Our Original Relationship With Krishna: A Follow-Up
BY: BHAKTA ERIC JOHANSON
Feb 21, MOAB, UTAH (SUN) — Edited by Kailasa Candra dasa.
When there is a dispute within Krishna conscious circles, we should look for a spiritual authority who can resolve it. We Are All Originally Krishna Conscious Entities was not so much about settling the origination controversy as it was about determining final source of authority. The convictions of the opposite party are firmly held and almost certainly will not change. Therefore, my emphasis was on who is competent to give final judgment. The conclusion must be that our most recent sampradaya-acharya, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, is that final arbiter. This is validated quite nicely by Mahesh Raja prabhu:
In his article, Mahesh Raja contra-indicates interpretations of alleged writings from previous acaryas. These writings notwithstanding, Srila Prabhupada is the most recent maha-bhagavat of our Gaudiya Vaishnava parampara. Therefore, he remains the representative of all those previous acharyas, unless and until another maha-bhagavata in our line clearly manifests. Prabhupada’s conclusions on all points of siddhanta are non-different from the disciplic succession. In other words, if anyone can definitively tell us what the conclusion of the previous acaryas was, it is His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.
In this article, all emphases have been added.
Sections from two purports by His Divine Grace have been cited by the “no-fall” camp, and these are listed below. They lend apparent credibility to “no-fall”:
"...the statement that a servant of the Lord could fall from Vaikuntha seems unbelievable."
and . . .
"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode."
Srimad Bhagavatam 7.1.35 and 3.16.26, purports
If there were no other remarks or writings on this topic by His Divine Grace, this could be considered strong evidence. There are, however, many other purports and recorded conversations that lend credibility to a different siddhanta, namely that the conditioned souls were all originally residents of the spiritual sky:
"As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly, we were with Krishna in His lila or sport, but this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration. Therefore, many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time, it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned . . . Unless one develops full devotional service to Krishna, he goes up only to brahma-sayujya but falls down. After millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krishna consciousness, this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming. Because he falls down from brahma sayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that, before that even, he was with Krishna." THE ORIGIN OF THE JIVA: BRAHMAJYOTI OR KRISHNA LILA? Australian conversation with Srila Prabhupada Transcribed as Nectar of the Month, BBT Report, January, 1982. Quoted in our article Before That Even by Kailasa Candra dasa:
“Of course, everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being. . . has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi-perfection of one’s constitutional position… We have an intimate relationship with the Lord, and because we are all qualitatively one. ...the whole purpose of Bhagavad-gita is to revive our sanatana occupation, or sanatana dharma, which is the eternal occupation of the living entity... The Lord descends to reclaim all of these fallen, conditioned souls to call them back to the sanatana eternal sky so that the sanatana living entities may regain their eternal sanatana positions of eternal association with the Lord.”
Bhagavad-gita, Introduction."
We can resolve the apparently irreconcilable positions, because, fortunately, there are several recorded conversations and purports where Srila Prabhupada was directly asked this question about origination:
Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back.
Prabhupada: No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, ‘Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,’ I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become.”
Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108 (San Francisco, February 18, 1967)
Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: Fall down?
Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice," "Yes," Krsna says, "yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?”
Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 (Los Angeles)
Translator: The question is: did we fall in this material world to find some highest pleasure? His question is: did we fall in the material world to experience something which is higher?
Prabhupada: I do not follow.
Yogesvara: I think his question is the husband will leave the wife because he is dissatisfied. But if our love for Krsna originally is perfect why should we have left?
Prabhupada: YOU HAVE LEFT... Just like somebody is daily eating puris and halava, and he wants to eat also puffed rice. So that tendency is there. That is also a side of enjoyment. ‘I am eating daily this, let me eat this.’ What is the difficulty? That tendency is there. That is also enjoyment. After all, we are hankering after enjoyment, anandamayo 'bhyasat. So, different taste we desire, that, "Let me taste this, let me taste that, let me taste that." So the real basic principle is enjoyment, sense enjoyment. That's all."
Bhagavada-gita Lecture August 5, 1976 (Paris)
These and many other quotes provide direct answers to the question. The “no-fall” party, to my experience, has never confronted, examined, or explained all of these evidences. These direct answers to the origination controversy firmly establish Srila Prabhupada’s absolute opinion, and this opinion was presented by His Divine Grace regularly in his lectures, conversations, and purports. The motto for his magazine was “Back to Godhead,” indicating that we have already been there and that his guidance was going to return us there.
