Govinda dasi on Facebook

BY: SUN STAFF

Jan 24, 2016 — CANADA (SUN) —

Following a Facebook cross-posting of a review on the book Women: Masters or Mothers? by Phalini devi dasi, a conversation unfolded in which Govinda dasi (ACBSP) demonstrated her personal position on feminism in ISKCON, etc. Excerpts from that Facebook thread follow:

Women: Masters or Mothers? A Review
(by Phalini devi dasi ACBSP)

Women: Masters or Mothers? called by the author a "tract," is much more than just a religious pamphlet. It is a deep and thoroughly cogent treatise on the current social anomalies within ISKCON (mirroring the social aberrations of the Western world) and how these incongruities relate to and have arisen due to our members remaining too much influenced by Western society.

His Holiness Bhakti Vikasa Swami is not concerned with how he will be viewed for stating facts. He speaks courageously and truthfully about the unquestionable presence and pernicious effects of feminism within ISKCON, the need for early marriage, the practicality of polygamy, the importance of shyness among women and their need for protection, the fact that Srila Prabhupada never appointed women as temple presidents or GBC members, the dangers of co-education and worldly careers for women, and other such hush-hush, hot topics that may arouse angry arguments but that nonetheless need to be addressed, discussed, and adopted in our society as part of fulfilling the other 50% of Srila Prabhupada's mission: daiva-varnasrama-dharma.

Srila Prabhupada did not want us to emulate the American (aka Western) way of life. He came to improve it, to change it, to replace American culture with Vedic culture. He wanted us to transcend the American way of life and to realize that we don't belong in this world. Srila Prabhupada states, "I am not in the world...just like I am in America...I am not adopting any ways of life as the Americans do. Not only myself, all my disciples who are following me, they are also not Americans. They're different from American behavior, American way of life. I don't accept any consciousness of America. And I teach my disciples also to take to that consciousness...so if you take to Krsna consciousness and you remain in Krsna consciousness, you don't belong to this world." (Bg Lecture, LA, December 16, 1968)

Though Maharaja uses not only quotes from Srila Prabhupada's teachings, but from other sources as well, clearly, his objective is to clarify, adhere to and promote the teachings and purpose of our founder-acarya Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada predicted that if ISKCON were to fall apart, it would be due to internal strife tearing our society apart from within. We have already seen in our short fifty years as a fledgling movement the beginnings of internal crumbling. This book is a wake-up call for those of us who do not want to see the further disintegration of ISKCON. If such sensibly presented essays as Women: Masters or Mothers? are not carefully read and given serious consideration by the deep thinkers of our ISKCON Society, we may see the demise of our own institution within our very lifetimes.

There have been objections voiced by devotees who find the book's cover unappealing or who find some fault with Maharaja for discussing standards of cleanliness for his female disciples during their menses. I appeal to the leaders of our movement, Please read this book with a humble, open heart and don't make the mistake of shooting the messenger! His Holiness Bhakti Vikasa Swami is simply representing Srila Prabhupada's stance and teachings on delicate subjects which some would prefer to ignore and discredit as irrelevant due to their over-sympathizing with American or Western ways of life.

Women: Masters or Mothers? offers powerful solutions to the problems we face as a spiritual institution. It is a must-read for every member of our ISKCON Society. If we simply ignore this book as irrelevant or fanatical, our tendency as a religious movement will no doubt be to adopt the spirit of modernism, thus inviting calamity upon our spiritual progress, both individually and collectively. If we thus loosen our standards and degrade from being the powerful, pure and dynamic force that Srila Prabhupada groomed us to be, how can ISKCON survive?

Purity is the force that keeps our movement thriving and growing. Impurity, which can be traced to deeply rooted attachment and adherence to Western social behaviors, is an opposing force that can lead us to degradation.

Srila Prabhupada warned that we should keep ourselves free from the impurities of materialistic culture. If we give in to the cultural norms of a degraded, failing society, what will be ISKCON's destiny? William Ralph Inge's chilling admonition can be taken a step further to read, "That religion which marries the spirit of today will be a widow tomorrow."

Phalini devi dasi (ACBSP)

COMMENTS:

Govinda Dasi Dear Phalini Prabhu, your sentiments are very nicely presented and I am sure you are a very sincere devotee. However, you may not have spent much time with Srila Prabhupada, as you appear to be very young from your picture, and wonder if you actually had the opportunity to really travel with and spend time with Srila Prabhupada. Since I met him in 1967, just as he came to San Francisco, and spent over 10 years studying with him, and also traveled with Srila Prabhupada as his servant, secretary and cook, along with my husband, I had much time to really hear from him and also imbibe his teachings in this regard. Also, I was close friends with my dear Godsisters Arundhuti, Palika, Madri, as well as our dear Yamuna devi, whose voice rings out every morning during the greeting of the Deities, in every Iskcon center in the world. (even though later there were similar sanyasi objections to "her" singing, and even attempts to stop it, all of which were firmly prevented by Srila Prabhupada himself)
Like • Reply • 14 • 14 December 2015 at 14:15 • Edited

Govinda Dasi I am neither a feminist or a womens libber, and factually, those concepts were barely begun in the early days of 1967, 1968, and so on. All this "American culture" stuff came later, as a result of so many women and children being abandoned and neglected by the male members of American society. Girls were no longer encouraged to marry and be housewives, simply because they saw the fate of their mothers--many of whom were on welfare and struggling to raise their children. Thus the American feminism was born. Young girls are now encouraged to go to medical school, law school, engineering school, etc.for the simple reason that if they depend upon an American man to support them, they will very likely end up struggling to raise their children on welfare when the father abandons or divorces them. Many of the "career mothers" are such simply because they had to find a way of livelihood due to necessity, not necessarily choice.
Like • Reply • 13 • 14 December 2015 at 14:21

Herbert Grundboeck most of the divorces are started from the women. They leave on their own. Also feminnist movement is a global agenda to dissolve the structure of the family
Like • Reply • 2 • 14 December 2015 at 17:44

Remuna Dasi Respected mataji, as I can see divorcing is part of "american way of life"...devotees who didn't follow Srila Prabhupada's instructions regarding Vedic culture, divorced. Book Women, masters or mothers speaks about the Vedic culture and it's benefits...all supported by Srila Prabhupada's quotes.
Like • Reply • 2 • 14 December 2015 at 19:24

Braja Sorensen Herbert Grundboeck If you say "most of the divorces are started from the women," then you are speaking against the very first chapter of the Gita, which says the opposite.
Like • Reply • 16 December 2015 at 06:39

Nikita Panzerata Braja Sorensen Fact is that 70% of divorces are initiated by women. Those are the facts. Look them up. And it is "no fault divorce" the husband doesn't have to have any fault, he is responsicible, works hard, etc is not a gambler, adulterer alchoholic etc. She just woke one day and decides "we have grown apart" and then blam divorces him takes the house, have his pay and retirement and then he has to support her and her new boy friend and only get to see the kids 4 days a month if she lets him.
Like • Reply • 1 • 18 December 2015 at 09:37 • Edited

Nikita Panzerata Braja Sorensen And in 4th canto it describes that because of her womanly weakness Sati left the perfect faultless husband Lord Siva. In the purport which you can look up SP explains that most divorces are caused by women.
Like • Reply • 1 • 18 December 2015 at 09:49

Nikita Panzerata Braja Sorensen "Woman reporter: What happens when women are not subordinate to men?

Prabhupada: Then there is disruption. There is disruption, social disruption. If the woman does not become subordinate to man, then there is social disruption. Therefore, in the western countries there are so many divorce cases because the woman does not agree to become subordinate to man.
That is the cause."

Television Interview–July 9, 1975, Chicago
Like • Reply • 2 • 18 December 2015 at 09:49

Nikita Panzerata Govinda Dasi said "I am neither a feminist or a womens libber" and I say if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it must be a duck.
Like • Reply • 18 December 2015 at 19:49

Govinda Dasi Perhaps the very same thing could be said of Iskcon mothers. Many were similarly abandoned or divorced, and as such, you see that the children were raised by the mothers and very few American devotee children had fathers at home, and some never even saw their fathers. That is a very common thing in America, that is probably not true elsewhere.
Like • Reply • 11 • 14 December 2015 at 14:23

Nipuna Devi Dasi That's so true. Hardly any of us first generation of devotee children knew our fathers or had them around
Like • Reply • 1 • 14 December 2015 at 16:25

Remuna Dasi Again, the book propagates protection of women and culture where she is treated respectfully. It also teaches women how to behave.
Like • Reply • 3 • 14 December 2015 at 19:27

Braja Sorensen Yes, but who's teaching the men? As Tamal Krishna Goswami often said, "If you want Sita, first become Rama." So where are all the Rama-like men? You foolishly have the philosophy backwards
Like • Reply • 2 • 16 December 2015 at 06:39

Nikita Panzerata Govinda Dasi I just heard a conversation where TKG and SP are talking and SP plainly said that many unmarried women came to ISKCON with illegitimate children. In other words they had been promiscuous and now had to suffer the consequence. It was their own responsibility, not someone else's fault. But you of course want to put the blame on the men. Who forced those women to have sex? Was a gun put to their heads like what happened to so many poor Bosnian women during that dirty Balkans war? No. They did it of their own free will.
Like • Reply • 18 December 2015 at 19:56 • Edited

