Varnasrama System Must be Introduced
BY: HDG A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI SRILA PRABHUPADA
Srila Prabhupada visiting Gita-Nagari Farm, 1975
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Apr 01, INDIA (SUN)
Srila Prabhupada's Room Conversation
February 14, 1977, Mayapur
Satsvarupa: ...thought they were suppressed.
Prabhupada: Revolution means they are dissatisfied.
Satsvarupa: French Revolution, Russian Revolution.
Prabhupada: These things were not going nicely. Therefore gradually it broke. But if things are going nicely, people will be happy. They will not revolt. You have to keep the citizens satisfied in all respects. You must know the necessity how people are satisfied. You have to arrange the government in that way. Then there will be no revolution. Mass of people, if they are satisfied, they will not revolt. But they do not know the process. The "demoncracy," the common man is allowed to vote. He has no knowledge and he's voting. This is most condemned process. Camara-bhangi, a sweeper, he is voted to become Minister of Defense. His business is to cleanse the street, and now he's voted to become because he has got number of votes. So many bhangis, they vote, "Yes, he is our leader. He should be Defense Minister." You have to do that. This is democracy. His business is to sweep, and he's voted a defense minister.
Hari-sauri: But in, say in America, they argue that everybody's educated now. In America...
Prabhupada: What educated? Educated means hippies. That's all. This is their education. They do not know what is meant by education. Education... University student was informed that "Next birth you may become a dog," so he said, "What is the wrong there?" This is education. Is that education, that he agrees to become a dog very happily? There is no education. Simply waste of time.
Satsvarupa: But at least if there is extreme exploitation by a king or dictator it can't be changed. But the people...
Prabhupada: There cannot be exploitation if things are made in order. Just like ksatriya should be trained up as ksatriya. Then he is king. Not that a bhangi by vote becomes a king. This is education.
sauryam tejo dhrtir daksyam
yuddhe capy apalayanam
danam isvara-bhavas ca
ksatram karma svabhava-jam
He must be very powerful, very strong, strongly built. You have seen the picture, Ramacandra? Sturdy body. You see. Laksmana. Because ksatriya. They should be trained up as ksatriya. Therefore the varnasrama college is required to train people who is able to become a brahmana, who is able to become a ksatriya, who is able to become... In this way division must be. And according to the quality and work there must be division for cooperation. There is a big scheme. They have lost. They do not know. All bhangis, camara, sudras, they are simply given vote. That's all. Where is the training?
Hari-sauri: But what is the use of having big strong body if now they're using airplanes and tanks and guns.
Prabhupada: That is your useless waste of time. Why? Therefore the war does not stop, unnecessary war, and such a big war, Kuruksetra, in eighteen days it is finished. This is decision. And this is going on, continually war, strain, politics, diplomacy, lecture, Parliament. There is no finishing of war. There is no finishing. It will go on. Just like same example: If you keep the dogs as dogs, they'll going on barking. It will never finish. So this is the civilization of dog work. It is not human civilization. Therefore it is going on. War is not stopped. Where is stop? War is stopped? No. Going on. And it will go on because they are dogs. You cannot stop their barking. There are so many things. If we follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gita, then whole world will be... This is a fact. Now, how to implement it, that is another thing. It is a fact.
Hari-sauri: Because even the yavanas and mlecchas were following the ksatriya system in Krsna's time. Just like Jarasandha. He had all the chivalrous respect of a ksatriya even though he was a demon. But nowadays everybody's... No one is...
Prabhupada: Everybody's sudra. Nobody's brahmana, nobody's...
Prabhupada: Sudra is to be controlled only. They are never given to be freedom. Just like in America. The blacks were slaves. They were under control. And since you have given them equal rights they are disturbing, most disturbing, always creating a fearful situation, uncultured and drunkards. What training they have got? They have got equal right? That is best, to keep them under control as slaves but give them sufficient food, sufficient cloth, not more than that. Then they will be satisfied.
Hari-sauri: If that's done then how will those who have some potential to be educated, how will we recognize them?
Prabhupada: Either educate them or control them. Give them facility of education. But there is no education at all. Even for the whites there is no education. So we are stressing on the point of education. You educate certain section as brahmana, certain section as ksatriya, certain section as vaisya. In that education we don't discriminate because he's coming of a sudra family. Take education. Be qualified. Then you talk. Not by votes.
Satsvarupa: Lord Caitanya, when Ramananda Raya brought this up He said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.
Prabhupada: Yes. Not... He did not say possible. Iha bahya. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.