Any sincere follower of Srila Prabhupada will accept his statements as conclusive. If someone cannot accept, then he either has an opinion of his own or is under the influence of some competing authority. More often than not, in this second instance, that authority turns out to be someone connected to one of Srila Prabhupada’s godbrothers. To already be predisposed to certain conclusions, and then selectively go through Srila Prabhupada’s writings and recordings in order to support that predisposition, does not look well for a devotee. Such activity is more in the spirit of the person who only wants the end of the chicken that gives eggs--and not the one that has to be fed.
Pundarikaksa devi dasi, in one of her recent postings, uses a remark attributed to Srila Bhaktivinoda Takura and appears to selectively reject a self-evident quote from Srila Prabhupada cited by Mahesh Raja. Such counter-propaganda is effectively undermining Prabhupada’s Krishna consciousness movement, established during the manifest presence of His Divine Grace. The Prabhupada quote was self-evident and firmly established the origin of the living entity as being in the spiritual world.
Although superficial blame for this malady can be laid at the feet of his inimical godbrothers, real fault lies with the initial faithlessness of the eleven so-called zonal acaryas. It was their blind ambition that caused eventual complete disregard for Srila Prabhupada’s instructions regarding succession. That opened the door for the pernicious influence of Prabhupada’s godbrothers, many of whom were inimical to him, in all of these other areas of potential controversy. In essence, the zonals did not really believe the maha-bhagavat, thinking their own self-serving concoctions superior. Some devotees, dealt with severely by the zonals, risked pointing this defect out to them. Ironically, some of these leading secretaries are still honored and accepted as gurus in a movement that now can only be called their own.
The continuing controversy
Condescending and brow-beating rhetoric--in the form of blanket accusations of mayavada--is not in the spirit of genuine Vaishnava/brahminical debate. If someone is going to accuse his opponent of bringing in conclusions tainted with mayavada, he should be prepared to demonstrate, with logic and shastra and Prabhupada reference, how this is so. Otherwise, it turns into argumentum-ad-hominem, and that can always lead to vaishnavaparadha.
Kundali prabhu’s whitepaper, entitled Not Even Leaves Fall From Vaikuntha, was mentioned in some recent postings. Tendered as a critique of my recent article, Part Two of Purujit prabhu’s recent postings offered up quotes attributed to Jaiva Dharma:
“Maha-Vishnu, an incarnation of Sankarshana, becoming situated in the jiva-shakti as Supersoul, manifests the living entities of the material world. All these jivas (coming from Maha-Vishnu) are disposed to maya. Until they attain the shelter of the pleasure potency (hladini shakti) of the chit world, by the mercy of the Lord, they are prone to be defeated by maya. The unlimited conditioned jivas being defeated by maya remain under the influence of her three modes. Therefore the principle is that only the jiva-shakti manifests jivas and not the chit-shakti.” Jaiva Dharma, Chapter 15
“The atomic conscious jivas, who come out like rays from Maha-Vishnu’s glance at maya, are also uncountable. Being in proximity to maya, these jivas see the variegatedness of maya. They have all the characteristics of the ordinary jivas as described before, yet because of their atomic nature they sometimes glance marginally towards the spiritual creation and sometimes towards the material creation. In this marginal state, the jiva is weak, because he has not yet attained spiritual power by the mercy of the worshipable Lord. Out of these unlimited jivas, the ones who desire to enjoy maya remain eternally bound by maya, because of being attached to sense enjoyment. Those who engage in devotional service to the Lord go to the spiritual world getting the strength of the chit-shakti by the mercy of the Lord.”
Jaiva Dharma, Chapter 16
Let us always remember that these English translations of Bengali texts are a bit suspect. Even one word mistranslated could make a very great difference in interpretation. Various translations by pandits, whose level of realization has not been confirmed by our sampradaya-acharya, have the potential to create problems. We do not have that problem with Srila Prabhupada (except for changes to his books, but that’s beyond the scope of this article).
The quotes allegedly translated from Jaiva Dharma only indicate that the “the living entities of the material world” (already in the material atmosphere) are manifest from Maha Vishnu. That does not necessarily include all the living entities. In regard to the quote attributed to Jaiva Dharma from Chapter 16, there is no prohibition in it that there are not other Krishna conscious jivas distinct from those “who come out like rays from Maha-Vishnu’s glance at maya.” Although Kundali prabhu draws absolute conclusions from Jaiva Dharma, a more discriminating analysis casts some doubt on the “no-fall” proposition.