Govinda Dasi However, since this post is more about Srila Prabhupada's loving perspective and teachings, perhaps I should clarify a few misconceptions that have become popular. One such misconception is that Srila Prabhupada never put any women on the GBC. This is simply not true. It is something that has been promoted by some of the male members of our Iskcon society. The fact is, (and since I was there to be eye witness to this) Srila Prabhupada wanted 2 women on the original GBC, to handle matters related to the women and to the children. This was nixed early on by some of the anti-women sexually disturbed sanyasis of that time (no names needed, they are no longer amongst us). Some of these same sanyasis also tried to prevent women from coming into the temple room, from giving classes, from singing in kirtan (as in the case of Yamuna devi) and so on. Srila Prabhupada blocked these young men repeatedly and in some cases he even told them to go to the forest if they were so disturbed, or sent them to foreign places like China or India).
Like • Reply • 16 • 14 December 2015 at 14:29

Hanuman Das Respectful mataji, can you please elaborate on your claim, you said that fact that "Srila Prabhupada never put any woman on the GBC" is misconception. Can you give the year and the name of the mataji that he put on the GBC while he was present on this planet. If you can't provide such info, then this claim is correct. We may discuss what Srila Prabhupada "wanted" or "would do but couldn't", but fact remains the he could do whatever he wanted, because he was founder-acarya and sole leader of ISKCON from 1967 to 1977. I suggest we stick to the core facts and Srila Prabhupada's teachings which he expresses clearly in his books, lectures and letters.
Like • Reply • 4 • 14 December 2015 at 16:01

Nipuna Devi Dasi I suggest you read what this most senior devotee has to say about the years she spent in daily association with Srila Prabhupada and meditate on her words and give them the respect they are due without challenging them.
Like • Reply • 5 • 14 December 2015 at 16:21

Govinda Dasi Yes, in his original list of gbc members, he added Yamuna devi and myself, in order that there would be ladies to address the issues of women and children. It was a practical matter. There was no conception of anything more. This was, however, strongly objected to by Tamal Krishna M., who was very determined to remove women from the temple as well as from Iskcon, due to his own youthful disturbances. Srila Prabhupada depended heavily upon Tamal, however,. as he was a great manager and did much service. So he often allowed him to do things such as this. There was finally a breaking point however, and at that time, Srila Prabhupada sent him to China. Tamal later became more mature and treated his female disciples with respect, and even encouraged them to have college careers, etc., as he grew in wisdom and maturity, and saw the practical situation. Unfortunately, the gbc issue remained as an all male institution, until now, and the women and children had no one to turn to for help. In the matter of the child molestations, and the later court cases etc., much could have been avoided had the young men simply done what Srila Prabhupada wanted as a practical measure--that is, have a couple of ladies on the management board to address the personal issues of children and women. Not following that original instruction has cost Iskcon a lot of money, as well as a horrible reputation in the world. Abused women and children had no one to turn to--Rupanuga Prabhu, the first and original man on the gbc as well as the bbt, has often said that in his many years of being a very conscientious gbc man, not one woman or child ever came to him and complained. Just see, the wisdom of Srila Prabhupada, he could foresee this, and that is his reasoning. Yet, as we all know, so much of what he taught was suppressed or twisted by the young and ambitious men who had little understanding of practical matters. That is due to youth and immaturity only, as well as being raised in a culture like America.
Like • Reply • 11 • 14 December 2015 at 16:25

Paul Howard In the recent class by HH Bhakti Vikas Swami, he said Śrīla Prabhupāda proposed having two women on the GBC, but each with half a vote. Do you agree that is true?

You may want to to listen to the lecture, especially if you're the "Govindasi" he mentioned several times in it, as I presume.
http://bvks.com/.../Answering%20Objections%20to%20the...

Nikita Panzerata Please forgive me mataji if I am less than convinced of your historical narrative. As Jaya Advaita Swami said about you "She was (and is) such a nice example of a devoted disciple! But as for Govinda Dasi the historian, well…" You make it out as if certain male disciple could wrap Srila Prabhupada around their finger. Not true. No one could do that to Srila Prabhupada. One of the unnamed persons who you later on mention was involved in a dispute between his travelling bus party and grhastas. Was he able to sway Prabhupada? No. Not one iota. In fact SP "exiled" him to China. And it is because of that exile that so many Chinese have been blessed. Basically I find you to be an unreliable narrator. Here is more from J Swami regarding Govinda Dasi the devotee vs Govinda Dasi the historian.

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-10/editorials6459.htm
Like • Reply • 18 December 2015 at 20:05 • Edited

Nipuna Devi Dasi He was successful in banishing women and children from the bus party - which my mother had a big part in starting
Like • Reply • 20 December 2015 at 20:30

Govinda Dasi Srila Prabhupada wanted a world wide movement that would enter into every culture and every continent of the planet, with the Holy Names. This was his first concern. Half the population of the world are male, and roughly half are female. He wanted all to become involved in the spreading of the glorious Samkirtan movement. (samkirtan meaning, in its original sanskrit "congregational chanting of the Holy Names). However this could be accomplished, Srila Prabhupada encouraged both male and female and even third gender disciples to preach and spread Krishna consciousness. These social conventions were and remain very secondary. To become so wrapped up in them is truly an unfortunate detour from our real work, which is spreading the teachings of Lord Chaitanya from whatever station in life that we find ourselves.
Like • Reply • 15 • 14 December 2015 at 14:34

Hanuman Das Respectful mataji, half of the population are women, therefore we need a lot of women devotees to preach to newcomers. Women definitely should preach to women. Who is better suited to preach to women? Brahmacaries or senior women?

Therefore I don't see your point, who is preventing women from preaching? Senior women should preach to junior women about Krishna consciousness and how to become chaste and shy.
Like • Reply • 4 • 14 December 2015 at 16:09

Citta Hari Dasa Hanumanji, what you suggest would be wonderful for reinforcing the bodily concept. Preachers preach. To whomever. Why gender should enter into it is beyond me.
Like • Reply • 4 • 14 December 2015 at 17:47 • Edited

Jyotirmaya Dasa @Citta Hari prabhu. Bhaktivinoda Thakura does not support your view as he writes in Sri Sri Godruma Kalpatavi, Part 2: "Women who are pure devotees can become travelling women salesmen for distributing the Holy Name amongst other women, but they cannot give the name to men. According to time, place, and circumstances, however, and with great care, a cautious and mature woman can distribute the name to men. Apart from elderly women or very young girls, men preachers should avoid discussions with other women".
Like • Reply • 4 • 14 December 2015 at 22:39

Govinda Dasi Yes, certainly this is the ideal, and very definitely the ideal in India. However, in the 1960s and 1970s, women preached to men on street corners, and many other places, and were responsible for making many devotees, both male as well as female. This is a different era. Why try to make it exactly like 15th century Bengal? It wont work. That is why Prabhupada studied our western culture and made modifications to spread the movement of Lord Chaitanya all over the world--from the West. From America, then the Raj nation of the world, and English is still the Raj language of the world. Even now in India, mothers go to great lengths to enroll their children in English speaking schools. Srila Prabhupada made the necessary adjustments to spread this movement. I was there, I saw what he did. Why are we trying to re-create 15th century India? It just makes us the laughing stock and does not inspire new devotees.
Like • Reply • 4 • 14 December 2015 at 22:51

Govinda Dasi And it suffocates Iskcon's preaching mood. Now, there is more preaching going on in the various yoga schools and ashrams, by only a handful of devotees, than is going on in our temples in the West! The Food for Life programs and other such programs are thriving, and the "Krishna House" concept of Kalakantha Prabhu is thriving. But these fossilized attitudes are not going to bear fruit in the west. If someone wants to indulge in them, then the best thing is to go to India, and travel and live in the Dhamas.
Like • Reply • 4 • 14 December 2015 at 22:53

Govinda Dasi Some of us are meant for preaching in the Western world; it is the need of the time. And it is what Srila Prabhupada called us here to do. Not to hide away in the tomes old India.
Like • Reply • 4 • 14 December 2015 at 22:55

Hanuman Das Citta Hari Dasa Preacher should tell what is greatest danger that Maya will use to bring us down. We all know what it is, therefore we preach about it.
Like • Reply • 1 • 15 December 2015 at 03:56

Citta Hari Dasa Hanuman, in my opinion that is not an effective preaching tactic at all. Attracting people with the beauty of Krsna and his lila is the first necessity. After that sambandha-jnana is required, part of which is the nature of maya, which, in a nutshell, is self-interest. The fact that maya uses the opposite sex to delude the jiva is not the central point; changing our identification with matter to identification with consciousness is.
Like • Reply • 1 • 15 December 2015 at 19:56

Hanuman Das Citta Hari Dasa, Why would people join this movement? Because Krishna is beautiful? That is how sahajiyas preach.

Besides, materialists find opposite sex much more beautiful and enjoyable than Krishna, because they can't see Him.