Satsvarupa: But don't we do that also?
Prabhupada: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Krsna consciousness in everything. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took sannyasa. He rejected completely material. Niskincana. But we are not going to be niskincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the... That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the whole society. Caitanya Mahaprabhu rejected everything, iha bahya. Rejected meaning, "I do not take much interest in this." Bahya. "It is external." He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu, personality like that, they have nothing to do with this material world. But we are preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane, which is not required.
Satsvarupa: Varnasrama is not required.
Prabhupada: Not required. Caitanya Mahaprabhu denied, "I am not brahmana, I am not ksatriya, I am not this, I am not this." He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gita, the catur-varnyam maya srstam. So we are Krsna..., preaching Krsna consciousness. It must be done.
Hari-sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's practical preaching He only induced them to chant.
Prabhupada: That is not possible for ordinary man.
Hari-sauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?
Hari-sauri: He only introduced just the chanting.
Prabhupada: But who will chant? Who'll chant?
Satsvarupa: But if they won't chant, then neither will they train up in the varnasrama. That's the easiest.
Prabhupada: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds. (And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
Satsvarupa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasada...
Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.
Hari-sauri: Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varnasrama is not possible.
Prabhupada: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop.
Hari-sauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varnasrama and like that.
Prabhupada: Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The... People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridasa Thakura to chant, it is not possible.
Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.
Prabhupada: Yes. Thakaha apanara kaje, Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Apanara kaja ki. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitah. And if they do not remain in the sthana, then the sahajiya's chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyas also have got the beads and..., but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our (name withheld). He was not fit for sannyasa but he was given sannyasa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...
Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, ksatriyas. There must be regular education.
Hari-sauri: But in our community, if the..., being as we're training up as Vaisnavas...
Hari-sauri: ...then how will we be able to make divisions in our society?
Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.
Hari-sauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava, is not so easy. If Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so many fall down, fall down? It is not easy. The sannyasa is for the highest qualified brahmana. And simply by dressing like a Vaisnava, that is... fall down.
Hari-sauri: So the varnasrama system is like for the kanisthas, Kanistha-adhikari.
Hari-sauri: When one is only on the platform of neophyte.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Kanistha-adhikari, yes.
Hari-sauri: Varnasrama system is beneficial.
Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari means he must be a brahmana. That is kanistha-adhikari. The spiritual life, kanistha-adhikari, means he must be a qualified brahmana. That is kanistha. What is esteemed as very high position in the material world, brahmana, that is kanistha-adhikari.
arcayam eva haraye
pujam yah sraddhayehate
na tad-bhaktesu canyesu
sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah
The brahmana means from the material stage gradually he is elevated to the spiritual stage. And below the brahmana there is no question of Vaisnava.
Hari-sauri: No question of?
srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah
hrdy antah-stho hy abhadrani
vidhunoti suhrt satam
By becoming a brahmana, hearing, hearing, hearing... Or by hearing, hearing, hearing, he becomes a brahmana. The other qualities, sudra quality, ksatriya, vaisya, means finished. So then next stage is, srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah punya-sravana-kirtanah, hrdy antah... Nasta-prayesv abhadresu. By this process, hearing... Without becoming a brahmana nobody is interested to hear. Then, by hearing, nasta-prayesv abhadresu, then abhadra, means the base qualities, means ignorance and passion... These are the base qualities. So nasta-prayesv abhadresu. When these base qualities are finished almost, not complete, nityam bhagavata-sevaya, by hearing from Bhagavata or by serving the spiritual master and Krsna consciousness movement--
bhaktir bhavati naisthiki
Then he becomes fixed up in devotional... This devotional service is the first-grade quality of sattva-guna.
bhaktir bhavati naisthiki
Tada rajas-tamo-bhavah. When one is situated as a devotee, then this base quality, rajas-tamah, ignorance and passion, the symptoms: kama-lobhadayas ca ye. Kama, lusty desires, and greediness. Sex desire, strong sex desire or satisfy the senses, eating too much, lobha, greediness--these things go. Nityam bhagavata-sevaya bhagavaty uttama... When one is situated in devotional service, tada rajas-tamo-bhavah. These are rajas-tamo... These are the symptoms of rajas-tamo-bhavah. Tada rajas-tamo-bhavah kama-lobhadayas ca ye, ceta etair anaviddham. The mind is no more disturbed with all these things. Sthitam sattve prasidati. Then he is to be understood... He's in the sattva-guna. That is perfect brahminical life. Then he'll be pleased. Prasidati. In this way, gradual step... So it is very difficult to bring, introduce varnasrama, but at least there must be some idea. Just like in the university, nobody is going to study higher mathematics, higher English literature. Nobody goes even in your country. The classes are almost vacant. But still, the government does not close it. The expenditure is high, but there is no student, no income. Therefore the professors coming to us, "Give us some student." You know that?