In articles about this topic on our Vaishnava Foundation website, Kailasa Candra prabhu makes clear, according to the writings of Srila Prabhupada, that the real origin of the living entities cannot be an anaesthetized, non-Krishna conscious state within Maha Vishnu. That the conditioned souls are all manifest from Maha Vishnu is verified also by Srila Prabhupada. But is this their ultimate origin?
"As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly, we were with Krishna in His lila or sport, but this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration. Therefore, many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time, it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned . . . Unless one develops full devotional service to Krishna, he goes up only to brahma-sayujya but falls down. After millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krishna consciousness, this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming. Because he falls down from brahma sayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that, before that even, he was with Krishna." THE ORIGIN OF THE JIVA: BRAHMAJYOTI OR KRISHNA LILA? Australian conversation with Srila Prabhupada Transcribed as Nectar of the Month, BBT Report, January, 1982. Quoted in our article Before That Even by Kailasa Candra dasa
"Jiva is also described as sanatana, eternal, and the Lord is also described as sanatana in the Eleventh Chapter. We have an intimate relationship with the Lord . . . the whole purpose of Bhagavad-gita is to revive our sanatana occupation, or sanatana-dharma, which is the eternal occupation of the living entity . . . the Lord descends to reclaim all of these fallen, conditioned souls to call them back to the sanatana eternal sky so that the sanatana living entities may regain their eternal sanatana positions in eternal association with the Lord."
Bhagavad-gita, Introduction
Kailasa Candra prabhu makes clear that it is illogical for anyone to “revive” devotional consciousness if he never originally experienced it (prior to some kind of anaesthetized state). I am here summarizing, with his permission, some of those logical and shastric understandings from his articles:
When the followers of “no-fall” are confronted with the teaching that the jiva was originally in the spiritual world, they find it distasteful. They have the same reaction when told that the jiva can eternally either properly or improperly use his free will. They superficially think that this teaching is mayavada, because it apparently implicates the spiritual world with illusion--in the context of a conclusion (vada) that Krishna's world contains illusion (maya).
This is a misunderstanding. Free will is intrinsic to the jiva anywhere, and he can eternally act upon it. Prabhupada clearly says this. The jiva soul’s free will always is present. Free will has no meaning outside of the possibility of it being misused at any time. Only if free will was made null and void could the living entity never fall from the spiritual world. Spiritual freedom is attained and maintained by proper use of free will. Freedom to move anywhere and everywhere within the spiritual sky, and to associate in any way he likes with the other liberated personalities there, is not in and of itself the same thing as free will.
Animals and lower entities have free will covered. Humans, especially in this age, degraded to the point of animal life, have practically lost their free will. All genuine human beings are endowed with free will, and all living entities more advanced than humans have free will.
Srila Prabhupada points to misuse of free will in the abovementioned quote from the Cheviot Hills morning walk. He says that it is the cause of the jiva’s falldown. The followers of “no fall,” on the other hand, claim that free will cannot cause a living entity to fall from the spiritual world; free will is only relevant for someone already in the material sphere. According to this mode, even if someone wanted to come to the material atmosphere from the spiritual world, Krishna affords no intrinsic accommodation for that. This idea is not supported by Srila Prabhupada:
Bhaktijana: When the souls that were never conditioned at all..., do they also have the independence?
Prabhupada: Yes, but they have not misused. They know that "I am meant for Krsna’s service," and they are happy in Krsna’s service.
Bhaktijana: Could they ever misuse it?
Prabhupada: Yes, they can misuse it also. That power is there.
Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108 (San Francisco, February 18, 1967)
Brahmananda: Why doesn't God force me to surrender?
Prabhupada: No. That Krsna is not a nonsense like you.Because Krsna has given you little freedom He does not want to touch it. That is Krsna. What He gives, He never takes it back. It is not a nonsensical award that, "I give you sometimes; then I take it away." Krsna does not do such. He has given you little freedom, so you can use it. Yathecchasi tatha kuru Krsna says in the Bhagavad Gita, "Whatever you like, you do." That freedom is taken by nature. You are human being. If you do not engage yourself in Krsna consciousness, then nature will withdraw this privilege and you'll become a dog. Krsna does not take, but His agent, maya, will take it away. Just like the police is the agent of the king or the government. The government does not care what you are doing. But if you do something criminal the police will punish you.
Morning Walk, September 13, 1975, Vrndavana, India
Of course, there is a verse in the Bhagavad Gita that appears to buttress the “no-fall” siddhanta:
“That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world.”