Srila Prabhupada preached first that we are not this body, that is ABC, we should raise above cat and dog level to become human beings, then we can talk about beauty of Krishna.
Like • Reply • 16 December 2015 at 14:04

Citta Hari Dasa I guess Prabhupada was a sahajiya then because he gave the 10th Canto of the Bhagavatam very early on in his Krsna book. Moreover, why would anyone bother to go to the trouble of "becoming a human being" unless something attractive (Krsna's beauty) was on the other side of that effort? If you joined because "Maya is bad" then you have missed the point entirely.
Like • Reply • 1 • 16 December 2015 at 20:00 • Edited

Hanuman Das Even before he introduced Krsna book, he introduced lectures so that devotees could actually learn how to discriminate reality from illusion for the benefit of all.
Like • Reply • 1 • 16 December 2015 at 20:43

Hanuman Das Basic philosophy is that we are not this body and that we have 4 problems, namely birth, death old age and disease which we can't solve on material level.
Like • Reply • 2 • 16 December 2015 at 20:46

Nikita Panzerata Citta Hari Dasa Falling from spiritual life is very easy by attraction to the opposite sex to minimize that you avoid contact with them. By preaching to same sex. So in married life man only needs to deal with wife and wife with husband and each preaches to the same sex to avoid fall down. But you think this enforces bodily concept of life. No it doesn't but it recognizes that we are on the bodily concept of life and how to deal with it. It is because of so many fall downs among senior devotees what to speak of juniors that the Rtvik movement started. Anyway it is your life preach to the ladies if you find them more attractive. But what I do if I meet a female is that I may preach to her at first but as quickly as possible I send her to my wife. If she is serious then she continues. But if she was only interested in me then she loses interest. And my wife does the same send men to me for preaching. That way at end of my life I will only have to detach from one woman not 1000's.
Like • Reply • 1 • 18 December 2015 at 09:57

Nikita Panzerata Govinda Dasi Prabhupada wanted to culturally conquer the world. How? By "American Money and Indian Culture." If you search vBase for that term you will find many hits. You notice he said "Indian culture" not 'American culture with Indian money.' Why is that? because India doesn't have money and America doesn't have culture. As the joke goes: "what is the difference between the USA and yogurt? Yogurt has culture."

The great misfortune is that many Western devotees including many of Srila Prabhupada's early disciples still cling to their Western "culture." Not all, just the ones who are derailing the movement and blocking Lord Caitanya's preaching mission.
Like • Reply • 18 December 2015 at 20:15

Nikita Panzerata Citta Hari Dasa You are a follower of Tripurari Swami, thus your input has zero credibility. You are not a wellwisher of ISKCON.
Like • Reply • 18 December 2015 at 23:15

Hanuman Das Citta Hari dasa was blocked, thanks for the tip.
Like • Reply • 19 December 2015 at 03:58

Govinda Dasi So far as my first hand DIRECT experience with living with and traveling with Srila Prabhupada, he encouraged all of us, both male and female, to find ways to spread Krishna consciousness. He was not so intent upon reestablishing an Indian or Vedic social order as he was upon spreading the Holy Names all over the world. It is certainly true that the formerly peaceful Vedic social orders are advantageous to spiritual cultivation, but living in the times that we now live in, there is little likelihood of reclaiming them. Srila Prabhupada's mood was much more one of "from wherever you are, preach and spread this movement of Lord Chaitanya, in whatever ways you can." Along this line, you can see that he encouraged all of his disciples to speak, to write, to lead kirtans, to print books, to travel to other countries, to go out on the streets with the message of Lord Chaitanya.
Like • Reply • 14 • 14 December 2015 at 14:40

Hanuman Das Respectful mataji, don't you think that demonstrating ideal behaviour of women is also a form of preaching? Also I think that demonstrating male devotees as Srila Prabhupada called them "perfect gentlemen" could also be called preaching.

Do you really think that by behaving like cats and dogs and having same divorce rates as karmi society, we will make a lasting impression on society?
Like • Reply • 1 • 14 December 2015 at 16:17

Govinda Dasi Certainly not. Our divorce rate is actually higher than the karmi divorce rate in America. But again, I think you are missing the point by focusing so much on these gender issues. Just as caste issues should be by nature, not birth, similarly, our talents and abilities determine what we do in our lives, in our service, more than our gender or our birth parents.
Like • Reply • 7 • 14 December 2015 at 16:33

Lola Devi Hanuman Das Why do you think that govinda dasi thinks we should behave like cats and dogs, She didn't say that.
Like • Reply • 2 • 14 December 2015 at 20:00

Krishna Kirti Das Dear Mother Govinda dasi, Hare Krishna, and PAMHO AGTSP.

Don't you think you are overstressing your personal experience with SP at the expense of his books? After all, many men who have had far more association with SP than you have misunderstood Srila Prabhupada and have promoted their misunderstanding in much the same way you are promoting your own idea of what SP said or wanted. They have said, "I was there with SP," or "I spent many years with SP". Why do you think the authority of your eye-witness testimony is any more reliable than theirs?
Like • Reply • 7 • 14 December 2015 at 21:07

Jyotirmaya Dasa Krishna Kirti Das, excellent observation...
Like • Reply • 3 • 14 December 2015 at 21:33

Govinda Dasi Perhaps because I am honest, I have no need for any position, nor any paycheck, nor any disciples. I simply tell it like it is.
Like • Reply • 7 • 14 December 2015 at 22:41

Govinda Dasi Or rather, like it was, when I traveled with Srila Prabhupada as his secretary and servant for well over a year, in the very beginning of his movement. At that time, there was no money, no fame, and no personal ambition had yet surfaced: there was only Swamiji, later in 1968, "Srila Prabhupada." Nothing to aspire to other than to simply love him and please him. Most of the senior devotees experienced this, and continue to experience it if they are free from personal ambitions.
Like • Reply • 4 • 14 December 2015 at 22:44

Krishna Kirti Das There are others who say the same about themselves--they have no need for a position and consider themselves honest, and have also travelled with and extensively associated with Srila Prabhupada, and in many cases have had much more of his association. And yet it would still be wise to take what they say, or believe, with at least a grain of salt, to put it mildly.

In other words, if despite them having all the same qualifications that you have, and more, their judgment in and of itself is still lacking.

What is it about your testimony that makes it free of error?
Like • Reply • 6 • 14 December 2015 at 23:29

Richard Oyntzen With due respect i add these words of Srila Prabhupada to the ongoing debate: "...Satsvarupa: When Ramananda Raya brought Varnasrama up, Lord Caitanya said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.
Prabhupada: He did not say not possible. Iha bahya. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.
Satsvarupa: But don't we do that also?
Prabhupada: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Krsna consciousness in everything. Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took sannyasa. He rejected completely material. Niskincana. But we are not going to be niskincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the world. That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the whole society. Our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane.
Hari-Sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's practical preaching He only induced them to chant.
Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.
Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.
Prabhupada: Yes. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitaù. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...
Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, ksatriyas. There must be regular education. So we are stressing on the point of education. You educate certain section as brahmana, certain section as ksatriya, certain section as vaisya. In that education we don't discriminate because he's coming of a sudra family. Take education. Be qualified.
Hari-Sauri: But in our community as it is, we are training up as Vaisnavas...
Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.
Hari-Sauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.
Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava, is not so easy. If to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so many fall down? It is not easy.
Hari-Sauri: Varnasrama system is beneficial. Where will we introduce the varnasrama system, then? Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members....Room conversation in Mayapura, February 14, 1977
Like • Reply • 7 • 15 December 2015 at 05:44

Richard Oyntzen Govinda Dasi Respected Mataji, As far as i have understood Srila Prabhupada was in the beginning very lenient and liberal, but with time passing He has become more and more strict and conservative. Also in all His teachings, via books and lectures, He uninterruptedly stresses ancient vedic principles of varnashrama dharma with the different roles of men and women in society. Not only stresses, but glorifies. Why would He do so if He was considering it anachronistic or not practical? From that it becomes obvious at least for me that He wanted it to become reality for the next 10000 years. i for my part am convinced that He would be very pleased to see us accomplishing His desire to establish varnashrama-dharma and as a society become living example of His teachings.
Like • Reply • 3 • 15 December 2015 at 06:04

Krishna Kirti Das Mother Govinda dasi, while you are an historic devotee who has done tremendous service for Srila Prabhupada, the way you understand and explain spiritual subjects is not the way that Srila Prabhupada told us to understand them. If we consider the way Srila Prabhupada himself explained them, whether in his books or lectures especially, he lead with shastra; only seldom did he quote his own Guru Maharaja. But most of us don't do that. In these debates we tend to either quote Srila Prabhupada at length or quote from our own experience of him and seldom quote from shastra. And there are many reasons why this leads to innumerable misunderstandings.

Consider the case when we happen to speak with devotees who do not belong to our sampradaya. For example, Sri Vaishnavas. When we discuss spiritual subjects with them, we don't quote Srila Prabhupada at length, we quote shastra at length and then may sometimes add the support of our acharya, Srla Prabhupada. Otherwise, they will not accept what we say, even if it is right. And we can't blame them for that. We would do the same if they started bashing us over the head with quotes from whomever their current acharya is.

