say that the
audio clip sure did not sound like what Bir Krsna said it said.
I`m just observing as well,That is if my browser will allow
me!
TIMEOUT: Daruka dasa
LOG ON: Madhusudani
Haribol, this is Puranjana dasa. All glories to
Srila Prabhupada and please accept my obeisances. I would like to say that the poison issue
cannot be separated from the other issues, such as the editing of tapes, the mistreatment of the
devotees, the molester guru project, etc. We have been dealing primarily with the symptoms,
bad enough as they are, but It think now we are reaching the central root issue, and we seem
destiny bound to pursue this to the most detailed end we can muster.
Rocana has changed the topic.
LOG ON: Vaisnava
Haribol, everyone. Please accept my humble
obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! Thank you all for coming. This was a very last
minute event, so it's hard to tell how many might arrive here this a.m.
Hari bol prabhus, I'm just observing for now.
LOG ON: Rocana
LOG ON: Puranjana
LOG ON: Tulasi dasi
Daruka
LOG ON: Dono
LOG OFF: Dono
Just signing on here,I`am amazed at the speed at which
this thing is spreading!
LOG ON: Dono
TIMEOUT: Bahudak
LOG ON: Tulasi
LOG ON: Daruka dasa
TIMEOUT: Yashoda dd
Am I too early? Where is everyone? Since I
seem to have the forum to myself let me make some comments about the topic of possible
poisoning of Srila Prabhupada. If this topic is pushed to it's logical conclusion it could lead to the
exhuming of Srila Prabhupada's transcendental body for pathological tests. Do we want this to
happen? Would this make us more Krishna Conscious? Would it advance the cause of Krishna
Consciousness? It may be the case that the appointment tapes were false. But that system (
zonal acharya) is basically ended. There remain zonal acharya empires in certain parts of the
world but the ISKCON that I have seen , Vancouver, Mexico, the system is gone. Let us not be
stuck in the past . Let us get off the eternal conspiracy bandwagon. Let us focus on the postive
practices of Krishna Consciousness. Let us become Krishna Conscious again; chanting, dancing,
hearing, associating, taking prasadam, festivals, etc. I am getting old. I have been bitter long
enough. It is not a good way to live. Let us look to the future and not dwell on the past. Clean up
the past where we can and go forward.
Haribol everyone. Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
A beautiful sunny Sunday morning where I live.
LOG ON: Bahudak
TIMEOUT: Ananda das
Ananda haribol
LOG ON: Jimmy
I offer my humblest and prostrated obeisances
to all Vaishnavas.
Recently extremely serious charges have been levelled against some
of my godbrothers. Some people think that these devotees have misunderstood Srila
Prabhupad's teachings, that they have arrogated too much power to themselves, or that none of
them can ever become gurus, despite Prabhupad's order that all of us should do so. These
points can be debated amongst honest Vaishnavas, and conclusions can be drawn based on our
principles of sadhu, guru and shastra. For example, those people who claim that Prabhupad still
initiates after his disappearance could by the same logic seek initiation from Bhaktivinode
Thakur, Jiva Goswami, Lord Chaitanya, Sripad Madhvacharya, or Narada Muni. Such a
principle is completely contrary to the simple instruction in the Bhagavad-gita that one must
seek out a spiritual master and inquire from the guru submissively. An imaginary relationship
with a historical personality will never suffice.
Now, however, the smear campaign has
gone too far. And it ought to stop here. Please, prabhus, what earthly point do such dreadful
allegations serve? How is Srila Prabhupad's Krishna Consciousness movement furthered by
casting brickbats at his sincere disciples?
If one simply engages in character
assassination, how does one's own devotional creeper make any headway? Even listening to
such character assassination, or reading it, is spiritually harmful. Should we not stop to
examine our own souls for impurities before we denounce the perceived falldowns of others?
All efforts to villify the practitioners of Krishna Consciousness will redound to the author's
discredit.
Some people who find fault with their godbrothers may be motivated more by
envy than by any supposed dedication to finding the truth. Envy and faultfinding look ill on the
aspirant devotee.
Let us instead make common cause against the real enemy -- Maya
Devi -- and stop needless bickering amongst ourselves. I am willing to be friends with any
person who wants to chant Hare Krishna and make his or her life perfect. I do not want to be an
enemy to any such person.
Prabhupad came to this world to preach and to manufacture
more preachers like himself. How much real preaching is being done by those who simply issue
catcalls? Am I missing something here?
Let us all solemnly resolve that henceforward,
like the bee which goes to the flower and brings back only the nectar, we will only look for the
good in each other. If we perceive a fault, let us discuss it only in private with the person in
whom the fault is alleged. By carrying abroad tales of alleged malfeasance, we may be unfairly
maligning a sincere devotee. A sincere devotee will generally not defend oneself against
aspersions, because such a person perceives oneself to be very fallen. But one who makes a
dramatic public point of some other devotee's error is risking his or her own