Satsvarupa: Religion professors.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, higher studies...
Satsvarupa: Yes. "Send us some of your men."
Prabhupada: Nobody is interested with higher study. They want some technological understanding so that they can earn money. That's all. This is only interest.
Satsvarupa: In our ISKCON, one becomes a brahmana after a year. It's not very hard. Everyone becomes a brahmana.
Prabhupada: That is due to chanting. That lift very easily.
Hari-sauri: Where will we introduce the varnasrama system, then?
Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.
Hari-sauri: But then if everybody's being raised to the brahminical platform...
Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnasrama, not everybody brahmana.
Hari-sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...
Prabhupada: That is... Everybody is being raised, but they're falling down.
Hari-sauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get...
Hari-sauri: ...brahminical initiation. After four or five years.
Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a ksatriya. You'll be ha...
Hari-sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then...
Prabhupada: No, no.
Hari-sauri: ...unless one is...
Prabhupada: No, brahmana must be there. Why do you say, generalize?
Hari-sauri: Unless one is particularly...
Prabhupada: Not that a sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam... He'll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.
Hari-sauri: For Krsna.
Prabhupada: Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let them, let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, he'll also be as good as a brahmana. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, "Do the work of a leg," it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.
Satsvarupa: Today you've been saying that the Vaisnava is the highest, above the brahmana. But then we've also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaisnava.
Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnava everyone, even if he's not brahmana. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that "I am servant of Krsna." Here the bodily conception is going on, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am this," "I am that."
Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, "Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra..."
Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don't want. I want everyone to become Vaisnava. But because he's a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaisnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a sudra, he's a Vaisnava.
Hari-sauri: So we'd have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.
Prabhupada: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they're falling down. There must be systematic. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Krsna says. Bring that Bhagavad-gita. Sve sve karmany abhiratah?
sve sve karmany abhiratah
samsiddhim labhate narah
yatha vindati tac chrnu
"By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done."
Prabhupada: Yes. He is sudra, clerk. He can... As a sudra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brahmana and sannyasi and fall down? This has to be checked.
Hari-sauri: So that depends upon our men who are giving recommendations.
Prabhupada: So that recommendation is not good. Bible is giving so many recommendation. He's also not following them. (laughs)
Hari-sauri: Following them. So how will we implement? Right now we have... Every temple president can...
Prabhupada: That is supposed. Where there is no tree, a castor seed tree is very big tree. That is going on.
Satsvarupa: If there's no tree?
Prabhupada: You know castor seed tree, a plant? it does not grow.
Prabhupada: Small. So there is no banyan tree. It is taken--"Oh, it is very big."
Hari-sauri: I don't follow the analogy.
Satsvarupa: In the complete absence of trees, then a small tree is considered big.
Hari-sauri: Oh. (laughs) Well, say, like here in Mayapura now we have a situation...
Prabhupada: No, no. Why? Why one should stress to become big tree? Here it is clearly said even if you are small tree, you can get perfection. So we should take that.
Hari-sauri: So in Mayapura here now we have that situation, that so many...
Prabhupada: Everywhere, wherever, Mayapura or anywhere. Question is that here it is clearly said, sve sve karmany abhiratah. Brahmana has his duty, ksatriya has his duty, vaisya has his duty, sudra has his duty. And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially he should be called a brahmana? Let them do, according to sastra, the work of sudra, or vaisya. He'll get the perfect. Perfection is not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brahmana or he should be made a sannyasi and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That's good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Varnasramacaravata purusena parah puman visnur aradhyate. Visnu, Lord Visnu, can be worshiped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varnas and four asramas. Here it is also said, sve sve karmani. You work as a perfect brahmana or a perfect ksatriya, perfect sudra; you get perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life. Why should artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become ludicrous? Perfection is not checked.
Satsvarupa: But in most of our temples, the duties are either Deity worship, brahmana...
Prabhupada: Brahmanas are available. Why you are bothering about this? Brahmanas are also available, sudras are also available. Why sudra should be artificially become a brahmana?
Satsvarupa: What will the sudras do in the big city temple, in all the temples?