So the first point here is that when we lead with shastra, then that evidence has wide authority, moreso than any other kind of evidence. Srila Prabhupada wanted to present the teachings of Lord Krishna in the most authoritative way, which is why he placed so much emphasis on shastra in his own presentations.

Therefore Srila Prabhupada says in his commentary on CC 20.352,

"Srila Narottama dasa Thakura says, sadhu-sastra-guru-vakya, cittete kariya aikya. One should accept a thing as genuine by studying the words of saintly people, the spiritual master and the sastra. The actual center is the sastra, the revealed scripture. If a spiritual master does not speak according to the revealed scripture, he is not to be accepted. Similarly, if a saintly person does not speak according to the sastra, he is not a saintly person. The sastra is the center for all."

Srila Prabhupada is making a very important philosophical point about the central place of shastra in this triad of authorities. It is what we should quote to begin with. Lord Krishna also says that austerity of speech consists in speaking words that are truthful, pleasing, and beneficial to others, and also in citing Vedic literature--anudvegam karam vakyam satyam priyam hitam ca yat svadhyaya bhyasanam caiva van mayam tapa ucyate. In his purport to this verse, Srila Prabhupada says, "The process of speaking in spiritual circles is to say something upheld by the scriptures. One should at once quote from scriptural authority to back up what he is saying." Here again Srila Prabhupada is making this same point about the centrality of shastra. He doesn't say, "at once quote your guru," he says quote shastra, and that this is the process of speaking in spiritual circles.

Of course, it is also pleasing, and necessary, to hear the words of the guru. Yet it is not at all pleasing to hear him quoted or represented in a way that is contrary to shastra. The person bhagavata lives his life in terms of the book bhagavata, and as we have already seen, the person bhagavata speaks according to shastra. So words and speech of the acharya must be in line with shastra. That is why he is an acharya in the first place. Therefore when we represent Srila Prabhupada, or any bona fide acharya, we should quote him in such a way as to augment our understanding of the shastra. That is why every single verse in the Bhagavad-gita As It Is, Srimad-Bhagavatam, and Sri Caitanya-caritamrity, a verse is typically followed by the word "purport". What Srila Prabhupada is doing is quoting shastra, and then explaining it. That should be our standard when we discuss these matters.

Another pont to consider is that ISKCON itself at this point in time is an agglomeration of different sampradayas. Different gurus in our midst, and others not formally gururs but influential in their own right (like your good self, for instance) emphasize different aspects of Srila Prabhupada's teachings and teach their realizations to their followers and disciples. And though there is a special closeness of consensus on innumerable practical and theological areas by virtue of being a member of Srila Prabhupada's grand institution, the differences that have emerged are significant enough to also cause unwanted (and usually unnecessary) dissension, such as what we are experiencing now on the topic of women's roles in society. Without considering actual incompatibilities (some views are plain wrong) and who is correct or incorrect for a moment, the differences arise in part because of the fact that we do have within ISKCON different sampradayas. We have many in fact. And because of these differences the common currency for discussion of spiritual topics should be shastra, as it is when we converse with other Vaishnavas who are in completely different sampradayas.

And finally, I would like to point out that the reason we should make shastra the center of our discourse is that there is often enough a difference between what Srila Prabhupada said and what we think he meant by what he said that the two are not equivalent. You yourself have the experience of having at one time objected to something Srila Prabhupada had asked to do (or specifically refrain from). Srila Prabhupada recanted, and then innumerable women henceforeward came to the wrong understanding. Citing shastra helps us better understand whether an utterance of Srila Prabhupada was, for example, a specific concession to a specific disciple or group of disciples, or limited only to a special time, place, and circumstance, or whether he gave an instruction that is generally applicable.

Considering all that has been said, and especially the shastra quoted, I request you to reconsider your method of divining Srila Prabhupada's intent and adopt a shastra-centered approach to presenting your ideas. The fashionable way of discussing spiritual topics now is not the way Srila Prabhupada wanted us to understand spiritual topics. And it is because we don't understand these things the way he told us to understand them that we get into so much unnecessary difficulty.

Your servant, Krishna-kirti das
Like • Reply • 5 • 15 December 2015 at 09:20

April Michelle White Krishna Kirti Das it's people like you that make me happy I am not in the movement any more. Putting down such a senior devotee to stroke your ego is so typical.
Like • Reply • 4 • 15 December 2015 at 20:46

Richard Oyntzen April Michelle White Dear Mataji i don't sense that Krishna-kirti Prabhu is stroking His ego. i am sure He tries to serve Srila Prabhupada to His best capacity and He also tries to convey His understanding in a polite way without being disrespectful or rude.
Like • Reply • 2 • 15 December 2015 at 22:00

Hanuman Das April Michelle White, this was strike below the belt. Krishna Kirti Das presented argument about quoting sastra, and you attacked him personally just because he doesn't agree with senior devotee. Do we all have to agree on everything? Then why having any discussion at all? What you are trying to preach is mayavada philosophy. One more such move and I will remove you from this discussion.
Like • Reply • 2 • 16 December 2015 at 14:24

Nikita Panzerata Govinda Dasi there is no proof that our divorce rate is higher than karmis. That is an urban legend.
Like • Reply • 18 December 2015 at 23:00 • Edited

Nikita Panzerata Govinda Dasi You say that SP was not intent on re-establishing Vedic culture. Srila Prabhupada disagrees with you.

Prabhupada: It is not my movement; it is the Vedic culture. Don't think... If you say "my movement," I have manufactured something. Not. This is the Vedic culture.

Interviewer (4): No, from the standpoint of this culture...

Prabhupada: Standpoint is that I am trying to revive the Vedic culture, that's all. That is my business. I am not manufacturing anything.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Press Interview at Muthilal Rao's House -- August 17, 1976, Hyderabad

When it comes to history of ISKCON I agree with Jayadvaita Swami, "Srila Prabhupada loved Govinda Dasi, and I always regard her with great affection and respect. But, again, she is dear to me as my godsister, not as a historian. "
Like • Reply • 2 • 18 December 2015 at 20:30 • Edited

Richard Oyntzen Very nice quote.Again the date is interesting.1976. After ten years in the west. Still Srila Prabhupada didn' t consider reviving vedic culture as "little likelihood of reclaiming them" as Mataji is suggesting.
Like • Reply • 1 • 18 December 2015 at 22:58

Govinda Dasi Srila Prabhupada encouraged Yamuna devi to preach in England and India, he inspired and encouraged his female devotees, as well as his male devotees. to preach in various countries of the world. This is how the movement spread so rapidly over the whole world. He sent me as well as my husband and others, to Hawaii to preach, and visited many times over the years, always encouraging me to speak, to write books, to write articles for his BTG, and so forth. None of this current stuff about females remaining only in the nursery was promoted by Srila Prabhupada. Of course, he wanted mothers to care for their children--that's a given. But he first and foremost wanted EVERYONE, irrespective of age, sex, gender or material situation, to find ways to creatively spread the movement of Lord Chaitanya. That was and is our first responsibility to our beloved Founder Acharya Srila Prabhupada.
Like • Reply • 15 • 14 December 2015 at 14:48

Hanuman Das Respectful maraji, women can be very powerful preachers if they work together with their husbands, as shown in the London example where Srila Prabhupada sent 3 grhasta couples to spread Krishna consciousness.

If you want to prove Srila Prabhupada wanted feminist preachers, can you give me example where Srila Prabhupada sent few women alone without any men to go to preach to some new country?
Like • Reply • 2 • 14 December 2015 at 16:21

Govinda Dasi Certainly it is preferable to have couples go to countries and preach. But when the men left (as most of them did) Srila Prabhupada did not discourage the women from continuing in their preaching service. Most of the temples in America were maintained by women pujaris, fund collectors and now also temple presidents, simply because the men went away for other pursuits. It was not ideal, not at all. Yet it is what it is. If you want examples, you can simply look at the lives of most of the senior devotees--Yamuna continued to preach after Gurudas left( she even won high awards on her Vedic cookbooks and led many others to Krishna consciousness), Malati has continued to preach after Shyamsundar left, there are numerous examples. Of course, it is ideal for the couples to stay together. But that rarely happened. It still rarely happens. When my husband left (and sold the temple and left with a young girl, with money, as is often the case) Srila Prabhupada gave me much kind attention and encouragement. He never told me to quit preaching or doing my service. We cannot base our lives on relationships that may or may not last, and in the long run, are always temporary. Our service is eternal. Our relationships arent.
Like • Reply • 11 • 14 December 2015 at 16:40

Nikita Panzerata And the movement stopped spreading in the West because many senior devotees both male and female were falling down into illicit sex because they were not following dVAD. That is why it is so import to establish dVAD so that the moevement can spread.
Like • Reply • 18 December 2015 at 23:18

Nikita Panzerata Govinda Dasi you said " But when the men left (as most of them did)" this is again a faulty narrative. According to teh Prabhupada disciple data base only 28% of his disciples were female the rest 72% were male. So from what you say then the vast majority of disciples left leaving a few women. Not true. And regarding SP encouraging women to continue in preaching service please provide a few verifiable examples because time and again you have proved that your narration of events doesn't match the history.
Like • Reply • 18 December 2015 at 23:23

Govinda Dasi To become so wrapped up in the male/female issues is somewhat of a distraction from our real work. He never encouraged this mood. Rather, he always stressed that we should not identify so strongly with our bodily situation, because it is so very temporary. (why identify with being male or female as our main identity when it is for a few years only? this was more his mood of teaching practically)
Like • Reply • 12 • 14 December 2015 at 14:51

Hanuman Das I would respectfully disagree, Srila Prabhupada was very clear on the role of women in vedic society, he even went so far to directly engage newspaper journalists on this subject.