Bhagavad Gita 15.6
Srila Prabhupada further elaborates on this important verse:
Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back.
Prabhupada: No! There is possibility. . .
Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108 San Francisco, February 18, 1967
As Srila Prabhupada writes, once one has experienced the misery of the material world, he keeps perfect intelligence to not misuse his free will again. It is these experienced souls who will never return or fall from Vaikuntha.
Acyutananda: .....But in the Gita, it says, "Once coming there, he never returns."
Prabhupada: But if he likes, he can return.
Acyutananda: He can return.
Prabhupada: That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown.
Morning Walk, February 19, 1976, Mayapura
There have been assertions by the “no fall” camp that origination from the spiritual world is not supported in Vedic scriptures. From the following lecture, Srila Prabhupada again cites the verse from Prema Vivarta explaining the cause of the living entities original fall to the material world:
Acyutananda:What is the first birth? What is the cause of the first birth?
Prabhupada: Yes. That is stated in the Prema Vivarta:
krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare
nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare
As soon as... We are eternal servant of Krsna. As soon as we want to become master, that is the beginning of our first birth in the material world. We have got independence. Because, Krsna says, mamaivamso jiva bhutah-we are part and parcel of Krsna-so Krsna has got full independence, but we are minute. Therefore, we have got minute independence. Our business is to serve Krsna, but as soon as we give up this idea, we want to become master. That is the beginning of our material birth.
Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.2 Hyderabad, April 11, 1975
To renovate something means to restore it to its original status. In that context, there is this verse from the Srimad-Bhagavatam:
“Only the purified soul can attain the perfection of associating with the Personality of Godhead in complete bliss and satisfaction in his constitutional state. Whoever is able to renovate such devotional perfection is never again attracted by this material world, and he never returns.”
Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.2.31
Support for the idea of origin in the spiritual world has also been attributed to an English translation of Prema-pradipa by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur, as well as an English translation of Sri Caitanya’s Teachings by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Prabhupada:
“However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas.”
Prema-pradipa, p. 83
“It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature. . .
” Sri Caitanya's Teachings, page 323.
The previous acaryas were not recorded on modern technological equipment; all we have are English translations of their writings. In an apparent attempt to minimize some of Srila Prabhupada’s statements, various adherents of “no fall” minimize Srila Prabhupada’s conversations and lectures, alleging that they do not carry the same weight as his books or the Vedic shastras. It is not that a pure devotee somehow changes his conclusions from one platform or medium to another; such thinking is actually offensive. Sri Krishna has sent his pure devotee to deliver us and rectify our mistaken beliefs. He is competent to give final judgment on this issue of the origination of the jiva.
In his article Jiva's "Fall", Mathuramandala Das Brahmachari believes that Srila Prabhupada, as a ruse, only claimed that souls originated in the spiritual world. In the words of Brahmachari, that conception was “easier for the laymen to grasp.” Although this does not go as far as the more aggressive “no-fall” advocates (who assert that Srila Prabhupada deliberately misled his Jewish and Christian followers), it has the same implication. The “layman” designation makes a distinction between them (ordinary devotees) and those above and beyond them, implying that Srila Prabhupada maintained these same designations. These kinds of projections onto the vision, intention, and mood of His Divine Grace gravitate toward gurvaparadha.
Srila Prabhupada himself was the best Christian, and, as an example of this, he quotes a very famous Christian writer, namely Milton:
“By the grace of God, we have complete freedom. Because the Lord is kind to us, we can live anywhere -- either in the spiritual sky or in the material sky, upon whichever planet we desire. However, misuse of this freedom causes one to fall down into the material world and suffer the threefold miseries of conditioned life. The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul's choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice, the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead.”
Caitanya-caritamrita, Adi Lila 5.22, Purport
Following in the footsteps of His Divine Grace, we have humbly pointed out that the living entity may have subsequently fallen--more than just once--from the brahmajyoti. But, before that even, he was personally with the Lord in a particular eternal relationship. We can’t know when or how the living entity had that original relationship covered over, so there’s no use perpetually arguing on this point. The vada of the “no-fall” school does not appear to actually be representative of our Gaudiya Vaishnava disciplic succession--not according to the siddhanta promulgated by Srila Prabhupada. Let us all repeatedly bow to his lotus feet and accept him as competent to give final judgment on this controversial issue.
“Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence--as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more--and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease.” Letter to Upendra, 10-27-69
OM TAT SAT