Prabhupada: Why you are bringing our temples? I am talking of the principle.
Hari-sauri: The principle we follow. We're just thinking how it can be implemented. You were saying that it should be started in our society.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is a very broad idea. Now we are speaking of some of them, training them. That is another thing. That is small scale.
Hari-sauri: The principle we're following.
Prabhupada: Yes. In the... For the big scale, this is the required. In big scale you cannot make all of them as brahmanas or sannyasis. No. That is not possible. This is a small scale. How many percentage of people of the world we are controlling? Very insignificant. But if you want to make the whole human society perfect, then this Krsna consciousness movement should be introduced according to the Krsna's instruction, if you want to do it in a large scale for the benefit of the whole human society. Now we are picking up some of them, best. That is another thing. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu said para-upakara. Why a certain section should be picked up? The whole mass of people will get the benefit of it. Then it is required, systematic. Sve sve karmany abhiratah samsiddhim labhate narah. Para-upakara means mass benefit, not there is certain section. Then we have to introduce this varnasrama-dharma. It must be done perfectly, and it is possible and people will be happy.
Satsvarupa: It requires powerful influence in the society to...
Prabhupada: Yes. If the leaders of the society, they agree. They are barking like dogs in the United Nation. They should take rightly the instruction of Bhagavad-gita. Then everything will be all right. They're simply barking like dogs. What benefit is there? What benefit people have derived from the United Nation? Nothing. So if they want actually world peace, world unity, they must take the formula given by Krsna. That is our duty. Because we are preaching Krsna consciousness, so our duty is to convince that "You are uselessly wasting your time for unity, for benefit of the human... You take this. You'll be happy." We are safe. We have taken to Krsna's lotus feet shelter. There is no doubt. But... Just like Prahlada Maharaja. He said that "I am quite happy. I have no problem. But I am thinking of these rascals." Tato vimudha-cetasa indriyartha: "They have made the whole aim of life sense gratification." Indriyartha. "And for that purpose, a few years, they're making huge arrangement, how we shall become happy?" And next life a dog. It is risky. So as Krsna conscious men, we should try to save them. That is the duty. But this civilization as it is going on is very risky. They do not know how nature's law is working, how he's going to be a dog next life. He does not know. Mudho nabhijanati. To save the mass people from falling down to the repetition of birth and death, that is welfare activity. To save them by Krsna consciousness, we have to keep this ideal at least, varnasrama, that "Here is the position."
Hari-sauri: At this time should we try to introduce it in our centers or not?
Prabhupada: Always we shall try. Human society will be always there. We have to serve them, para-upakara. We have to keep them in the right position.
Hari-sauri: I just remember two or three years ago there was a thing... A pamphlet came out about introducing the varnasrama system in the society, but actually nothing came of it.
Prabhupada: Yes. That time was not right. Now you can do something.
Satsvarupa: That was the beginning of emphasis on farms when Prabhupada said that, when more and more farms start, the idea of the vaisya. But nothing else happened.
Prabhupada: Every business is important. Brahmana business is important, ksatriya... Just like the body. Head is important; the arm is important; the belly is important. They must be kept in order. Just like I am in trouble because my belly is not working. Digesting power is not good. So in spite of brain, hand, and leg, I am diseased. If any part of the society remains diseased, the whole society will suffer. Therefore they must be maintained in correct order. You cannot say if there is some trouble in the leg, "Neglect the leg. Take care of the brain." No. Brain will be taxed due to the pain in the leg. This is nature. Therefore everyone should be kept in order. Then things will go on. That is varnasrama. They do not know that. Sometimes they are giving stress... That communist is giving stress to the sudra class, and the capitalist are giving to the belly class. And what about the head? What about the arms? And therefore topsy-turvied. Everything is disorder. There are two classes of men now--capitalist and communist. The communist is giving stress, "No. Simply the legs shall be taken care." What is called? Proly?
Prabhupada: What is that proletariat?
Satsvarupa: The laborers.
Prabhupada: That's all. These rascals are giving stress on the legs. And the capitalists, they are giving stress on production. And where is the ksatriya and brahmana?
Hari-sauri: Well, they're all giving stress to accumulation of weapons. They're all giving stress to...
Prabhupada: That is not ksatriya's business. That is... That is... No, that is described. Krsna said... He arranged the battlefield, because the ksatriyas, they became very powerful by individual military strength as it is now...