He mentioned this gender roles subject on multiple occasions in core book of this movement, Bhagavad-gita as it, for example 1.40p, 9.32 and 16.7

Why would Srila Prabhupada do all of this if it is non-important distraction?
Like • Reply • 6 • 14 December 2015 at 16:32

Govinda Dasi If someone is asleep, it is possible to wake him. If he is pretending to be asleep, he cannot be awakened by anyone or anything.
Like • Reply • 3 • 15 December 2015 at 20:58

Hanuman Das grin emoticon I must be sleeping then, please don't wake me into your feminist reality, it prove itself to be horror in last 20-25 years.

I would rather sleep and dream about ideal society which Srila Prabhupada envisioned where women are submissive and chaste, and men are responsible gentlemen, and there is no free mixing between sexes.
Like • Reply • 2 • 16 December 2015 at 14:12

Govinda Dasi Dream on, maybe you will wake up in the Satva yuga where all this is actually possible in real life! Best wishes to you, dear Prabhu.
Like • Reply • 1 • 16 December 2015 at 21:57

Govinda Dasi But in the meantime, please also try not to create too much offenses to the many sincere devotees who have taken birth in female form, for they also have the same sincere desires that you have to become one of Krishna's servants. And Srila Prabhupada also loved and protected us all the best that he could, in the Kali Yuga circumstances that we all find ourselves in.
Like • Reply • 2 • 16 December 2015 at 21:58

Hanuman Das Srila Prabhupāda wouldn't say that we need to implement varnasrama if it was possible only in Satya yuga. Offences are hopefully not intended by any serious devotee.
Like • Reply • 1 • 17 December 2015 at 01:12

Nikita Panzerata Govinda Dasi You said "To become so wrapped up in the male/female issues is somewhat of a distraction from our real work. He never encouraged this mood." I have doubts about your narrative. SP books don't support you neither his recorded converations. It was because his disciples were contastly having sexual fall downs as noted in teh Feb 14, 1977 room conversation that SP insisted on dVAD.
Like • Reply • 18 December 2015 at 20:33

Govinda Dasi As I said, much of this current flap over "womens careers" is due to the anguish of so many broken families and children without fathers to support them. The American women have taken up careers in order to support their children, since most American families inevitably break up, leaving the children with the poor mothers to support them. Rather than existing on welfare as much of my generation of mothers did, now the girls in America prefer to establish themselves in careers to support themselves later on, if and when their marriages dissolve. This really has little to do with Srila Prabhupada's main focus--of course, he wanted marriages to stay together and he wanted the men to support their children. That is well known. But since that did not happen in most cases, the women simply found ways to find security elsewhere, in jobs and careers. Most did not choose this path; it was thrust upon them by circumstances.
Like • Reply • 11 • 14 December 2015 at 15:41 • Edited

Hanuman Das It's always a bad policy to fight one evil with another evil.

Obviously, if man is not responsible gentleman but a rascal, and leaves his wife and children, he should be severely sanctioned for that.

But then, if woman seeks carrier in ISKCON, becomes project leader, guru or temple president, that will inevitably lead to more free mixing between sexes, as a result of that, there will be more divorces, and more women who also want to have independent carrier. There is no end to this vicious circle.

We are not supposed to change Srila Prabhupada's teachings because of irresponsible rascals, rather we should punish them by never allowing them to give lecture again or participate in any kind of management in ISKCON. And also work actively to reduce free mixing and also preach against it. And if they bring their new "girlfriend" to the temple, they should be banned from entering temple.

Just asking women to be submissive and not sanctioning men for irresponsible behaviour will never work.

If we don't preach about dangers of feminism, which brings free mixing, then divorces will never stop. And thus, we don't produce gentlemen devotees, we produce vedic cats and dogs who chant Hare Krishna. And they will go back to Godhead only in their dreams.
Like • Reply • 3 • 15 December 2015 at 03:05

Richard Oyntzen Govinda dasi Nevertheless we should keep up the ideal standard of vedic dealings and educate our members accordingly, instead of adopting the loose lifestyle of western culture. Meanwhile of course we have to be practical. If no one takes care of a Mataji and she cares for Herself and Her children we should not blame Her for that. Rather we should work to establish such a society where they are protected the way Srila Prabhupada always wanted that women are protected.
Like • Reply • 2 • 15 December 2015 at 06:17

Śyāmānanda Dāsa Dear Mataji, Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

With due respect to you and your service to Srila Prabhupada, I just like to bring one point in this kind of analysis. I also read your long article on this stating how the bad behavior of men led to single mothers talking care of next generation and obviously the next generation feels more safe and secure with mothers because of that.

Most of this so called "next generation" brought up by single women believe more and more in free mixing, equality, feminism etc. That's where we are seeing divorces now. We see many young girls and even married women in temple and on harinam with their bellies open, backs opens and very obviously hair open. And dancing in very provocative ways. I can post some videos here if you want but I am sure you have seen them. I can also post many references of SP talking about how they should dress, especially covering their hair. He might have told you directly that when you were married.

So obviously those single mothers didn't teach their kids about what Srila prabhupada wrote in the books? Did they? And in turn they are responsible for creating next geneations of abusive boys and men. And they even made it simple for these boys by teaching similar things to girls - thinks like wear whatever you want, its all about freedom and equality etc.

If only they could have believed in Srila Prabhupada's words and taught their next generation about what Srila Prabhupada wanted and not what they want based on what they went through in this material world because of their Karma. Maya worked very well on them and on their next generation through them.

Do you think it is high time strong women should come forward and preach about chastity? Of course I am not denying that strong men should preach about being gentleman as well. Much needed.
Like • Reply • 4 • 15 December 2015 at 10:05 • Edited

Govinda Dasi I think the preaching work being done by Tulsi Gabbard right now, in the world today, 2015, (soon to be 2016) is what is most appropriate for this time and circumstance. Look at her youtube videos, her online photos of handing Srila Prabhupada's Bhagavad Gita As It Is (original edition) to the Prime Minister of India, and speaking truthfully on TV about the critical situation in the world, as we are on the tottering brink of untold disasters, is the most appropriate preaching work. And that quibbling over male/female issues is a ridiculous waste of time. The house is burning down and a handful of supposedly intelligent and well trained disciples of original Vedic truths, are quibbling over pink and blue buckets.

I also think that Srila Prabhupada is overjoyed to see that this one little girl from Hawaii, born and bred to do this job from childhood, (perhaps from past life, as she is a powerful yogini) is stepping forward in the world today and doing the job the men should be doing. (if they weren't so busy criticizing, nitpicking, tearing apart and scripturalizing) Thats what I think.
Like • Reply • 3 • 15 December 2015 at 20:56

Richard Oyntzen Govinda Dasi Dear Mataji, when i read Your comment i like to hear that Tulsi Gabbard Mataji is doing so nice preaching. Nevertheless also it comes to my mind that exceptions may be there but we are duty bound to Srila Prabhupada to implement that which He saw as the rule for a varnashrama society.
Like • Reply • 15 December 2015 at 22:11

Janesvara Joel Fairbank Govinda Dasi LOL! I was wondering when your amazing patience in this "discussion" would wane. It has been very entertaining reading all of these threads, though. It looks to me that most of these so-called "gentlemen" should follow their own "preaching" of varnasrama and visit a prostitute soon because all i see is complete duality of vision and lots of misplaced testosterone. Just like we have always seen in ISKCON for decades. Nevertheless, thanks! Mother Govinda smile emoticon.
Like • Reply • 3 • 15 December 2015 at 22:33

Govinda Dasi This issue is quite separate from and secondary to the primary mission of spreading Krishna consciousness all over the world. To get so wrapped up in "the way things should be, but are not" is a considerable detour from our real work. And to attribute this to Srila Prabhupada and his teachings is actually a gross misunderstanding of Srila Prabhupada, and what he came to this earth planet to do. And it is creating much needless conflict and useless chatter.
Like • Reply • 13 • 14 December 2015 at 15:42 • Edited

Hanuman Das What is our real mission? Inducing people to chant Hare Krishna?

Make people understand that Holly name is non different from Krishna?

Well, that same Krishna who is non-different from Holly name sent Srila Prabhupada, and Srila Prabhupada introduced rules that we can't behave like cats and dogs if we want to be devotees.

So, I don't see how preaching that we need to behave like human beings goes against primary mission of our movement.
Like • Reply • 2 • 15 December 2015 at 03:08 • Edited

Richard Oyntzen Govinda dasi: "...Satsvarupa: When Ramananda Raya brought Varnasrama up, Lord Caitanya said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.
Prabhupada: He did not say not possible. Iha bahya. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.
Satsvarupa: But don't we do that also?
Prabhupada: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Krsna consciousness in everything. Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took sannyasa. He rejected completely material. Niskincana. But we are not going to be niskincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the world. That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the whole society. Our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane.
Hari-Sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's practical preaching He only induced them to chant.
Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy. Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.
Prabhupada: Yes. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitaù. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...
Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, ksatriyas. There must be regular education. So we are stressing on the point of education. You educate certain section as brahmana, certain section as ksatriya, certain section as vaisya. In that education we don't discriminate because he's coming of a sudra family. Take education. Be qualified.
Hari-Sauri: But in our community as it is, we are training up as Vaisnavas...
Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.
Hari-Sauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.
Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava, is not so easy. If to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so many fall down? It is not easy.
Hari-Sauri: Varnasrama system is beneficial. Where will we introduce the varnasrama system, then?
Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members....Room conversation in Mayapura, February 14, 1977
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Like • Reply • 2 • 15 December 2015 at 06:21

Richard Oyntzen Notice the date of the conversation with Srila Prabhupada which is quoted above: 1977. As i mentioned previously, with time passing Srila Prabhupada was very much concerned to establish varnashrama-dharma.
Like • Reply • 2 • 15 December 2015 at 06:29

Govinda Dasi Yes, definitely Varna ashram must be established. But if you will read these conversations carefully, you will see that there is much lack of understanding what that actually means.
Like • Reply • 2 • 15 December 2015 at 21:00

Govinda Dasi Prabhupada WAS INDEED very much wanting to institute this varna ashram into society. And that will happen in time. But right now, there is little understanding of what it actually means, and we are on the very verge of a huge disaster that will shake the world and reduce the population to ashes, and "the preaching will be very good after the war." Right now, we still have the world wide web, the cities, enough food, etc. and we should be using these facilities to full preaching advantage, and not wasting time trying to bring back medieval Indial.
Like • Reply • 2 • 15 December 2015 at 21:03

Hanuman Das Respectful mataji, I agree with you that we need to improve our understanding of varna-asrama, therefore Bhakti Vikasa Swami made humble attempt to clear misunderstanding about varna-asrama, first half of the book "Women: Masters or Mothers" is all about varna-asrama.

Please read it, and if you have better grasp on the subject, write your own book, I will be glad to read it.
Like • Reply • 1 • 16 December 2015 at 14:16

Nikita Panzerata Govinda Dasi I respectfully disagree with you mataji, you say no one understands VAD. Unfortunately that is not true, they very much understand it but don't like it and don't want to follow it. Take for example women in VAD. That is the simplest of all as they have no varna and are a separate class. Their VAD duties are very clear and simple as explained in SB 7.11.25-29. It is very clear cut and simple but a segment of women rebel and reject it. Not because it is hard to understand but because they don't want to do it. And it is teh same for men regarding varnas. If you get a pay check you are a sudra, now that was easy. If you own a business and employ people and your business is not against other aspects of dharma then you are vaisya. If you collect taxes in order to protect people you are a kshatriya (most rare almost non-existent). Not that anyone in the military is a kshatriya. No they are not. Paid soldiers with guns are just sudra assistants of actual kshatriyas. And brahmanas they have 6 occupations yajana yaja, patana pAtana, dhana pratigraha. They perform sacrifice for themselves or others, they study Vedas and teach Vedas, they accept and give charity. A college professor who gets a pay check is not a brahmana. But anyone no matter what their position can perfect their life and go back to God head if they do their prescribed duty to please Krsna. Nothing hard about it. What is hard is that some people don't want to accept it. To learn more listen to the lectures of Bhakti Vidya Purna Swami they are found in various places. In conclusion anyone who has been a devotee for decades and still claims that dVAD is hard to understand really means they don't want to follow it.
Like • Reply • 1 • 18 December 2015 at 20:47

Govinda Dasi For example, look at the great preaching work being done by US congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard, who is a devotee from birth, raised in a good Krishna conscious family setting. Her parents are still together, they chant and read Bhagavad Gita, they are devoted to Srila Prabhupada's original teachings, and they don't waste time in useless excursions into male/female issues.

I have no doubt that Srila Prabhupada is immensely pleased with Tulsi's wonderful preaching messages that hundreds of thousands of people are seeing on youtube and on tv and in news articles. With her God given talents and abilities, Tulsi is glorifying Lord Krishna and His Bhagavad Gita, and Srila Prabhupada as well, for all the world to see. This is the kind of preaching work that Srila Prabhupada loves--wherein the message of Krishna, and the transcendental sound of His Holy Names, is going into the vacant hearts of the millions of jivas worldwide.

Preaching on a world wide scale, with whatever talents we have, is the real issue here. This is an example of what Srila Prabhupada taught--not trying to cram devotees into categories or niches of our own making. Krishna is in the heart of every living entity. He gives intelligence, abilities, and talents to each one of us.

Our path as taught by Srila Prabhupada is to DOVETAIL whatever talents and abilities we have, in the service of Krishna, and in the service of the mission of Lord Chaitanya.

That is the actual mood given by our Acharya Srila Prabhupada. We should try to stick to this mood, as it will benefit us more, and also benefit the world. And not get so tangled up in such temporary perceptions as being promoted by others who may become sidetracked by secondary and temporary cultural issues.
Like • Reply • 15 • 14 December 2015 at 15:51 • Edited

Dmitry Demetrius My obeisances, Mataji. Is Srila Prabhupada also glad that Ms. Gabbart supports pro-choice (abortions)?
Like • Reply • 4 • 15 December 2015 at 01:12

Hanuman Das What's next? Tulsi Gabbard family planning clinic? Jay.

Behave like cat and dog, and then kill the child, wonderful preaching.
Like • Reply • 4 • 15 December 2015 at 03:12

April Michelle White It's so ridiculous that you are trying to chastise such a senior devotee. Typical nonsense from such "devotee men" who have a need to put women in their places. I wish I knew more devotees like Govinda Dasi when I was practicing, maybe then I wouldn't have left.
Like • Reply • 4 • 15 December 2015 at 04:42

Richard Oyntzen April Michelle White Hanuman Prabhu is just reminding us of simply what Srila Prabhupada was trying to hammer into our dull brains, namely to stop supporting demoniac ways. Feel sorry that You obviously had bad experiences with devotees and decided to leave. It is too bad when such things happen, nevertheless that does not mean we should give up Srila Prabhupadas teachings as well, when we try to give up those bad behaviours. You know the saying about the baby and the bathing water.
Like • Reply • 1 • 15 December 2015 at 06:35

Remuna Dasi Mataji Govinda Dasi??? Tulasi Gabbard is doing tremendous preaching by supporting abortions?! Enough said....All glories to all what you have done previously for Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON, but at this moment I just can't accept your statements as something in line with Srila Prabhupada's teachings and with sastra. I' m sorry.
Like • Reply • 1 • 15 December 2015 at 17:44 • Edited

Govinda Dasi This accusation by her opponents and criticizers is simply put out there to confuse the issues. You should look deeper, and you should hear what she is actually saying on her many videos, that thousands upon THOUSANDS of souls are watching, not only in US, but all over the world. Only the jealous or the envious are throwing stones at her great work for Srila Prabhupada. Please don't become one of them without first looking at the preaching work reaching the world of mankind.
Like • Reply • 1 • 15 December 2015 at 21:10

Govinda Dasi Tulsi Gabbard is running on the democratic platform. She is not "supporting abortion" herself. She does not support much of what the party line supports, and that is very evident in her many talks, which I recommend you read or watch on youtube since you have so little understanding of her political position.
Like • Reply • 15 December 2015 at 21:10

Hanuman Das grin emoticon She should be at home cooking lunch. She even went to war, what vedic women wants to go to war? Hilarious.

First business of woman is to be chaste and shy, and to take care of children.

How can she be chaste if she talks all the time with other men?

"Not only was mother Sītā powerful, but any woman who follows in the footsteps of mother Sītā can also become similarly powerful. There are many instances of this in the history of Vedic literature. Whenever we find a description of ideal chaste women, mother Sītā is among them. Mandodarī, the wife of Rāvaṇa, was also very chaste. Similarly, Draupadī was one of five exalted chaste women. As a man must follow great personalities like Brahmā and Nārada, a woman must follow the path of such ideal women as Sītā, Mandodarī and Draupadī. By staying chaste and faithful to her husband, a woman enriches herself with supernatural power." (SB 9.10.27)
Like • Reply • 1 • 16 December 2015 at 03:05

April Michelle White You know, there probably won't be many other Vaisnavas in elected positions in the US, nice that you show your support, lol
Like • Reply • 16 December 2015 at 03:35

Hanuman Das Being elected changes nothing. Srila Prabhupada gave us the truth regarding feminism, it's only a question

* if we are willing to accept it and
* do we understand it.