Prabhupada: Ha. So Krsna arranged: "All right, you come together and finish yourselves." So this arrangement will be done that all atomic bomb will come in warfield--one, next, third war, finished. All these, all these demons will be finished. That is not ksatriya. This is demonic. Ksatriyas' business is to see that the four orders of life are maintained properly, not increasing military strength only, overburdened. Everyone is spending 75% of the revenue for military. Huh? Paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam. So they are demons. Why so much money should be spent for military? They are not ksatriyas. They are not ksatriyas. They are demons. So demons... As soon as there will be number of demons increased, there will be war and finish all.
Hari-sauri: So at least if we successfully introduce the varnasrama system in our own society, then when all the demons finish themselves...
Prabhupada: At least... At least... At least they will see, "This is the ideal."
Hari-sauri: Yes. Then if there is a war after that, it will be all right.
Prabhupada: At least ideal must be there. That we are doing.
Hari-sauri: This will more or less revolutionize the way we're running our centers. If we introduce it, it will more or less revolutionize the way we're running our centers.
Prabhupada: Why? Why revolution?
Hari-sauri: Because right now our only emphasis is just to simply produce brahmanas.
Prabhupada: So why you are taking "we"? Why not others? This is kanistha-adhikari. You are thinking of "we." That is kanistha-adhikari. It is not that "we." Na tad-bhaktesu canyesu. You have to think for others also.
Satsvarupa: But the people are not at our disposal to organize.
Hari-sauri: We are thinking of "we" because actually we only have our own society at the moment to organize.
Satsvarupa: We cannot approach the masses to organize.
Hari-sauri: It can't be implemented on such a big scale.
Prabhupada: I do not follow what you say.
Satsvarupa: Just like...
Prabhupada: Ideal. We are giving the ideal.
Satsvarupa: But no one's listening and no one's taking it up except a few...
Prabhupada: But you take. You show them.
Hari-sauri: That's why we say, "we."
Prabhupada: That "We said" means not we are going to take them, but we are simply giving the ideas. We are not going to be a sudra. But to show the... Just like you play in a drama. You are playing the part of a king. You are not a king.
Prabhupada: So similarly, just to give them idea, we have to play like that.
Hari-sauri: Well, again, that's...
Prabhupada: Not necessarily that we are going to be sudra. So that is it. That is the thing. We are servant of Krsna. That's all. And as servant of Krsna, we have to execute the order of Krsna.
Satsvarupa: So we can ideally organize ourselves and then for the rest of the people all we can do is hope that they'll follow it.
Bhavananda: Set the example.
Prabhupada: Example. Just like Bhavananda, when there was no commode here. He was taking my stool and urine. Does it mean he is a sweeper? He's a sannyasi Vaisnava. Similarly, apani acari' jive sikhaila. Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "I am not a sannyasi." But He took sannyasa. Actually He is God, so what is the benefit of becoming a sannyasi, for God? But He became that. (break) In order to serve the mass of people, to bring them to the ideal position, we should try to introduce this varnasrama, not that we are going to be candidates of varnasrama. It is not our business. But to teach them how the world will be in peaceful position we have to introduce. Now the days of wind will come from March.
Satsvarupa: Winds begin?
Prabhupada: And April this wind is...
Satsvarupa: Winds begin now?
Bhavananda: Yes. They'll start to come from the south. Vaikuntha breezes.
Prabhupada: Now here is a very nice institution for the benefit of the whole society human.
Bhavananda: Srila Prabhupada, in our preaching in Bengal, many times we come to villages and the people are very sincere. They say that "We have our village, but we need someone here to guide us."
Bhavananda: "If you could make one small little temple with Gaura-Nitai and have someone here to tell us what to do..." They want to become Krsna conscious.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Bhavananda: But there's no one there to guide them.
Prabhupada: So you reply this, that "You come. I shall train you. You will guide. We are prepared to guide you, but it is not possible to, bring men outside to guide you. You come to us. I shall train you how to guide." This is the reply. And that is wanted. This Bon Maharaja failed. Why? He wanted... Guru Maharaja wanted that you start one temple in London. But he was thinking of bringing, taking men from India. Actually he had no.... (break) That is the fact. Therefore he failed. Instead of serving Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, he wanted to serve Vivekananda. To become like Vivekananda and "I shall be very much eulogized in my country, second Vivekananda." That was his ambition. He never wished to defy Vivekananda and elevate Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He has introduced in his Oriental Institute, Gandhi philosophy, Vivekananda philosophy. Just see his position. He's appreciating... We are simply condemning Gandhi philosophy, and he's appreciating Gandhi. We are simply depreciating Vivekananda, and he's introducing Vivekananda. This is his position. He cannot understand even that where is philosophy in Vivekananda and Gandhi? Gandhi is nationalist. Again problem with your finger. Twenty-four hours, finger problem or nose problem. That I am observing. No attention. So where is philosophy in Vivekananda or Gandhi? He was nationalist. Nationalist means dehatma-buddhi. Dehatma-buddhi means sa eva go-kharah, cows and asses. He worked throughout his whole life for Indian people. In Africa also, he wasted twenty years, and India, thirty years. Fifty years. He lived for seventy-eight years. So twenty-seven years was for his education or something like that and fifty years wasted. This is his position. And he's a big man. Actually he wasted fifty years. Twenty years in Durban and thirty years in... He started in 1917, and svaraja was, independence was given to India in '47. He had nothing... It is not due to him. It is that Subash Bose's INA. So twenty years there, thirty years--fifty years he wasted of his life. And balance, twenty-seven, education, sex with wife and so on, so on. He was so sexually inclined, he has written in his biography that when his father was dying he was enjoying sex life with his wife. Just see how he was sexually inclined. He could not take the serious illness of his father. He's going to die. He was enjoying his wife. We can... Just from one point we can understand. Everyone is sexual in young days. That is generally. But just see his position, that his father was going to die and he was enjoying sex.
Satsvarupa: I read that. They called him, so he stopped having sex and went to the bedroom, but it was too late. His father was already dead. So he must have been actually having sex just at the moment his father died.
Prabhupada: Yes. He has written. Not only that. Nowadays somebody has accused that even in his old age he was having sex with young girls. I do not know. But it is a fact, when he was coming in the meeting he would touch two young girls, granddaughter and granddaughter-in-law, and then come in the meeting. I have seen. One gentleman in our, the Mullick's Thakur Badhi, when we were there. He was attorney. So when there was some function, so all neighboring men were invited. So he was also invited. He would come with at least three, four prostitutes. And he was old man, blind. Asutosh Bhan. He became very rich man by cunning lawyer. He was a lawyer. So he would take a credit that "When I go to a friend's house to keep my invitation, I take some three, four prostitute and flatterer. Then..." And he'd be received very nicely. We have seen when, when we were boys, ten years, twelve years old. I have seen it. Formerly, in our father's time, it was aristocratic to keep one prostitute and keep one garden also. Then he'll get... So this man, dehatma-buddhi and sexually inclined, he is mahatma. This is the standard of... Ramakrishna, he was worshiping goddess Kali. It is condemned in the Bhagavad-gita, kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah prapadyante 'nya-devatah, that "Anyone who is worshiping a demigod, he is lost of all sense." So this man, by losing his all senses, worshiping a demigod, he became God. People do not take reference from Bhagavad-gita, that "A demigod worshiper has no sense, and he has become God?" What kind of God? Senseless God? And God's definition is aisvaryasya samagrasya viryasya yasasah sriyah, jnana. God means full in knowledge. And a man who has no sense, he has become God? From logic. Jnana-vairagyayas caiva. God means he has got full knowledge. And this man is senseless and he has become God. Logic, how you can defy? And they're accepting: "Ramakrishna is God." How you defend it? I am giving this logic. Defend.
Satsvarupa: I've given that argument, and people have said back, "Oh, he didn't say he was God." They say... He said that...
Prabhupada: No, you are advertising, "Ramakrishna Avatara." "Bhagavan Ramakrishna." "Bhagavan Ramakrishna." Everyone is God--then why you are after God? You remain. You are servant of your wife, your prostitute. Then you are also devotee because everyone is God. A prostitute-hunter is also devotee because he's devoted to the prostitute and prostitute is God. Then why you search out another God? Hm? Everyone is God. Why you search out another God? Why you bring Ramakrishna God? Better remain satisfied with your prostitute, your dog. (pause--talking in background) That Dr. Sharma has given very good (indistinct)?
Satsvarupa: Yes. Of all commentaries his is the best, including Ramanuja and Madhva.
ye yatha mam prapadyante
tams tathaiva bhajamy aham
manusyah partha sarvasah
"Everyone follows My path in all respects." So even if I worship the demigods, I am worshiping ultimately Bhagavan. Krsna says, "Everyone follows my path in all respects."
Prabhupada: That is not the meaning. The meaning is: "Everyone is searching after Me, but they, unless they come to Me, they will search one after another position." What is the purport?