As far as many devotees are concerned, answer to both of these questions is no. And that will have to change.
Like • Reply • 1 • 16 December 2015 at 03:54

Nikita Panzerata Govinda Dasi Her congressional record as found on wikipedia clearly states that she supports abortion and gay marriage. She is a politician and will say and do anything to get a vote. It is really sad that some devotees are so gullible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsi_Gabbard...
Like • Reply • 18 December 2015 at 20:52 • Edited

Govinda Dasi Srila Prabhupada often gave the example of a house afire. When the house is burning down, everyone grabs a bucket of water or a waterhose and tries to put out the fire. There is no consideration of gender, creed, or eligibility. Srila Prabhupada saw the world in this Kali age as a house ablaze. He sent in his disciples, his "fire brigades" to start dousing the blazing fires with the message of the Holy Names. In whatever ways they could do it, he encouraged them--all of them--male or female, young or old--according to their individual talents or abilities. His mood was, "Don't wait, there is little time, do something for Krishna NOW!"

That mood should still be there today. There is little time. Right now we have technology offering us great opportunities for world wide communication. Preaching work is possible on a scale unknown in previous eras. Better we should focus on the glories of Krishna, His pastimes and beauty, and His Holy Names, and attract the hearts of the jivas all over the world, rather than focus on some temporary conceptions or misconceptions of identity, whether male, female, gay, or whatever.

This secondary focus has also turned many souls away from the Krishna consciousness movement, as it is often seen as narrow minded or fanatical. This is in fact a disservice to our real work of spreading Krishna consciousness. If even one soul is turned away due to our misrepresentation of Srila Prabhupada's mood, it is our great misfortune.
Like • Reply • 14 • 14 December 2015 at 15:53 • Edited

Hanuman Das "Do something for Krishna now"? Like what, leave your old wife and get new young girlfriend.

Unless we are able to set ideal standard for people to follow we are just converting cats and dogs to vedic cats and dogs, sahajiyas were doing that throughout the centuries. Freely change sexual partners and chant Hare Krishna while doing that.

That's not going to work.

Real preaching means showing example that our philosophy is working. Otherwise we look funny, "We are not this body, but we divorcing and changing partners all the time". Sounds unconvincing.
Like • Reply • 3 • 15 December 2015 at 03:18

Richard Oyntzen Nevertheless because there is so much focus on emergency strategy here again Srila Prabhupadas longterme strategy: "...Satsvarupa: When Ramananda Raya brought Varnasrama up, Lord Caitanya said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.
Prabhupada: He did not say not possible. Iha bahya. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.
Satsvarupa: But don't we do that also?
Prabhupada: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Krsna consciousness in everything. Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took sannyasa. He rejected completely material. Niskincana. But we are not going to be niskincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the world. That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the whole society. Our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane.
Hari-Sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's practical preaching He only induced them to chant.
Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.
Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.
Prabhupada: Yes. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitaù. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...
Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, ksatriyas. There must be regular education. So we are stressing on the point of education. You educate certain section as brahmana, certain section as ksatriya, certain section as vaisya. In that education we don't discriminate because he's coming of a sudra family. Take education. Be qualified.
Hari-Sauri: But in our community as it is, we are training up as Vaisnavas...
Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.
Hari-Sauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.
Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava, is not so easy. If to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so many fall down? It is not easy.
Hari-Sauri: Varnasrama system is beneficial. Where will we introduce the varnasrama system, then?
Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members....Room conversation in Mayapura, February 14, 1977

Govinda Dasi Better that we should work together to put out the blazing fires of Kali Yuga by spreading the Holy Names! Not fighting amonst ourselves over whether our "water buckets" are pink or blue.

This would be much more pleasing to Srila Prabhupada, and a better use of our very short time in this world. Thank you for your kind attention,

Your servant and sister,
Govinda dasi
Like • Reply • 15 • 14 December 2015 at 15:34

Varsana Devi Dasi Adriana Costa Govinda Dasi prabhu, thank you for your great explanation! All glories to Srila Prabhupada! All glories to assembled devotees!
Like • Reply • 3 • 14 December 2015 at 17:19 • Edited

Hanuman Das Sai Baba followers also chant Hare Krishna and they are going to hell. Because they missed some other important philosophical points.
Like • Reply • 4 • 15 December 2015 at 03:19

Twosita Dasi Srila Prabhupad Krsna keep it simple or you will confuse the poor public ,.
Like • Reply • 15 December 2015 at 19:30

Jyotirmaya Dasa With all due respect to Govinda Mataji I would like to ask her if she DID read the book at all? That was my first question when reading her comments. Anyhow, the ideas in her comments are very clearly addressed and with all due respect to Senior Mataji- mostly dismissed in the book itself. The titles such as: "Srila Prabhupada slowly and carefully introduced Vedic culture", "Preach now, varnasrama-dharma now", Misunderstanding Srila Prabhupada's adjustments", "A case study: Yamuna Devi Dasi", "Calling Women "Prabhu"", "Gurudevis and Grandmothers"... to name only a few of them are practically self explanatory. It would be fair enough that protesters would at least read those sections if not the entire book in order to raise more specific, better arguments.
Like • Reply • 7 • 14 December 2015 at 16:44 • Edited

Govinda Dasi No, Jyotirmaya Prabhu, I did not read the entire book. I thumbed through it and read a number of the chapters. It was lying on the table at a lady attorney devotee's home, and since I was traveling, I had no time to fully read the entire book. I did however, read the chapter on the "calling women Prabhu." That chapter alone was so inaccurate that I lost interest in reading the entire book. Since Harisauri's statement was given there , and he was NOT AROUND WHEN SRILA PRABHUPADA ACCEPTED THE NAME "SRILA PRABHUPADA" and told us all to call one another "Prabhu" I dismissed the book as being full of inaccuracies. (perhaps I will find a copy and read through it at some point, but it just seemed so entirely irrelevant to the world of preaching work today, like a massive distraction from reality)
Like • Reply • 12 • 14 December 2015 at 17:22

Hanuman Das Srila Prabhupada's teachings in recorded form tell us that men should call other women "mother" or mataji.

Could we have a choice at least between "prabhu" and "mataji", I prefer "mataji" over prabhu.
Like • Reply • 3 • 15 December 2015 at 03:27 Richard Oyntzen Govinda dasi: "Srila Prabhupada's Lecture on Srimad Bhagavatam 1.16.10, January 7, 1974 in Los Angeles:

"So guru teaches him to remain brahmacari, naisthika-brahmacari. Just like my Guru Maharaja, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada. He was brahmacari. He was brahmacari, strict brahmacari, ideal personality. So that is recommended for everyone. Up to twenty-five years' age, nobody should have any connection with woman. That is brahmacari. Strictly. That brahmacari rules and regulation are there in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, that he would go door to door for collecting alms for his spiritual master, and address every woman as mother, from the very beginning. From five years old, if a child is trained to call all woman as "Mother," naturally his culture is different. Because he has learned to call all woman as "Mother." He has no other idea. A small child, any woman comes before him, he knows "(S)He is my mother." So this was the practice. That is not only religiously, but morally, it is so good, to look upon all woman as mother. That is the system still in India, any unknown woman who has no introduction with you, (s)he is addressed "Mataji." Address her. She may be just like daughter or granddaughter, but one would address, as a respect to the woman, as "Mother, Mataji." This is Indian system. Now some rascals have introduced "Bhaginiji, sister." But that is not shastric. In the sastra, all the woman, except one's wife, should be addressed as "Mother."
Like • Reply • 2 • 15 December 2015 at 07:03

Richard Oyntzen Srila Prabhupada's Lecture on Bhagavad-gita 4.14, August 6, 1974, Vrindavan

Prabhupada: Yes. If I see woman as mother, she must see me as son. That's all. That is the system. The brahmacari, the sannyasi go to beg alms from door to door. "Mother, give me some bhiksa, alms." And it is the duty of the grhastha to treat brahmacari and sannyasi as their son. As they maintain their children with food, shelter, cloth, similarly the brahmacaris and sannyasis, they are dependent on the society. They should be treated as the sons of the society. And they must supply their necessities, bare necessities. A sannyasi, brahmacari, does not want more than what they need. They should not collect more than what they need. Bhiksa nirvahana. Not collect more and enjoy at others' cost. No. That is not the business of sannyasi. They can collect so much as they need. That's all. Devotee: When you address a woman, do you... Prabhupada: Hm? Devotee: When you address a woman do you use the word "Mataji"? Is that the right, proper word for her? Prabhupada: Mataji. Yes, very good. "Mother." All right. Chant. (end)
Like • Reply • 2 • 15 December 2015 at 07:03

Nikita Panzerata Govinda Dasi I don't know what to say. You negatively comment on a book that you have only skimmed through. And you put down a senior mataji who actually studied the book deeply and gave a favorable review. What am I supposed to think about such behavior. This is hardly befitting a senior disciple of Srila Prabhupada. And more incredibly 12 women think this is great.
Like • Reply • 18 December 2015 at 20:58