Bhavananda: "Everyone is searching for Krsna in different aspects of His manifestations. Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is partially realized in His impersonal brahmajyoti effulgence and as the all-pervading Supersoul dwelling within everything including the particles of atoms. But Krsna is only fully realized by His pure devotees. Consequently Krsna is the object of everyone's realization and thus anyone and everyone is satisfied according to one's desire to have him. In the transcendental..."
Prabhupada: Brahman... Brahman is also Krsna, and Paramatma is also Krsna. So if one is attached to Brahman, he's also worshiping Krsna. That is the meaning.
Satsvarupa: Or even a demigod.
Prabhupada: Demigod. Everyone is part and parcel of Krsna. But he's searching after real Krsna.
Bhavananda: But what is the harm? Durga, she is in charge of... She is Krsna's agent, so what is the harm in worshiping Durga?
Prabhupada: Harm means you remain with Durga's province. Yanti deva-vrata devan. You cannot expect to go to Krsna's place. You have to satisfy yourself and remain within this material world. This is Durga's place.
Bhavananda: "Men in this world desire success in fruitive activities and therefore they worship the demigods. Quickly, of course, men get results from fruitive work in this world."
Bhavananda: So if I can become happy by worshiping Durga in this material world...
Prabhupada: But that... That is maya. You'll never be happy. You are thinking like that. Who is in the material world happy? Nobody's happy. But because you are fool, you are thinking this is happiness.
Hari-sauri: He says the results are only temporary, anyway.
Prabhupada: Temporary but it is miserable also. But you are eternal. Why you should be satisfied with temporary happiness? If you be satisfied, be satisfied. That is your business. But that is not real happiness. Why you should take repeated birth and death? If there is another life where there is no birth and death, why should you not take that? You are eternal. But because you are a fool, you think that "If I get ten thousand years of life and very comfortable life, that is happiness." That is mistake. Kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah. That is also said. Why don't you refer to that...? "Such persons have lost that intelligence."
Satsvarupa: I've heard that Ramakrishna said that even if by mistake one worships the wrong Deity, God won't hold that mistake against him. Even though he's worshiping a demigod and he thinks that's God, so that's a mistake, but God is not so...
Prabhupada: But the Ramakrishna rascal saying. Krsna says, yanti deva-vrata devan. If you worship demigod, you go to the demigod. You can say...
Satsvarupa: God Himself says.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Yes. We have not to take the instruction of a man-made God. We have to take instruction of the real God.
Hari-sauri: The second half of that verse says that "As they surrender unto Me I reward accordingly," So it's not that everybody gets the same results.
Prabhupada: Yes, accordingly, because nothing can happen without Krsna's desire. Even if you want some benefit from the demigods, that must be sanctioned by Krsna. That is stated. Mayaiva vihitan hi tan. Find out. Ye 'py anya-devata. Ye 'py anya-devata-bhaktah. (break)
Bhavananda: They also say that everything... They accept everything as part and parcel of Krsna. Everything is part and parcel of Krsna and everyone has same qualities as Krsna.
Prabhupada: No, that is not the fact. That is rascaldom.
Bhavananda: One drop of the ocean contains all the qualities of the big ocean, the chemical components...
Prabhupada: Then all the qualities, not the quantity. Then how it can be equal?
Bhavananda: But absolute means that a part is also equal to the whole.
Prabhupada: Equal to the whole in quality, not in quantity.
Bhavananda: Then in quantity means universal form.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Bhavananda: Not Krsna. Not Krsna but universal form.
Prabhupada: Krsna is... Krsna is bigger than the universal form. Krsna assumed the universal form, not that universal form made Krsna.
Bhavananda: No, but everyone taken together makes Krsna.
Prabhupada: Krsna... Arjuna wanted to see His universal form; then Krsna assumed. Then Krsna is the origin of the universal form. Aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah... Even universal form is coming from Krsna. These rascals, they do not know.
Bhavananda: Their philosophy is that everyone taken together forms Krsna.
Prabhupada: That is their philosophy, but everything taken together means that is a partial manifestation of Krsna. Krsna is still greater.
Bhavananda: If Krsna says that "Everything material and spiritual is coming from Me."
Prabhupada:"Coming from Me." Therefore He is greater than both material...
Bhavananda: Does that mean Krsna is beyond even spiritual?
ye 'py anya-devata-bhakta
te 'pi mam eva kaunteya
Prabhupada: Next verse.
aham hi sarva-yajnanam
bhokta ca prabhur eva ca
na tu mam abhijananti
tattvenatas cyavanti te
"I am the only enjoyer and the only object of sacrifice. Those who do not recognize my true transcendental nature fall down."