Govinda Dasi The fact is that Srila Prabhupada accepted the name Srila Prabhupada in Boston of 1968. I was his secretary and servant, and both my husband and I were present, when he told everyone of us (male and female) to address one another as "Prabhu" because he is the "Prabhupada" which mean Great Master at whose lotus feet all Prabhus take shelter. And we are all the "Prabhus" taking shelter at his lotus feet. The addressing of one another as "Prabhu" had NOTHING to do with male or female, it had to do with our relationship to him, as the "PRabhupada." Therefore you will find that most senior devotees of that era still address one another as "prabhu" based on his instruction. The mataji thing came later. And Harisauri came later. So he doesnt even remember why that happened or IF it happened. The mere fact that Maharaja chose to insert such an inaccuracy in his book turned most of the early Prabhupada disciples away, myself included. And BTW, I actually like and respect Bhakti Vikas Swami very much. He was an old friend many years ago in India, when he traveled as a sadhu, and I also traveled in India to many pilgrimmage sites. I am sorry that he has chosen to focus so much on these issues as I think he can do more to spread Lord Chaitanya's movement than by focusing on women and temporary cultural issues. He is a great soul and I have no disregard for him, but think this is an unfortunate distraction, and I have expressed that to him as well.
Like • Reply • 12 • 14 December 2015 at 17:29

Saci Amy Martin Bravo! Jaya Srila Prabhupada!
Like • Reply • 14 December 2015 at 17:33

Hari Bhakti Dasi Thank you so much Govinda dasi , you are wonderful preacher and devotee.Yes we are all spirit souls part and parcels of Krishna.It is sad to see so many men devotees who want to dominate and control (as they are in the man,s body .... But this has nothing to do wiht Krishna consciousness ).And it is fact as you already said that many men left their wives and showed weakness in their Krsna aonscious
Like • Reply • 5 • 15 December 2015 at 00:10

Hari Bhakti Dasi Conscious practice
Like • Reply • 15 December 2015 at 00:10

Hari Bhakti Dasi Yes our first business is being mothers and caring for children but we as women if we are empowered can spread Bhakti yoga preaching and Hare Krsna mantra ( with the help of men and their guidance which would be ideal
Like • Reply • 1 • 15 December 2015 at 00:18

Hanuman Das The fact that "Hari Sauri came later" doesn't make his claim invalid.

I mean, it the beginning, devotees were offering their jeans to Jaganath, but later proper standards were introduced.

So, from historical point of view, I always take what happened later as closer to what Srila Prabhupada really wanted.

In the beginning, Srila Prabhupada was cooking alone for the hippies and washing pots by himself, that is not proper standard, but it took some time for devotees to figure that out.

So if somebody today would say, "Guru should cook for me and wash my dishes because Prabhupada was doing that in the beginning", that is not valid argument.
Like • Reply • 3 • 15 December 2015 at 03:33

Richard Oyntzen Hanuman Das Very good points Prabhu.
Like • Reply • 15 December 2015 at 07:07

Richard Oyntzen Govinda dasi Dear Mataji, please do not take offense that i as a junior dare to make some objections. For the sake of public discussions i feel the need to express my wonder that You consider aspects of sanatana-dharma (eternal-dharma) as "temporary cultural issues". If i am wrong please excuse my impudency to speak up.
Like • Reply • 1 • 15 December 2015 at 07:11

Śyāmānanda Dāsa The woman who does not like to be called as "Mataji", doesn't know what she is missing.
Like • Reply • 1 • 15 December 2015 at 10:13

Damana Krishna ISKCON moved away from hippy years. In fact most of 2nd generation ISKCON devotees have no connection neither taste for hippy life. We came because of sacred books.
Like • Reply • 3 • 15 December 2015 at 13:20

Hanuman Das Indian movies and definitely absolute truth and can serve as sastric pramana.
Like • Reply • 16 December 2015 at 13:35

Lola Devi Hanuman Das Indian movies?
Like • Reply • 16 December 2015 at 16:23

Lola Devi Richard Oyntzen varnasrama is followed by different vaisnava societies in differnt parts of India differently. There are variagations in the details, which can have cultural origins.
Like • Reply • 16 December 2015 at 16:38

Remuna Dasi So, respectful mataji Govinda Dasi...Here we have a number of quotes from Srila Prabhupada's lectures where he is very clear and direct about how women should be adressed. And we have one case from your own memory. Well, somehow I choose to see Srila Prabhupada in the form of his books and lectures which are meant to guide generations and generations of devotees.
Like • Reply • 6 • 14 December 2015 at 19:58 • Edited

Braja Sorensen The history of iSKCON means nothing to you then? This is a very neophyte viewpoint: "I shall listen only to God and guru." You're obviously very young. I wish you well when you grow up.'
Like • Reply • 2 • 16 December 2015 at 06:51

Vrinda Dasi Braja Sorensen ,Your putting down others is very unattractive. Krsna gave you some little intelligence, but being so puffed-up is ugly quality. Krsna doesn't like proud devotees. He can take in a moment that little intelligence He mercifully gave to you. When He sensed little pride in Srimati Radharani , He immediately dissapeared from Her sight. You think it is neophyte to listen to guru and Krsna? Memories of Srila Prabhupada by Govinda Mataji are valuable and she is a great Vaisnavi. But Mataj think that because she was there with SPa in early days, that she knew what SP's goals are. He left his goals and mission and teaching in his books and recorded lectures for next 10,000 years.
Like • Reply • 2 • 16 December 2015 at 16:18 • Edited

Nikita Panzerata Braja Sorensen I find your condescending tone and insulting words very distasteful.
Like • Reply • 18 December 2015 at 21:02

Remuna Dasi My argument is that Srila Prabhupada's books and lectures are more important than some remembrances which are not written.
Like • Reply • 2 • 14 December 2015 at 19:48

Lola Devi You are correct that Srila Prabhupada's books are the most important. You can use the remembrances of early devotees (especially if many say the same thing) or not, as secondary sources.
Like • Reply • 14 December 2015 at 20:33

Lola Devi they are written, but purports to sastra, take precedence
Like • Reply • 14 December 2015 at 21:25

Mia Malyahari-kunda Dasi Mother Phalini is an amazing soul. I am greatly indebted to her and other likeminded senior mothers and grand mothers of ISKON that are showing by practical example that Krishna consciousness does not stand in opposition to a stable family life, but rather is a help to maintain ones mind peacefully while chanting Hare Krishna and spreading the holy name to others. It seems that there is a misconception among some that the persuance of varnasrama-dharma stands in opposition to sankirtan? The reality is that it is just the opposite. A few points from Srila Prabhupada that illuminate this from February 14, 1977, Māyāpura (room conversation):

"Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy. "

So, it makes the way easier, not more difficult. That is a very nice thing to be aware of, hence the need for Maharaja's book that deal with one very important aspect of VD.

Another point from Srila Prabhupada (same conversation as above): "varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do".

How will people take ISKCON seriosly if they see that there is a dissonance between what we preach, what is written in Srila Prabhupada's books and the way we practice the philosophy? As HH Bhakti Vikasa Swami points out in the book, it is not expected that we can change over night, and many devotees find themselves in situations were it may not even be possible to adjust to traditional gender roles inside marriage (he gives the example of someone whose spouse left them against their wish and similar situations) but that does not mean that the knowledge of stri-dharma is irrelevant or that we should just give up on the idea of ever living by it.

More knowledge is needed and this book is one of very few on the subject. When devotees will be better educated on this important topic and start to live by the principles of varnasrama dharma which is the eternal scientific social system established by Lord Krishna Himself , we will be able to set a positive example and raise peaceful children. So we have to start from somewhere and a good start is by not sifting away Srila Prabhupada's instructions on this matter, but to take the instructions seriously and try to as far as possible abide by them.
Like • Reply • 8 • 14 December 2015 at 20:05

Lola Devi I like very much that Maharaj tells how important it is for men to be qualified. Women can bloom when they are treated properly
Like • Reply • 6 • 14 December 2015 at 21:03

Francis Kress In other Gaudiya Vaishnava institutions many devotees respectful call the female disciples Didi or sister. In the early 70s the word Mataji was also used but as Govinda Dasi pointed out there were sannyasis encouraging devotees to be disrespectful to women in general and it totally shocked me in 1975 how these unhealthy aversion to women going on among some of the brahmacaris and Sannyasis. Prabhupada loved all his female disciples and told the men to treat them as his daughters. But this generally didn't happen. The real solution is to devotees trained up to be responsible Grhasthas and set a good example for second and third generation of devotees. women want to feel secure and protected but the main society doesn't really do that and most have find a career to support the children from the broken marriages. We don't have the family and extended families like they do in India to care for women . we need to develop our culture and families in doing this . women should be able to lead Kirtan or give class as well. we aren't our bodies and one who is a woman in this life may not be one in the next life and that applies to men as well.
we do need to preach the message of Lord Chaitanya and show kindness , respect and compassion to ones Godsisters and Godbrothers as well as all Vaishnavis and Vaishnavas.
Hare Krsna.
Like • Reply • 1 • 14 December 2015 at 21:37 • Edited

Remuna Dasi "At the present moment, they have invented the word bahinaji, "sister".No, in the Vedic culture,there is no such thing as "sister". "Mother", that is Vedic culture.Because mother is always respected, so any woman if she is called "Mother..."
Srimad Bhagavatam 1.8.24- Mayapura,October4, 1974
Like • Reply • 1 • 15 December 2015 at 18:20

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