Prabhupada: Hm. Next verse.
yanti deva-vrata devan
pitrn yanti pitr-vratah
bhutani yanti bhutejya
yanti mad-yajino 'pi mam
Prabhupada: There is discrimination, yanti mad-yajino mam, not that everyone. Another verse... Antavat tu phalam tesam tad bhavaty alpa...
antavat tu phalam tesam
tad bhavaty alpa-medhasam
devan deva-yajo yanti
mad-bhakta yanti mam api
"Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but my devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet."
Prabhupada: That is the...
Bhavananda: Then how yato mata tato patha, became so strong?
Prabhupada: This is rascal. Therefore we say they are rascal. Path is one: mam ekam saranam vraja, and they have manufactured this, yato mata tato patha. Mata is one. Food has to be given to the mouth, not to the eyes. You can say, "Here is a hole, here is a hole. Here is a..." Anybody... No. This hole. There are nine holes all over the body. You cannot put food in either of them, only this one. You cannot water every part of the tree. Put water on the root, and everything is satisfied.
Bhavananda: "I am not qualified to worship Krsna, so let me just worship the Mother. She is part of Krsna, so let me just worship her..."
Prabhupada: You'll get the path of yanti deva. You go to Mother and become a goat and be sacrificed. You cut throat of a goat now by satisfying Mother, and next life the goat will cut throat, yours. Go to mother. That's all. If you like, you can go. And if you think that is good--by worshiping Mother, "I am getting daily nice goat flesh. Why shall I go to Krsna?" That's all right, but be prepared, that so many times you'll be also cut, your head, and this goat will get chance to cut your head. Mother is witness. Mother is for the goat and for you also. So you are cutting the throat of the goat, so why the Mother will not give the chance to the goat to cut your head? Why do you think like that, rascal? "The Mother is kind to me and unkind to the goat?" That means nasta-buddhi, lost intelligence. If you think Mother, then you must think that Mother of the goat also. Why Mother will tolerate? This is justice. Actually the mantra is there, that "Goat, you are sacrificing your life. You get immediately chance of human being." That is his profit. He would have evolved himself in so many lives and then get a human life. But because he's sacrificing his life before Mother, he gets immediately an lift to become a human man. And the human, because he becomes, he has got the right to cut the throat of the man who sacrificed him. This is the mantra. So if you take this risk, do that because how to become a goat, how to become a man, that is in the hands of Mother. That is not in your hand. So Mother, if she gives lift to the goat to become a man and if she degrades you to become a goat, that is in the Mother's hand. You cannot check it. Prakrteh kriyama... Mother is just to everyone. "All right, this man is cutting your throat. You just become human being and cut his throat. I shall make him a goat." How you can say, "No"? Can you say? And Mother is all-powerful. Then you take the risk. And why Mother will make injustice? The poor goat, you shall cut the throat, and you remain human being, Mother's pet son? What is this logic? She is Mother means she is equal to every son. The goat is also her son; you are also her son. So you are taking advantage of this poor goat, and now he'll get this advantage. You, you become a goat. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani. When you are being made into a goat, you cannot check it. That is in the hand of mother. Then what is your answer? Will you take that risk?
Bhavananda: Not if I'm intelligent.
Prabhupada: (chuckling) Therefore anyone who worships the other demigod, they are hrta-jnanah, there is no sense.
Prabhupada: Less intelligent. Yanti deva-vrata devan. You will remain within this material world. That is Mother's kingdom. This external world is controlled by the Mother Durga. She's in charge of this material world. So if you become a perfect devotee of Mother, you get all good chances in this material world but not eternal life. Within this material world wherever you go everything is limited, either you become Indra or Brahma, or ant. Just like President Nixon, so long he was President he was doing everything as he liked, and now he's an ordinary man, (indistinct). This is Mother's kingdom. Is that Mr. Nixon the same Nixon when he was President? But same Nixon is he, but the atmosphere and the circumstance is the same? Does he not realize it? "How I was enjoying as President and what is my position. Everyone kicks on my face." Is that very good position? Therefore alpa. Antavat tu phalam tesam tad bhavaty alpa-medhasam. Antavat tu phalam. This position ultimately will be ended. Therefore less intelligent class are after this, not very intelligent men. What is time?
Hari-sauri: Twenty to eleven. (end)
Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.
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